A German pilot wilfully flew low and shot at my mother, aunt and uncle, all of whom were obviously children, in Red Lion Lane when they were walking with my grandfather who was home on leave in naval uniform.
He missed fortunately otherwise I wouldn't be here but for me that illustrates that at the time there was a stark choice of "us" or "them" and moral judgements made with the benefit of hindsight should bear that in mind.
Just to throw in a tid bit of info, there are currently only two lancasters that can still fly, one in England & one in Canada. Hamilton actually as i was at the air show down there not too long ago.
There are lots of good books on Bomber command which give balanced views of the rights and wrongs. The best i have read is Bomber boys by Patrick Bishop, It manages to combine individual accounts with military facts. My Grandad managed to complete 50 missions as a Flight engineer in a Lancaster but never talked about it after the War. I wish i had been able to ask him more about it before he died.
Its really good that they finally have the recognition they deserved as they played a key role in shortening the War and keeping morale of the nation up between Dunkirk and D Day.
Patrick Bishop featured in last night's programme.
@SE7toSG3 - Spent the weekend up in Lincs for the Waddington airshow, that's well worth a visit.
My sister is church warden in Waddington........I've spent many times there....dozens of family Christmases since around 1960. I was there two weeks ago. I often pop over to Woodhall Spa. Lovely place and was the home of the Dam Busters....steeped in Bomber Command history. The whole area is in fact. A visit to the RAF memorial there and a pint in the bar of the Petwood Hotel (named after the squadron stationed in the hotel during the war) is a must. Lincsaddick lives some distance from the Lincoln (RAF) area...he's in Grimsby.
said to my wife many times when we are in Thailand i seem to have mega weird dreams. Maybe its the air con , or change of diet or the Sigha beer! As a light sleeper i wake up alot and tend to remember a good few---other nights was weird with a capital W. I was ground crew telling these people that my plane would fly --it was a Baufighter. Had to look it up on the WWW as in the real World i wasnt sure it existed! it does and there is loads on the Net about em. Why it appeared in a dream of mine God knows.
Dad was ground crew in the middle east during the fight with the Africa Corp. He was seconded to RAAF and the Yougoslave Air Force, have a pic of him sitting on a bombers wing i think its a Wellington bomber.
Just to throw in a tid bit of info, there are currently only two lancasters that can still fly, one in England & one in Canada. Hamilton actually as i was at the air show down there not too long ago.
Good shout Scrappy, however there are 2-3 around the world that are in various states of renovation. So maybe in 5-10 years we may see more in the air.
If anyone is interested in such things, I can highly recommend Samurai by Saburo Sakai. Japans gretaest fighter pilot ace, the account of his return from Guadacanal after being badly shot is just incredible. His style is excellent and very non judgemental and shows that the other side(s) were just doing the same as any pilot was in WW2. I read his own translation of his own story of the same name, though a friend has a new copy written by Martin Caidin from Sakai's own interview answers and memoirs.
Len that sounds like it could have been the SE London Focke Wolf raid in 1943, they flew in low and aimed at civilians schools and caught the civil defences napping, each aircraft carried a single 1000kg bomb, one landed on the parade square of the Naval College, I wrote about it in "A Wander Through Wartime London" a couple of years ago, there was an eye witness report of seeing the pilot laughing as he shot up pedestrians flying at roof height up the Trafalgar Road, Steve Hunnisett who sometimes posts on here is the local Blitz guru for the area so should know a little more
The raid was on January 20th 1943...my birthday as a matter of fact, though I was of course born 5 years later. I went to Sandhurst Road School in Catford as from September 1953....during the raid a Focke Wolf piloted by Hauptmann Heinz Schumann bombed and machine gunned the school killing 38 children and 6 teachers. He was from Jagdgessschwader 2 squadron and later died in action on November 8th the same year. As you can imagine,there were no tears shed for him in SE6 I can tell you. 7000 mourners attended a mass funeral for the children and teachers in Hither Green Cemetry. I knew of this event ever since I was knee high to a grasshopper and the locals would discuss it from time to time...I went to school with some children whose elder brothers and sisters died in the raid.
just reading a book called In for a Penny about Canadians who flew with bomber command.
the Canadian Museum dedicated to their contribution to Bomber Command is in Nanton, Alberta - not far from where I live now ,when my son is old enough he'll be going there with me for a visit - it has it's own non-flying Lancaster which you can see as you drive through the town
Just to throw in a tid bit of info, there are currently only two lancasters that can still fly, one in England & one in Canada. Hamilton actually as i was at the air show down there not too long ago.
