The truth is we didn't have many black players - Leroy Ambrose can be added to the short list. In teh 70s, black players were quite rare though - I remember Clyde Best at West Ham standing out because there were so few.
I think that if you take our club as an example, we have moved in leaps and strides from when I first started supporting them. In the 70's and 80's it was a common occurance to hear racist comments from the crowd. I nearly packed in going it got so bad - now if you look at the club we have a black manager- black coach and a good number of black players. You don't hear any racist comments. This has been achieved partly by a changing society but also the efforts of the club and its fans and I doubt we would have got there if we shrugged our shoulders and said it wasn't possible. The next challenge for the club, I think is to get more black supporters in the ground. Would be interesting to hear Airman's views on that challenge. Surely we are in the best position we have ever been to attract interest from all communities.
I wish this was true, but it was only a few seasons back that the 2 blokes behind me spent a whole game calling Lisbie a monkey and a chimp
I think that if you take our club as an example, we have moved in leaps and strides from when I first started supporting them. In the 70's and 80's it was a common occurance to hear racist comments from the crowd. I nearly packed in going it got so bad - now if you look at the club we have a black manager- black coach and a good number of black players. You don't hear any racist comments. This has been achieved partly by a changing society but also the efforts of the club and its fans and I doubt we would have got there if we shrugged our shoulders and said it wasn't possible. The next challenge for the club, I think is to get more black supporters in the ground. Would be interesting to hear Airman's views on that challenge. Surely we are in the best position we have ever been to attract interest from all communities.
I definately saw an increase in different ethnicities and races last season muttley, as the season went on. There was quite a few on what looked like school or football club gatherings but there were families as well, I manged to tempt one of my best friends, a black girl to the Stevenage game and she'd only ever been to arsenal before but she noticed there was a fair mixture outside the valley, she had a great time and has already stated she wants to come back for more next season and I quote "wants to see us batter the palace".
I think that if you take our club as an example, we have moved in leaps and strides from when I first started supporting them. In the 70's and 80's it was a common occurance to hear racist comments from the crowd. I nearly packed in going it got so bad - now if you look at the club we have a black manager- black coach and a good number of black players. You don't hear any racist comments. This has been achieved partly by a changing society but also the efforts of the club and its fans and I doubt we would have got there if we shrugged our shoulders and said it wasn't possible. The next challenge for the club, I think is to get more black supporters in the ground. Would be interesting to hear Airman's views on that challenge. Surely we are in the best position we have ever been to attract interest from all communities.
I definately saw an increase in different ethnicities and races last season muttley, as the season went on. There was quite a few on what looked like school or football club gatherings but there were families as well, I manged to tempt one of my best friends, a black girl to the Stevenage game and she'd only ever been to arsenal before but she noticed there was a fair mixture outside the valley, she had a great time and has already stated she wants to come back for more next season and I quote "wants to see us batter the palace".
But they are now in an extremely rare minority - surprised and disapointed they were not challenged though -
I also agree the club could do something, but then run the risk of looking a bit desperate if they try to exclusively gain fans of specific races, the thing is the club could do some work within Southwark and Lewisham, maybe even Lambeth Boroughs, areas which you would think are Millwall strongholds, but Particularly in areas of Southwark I do not see anything about them there, perhaps the club could take the work they did in Kent, Bexley, Greenwich and Bromley and apply it.
Maybe run some adverts in the voice - get out into the black local community. Maybe the club is doing it already. I agree the numbers are increasing but I think more can be done.
Why was he praising a team that is 100% for Asians and openly excludes blacks and whites ?
Not sure if I started a white only team excluding blacks and Asians it would last long.
Everton managed it for a good few decades.
Millwall and Leeds were similar too.
Yeah. We were. Kept blacks out of the team for decades.
Phil Walker & Trevor Lee were white players dubbed up to be black just to trick people, clearly they didn't trick you.
Thats two, how many more can you mention?
Think Millwall had black players before Charlton did, but there was a long period when you didn't any at all.
Now you're saying we openly excluded black players for decades?
