Bomber Command Veterans Personally Liable

Lincsaddick

iainment said:

Rizzo said:

iainment said:

Lincsaddick said:

iainment said:

Lincsaddick said:

iainment said:

Rather than sign petitions why don't you make a donation towards the outstanding costs?

what I could afford would make an infinitesimal dent in the debt. Besides that this is a matter of national pride, fuck the peacenicks, these men died for us in their thousands

Well it's not important enough for you to give a quid towards then. You could do both - sign and donate. That way your outrage is expressed and the veterans get off the hook.

You misunderstand and are presuming you know how 'important' this is to me .. I'll put in my quid or more if/when an appeal for money is forthcoming. An elementary grasp of arithmetic will show you that 6,000,000 need to put in £1 .. or 600,000 to put in £10 etc etc ..

The shortfall is £500,000 according to the BBC - that should be attainable I'd have thought. If not then the whole point of the memorial becomes questionable.

The point here is to shame the government into doing what's right, not to bail them out and cough up ourselves.

At the risk of having no monument and the veterans being made bankrupt? That's a good idea. And you'd feel all warmhearted about doing the right thing in principle.

what ARE you on about ?? .. that WC in your photo ? .. go stick your head down it, then flush repeatedly

iainment

Lincsaddick said:

iainment said:

Rizzo said:

iainment said:

Lincsaddick said:

iainment said:

Lincsaddick said:

iainment said:

Rather than sign petitions why don't you make a donation towards the outstanding costs?

what I could afford would make an infinitesimal dent in the debt. Besides that this is a matter of national pride, fuck the peacenicks, these men died for us in their thousands

Well it's not important enough for you to give a quid towards then. You could do both - sign and donate. That way your outrage is expressed and the veterans get off the hook.

You misunderstand and are presuming you know how 'important' this is to me .. I'll put in my quid or more if/when an appeal for money is forthcoming. An elementary grasp of arithmetic will show you that 6,000,000 need to put in £1 .. or 600,000 to put in £10 etc etc ..

The shortfall is £500,000 according to the BBC - that should be attainable I'd have thought. If not then the whole point of the memorial becomes questionable.

The point here is to shame the government into doing what's right, not to bail them out and cough up ourselves.

At the risk of having no monument and the veterans being made bankrupt? That's a good idea. And you'd feel all warmhearted about doing the right thing in principle.

what ARE you on about ?? .. that WC in your photo ? .. go stick your head down it, then flush repeatedly

I'm on about ways to sort this - an epetition probably won't, a collection probably would if enough people want to help. It'd only need about £750 from each constituency, so it's not a lot from each area.

iainment

Rizzo said:

If your answer is to stick your hand in your pocket to sort out every fuck up the government makes then the veterans aren't going to be the only ones made bankrupt.

Not every fuck up but where blameless individuals face bankruptcy I'd have thought a collection was the practical way to help.

Lincsaddick

iainment said:

Lincsaddick said:

iainment said:

Rizzo said:

iainment said:

Lincsaddick said:

iainment said:

Lincsaddick said:

iainment said:

Rather than sign petitions why don't you make a donation towards the outstanding costs?

what I could afford would make an infinitesimal dent in the debt. Besides that this is a matter of national pride, fuck the peacenicks, these men died for us in their thousands

Well it's not important enough for you to give a quid towards then. You could do both - sign and donate. That way your outrage is expressed and the veterans get off the hook.

You misunderstand and are presuming you know how 'important' this is to me .. I'll put in my quid or more if/when an appeal for money is forthcoming. An elementary grasp of arithmetic will show you that 6,000,000 need to put in £1 .. or 600,000 to put in £10 etc etc ..

The shortfall is £500,000 according to the BBC - that should be attainable I'd have thought. If not then the whole point of the memorial becomes questionable.

The point here is to shame the government into doing what's right, not to bail them out and cough up ourselves.

