The board is under no obligation to communicate with us at all.We are customers, and our sentimental attachment to the club ultimately counts for nothing.
Without our sentimental attachment there would literally be no club. That is a fact.
Sadly, 16 % of the posts above are "same old crap, I'm bored". OK if you are bored, fine. But why do you feel the need to make me read about the fact you're bored? I can't find a more polite way to say "Why should I or anyone else care?"
Why did you feel the need to post that? Answer that and you'll answer your own question.
You have already presumed to know my answer.
I don't post in the "what starting 11 against Boro" thread because I don't think I've got any opinion that would help anyone. But there's no harm in the thread, it's what we all talk about in the pub. Some people in the pub would also talk about what AFKA writes here. Why would anyone else want to stop them?
I wasn't aware that anyone was trying to stop anyone saying anything. Some people were just giving their view. You might not like or agree with that view, but that's just tough really - last time I looked I didn't see anything saying we all had to agree about stuff.
Oh come on. If you are just "bored" with a topic, why would you even open a thread? There are loads I don't open, but I'm not judging their validity. And If you remain so bored, why do you read through the whole thread and then tell everybody that you are bored by it? I mean they can if they want, but I just don't get why. My best guess about why is that they find discussions about the idea that all isn't right behind the scenes, unsettling. Well so do I. But their response is to look away and hope the bad news goes away too. So they'd rather threads like this didn't exist.
Change the record. It's almost as if you want something to happen like Powell leaving do you can go I told you say you should have listened
There seems to be a lot of that going on Mike.
Seems you and Mike and NSS and a few others want their cake and to eat it too.
You constantLy say there is no problem and dismiss anyone who says anything diffierent.
But when cracks start to appear you try to blame the people who were warning you. Somehow you get to be right and they are wrong both ways because without any evidence or reasoning "they want Powell to go to be proved right".
As AFKA said total bollocks on your part.
No, it was exactly because they didn't want to see Powell sacked and didn't want to see the Club in a mess that they raised the alarm.
This is like you standing on the deck of the Titanic and you saying " there's no problem, you're making it all up". But when the Berg appers you suddenly start screaming " I bet you want us to hit that iceberg so you can say you were right"
The board is under no obligation to communicate with us at all.We are customers, and our sentimental attachment to the club ultimately counts for nothing.
Without our sentimental attachment there would literally be no club. That is a fact.
No, it isn't.
Football is not like any normal business. You go to watch Charlton because you are "Charlton". You don't have a choice. You are irrationally and emotionally attached to your club and you have no possibility of deciding that from now on Watford or whoever are the team for you. If you don't understand this sad and sometimes fantastic reality then you are not "Charlton" or indeed part of the football tribe but are just a fan of football.
The board is under no obligation to communicate with us at all.We are customers, and our sentimental attachment to the club ultimately counts for nothing.
Without our sentimental attachment there would literally be no club. That is a fact.
No, it isn't.
Football is not like any normal business. You go to watch Charlton because you are "Charlton". You don't have a choice. You are irrationally and emotionally attached to your club and you have no possibility of deciding that from now on Watford or whoever are the team for you. If you don't understand this sad and sometimes fantastic reality then you are not "Charlton" or indeed part of the football tribe but are just a fan of football.
Spot on. Otherwise why would fans who live long distances from the ground still pitch up every home game, or follow the club from overseas? I live in Berkshire and could much more easily go to Reading or even Aldershot, but I'm still at the Valley every game because I was brought up in Charlton/Eltham, my dad used to live in Floyd Road and go to matches in the 30s, and my son is now the 3rd generation Addick. Nothing can ever shake that, I'll be an Addick come what may. Doesn't stop me getting hacked off with a Board that doesn't seem to give a monkey's about what we think and feel though.
Most companies would kill for 'customers" as loyal as football fans.
Most big commercial business do everything they can to find out what their "customers" want and explain what they are doing.
As for Arsenal ignoring their fans wishes? Really? They gave their Trust a golden share. They have a Fans Forum that was the model for our now disappeared Fans Forum.
At Swansea the fans own 20% of the Club.