Didn't say Millwall "openly excluded black players for decades", from what I remember seeing them In 80s you didn't have many.
guess I better keep quiet now you mentioned 5 black players.
You made a comment about Millwall in reference to a comment about openly excluding black players. There weren't many black players in general throughout the 80's (my memory can only remember the very end of the 80's), so not sure what you're point is.
If you're going into the 90's there have been a few, recently there have been many including several who have been voted player of the season!
Didn't see the show and havn't read the previous posts as am only taking a few mins smoke break. Here's my 2 pence worth.
It's such a bloody dumb question in the first place. Maybe a question like "Are there more racist elements or people involved in football than other sports / industries" If the question is valid, one must ask "what is football"? I am a lifelong supporter so in this case i must be considered as a part of football and I absolutely deplore racism of any kind.
why should any Club go out of its way to attract black, brown, yellow or purple people?
surely you just treat everyone the same.
everyone knows about football, anyone can go along if they want. there are not signs up saying certain ethnics may not be let in. do you honestly think that blacks/asians etc do not go to watch football for fear of racism? maybe black people and Asians do not want to go to watch football. some obviously do, maybe it is a cultural thing. blacks especially are heavily committed to the church at weekends, the evidence of this is when their children play football but the parents quite often do not attend as they are either at church or doing an activity connected with it.
Maybe run some adverts in the voice - get out into the black local community. Maybe the club is doing it already. I agree the numbers are increasing but I think more can be done.
I know Charlton get coverage in the voice as freelance Journalist Natasha Henry often goes to The Valley (despite being a gooner) and has close links with Jason Euell, she often tweets about us, shes going to the Barnet game, does articles on her blog as well as the voice, so that could be a good link to have.
Maybe run some adverts in the voice - get out into the black local community. Maybe the club is doing it already. I agree the numbers are increasing but I think more can be done.
I dont think things like what you suggest warrant or require such action.
People of all colours and creed in the local area know what that big red stadium in SE7 is and those interested would already come. Those not interested will likely support other teams or just have no interest in going to football at all.
Id find it patronising if I were being targetted....and The Voice?!!! How many black folk do you know read that?!!
We should aim to attract new support without colour in mind as we always have done by advertising in the local press etc. Suggesting we start targetting specific groups of people based on ridiculous criteria such as skin colour as some kind of social engineering drive would make me really uncomfortable and not a route Id hope we or any other club would go down.
Charlton advertise to their community which is made up of a wide range of people including local black people so I dont see why we need to focus on specific targets.
maybe some black people think they will be racially abused if they go - this would have been true not so very long ago. You do have to get a message out there that this is no longer the case. Sorry if you think that deosn't need to happen but maybe you haven't been racially abused before - not something you would want to pay good money to have happen to you!
The Voice don't help themselves when they send that Ray Essanoah (spelt something like that) along to Millwall & then reports that Millwall fans around him were chanting sieg heil when it was clearly Brighton fans chanting seagulls!!
Some of the most ridiculous & made up journalism ever, but the damage is already done, no matter if people bothered to read the apology from The Sun, the journalist and the multiple letters from Millwall & Brighton fans correcting him.
I think apologies by the press should be equally prominent to the original story - so if the story took up the whole of the front page- so should teh apogy if it was untrue.
If Carlisle had any balls he would go to Italy,Spain,Poland or Serbia and make this programme.
It baffles me that the problem is here??? Most clubs promote the anti-racism campaign. And racism on 99% of British terraces is a thing frowned-upon in this day and age.
The real problem is not in England, we have moved on.. ok we are not quite there yet but we are( out of the majoirty of European leagues) lightyears ahead of the rest in terms of putting an end to racism in football.
Also, of course we are biased , but can we give our own club a pat on the back here? Resources aside, we have done more work to battle racism in the game than any other club over the past 15-20 years.
maybe some black people think they will be racially abused if they go - this would have been true not so very long ago. You do have to get a message out there that this is no longer the case. Sorry if you think that deosn't need to happen but maybe you haven't been racially abused before - not something you would want to pay good money to have happen to you!