At the risk of having no monument and the veterans being made bankrupt? That's a good idea. And you'd feel all warmhearted about doing the right thing in principle.

what ARE you on about ?? .. that WC in your photo ? .. go stick your head down it, then flush repeatedly

I'm on about ways to sort this - an epetition probably won't, a collection probably would if enough people want to help. It'd only need about £750 from each constituency, so it's not a lot from each area.

a collection/fund raising has been mentioned, I am sure that funds will be raised to pay the 'debt' .. scroll back.. reread the post from the start .. and especially reread the bit about the PRINCIPLE of the matter .. that should answer your questions .. hopefully

cafckev

Does anyone honestly think that by us, the public starting to raise money would shame the government into coughing up the cash? All it would do is say to themselves, that's less they have to dish out to the common person !

Lincsaddick

cafckev said:

Does anyone honestly think that by us, the public starting to raise money would shame the government into coughing up the cash? All it would do is say to themselves, that's less they have to dish out to the common person !

precisely .. we're all mugs to be exploied by Slick Dave n Mili & Co

iainment

Lincsaddick said:

iainment said:

Lincsaddick said:

iainment said:

Rizzo said:

iainment said:

Lincsaddick said:

iainment said:

Lincsaddick said:

iainment said:

Rather than sign petitions why don't you make a donation towards the outstanding costs?

what I could afford would make an infinitesimal dent in the debt. Besides that this is a matter of national pride, fuck the peacenicks, these men died for us in their thousands

Well it's not important enough for you to give a quid towards then. You could do both - sign and donate. That way your outrage is expressed and the veterans get off the hook.

You misunderstand and are presuming you know how 'important' this is to me .. I'll put in my quid or more if/when an appeal for money is forthcoming. An elementary grasp of arithmetic will show you that 6,000,000 need to put in £1 .. or 600,000 to put in £10 etc etc ..

The shortfall is £500,000 according to the BBC - that should be attainable I'd have thought. If not then the whole point of the memorial becomes questionable.

The point here is to shame the government into doing what's right, not to bail them out and cough up ourselves.

At the risk of having no monument and the veterans being made bankrupt? That's a good idea. And you'd feel all warmhearted about doing the right thing in principle.

what ARE you on about ?? .. that WC in your photo ? .. go stick your head down it, then flush repeatedly

I'm on about ways to sort this - an epetition probably won't, a collection probably would if enough people want to help. It'd only need about £750 from each constituency, so it's not a lot from each area.

a collection/fund raising has been mentioned, I am sure that funds will be raised to pay the 'debt' .. scroll back.. reread the post from the start .. and especially reread the bit about the PRINCIPLE of the matter .. that should answer your questions .. hopefully

Explain the Principle please. Also as far as I can see it was me that suggested raising money on this thread.

Lincsaddick

the petition is up to 80 votes .. only 80 .. this is going to go nowhere

LuckyReds

It may be worth checking the AARSE and the other service forums; they generally promote and have the ability to raise awareness of issues like this.

It's ironic that last night I was watching a programme on Bomber Command; just disgusting. Worse than the way the Ghurka's were treated, and that says a lot.

Greenie

All sorted now, Cameron says Gov will pay

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2213164/Victory-After-Mail-appeal-PM-WILL-pay-Bomber-Command-tribute.html

Lincsaddick

Greenie said:

All sorted now, Cameron says Gov will pay

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2213164/Victory-After-Mail-appeal-PM-WILL-pay-Bomber-Command-tribute.html

Good .. he's seen sense .. or at least weighed up the problems from bad publicity

LenGlover

Greenie said:

All sorted now, Cameron says Gov will pay

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2213164/Victory-After-Mail-appeal-PM-WILL-pay-Bomber-Command-tribute.html

Let's hope it's not a Cameron cast iron guarantee......

