I always wondered how they thought competition would work with the railways. If I didn't like the service from Chelmsford to London, I wasn't going to go from Birmingham to Glasgow instead
Maybe Branson has done us a favour by uncovering incompetence and Corruption and also by exposing how OUR money is being wasted by so called people who think they know how to run a railway. It's a scandalous waste of public money.
When you get a new party in office do all the civil servants that work behind the scenes change also
I was a civil servant for nearly forty years until I retired in 2010. The answer is that civil servants do not change with governments. Ministers and their advisers come and go but the civil servants remain. Their job is to serve the government of the day and they provide valuable continuity from one administration to the next. Civil servants get a bad press and have a poor public image but generally they are hard working and extremely able administrators. Mistakes of this sort are rare. I didn't work in the Transport Department and so don't know how they operate but I am very surprised that the basic errors which were made on the West Coast bid were not picked up at some stage in the process.
It's a pretty good rule of thumb that if something appears to be too good to be true it usually is. Justine Greening is an accountant by training. These things are no doubt very complicated, but even so she surely ought to have been questioning the numbers in the First Group bid. I'm not a fan of Branson, but he's not a fool. He knew it didn't add up. It look like a classic case where the minister should take responsibility - regardless of what they knew - but of course they won't.
There has been some intelligent innovation on the railway since privatisation, including suburban services (BR in SE London was a shambles in the 1980s under Thatcher with a basic 30 minute service outside the peaks and last trains as early as 11pm) but as Prague suggests they managed this on Inter-City before privatisation. It's about the quality of management rather than ownership. Subsidies have gone up since the poll tax on wheels was introduced by the Major government and one innovation many will be familiar with is that there are now fewer seats per coach on suburban trains in SE London. No obvious benefit to passengers there.
Probably the last good thing a government of any stripe did to the railway was nationalisation after the war - and ideology apart there wasn't much alternative because the infrastructure was knackered and the big four were bankrupt.
Noticed Greening did not speak up yesterday, and left it to the 'fat controller' - minister to squirm his way out of this fiasco. Blaming civil servants is an easy option the past and current minister have to take responsibility for there support of a process that was floored. Hiding behind 'collective responsibility' is a lame excuse. Of course as a minister you cannot be held to account for every action of your department, but the stance that she took in the commons was ridiculous. I think at the time the transport select commitee even suggested that the decision should be reconsidered on the grounds of the figures not being substantiated. Now we have the whole of the competitive tendering process up for review , with not only this tender, but a number of others. Even Branson complained that the process was too expensive, and would not consider doing so again after the decision. I would have thought that a quality standard should have been the first qualification for applying, and a company that walked away previously from a contract should be made to lodge a large bond if they go bust, or cannot maintain the contractual obligations they have signed up to. Bottom line is the taxpayer pays for the failure of these companies, like the banks, reap the rewards when the profits are there, deny liability and become evasive when things go wrong. I am not convinced that infastructure should only be run on profit. You only have to look at the shambles of the road and railways in South East London to look at that?....... Dartford 2 crossing anyone?
One of the News channels tried to speak to Justine Greening,but apparently she is not in the Country. It all seem,s like, Yes Minster.(Sir Humphrey Appleby and Bernard Wooley)
like 13 years of Labour didnt? who put the f++ked up Procurement rules in place the SHG
The Troies did. The changed the system shortly after coming into power - much longer contracts for example. But its not necessarily the process that is the problem - it was the evaluation whcih was truly screwed up, particualrly the acocuntancy.
Noticed Greening did not speak up yesterday, and left it to the 'fat controller' - minister to squirm his way out of this fiasco. Blaming civil servants is an easy option the past and current minister have to take responsibility for there support of a process that was floored. Hiding behind 'collective responsibility' is a lame excuse. Of course as a minister you cannot be held to account for every action of your department, but the stance that she took in the commons was ridiculous.