I would imagine anyone who has read a newspaper, watched football on tv, listened to a radio or tv programme would probably have a grasp that in this country racist abuse doesnt get tolerated by clubs nowdays and rightly so.
The kevin lisbie threads give an insight that most fans dont put up with it either any more and will either have a word or report it.
Surely having Chris Powell as a manager of our club should tell people that the likelihood of being racially abused at a Charlton game is the same as in other walks of life when you have a mass collection of people gathering in one place.
Of course theyll always be racial abuse at football as you get idiots everywhere....but then you can get racially abused on the train, in a pub on a plane etc but you dont see London Underground taking out adverts in The Voice (sorry but that still makes me lol) saying please continue to use our tube service as it's been 4 days since our last racial abuse incident for example.
If we were having this debate 30, 20 or even 10 years ago then I would be wholehartedly agreeing with you Muttley.
But I just find it a partonising and misguided idea now sorry. My nephew is not 100% white and I would never have even given it a second thought about taken him to Charlton, Millwall, Leeds or anywhere now for fear of him being abused for his ethnic make up nowdays. (He doesnt read the Voice by the way) ;-).
Why was he praising a team that is 100% for Asians and openly excludes blacks and whites ?
Not sure if I started a white only team excluding blacks and Asians it would last long.
Everton managed it for a good few decades.
Millwall and Leeds were similar too.
Leeds had Albert Johannsen, a mixed race South African in their side for quite a few years in the early 1960s. He was due to play at Charlton in the Don Revie promotion to the First Division side but was injured. He was replaced at outside left by an unknown youngster named Terry Cooper who went on to win quite a few England caps.
The Kevin Lisbie thread could equally tell somebody else that there is still a problem. Yes a problem that the majority of fans don't tolerate, but a problem all the same. If I was black and was contemplating taking my children to a game/s- that thread wouldn't necessarily encourage me. That illustrates how we might percieve things differently because we don't put ourselves in the shoes of the other person.
The Voice don't help themselves when they send that Ray Essanoah (spelt something like that) along to Millwall & then reports that Millwall fans around him were chanting sieg heil when it was clearly Brighton fans chanting seagulls!!
Some of the most ridiculous & made up journalism ever, but the damage is already done, no matter if people bothered to read the apology from The Sun, the journalist and the multiple letters from Millwall & Brighton fans correcting him.
the 'Voice' is being discussed this afternoon on TalkSPORT. The newspaper has been refused accreditation to the Olympics, whereas, the Jewish Chronicle for example has accreditation. I suspect there will be a few more athletes of West Indian/African rather than Jewish extraction taking part in London 2012.
Wouldnt it be nice to see a programme that highlights the good football does.
People always complaining everyone is getting fat and not enough kids participate in sport, yet programmes that continually put down the beautiful game are not exactly gonna draw new participants in.
Wouldnt it be nice to see a programme that highlights the good football does.
People always complaining everyone is getting fat and not enough kids participate in sport, yet programmes that continually put down the beautiful game are not exactly gonna draw new participants in.
Agree but unfortunately it would never be made because it wouldn't get the viewing numbers a programme such as last night's would
This is exactly the kind of programe and debate that most black people find both patronising and condisending!
This from someone who didn't even see it. When the subject concerns racism, you would do well to take a back seat. Or shall we trot out your post on Charlton Loyal again, this time in full...?
Sparrow had the mark of this programme, lazy & disingenuous,ultimately doing the subject matter a disservice .
Comments
Millwall and Leeds were similar too.
Yeah. We were. Kept blacks out of the team for decades.
Phil Walker & Trevor Lee were white players dubbed up to be black just to trick people, clearly they didn't trick you.
Thought Phil Walker played for us? Wasn't all that if my memory is correct.
Not sure if I can add to what Off_it said except that as my family come from Broadstairs I try not to take the Broadstairsist remark personally...:-)
Now you're saying we openly excluded black players for decades?
What about chicken George, Fash the Bash, Witter's Wonderland?