Yes you can suceed with a "fuck the fans, it's my Club" attitude but why would you want to do that? And what does that tell you about owners with that view?
As AFKA said loyal supporters are an asset and potential allies and shouldn't be ignored or disregarded. Listen to them and work with them. Tap into that knowledge and yes that cash.
Just look at what little Charlton Life has done. Paid for first team travel and mini-buses, shirt sponsorships and now we're buying another vehicle for the Acadmey. You know why? Because Paul Hart ASKED and he EXPLAINED why it was needed. Not that difficult to do.
Look at the £2m that gone into the Academy from Valley Gold. That is a real tangible benefit.
Look at the recent VIP scheme. "Customers" willing to pay five years ST money upfront. Would you pay Sainsbury's for five years groceries?
But the last VIP meeting was cancelled and still no new date set.
Sorry to break this news, but CAFC are not owned by the fans but by the owners and shareholders.
The Chairman/CEO of today...or whoever buys the club in the future can do what whatever they want, including ignoring the paying punters and life-long fans. The same way that if we don't like how they run the club we can all go walk away today and go elsewhere for our weekly football fix and entertainment. Please stop the negative and unhelpful speculating on what you can only know very little about.
Look over the River Thames to Arsenal if you want to see how some club owners disregard their fans, we all know from our recent history in the 1980's that it could all be a lot worse worse. There are worse things going in football than poor PR management at Charlton AFC.
Sorry to break this news, but CAFC are not owned by the fans but by the owners and shareholders.
The Chairman/CEO of today...or whoever buys the club in the future can do what whatever they want, including ignoring the paying punters and life-long fans. The same way that if we don't like how they run the club we can all go walk away today and go elsewhere for our weekly football fix and entertainment. Please stop the negative and unhelpful speculating on what you can only know very little about.
Look over the River Thames to Arsenal if you want to see how some club owners disregard their fans, we all know from our recent history in the 1980's that it could all be a lot worse worse. There are worse things going in football than poor PR management at Charlton AFC.
Mr Wise Addict
I'm a bit surprised you use Arsenal to support your overall argument. They at least have their Fanshare scheme, run by the Supporters Trust. Its far from the perfect model, but better than the one at Chelsea, where if Abramovic gets bored, or takes a dose of Polonium 210 with his sushi, the club will be immediately and royally NSS'ed.
What is your opinion on the German model of club ownership and management? If you watch ITV4s coverage of the Bundesliga you couldn't fail to be impressed by the full stadia, the topsy-turvy results and the sense that the Germans somehow nicked our beautiful game.
I accept that i know relatively little about what is going on at CAFC. However that is all the more reason for me to want to find out, and that is what I will continue to do, and I encourage every other true fan to do the same.
Most companies would kill for 'customers" as loyal as football fans.
Most big commercial business do everything they can to find out what their "customers" want and explain what they are doing.
As for Arsenal ignoring their fans wishes? Really? They gave their Trust a golden share. They have a Fans Forum that was the model for our now disappeared Fans Forum.
At Swansea the fans own 20% of the Club.
Yes you can suceed with a "fuck the fans, it's my Club" attitude but why would you want to do that? And what does that tell you about owners with that view?
As AFKA said loyal supporters are an asset and potential allies and shouldn't be ignored or disregarded. Listen to them and work with them. Tap into that knowledge and yes that cash.
Just look at what little Charlton Life has done. Paid for first team travel and mini-buses, shirt sponsorships and now we're buying another vehicle for the Acadmey. You know why? Because Paul Hart ASKED and he EXPLAINED why it was needed. Not that difficult to do.
Look at the £2m that gone into the Academy from Valley Gold. That is a real tangible benefit.
Look at the recent VIP scheme. "Customers" willing to pay five years ST money upfront. Would you pay Sainsbury's for five years groceries?
But the last VIP meeting was cancelled and still no new date set.
Sadly, 16 % of the posts above are "same old crap, I'm bored". OK if you are bored, fine. But why do you feel the need to make me read about the fact you're bored? I can't find a more polite way to say "Why should I or anyone else care?"
Why did you feel the need to post that? Answer that and you'll answer your own question.