This is absolutely Greenings fault (along with the civil servants who shoudl certainly lose their jobs). As a former top-level accountant she qwas meant to have the expertise to check these things.
I like the way McLoughlin has come clean, impressive performance by him in very difficult circumstances.
I always wondered how they thought competition would work with the railways. If I didn't like the service from Chelmsford to London, I wasn't going to go from Birmingham to Glasgow instead
LOL! and the reason why privatisation was never going to work on the railways-unless they offered two contracts for each route to enable market forces to occur (though no doubt in that scenario the two rival companies would be found guilty of working together to push up prices by the competition regulator)
I find it really distasteful the way the politicians are heaping the blame on the civil servants.
This is not about a few dodgy calculations on this exercise. It is about the whole franchise system, which we have seen to be at fault on the East Coast too. There may be issues of corruption here too, but that is partly because the franchise process leaves us vulnerable to such behaviour.
I hate the term "nail on head" but McBobbin with one devastatingly simple sentence shows us all why the entire privatised railway system is a load of bollocks.
What I dont understand is why it will cost us 40m. they have all the tenders from the original - surely the companies dont have to tender again, just evaluate the same tenders but apply the correct process to it this time. The original tenders should stay as they were.
It seems to me that the longer the contract the better if you are going down the privitisation route, but that creates a problem. It is hard enough to predict what will happen in 6 months time, let alone 15 years. If the bidders were making economic assumptions for the whole period - in this case some more optimistic than others- I can't help but think how complex it all was. The more complicated you make it all, the more likely mistakes will be made. You also get the impression that whilst all bids met the rules, Virgin's was the more honest bid - Virgin have been critical of First Group's bid and I'd like to see that investigated-Ultimately, it is all a big nonsense and a waste of our money. My gut feeling was the main objective was to find who will be offering the Government the most money and that in iteself probably clouded the whole thing. It was presented to us all with relish as a terrific deal for commuters and taxpayers. A very sorry state of affairs.
like 13 years of Labour didnt? who put the f++ked up Procurement rules in place the SHG
The Troies did. The changed the system shortly after coming into power - much longer contracts for example. But its not necessarily the process that is the problem - it was the evaluation whcih was truly screwed up, particualrly the acocuntancy.
It wasnt the Torys this level of Procurement come under the Official Journal of the European Union. That where it is advertised pre Companies applying to bid. Complex bids can be under A Competitive Dialogue process (im on one now value minimum £280Million). We have two lawyers with us when we meet the bidders. Its now been ongoing for 6 months and we wont have an outcome until Feb. If we dont have the lawyers we might be challenged that the bid process is flawed and may receive a challenge from a losing bidder. If they will they can get all their costs plus potential loss of profit. Branson threatened to challenge---it was checked and the bid appears to be flawed by a mistake (or 3). Who ever wins this bid HM Gov(us the tax payers) now face a challenge from the loser , which they will will and we will pay out megga money.
The amount of money these procurement processes cost the tax payer or the poll tax payer is truly stunning and thats if it all goes right !
Its a decision for a 15bn contract so how can the political executive get away with blaming the administration?!!! Getting PWC in to check the numbers only after Virgin issue a high court challenge is a bit late ... as Branson pointed out it's pretty stupid to award the contract to a crowd who have back loaded the numbers so that most of the gain (if it happens) comes in after 2023... and I thought this government were focussed on bringing down the deficit NOW
On the trains privatisation I like what many have said about it being a mess... one authority on the subject reckoned that splitting the train operating from the tracks and stations was simply a device to weaken trade union power at the time?
And what now? Give Virgin a two year extension and, tell you what, why not ask him to bid for the stations and tracks as well so that he can unify the management and make the line even better? Prague Addick mentions European bemusement - a recent study reckons we spend 30% more on our trains than the European average... I expect much of that is down to three sets of lawyers, surveyors and accountants working for the trains, tracks and regulators?