Phil Walker & Trevor Lee were white players dubbed up to be black just to trick people, clearly they didn't trick you.
Thought Phil Walker played for us? Wasn't all that if my memory is correct.
He did. Played for us first though.
guess I better keep quiet now you mentioned 5 black players.
If you're going into the 90's there have been a few, recently there have been many including several who have been voted player of the season!
Here's my 2 pence worth.
It's such a bloody dumb question in the first place. Maybe a question like "Are there more racist elements or people involved in football than other sports / industries"
If the question is valid, one must ask "what is football"? I am a lifelong supporter so in this case i must be considered as a part of football and I absolutely deplore racism of any kind.
Sometimes anti social. Always anti fascist.....
why should any Club go out of its way to attract black, brown, yellow or purple people?
surely you just treat everyone the same.
everyone knows about football, anyone can go along if they want. there are not signs up saying certain ethnics may not be let in. do you honestly think that blacks/asians etc do not go to watch football for fear of racism? maybe black people and Asians do not want to go to watch football. some obviously do, maybe it is a cultural thing. blacks especially are heavily committed to the church at weekends, the evidence of this is when their children play football but the parents quite often do not attend as they are either at church or doing an activity connected with it.
http://sonatashasays.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/number-one-league.html - a blog piece she did about us.
Muttley we crossed swords about this years back on this thread ....http://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/39369/exeter-tickets-all-5/p3
I concede you are not a WUM ;-)
I dont think things like what you suggest warrant or require such action.
People of all colours and creed in the local area know what that big red stadium in SE7 is and those interested would already come. Those not interested will likely support other teams or just have no interest in going to football at all.
Id find it patronising if I were being targetted....and The Voice?!!! How many black folk do you know read that?!!
We should aim to attract new support without colour in mind as we always have done by advertising in the local press etc. Suggesting we start targetting specific groups of people based on ridiculous criteria such as skin colour as some kind of social engineering drive would make me really uncomfortable and not a route Id hope we or any other club would go down.
Charlton advertise to their community which is made up of a wide range of people including local black people so I dont see why we need to focus on specific targets.
Some of the most ridiculous & made up journalism ever, but the damage is already done, no matter if people bothered to read the apology from The Sun, the journalist and the multiple letters from Millwall & Brighton fans correcting him.
It baffles me that the problem is here???
Most clubs promote the anti-racism campaign. And racism on 99% of British terraces is a thing frowned-upon in this day and age.
The real problem is not in England, we have moved on.. ok we are not quite there yet but we are( out of the majoirty of European leagues) lightyears ahead of the rest in terms of putting an end to racism in football.
Also, of course we are biased , but can we give our own club a pat on the back here?
Resources aside, we have done more work to battle racism in the game than any other club over the past 15-20 years.
The kevin lisbie threads give an insight that most fans dont put up with it either any more and will either have a word or report it.
Surely having Chris Powell as a manager of our club should tell people that the likelihood of being racially abused at a Charlton game is the same as in other walks of life when you have a mass collection of people gathering in one place.
Of course theyll always be racial abuse at football as you get idiots everywhere....but then you can get racially abused on the train, in a pub on a plane etc but you dont see London Underground taking out adverts in The Voice (sorry but that still makes me lol) saying please continue to use our tube service as it's been 4 days since our last racial abuse incident for example.
If we were having this debate 30, 20 or even 10 years ago then I would be wholehartedly agreeing with you Muttley.
But I just find it a partonising and misguided idea now sorry. My nephew is not 100% white and I would never have even given it a second thought about taken him to Charlton, Millwall, Leeds or anywhere now for fear of him being abused for his ethnic make up nowdays. (He doesnt read the Voice by the way) ;-).
People always complaining everyone is getting fat and not enough kids participate in sport, yet programmes that continually put down the beautiful game are not exactly gonna draw new participants in.
This from someone who didn't even see it. When the subject concerns racism, you would do well to take a back seat. Or shall we trot out your post on Charlton Loyal again, this time in full...?
Sparrow had the mark of this programme, lazy & disingenuous,ultimately doing the subject matter a disservice .