You have already presumed to know my answer.
I don't post in the "what starting 11 against Boro" thread because I don't think I've got any opinion that would help anyone. But there's no harm in the thread, it's what we all talk about in the pub. Some people in the pub would also talk about what AFKA writes here. Why would anyone else want to stop them?
I wasn't aware that anyone was trying to stop anyone saying anything. Some people were just giving their view. You might not like or agree with that view, but that's just tough really - last time I looked I didn't see anything saying we all had to agree about stuff.
Oh come on. If you are just "bored" with a topic, why would you even open a thread? There are loads I don't open, but I'm not judging their validity. And If you remain so bored, why do you read through the whole thread and then tell everybody that you are bored by it? I mean they can if they want, but I just don't get why. My best guess about why is that they find discussions about the idea that all isn't right behind the scenes, unsettling. Well so do I. But their response is to look away and hope the bad news goes away too. So they'd rather threads like this didn't exist.
Change the record. It's almost as if you want something to happen like Powell leaving do you can go I told you say you should have listened
There seems to be a lot of that going on Mike.
Seems you and Mike and NSS and a few others want their cake and to eat it too.
You constantLy say there is no problem and dismiss anyone who says anything diffierent.
But when cracks start to appear you try to blame the people who were warning you. Somehow you get to be right and they are wrong both ways because without any evidence or reasoning "they want Powell to go to be proved right".
As AFKA said total bollocks on your part.
No, it was exactly because they didn't want to see Powell sacked and didn't want to see the Club in a mess that they raised the alarm.
This is like you standing on the deck of the Titanic and you saying " there's no problem, you're making it all up". But when the Berg appers you suddenly start screaming " I bet you want us to hit that iceberg so you can say you were right"
"You constantly say there is no problem"? Me?
If you can point to one post where I have said that then I will make the winning bid on every auction you want to start for the next year.
Yadda yadda yadda sooooo, how are we going to make them listen?
I did hear you Razil, its just that the words "might" and "help" make it a bit wishy washy. I fully understand that it maybe the only route and I'm 100% sure we would be worse of without it but, I was of a thinking more alternative.
The board is under no obligation to communicate with us at all.We are customers, and our sentimental attachment to the club ultimately counts for nothing.
Without our sentimental attachment there would literally be no club. That is a fact.
No, it isn't.
Football is not like any normal business. You go to watch Charlton because you are "Charlton". You don't have a choice. You are irrationally and emotionally attached to your club and you have no possibility of deciding that from now on Watford or whoever are the team for you. If you don't understand this sad and sometimes fantastic reality then you are not "Charlton" or indeed part of the football tribe but are just a fan of football.
From the sentimental to the hysterical. What on earth are you talking about, you have no choice in supporting Charlton? Every single one of us on here CHOSE to do so. @Henry Yes, any company would love to have customers as loyal as us fans. They know that regardless of the product's failings,lack of communication concerning said product's failings, we,as customers, will continue to buy it.
They are only too aware that the only loyalty that exists in a club is with the fans, who will continue to support them regardless of how shabblily we are treated.
The board is under no obligation to communicate with us at all.We are customers, and our sentimental attachment to the club ultimately counts for nothing.
Without our sentimental attachment there would literally be no club. That is a fact.
No, it isn't.
Football is not like any normal business. You go to watch Charlton because you are "Charlton". You don't have a choice. You are irrationally and emotionally attached to your club and you have no possibility of deciding that from now on Watford or whoever are the team for you. If you don't understand this sad and sometimes fantastic reality then you are not "Charlton" or indeed part of the football tribe but are just a fan of football.
From the sentimental to the hysterical. What on earth are you talking about, you have no choice in supporting Charlton? Every single one of us on here CHOSE to do so. @Henry Yes, any company would love to have customers as loyal as us fans. They know that regardless of the product's failings,lack of communication concerning said product's failings, we,as customers, will continue to buy it.
They are only too aware that the only loyalty that exists in a club is with the fans, who will continue to support them regardless of how shabblily we are treated.
Well done Hulse, excellent finish.