..and so we stagger from the last shambles to the next. I'm not a big fan of Milliband but he called it right on this govt the other day.
The scariest thing is that they are desperate to flog off the NHS to the highest bidder too and I've seen nothing to suggest in those sectors already privatised that this will be anything but a complete and utter disaster.
Some things are just too important to be left to the markets...
Bottled out of giving it to the State employed team that have turned the East Coast round, then. Ideology before decent train services, again.
actually we have a very good train service with Virgin thank you very much, how about practicality over ideology?
Well if you have to have this idiotic franchised system, it seems Virgin deliver it as well as any of the other private operators. In which case it is a pity that £40m + of our money has been wasted on some useles tender, isn't it? Could have bought three more Pendolinos for that money. And then presumably they will run another tender costing the same amount in a year's time.
Bottled out of giving it to the State employed team that have turned the East Coast round, then. Ideology before decent train services, again.
actually we have a very good train service with Virgin thank you very much, how about practicality over ideology?
Well if you have to have this idiotic franchised system, it seems Virgin deliver it as well as any of the other private operators. In which case it is a pity that £40m + of our money has been wasted on some useles tender, isn't it? Could have bought three more Pendolinos for that money. And then presumably they will run another tender costing the same amount in a year's time.
How very practical
In every line of business money is "wasted" when I worked for a food company they had to do a tender every year to certain supermarkets. My company would take the supermarket buyers away on "business trips, business lunch" there was no guarntee that they would get the business. Lots of money was spent on these sorts of expenses, Virgin should run the line there is no way in hell the other people could have done what they said they would of. All that would have happened is they promised the world and started to lose money then suddenly have to raise Its tickets prices or waited till they lost the business and the next company would of had to take over the cost, bit like what has happened with Goverment.
I sometimes get a little fed up with people who work overseas criticise our country, perhaps they should come back here and help put it right - e.g. PragueAddick
I sometimes get a little fed up with people who work overseas criticise our country, perhaps they should come back here and help put it right - e.g. PragueAddick
I sometimes get a bit fed up with people who still haven't understood how borders and barriers in the modern world are breaking down.
For your information, I pay UK income tax, my small company pays UK corporation tax, I am on the electoral roll, am on personal terms with my -excellent- MP. I have signed several e-petitions pertaining to UK life and society. My mother, brother and sister all live in Eltham, and the latter two go to the Valley regularly. I am not a burden on the UK National health service, but I have fully paid up my NI contributions, and will receive my princely state pension. I support my nephew's University study because it is beyond my sister's resources to do it alone. I listen to the Today programme every morning, the home page of my browsers is that of a major UK newspaper. I buy most of my clothes and all my books and music in the UK, thus paying VAT and helping UK business (although sadly, we let Amazon get away with not paying UK corporation tax on the profit). I can get back to the Valley door to door from my Prague home in as little as 4.5 hours (disregarding time differences).I used to have a season ticket at Charlton until the second season in the Champ, even though I "moved" to Prague in 1993. I considered it a solidarity payment. I'm still good for 5-6 games a season, including in Lancashire - Oldham away, season before last, travelling on Virgin. I possess an Oyster card. The shirt I'm wearing today is a Paul Smith,the shoes from Loake, the cup I'm drinking coffee from, a Denby.
When it comes to railways, I have some professional interest as one of my key clients at the advertising agency I worked for before I left for Prague was British Rail; one of my best friends was a key DFT project manager in the privatisation process, bless him, and currently one of my clients in Prague is a new private rail operator.
And you know what...there are thousands of people like me with similar stories to tell, in Prague alone.
no I can't be bothered to rise to your anal detail
I am no friend of privatisation but do believe that Virgin have done a good job on what is my local train line, I have no intention of justifying this statement with details of my life, my listening habits, my friends, my work, my financial status, my family or my clothing, suffice to say I have in fact risen, or is it plumbed the depth, of your answer - oh dear.