I was reading an article in a mag supplement about the one in Canada last week. It costs approx £100 to join their society and another £1500 to get a one hour flight in the Lanc.
Just to throw in a tid bit of info, there are currently only two lancasters that can still fly, one in England & one in Canada. Hamilton actually as i was at the air show down there not too long ago.
I was reading an article in a mag supplement about the one in Canada last week. It costs approx £100 to join their society and another £1500 to get a one hour flight in the Lanc.
Len that sounds like it could have been the SE London Focke Wolf raid in 1943, they flew in low and aimed at civilians schools and caught the civil defences napping, each aircraft carried a single 1000kg bomb, one landed on the parade square of the Naval College, I wrote about it in "A Wander Through Wartime London" a couple of years ago, there was an eye witness report of seeing the pilot laughing as he shot up pedestrians flying at roof height up the Trafalgar Road, Steve Hunnisett who sometimes posts on here is the local Blitz guru for the area so should know a little more
The raid was on January 20th 1943...my birthday as a matter of fact, though I was of course born 5 years later. I went to Sandhurst Road School in Catford as from September 1953....during the raid a Focke Wolf piloted by Hauptmann Heinz Schumann bombed and machine gunned the school killing 31 children and 6 teachers. He was from Jagdgessschwader 2 squadron and later died in action on November 8th the same year. As you can imagine,there were no tears shed for him in SE6 I can tell you. 7000 mourners attended a mass funeral for the children and teachers in Hither Green Cemetry. I knew of this event ever since I was knee high to a grasshopper and the locals would discuss it from time to time...I went to school with some children whose elder brothers and sisters died in the raid.
Think this puts the "them" and "us" remark in perspective but nevertheless if you are say in your 20s you may not value the sacrifices people made as much as those of an older generation .The above was an emotive story in my own past not to mention the machine gunning of kids in the playground at plassey road school just down the road in a similar raid .I expect some would say that the destruction of dresden was equally heinous ,guess it was but it was war ....rather it was them than us and yes they did start it !
Lincs your right in among the airfields up there arent you, we have just bought an investment property to be used as a bit of a family retreat in an old coaching inn in Folkingham, do you know the area, I intend spending some weekends exploring a few airfields over the summmer, its not far from Stamford apparently, any suggestions?
I'm at the other end of the county, near to Grimsby, right on the Humber. Folkingham is in the Spalding/Sleaford/Stamford/Grantham quadrant, south near the Notts/Lincs/Leics/Cambs borders, the flatter part of the county, the English praries. Stamford especially is a lovely town built with the butterscotch limestone which is so similar to Cotswold stone. Burleigh house is in Stamford and is worth a look. Stamford is a nice town to walk around, not 'much' there, just like going back to the 1930s. Grantham is a commuter town for London. The train journey is not a lot longer than from (say) Maidstone or Southend. Grantham is also Thatchertown, Grocerville, it's OK. The site of Grimsby air force base has been built on, industrial units and a big pub. All around here one can still see the old runways and concrete 'stands'. The farmers use them as roads or storage platforms for hay and grain. Many of the old concrete placements and bunkers are just too big and heavy to be economically blown up. The most poignant base near me is at Binbrook, home to the RAAF (Australian). Binbrook per force strength had the highest casualty rate of any heavy bomber airbase during the war. All those young Aussies trained in the clear southern air and then ordered to fly in the murk and dark .. so sad. You'll enjoy your 'family rest time in Lincolnshire'. It's a nice county and full of nice people, with a lot of geographical differences, coast, wolds, praries and industry.
Thanks Lincs and BDL for the tips looking forward to exploring it all a lot more over the summer and all the Christmas times we will spend there, also to Soundasa£ for confirming the January 43 raid, I have been to the airfield Jasta 2 flew from in Grevillers on the Somme a lot of the out buildings and hangers are still there in the shadow of a Great War cemetery.
My nana panicked and fell from a tree near the Tigers Head junction cutting her leg as one of them flew over and she can still remember the pilots face, her mates thought she had been shot! The story of Sandhurst Road School puts it in perspective however and whilst the world moves on we should never forget.