MuttleyCAFC

The problem was that the policy of bombing civillians was a very contoversial one. When a statue of Bomber Harris was erected in London a few years back - it was almost immediately smeared in red paint. It was also thought for a long time that it was a needless act of terror althouh more recently, military historians are saying that it was justified and legitimate. But that background may explain why the recogntion others got was more than those from Bomber Command.

The fact is, it was a highly dangerous job, and they are all heroes and it reflects badly on us if we ignore them or treat them differently from other heroes. War is nasty and terrible things happen but we should never forget that those fighting for their country were very couragious and many lost their lives for us.

Wheresmeticket

As always war is waged on behalf of power and privelege using the lives of the poor and powerless. The dead of both sides have more in common with each other, soldiers or civilians, than with those sending them to die.

LenGlover

MuttleyCAFC said:

The problem was that the policy of bombing civillians was a very contoversial one. When a statue of Bomber Harris was erected in London a few years back - it was almost immediately smeared in red paint. It was also thought for a long time that it was a needless act of terror althouh more recently, military historians are saying that it was justified and legitimate. But that background may explain why the recogntion others got was more than those from Bomber Command.

The fact is, it was a highly dangerous job, and they are all heroes and it reflects badly on us if we ignore them or treat them differently from other heroes. War is nasty and terrible things happen but we should never forget that those fighting for their country were very couragious and many lost their lives for us.

I accept that there is a debate to be had re the morality of the tactics employed but as one who would not be here today had the German pilot who shot at my mother, aunt and uncle when they were children been a better shot I fall firmly in the "them" or "us" camp in my personal view regarding this.

However accepting for a moment that the tactics were morally wrong that is still no reason to deprive the Bomber Command crews, who simply did what they were told by their so called betters, medals or any other form of recognition. Let alone make them pay for it when they and their comrades have already sacrificed so much.

soapy_jones

Ah the hindsight of 70 odd years. Some commentators and apologists need to get a grip. The rules and sensibilities of the war years can never be squared in our modern times. Drop all the self flagellation and loathing and honour these young men, who died doing their duty, including my Uncle George, who was 23 years old when he died plummeting to the ground in a burning Lancaster bomber in Germany in 1944.

MuttleyCAFC

I agree and I don't think that you can even say with total certainty they were morally wrong tactics. If Harris believed they would shorten the war - he could argue they would potentially save lives. War is dreadful - full stop. The Germans were bombing our civillians before and most of the people in the army were civillians doing their duty - Wars kill innocent people but it doesn't mean we should forget or be ungrateful to the brave people who fought for freedom.

Wheresmeticket

.

sorry - broke my own "stop bickering" rule.

Greenie

soapy_jones said:

Ah the hindsight of 70 odd years. Some commentators and apologists need to get a grip. The rules and sensibilities of the war years can never be squared in our modern times. Drop all the self flagellation and loathing and honour these young men, who died doing their duty, including my Uncle George, who was 23 years old when he died plummeting to the ground in a burning Lancaster bomber in Germany in 1944.

Totally agree, good post!

These brave men and women gave their tomorrow so we can have our today, they made the greatest sacrifice to give us the right to criticize what went on 70 years ago, however sometimes its better to say nothing about the past.

Jayajosh

Easy solution, we sell one of our Tomahawk missiles, which usually cost £800,000 to buy?

Wheresmeticket

yeh, the Syrian govt must be in the market for a bit of hardware?

IdleHans

or we dont screw up on a £40m rail bidding process. Make the civil servants pay for that.

Jayajosh

This puts everything in perspective (2009 only): -

'US equipment spend in Afghanistan for 2009 is equivalent to nearly £463,000 for each of its 61,950 soldiers. For Britain's 9,000 troops in Helmand the Afghan-specific equipment spend equates to just £288,889 per head. For Canadian troops currently fighting in Kandahar province, the spend is equivalent to £507,539 per soldier. Only the Germans' 4,000 troops in the more peaceful north of Afghanistan come in lower than the UK, at around £152,000 per head'.