Perhaps if you frequent a Lancashire match this season we could discuss this further over a drink?
i will be evaluating 3 tenders in the next week as part of a seven person team. originally after the quailifying period this was down to five and the evaluation should get down to 3. Howener two pulled out--so why are we undertaking this evaluation as we are already at 3? The lawyers tell us if we do not evaluate we may (after bid award) receive a "challange" as we didnt follow the written process. This wast of time will cost thousands of pounds extra.
re the WCMain Line----Virgin "challanged" the bid process and won. who ever loses now will win any sort of challange as the bid process is flawed. They will be able to recoupe the full amount of the bid process(£100Kz min) If Virgin win the other bidder will also claim for loss of profit as it wasnt their fault the bid process was flawed---loss of profit = millions of pounds of tax payers money pissed up the wall.
I sometimes get a little fed up with people who work overseas criticise our country, perhaps they should come back here and help put it right - e.g. PragueAddick
This is a great statement, there is nothing worst then people who live abroad critising the country and where it all went wrong! It doesn't matter what country you live in the government will always waste money! Look at Spain, Italy,Ireland and Greece for example all in the sh*t just like us.
I think threads like this always turn into "how bad the current government are doing" then again I suppose in the many years Labour were in government no money was wasted at all on certain projects?! I don't know Branson personally but do believe he has done some good things with his companies, I would value his opinion on certain things like this whole west cost line saga, his bank didn't need bailing out a few years ago so guess he is quite clued up maybe a bit more then the other train line company who were going to practaclly offer free train fares by the sound of things.
Something I have learnt over time is never offer the world because 99 per cent of the time you won't be able to deliver it and when I think of the deals that were put on the table I think one would of not delivered what it promised.
Comments
It's a scandalous waste of public money.
When you get a new party in office do all the civil servants that work behind the scenes change also
If not then the error which has been attributed to a civil servant could have still happend
I know that someone more competant than the person in charge may have spotted the error and raised it but they may not
If they do go then the people in charge are fully culpible
There has been some intelligent innovation on the railway since privatisation, including suburban services (BR in SE London was a shambles in the 1980s under Thatcher with a basic 30 minute service outside the peaks and last trains as early as 11pm) but as Prague suggests they managed this on Inter-City before privatisation. It's about the quality of management rather than ownership. Subsidies have gone up since the poll tax on wheels was introduced by the Major government and one innovation many will be familiar with is that there are now fewer seats per coach on suburban trains in SE London. No obvious benefit to passengers there.
Probably the last good thing a government of any stripe did to the railway was nationalisation after the war - and ideology apart there wasn't much alternative because the infrastructure was knackered and the big four were bankrupt.
Bottom line is the taxpayer pays for the failure of these companies, like the banks, reap the rewards when the profits are there, deny liability and become evasive when things go wrong.
I am not convinced that infastructure should only be run on profit. You only have to look at the shambles of the road and railways in South East London to look at that?....... Dartford 2 crossing anyone?
I like the way McLoughlin has come clean, impressive performance by him in very difficult circumstances.
I find it really distasteful the way the politicians are heaping the blame on the civil servants.
This is not about a few dodgy calculations on this exercise. It is about the whole franchise system, which we have seen to be at fault on the East Coast too. There may be issues of corruption here too, but that is partly because the franchise process leaves us vulnerable to such behaviour.
I hate the term "nail on head" but McBobbin with one devastatingly simple sentence shows us all why the entire privatised railway system is a load of bollocks.
they have all the tenders from the original - surely the companies dont have to tender again, just evaluate the same tenders but apply the correct process to it this time. The original tenders should stay as they were.
We have two lawyers with us when we meet the bidders. Its now been ongoing for 6 months and we wont have an outcome until Feb.
If we dont have the lawyers we might be challenged that the bid process is flawed and may receive a challenge from a losing bidder. If they will they can get all their costs plus potential loss of profit.