@Redskin. Do you genuinely believe that the majority of us have a choice who we support ? Serious question.
The board is under no obligation to communicate with us at all.We are customers, and our sentimental attachment to the club ultimately counts for nothing.
Without our sentimental attachment there would literally be no club. That is a fact.
No, it isn't.
Football is not like any normal business. You go to watch Charlton because you are "Charlton". You don't have a choice. You are irrationally and emotionally attached to your club and you have no possibility of deciding that from now on Watford or whoever are the team for you. If you don't understand this sad and sometimes fantastic reality then you are not "Charlton" or indeed part of the football tribe but are just a fan of football.
From the sentimental to the hysterical. What on earth are you talking about, you have no choice in supporting Charlton? Every single one of us on here CHOSE to do so. @Henry Yes, any company would love to have customers as loyal as us fans. They know that regardless of the product's failings,lack of communication concerning said product's failings, we,as customers, will continue to buy it.
They are only too aware that the only loyalty that exists in a club is with the fans, who will continue to support them regardless of how shabblily we are treated.
Well done Hulse, excellent finish.
@Redskin. Do you genuinely believe that the majority of us have a choice who we support ? Serious question.
Serious question, does it matter? We all do and we're all being cut out of the loop. The question is what are you going to do about it?
Yes, I do. Regardless of where we live/lived,who our fathers /grandfathers supported etc we were ultimately presented with a choice. However, having made that choice, I agree. You are committed and there's no turning back...
Disagree. Yes, I had a choice, but it was an obvious one in that CAFC were my local Club and I could wlk there from Eltham as a youngster.
My son and step son had no choice in the decision whatsoever. They are both fanatical about the Club, with the step son wetting himself about getting involved with Red Division at Bristol City.
Yes I would happily replace the English model for the German club ownership one.
Well, though it won't solve our Sunday morning blues, the formation of a CAFC Supporters Trust is a first step towards that model, along with similar steps being taken at around 70 other league clubs.
Supporters nationally who belong to a Trust would be a far more powerful political lobby than the current FSF.
I had no choice at all. My old man dragged me there aged 5, insisted on passing me to the front over the heads of the crowd (which was a bit of a bastard because of the huge spaces on the terracing) etc. I love him for it though, bless the old bugger.
Yes, I do. Regardless of where we live/lived,who our fathers /grandfathers supported etc we were ultimately presented with a choice. However, having made that choice, I agree. You are committed and there's no turning back...
Well I made my "choice" when i was about 7-8 years old, and my Dad didn't sit me down with a spreadsheet of options considering the rival merits of Millwall and Palace, nor did we visit a price comparison site.
We have to accept that professional football is a business, with the ownership implications that go with it. And we are customers, however we are not ordinary customers with a free choice. Most football fans have emotional ties that cannot be easily broken. It's no good you deriding those ties because they are emotional and not rational. For many fans it is equivalent to citizenship. You can indeed choose to give up British citizenship and eventually become citizen of France if you wish but how many do that, even the half million Brits with property there?
What this means is that we are not just customers but stakeholders, and any football club owner who does not realise this will suffer consequences. I accept that most club owners in Britain have not fully realised this, so TJ isn't a standalone villain.
We all had a choice of which club to follow,but once you are bitten you have no choice but to follow the bug.Having got bitten some 45years ago we know we will follow Charlton Athletic too the grave. Off course the fans or the paying public are the true followers of football,the owners of are GREATclub now have no idea how powerful a force we can be.As the song goes If you know your history its a wonderful thing to see.
Yes, I do. Regardless of where we live/lived,who our fathers /grandfathers supported etc we were ultimately presented with a choice. However, having made that choice, I agree. You are committed and there's no turning back...
Well I made my "choice" when i was about 7-8 years old, and my Dad didn't sit me down with a spreadsheet of options considering the rival merits of Millwall and Palace, nor did we visit a price comparison site.
We have to accept that professional football is a business, with the ownership implications that go with it. And we are customers, however we are not ordinary customers with a free choice. Most football fans have emotional ties that cannot be easily broken. It's no good you deriding those ties because they are emotional and not rational. For many fans it is equivalent to citizenship. You can indeed choose to give up British citizenship and eventually become citizen of France if you wish but how many do that, even the half million Brits with property there?