We simply did it bigger and bettter than they did, don't for one moment think that they would have done it to us on a grand scale had they have had the capability, war is a bloody awful thing, which sadly involves people getting killed. More often than not the side who kills most wins.........and anyway (although this is a somewhat over used comment).......... "they started it".
Don't really see the war in terms of "us" and "them", but I fully Respect the sacrifice those on the allied side made.
well it was a war ..kill or be killed ,we owe our freedom to people like those guys ,i for one will never forget it
Please don't twist my words to try and score points over such an important subject.
Watched a fascinating programme the other week About The Lancaster with Ewan McGregor and his commercail Pilot brother...the grizzly old tail gunners stories actually bought a tear to my eye. They deserve the highest praise....I wonder how many people today would have the courage and moral fibre?
I am not in any way attempting or intending to decry or diminish the contribution of so many brave men and women but I have also come to the conclusion that most of them were ordinary blokes doing extraordinary things, and that if circumstances dictated it those extraordinary feats would be repeated.
Comments
I was there two weeks ago.
I often pop over to Woodhall Spa.
Lovely place and was the home of the Dam Busters....steeped in Bomber Command history.
The whole area is in fact.
A visit to the RAF memorial there and a pint in the bar of the Petwood Hotel (named after the squadron stationed in the hotel during the war) is a must.
Lincsaddick lives some distance from the Lincoln (RAF) area...he's in Grimsby.
Dad was ground crew in the middle east during the fight with the Africa Corp. He was seconded to RAAF and the Yougoslave Air Force, have a pic of him sitting on a bombers wing i think its a Wellington bomber.
Japans gretaest fighter pilot ace, the account of his return from Guadacanal after being badly shot is just incredible.
His style is excellent and very non judgemental and shows that the other side(s) were just doing the same as any pilot was in WW2.
I read his own translation of his own story of the same name, though a friend has a new copy written by Martin Caidin from Sakai's own interview answers and memoirs.
I went to Sandhurst Road School in Catford as from September 1953....during the raid a Focke Wolf piloted by Hauptmann Heinz Schumann bombed and machine gunned the school killing 38 children and 6 teachers.
He was from Jagdgessschwader 2 squadron and later died in action on November 8th the same year. As you can imagine,there were no tears shed for him in SE6 I can tell you.
7000 mourners attended a mass funeral for the children and teachers in Hither Green Cemetry.
I knew of this event ever since I was knee high to a grasshopper and the locals would discuss it from time to time...I went to school with some children whose elder brothers and sisters died in the raid.
http://www.bombercommandmuseum.ca/
http://www.bombercommandmuseum.ca/lancs.html
I'm at the other end of the county, near to Grimsby, right on the Humber. Folkingham is in the Spalding/Sleaford/Stamford/Grantham quadrant, south near the Notts/Lincs/Leics/Cambs borders, the flatter part of the county, the English praries. Stamford especially is a lovely town built with the butterscotch limestone which is so similar to Cotswold stone. Burleigh house is in Stamford and is worth a look. Stamford is a nice town to walk around, not 'much' there, just like going back to the 1930s. Grantham is a commuter town for London. The train journey is not a lot longer than from (say) Maidstone or Southend. Grantham is also Thatchertown, Grocerville, it's OK.
The site of Grimsby air force base has been built on, industrial units and a big pub. All around here one can still see the old runways and concrete 'stands'. The farmers use them as roads or storage platforms for hay and grain. Many of the old concrete placements and bunkers are just too big and heavy to be economically blown up. The most poignant base near me is at Binbrook, home to the RAAF (Australian). Binbrook per force strength had the highest casualty rate of any heavy bomber airbase during the war. All those young Aussies trained in the clear southern air and then ordered to fly in the murk and dark .. so sad.
You'll enjoy your 'family rest time in Lincolnshire'. It's a nice county and full of nice people, with a lot of geographical differences, coast, wolds, praries and industry.
My nana panicked and fell from a tree near the Tigers Head junction cutting her leg as one of them flew over and she can still remember the pilots face, her mates thought she had been shot! The story of Sandhurst Road School puts it in perspective however and whilst the world moves on we should never forget.
I am not in any way attempting or intending to decry or diminish the contribution of so many brave men and women but I have also come to the conclusion that most of them were ordinary blokes doing extraordinary things, and that if circumstances dictated it those extraordinary feats would be repeated.
I pray to God they won't