Branson threatened to challenge---it was checked and the bid appears to be flawed by a mistake (or 3). Who ever wins this bid HM Gov(us the tax payers) now face a challenge from the loser , which they will will and we will pay out megga money.
The amount of money these procurement processes cost the tax payer or the poll tax payer is truly stunning and thats if it all goes right !
On the trains privatisation I like what many have said about it being a mess... one authority on the subject reckoned that splitting the train operating from the tracks and stations was simply a device to weaken trade union power at the time?
And what now? Give Virgin a two year extension and, tell you what, why not ask him to bid for the stations and tracks as well so that he can unify the management and make the line even better? Prague Addick mentions European bemusement - a recent study reckons we spend 30% more on our trains than the European average... I expect much of that is down to three sets of lawyers, surveyors and accountants working for the trains, tracks and regulators?
The scariest thing is that they are desperate to flog off the NHS to the highest bidder too and I've seen nothing to suggest in those sectors already privatised that this will be anything but a complete and utter disaster.
Some things are just too important to be left to the markets...
How very practical
For your information, I pay UK income tax, my small company pays UK corporation tax, I am on the electoral roll, am on personal terms with my -excellent- MP. I have signed several e-petitions pertaining to UK life and society. My mother, brother and sister all live in Eltham, and the latter two go to the Valley regularly. I am not a burden on the UK National health service, but I have fully paid up my NI contributions, and will receive my princely state pension. I support my nephew's University study because it is beyond my sister's resources to do it alone. I listen to the Today programme every morning, the home page of my browsers is that of a major UK newspaper. I buy most of my clothes and all my books and music in the UK, thus paying VAT and helping UK business (although sadly, we let Amazon get away with not paying UK corporation tax on the profit). I can get back to the Valley door to door from my Prague home in as little as 4.5 hours (disregarding time differences).I used to have a season ticket at Charlton until the second season in the Champ, even though I "moved" to Prague in 1993. I considered it a solidarity payment. I'm still good for 5-6 games a season, including in Lancashire - Oldham away, season before last, travelling on Virgin. I possess an Oyster card. The shirt I'm wearing today is a Paul Smith,the shoes from Loake, the cup I'm drinking coffee from, a Denby.
When it comes to railways, I have some professional interest as one of my key clients at the advertising agency I worked for before I left for Prague was British Rail; one of my best friends was a key DFT project manager in the privatisation process, bless him, and currently one of my clients in Prague is a new private rail operator.
And you know what...there are thousands of people like me with similar stories to tell, in Prague alone.
no I can't be bothered to rise to your anal detail
I am no friend of privatisation but do believe that Virgin have done a good job on what is my local train line, I have no intention of justifying this statement with details of my life, my listening habits, my friends, my work, my financial status, my family or my clothing, suffice to say I have in fact risen, or is it plumbed the depth, of your answer - oh dear.
Perhaps if you frequent a Lancashire match this season we could discuss this further over a drink?
re the WCMain Line----Virgin "challanged" the bid process and won. who ever loses now will win any sort of challange as the bid process is flawed. They will be able to recoupe the full amount of the bid process(£100Kz min) If Virgin win the other bidder will also claim for loss of profit as it wasnt their fault the bid process was flawed---loss of profit = millions of pounds of tax payers money pissed up the wall.
I think threads like this always turn into "how bad the current government are doing" then again I suppose in the many years Labour were in government no money was wasted at all on certain projects?! I don't know Branson personally but do believe he has done some good things with his companies, I would value his opinion on certain things like this whole west cost line saga, his bank didn't need bailing out a few years ago so guess he is quite clued up maybe a bit more then the other train line company who were going to practaclly offer free train fares by the sound of things.
Something I have learnt over time is never offer the world because 99 per cent of the time you won't be able to deliver it and when I think of the deals that were put on the table I think one would of not delivered what it promised.