What this means is that we are not just customers but stakeholders, and any football club owner who does not realise this will suffer consequences. I accept that most club owners in Britain have not fully realised this, so TJ isn't a standalone villain.
</blockquote
Nowhere in my posts have I 'derided ' the ties attached to supporting one's club, be they sentimental or otherwise.My own choice to support Charlton was based on any number of sentiments.
In your own pithy and humorous pastiche of TJ, you alluded to his attitude of 'You want to have say in the way this club's run, put your money on the table.' which I thought was pretty apposite. We can make all the demands we want as so called 'stakeholders ',yet the board is under no obligation to act upon them.
U have choices, even if you are never likely to support another club, a fully enaged support base via a trust could do a number of things including increase that loyalty through some form of ownership or at minimum increase involvement.
That could result in a number of tangible benefits, off the top of my head..
Converting others to fans Bringing friends and family Both increasing our fan base
Consoldating loyalty regardless of division we are in Higher take up of season tickets More merchandise revenue More cash for schemes like valley gold More organised and coordinated fan groups like Red Division, which would increase the quality of our support More away travellers
"In your own pithy and humorous pastiche of TJ, you alluded to his attitude of 'You want to have say in the way this club's run, put your money on the table.' which I thought was pretty apposite. We can make all the demands we want as so called 'stakeholders ',yet the board is under no obligation to act upon them."
OK, and that is why so many fans as stakeholders have formed Trusts, and some of them have gained equity in the clubs. And that is why all German clubs have at least 51% ownership by members. There remains the obstacle that a lot of English club owners wouldn't countenance offering even a 10% share in a club, or might disregard a shareholder that only had that amount.
On reflection I was wrong to accuse you directly of deriding our loyalty, and I apologise for that. What I rather mean is that our loyalty cannot be derided as meaning we put up with any old shit. Take Selhurst for example. For the first few months I refused to go. I crawled back, but resentfully, and I nearly gave up again until Voice of the Valley started up and renewed my sense of identity. The Board in 1987 didn't listen, and nearly destroyed the club as a result. Being a stakeholder means that we have a few red lines, but it also means that we are prepared to do far more than the typical customer - but only if we feel good about our club.
Comments
No, it isn't.
You constantLy say there is no problem and dismiss anyone who says anything diffierent.
But when cracks start to appear you try to blame the people who were warning you. Somehow you get to be right and they are wrong both ways because without any evidence or reasoning "they want Powell to go to be proved right".
As AFKA said total bollocks on your part.
No, it was exactly because they didn't want to see Powell sacked and didn't want to see the Club in a mess that they raised the alarm.
This is like you standing on the deck of the Titanic and you saying " there's no problem, you're making it all up". But when the Berg appers you suddenly start screaming " I bet you want us to hit that iceberg so you can say you were right"
Most big commercial business do everything they can to find out what their "customers" want and explain what they are doing.
As for Arsenal ignoring their fans wishes? Really? They gave their Trust a golden share. They have a Fans Forum that was the model for our now disappeared Fans Forum.
At Swansea the fans own 20% of the Club.
Yes you can suceed with a "fuck the fans, it's my Club" attitude but why would you want to do that? And what does that tell you about owners with that view?
As AFKA said loyal supporters are an asset and potential allies and shouldn't be ignored or disregarded. Listen to them and work with them. Tap into that knowledge and yes that cash.
Just look at what little Charlton Life has done. Paid for first team travel and mini-buses, shirt sponsorships and now we're buying another vehicle for the Acadmey. You know why? Because Paul Hart ASKED and he EXPLAINED why it was needed. Not that difficult to do.
Look at the £2m that gone into the Academy from Valley Gold. That is a real tangible benefit.
Look at the recent VIP scheme. "Customers" willing to pay five years ST money upfront. Would you pay Sainsbury's for five years groceries?
But the last VIP meeting was cancelled and still no new date set.
I'm a bit surprised you use Arsenal to support your overall argument. They at least have their Fanshare scheme, run by the Supporters Trust. Its far from the perfect model, but better than the one at Chelsea, where if Abramovic gets bored, or takes a dose of Polonium 210 with his sushi, the club will be immediately and royally NSS'ed.
What is your opinion on the German model of club ownership and management? If you watch ITV4s coverage of the Bundesliga you couldn't fail to be impressed by the full stadia, the topsy-turvy results and the sense that the Germans somehow nicked our beautiful game.
I accept that i know relatively little about what is going on at CAFC. However that is all the more reason for me to want to find out, and that is what I will continue to do, and I encourage every other true fan to do the same.
"You constantly say there is no problem"? Me?
If you can point to one post where I have said that then I will make the winning bid on every auction you want to start for the next year.
I await the retraction. Don't expect it mind you.
I did hear you Razil, its just that the words "might" and "help" make it a bit wishy washy. I fully understand that it maybe the only route and I'm 100% sure we would be worse of without it but, I was of a thinking more alternative.
From the sentimental to the hysterical. What on earth are you talking about, you have no choice in supporting Charlton? Every single one of us on here CHOSE to do so.
@Henry
Yes, any company would love to have customers as loyal as us fans. They know that regardless of the product's failings,lack of communication concerning said product's failings, we,as customers, will continue to buy it.
They are only too aware that the only loyalty that exists in a club is with the fans, who will continue to support them regardless of how shabblily we are treated.
Well done Hulse, excellent finish.
If you say you haven't said that then no need for me to check, I believe you.
I withdraw the comment and apologise.
Yes I would happily replace the English model for the German club ownership one.
In light of the current managerial situation , it makes me shudder every time I see it !!
( NB Nothing personal of course xx)
Yes, I do. Regardless of where we live/lived,who our fathers /grandfathers supported etc we were ultimately presented with a choice.
However, having made that choice, I agree.
You are committed and there's no turning back...
My son and step son had no choice in the decision whatsoever. They are both fanatical about the Club, with the step son wetting himself about getting involved with Red Division at Bristol City.
Supporters nationally who belong to a Trust would be a far more powerful political lobby than the current FSF.
We have to accept that professional football is a business, with the ownership implications that go with it. And we are customers, however we are not ordinary customers with a free choice. Most football fans have emotional ties that cannot be easily broken. It's no good you deriding those ties because they are emotional and not rational. For many fans it is equivalent to citizenship. You can indeed choose to give up British citizenship and eventually become citizen of France if you wish but how many do that, even the half million Brits with property there?
What this means is that we are not just customers but stakeholders, and any football club owner who does not realise this will suffer consequences. I accept that most club owners in Britain have not fully realised this, so TJ isn't a standalone villain.
Off course the fans or the paying public are the true followers of football,the owners of are GREATclub now have no idea how powerful a force we can be.As the song goes If you know your history its a wonderful thing to see.
The point of the article and other posts is that it is in their best interests to at least listen.
It is what big successful corporations do.
That could result in a number of tangible benefits, off the top of my head..
Converting others to fans
Bringing friends and family
Both increasing our fan base
Consoldating loyalty regardless of division we are in
Higher take up of season tickets
More merchandise revenue
More cash for schemes like valley gold
More organised and coordinated fan groups like Red Division, which would increase the quality of our support
More away travellers
OK, and that is why so many fans as stakeholders have formed Trusts, and some of them have gained equity in the clubs. And that is why all German clubs have at least 51% ownership by members. There remains the obstacle that a lot of English club owners wouldn't countenance offering even a 10% share in a club, or might disregard a shareholder that only had that amount.
On reflection I was wrong to accuse you directly of deriding our loyalty, and I apologise for that. What I rather mean is that our loyalty cannot be derided as meaning we put up with any old shit. Take Selhurst for example. For the first few months I refused to go. I crawled back, but resentfully, and I nearly gave up again until Voice of the Valley started up and renewed my sense of identity. The Board in 1987 didn't listen, and nearly destroyed the club as a result. Being a stakeholder means that we have a few red lines, but it also means that we are prepared to do far more than the typical customer - but only if we feel good about our club.