The board can operate in isolation but they won't then be able to count on the fans to pull through in the bad times and, more importantly, call on volunteers to spread the word to fill the empty seats when we are mid-table (dream on!) As far as I'm concerned, the quicker we get back to the structure of the 90s the better... setting up the trust is step 1 on that journey
The board can operate in isolation but they won't then be able to count on the fans to pull through in the bad times and, more importantly, call on volunteers to spread the word to fill the empty seats when we are mid-table (dream on!) As far as I'm concerned, the quicker we get back to the structure of the 90s the better... setting up the trust is step 1 on that journey
Ben and Red, 100% spot on, but.....
I think what everyone here has overlooked is that the TJ brigade arent planning a long term strategy, its all based on a quick "in and out" profit grab. Therefore they dont give a flying f what we as fans want or need. They are in a great place as far as the fan base is concerned....16-17K every game, 20k+ for bigger games, they dont have to try.
We wouldnt have been such an attractive proposition back in the Old Valley, or Sellout Park/Trumpton days when we were lucky to have 5-6K at games, times have changed and we have to deal with the here and now.
Sadly we can all bang on about a lack of communication and the need for a trust or a fans forum, but Im afraid they have made it abundantly clear by their silence that its not part of their remit. Be prepared for a far bumpier ride than many of us expected after the highs of last season, its messy now and I fully expect it to get far messier sooner rather than later. The trust is a step in the right direction if supported by the football club board, but dont expect this lot to welcome you with open arms.
We haven't necessarily overlooked anything, the Trust is for the long haul, it should operate as best it can in whatever environment it finds itself - that's the whole point in my view.
Portsmouth and Palace are two examples of Trusts that initially met with hostile non-recognition by the Boards at the time, but are now in much stronger positions. And that's off the top of my head. There will be loads more. Trusts tend to be founded at clubs where there is disquiet about how the Board is running things. That is probably why we currently don't have a Trust and the Nigels do. For years we collectively thought we didnt need one.
PA, Correct me if I'm wrong but do the German clubs not play in stadia that is/was funded by Public money?
If I've got that wrong then ignore what I'm about to say.
If the stadium is free for the clubs then it makes full sense for the local residents to own a large share of the clubs. After all it was their taxes that paid for the stadium. In England the stadium is the most valuable asset for most of the clubs. Even if it's just redevelopment value, most clubs have the greatest debt secured on the stadium.
Unless the clubs are going to receive significant investment (either public or private) they are never going to give up shares in the club, and nor should they.
The model that the current owners at Charlton seem to be using is that they buy the club cheap, add value (from promotions) then sell it at a profit. If they give shares away then they are giving away their potential profit, and probably the motivation to come in 'save' the club in the first place.
PA, please don't think this is an attack on you or the Trust, I just don't know how the 'fans ownership' model can work in England without massive injections into the Trusts. Anyone that has the millions it would take to buy shares at that level would probably not choose to let their investment be controlled by a group of fans that are, frankly, completely uncontrollable. I know you would say that that is the idea of the Trust (independence), but that is completely at odds with how millionaires invest their money, particularly very large sums of it.
A sizeable chunk of TV money paid to take the Valley from 15,000 up to 27,000 and that's all good. under the English system clubs lose millions and players / agents make millions leaving only a small % for grass roots, academy and community ... so I'm all for changing that... whether its club by club or fair play rules ... or maybe both?!
PA, Correct me if I'm wrong but do the German clubs not play in stadia that is/was funded by Public money?
If I've got that wrong then ignore what I'm about to say.
If the stadium is free for the clubs then it makes full sense for the local residents to own a large share of the clubs. After all it was their taxes that paid for the stadium. In England the stadium is the most valuable asset for most of the clubs. Even if it's just redevelopment value, most clubs have the greatest debt secured on the stadium.
Unless the clubs are going to receive significant investment (either public or private) they are never going to give up shares in the club, and nor should they.
The model that the current owners at Charlton seem to be using is that they buy the club cheap, add value (from promotions) then sell it at a profit. If they give shares away then they are giving away their potential profit, and probably the motivation to come in 'save' the club in the first place.
PA, please don't think this is an attack on you or the Trust, I just don't know how the 'fans ownership' model can work in England without massive injections into the Trusts. Anyone that has the millions it would take to buy shares at that level would probably not choose to let their investment be controlled by a group of fans that are, frankly, completely uncontrollable. I know you would say that that is the idea of the Trust (independence), but that is completely at odds with how millionaires invest their money, particularly very large sums of it.
During the early 90s the Charlton board grew considerably, as new investors came on board. I don't know what the amount was (£100k, £200k) but there were a remarkable number of well off individuals who came forward with money, and became a director or associate director, I guess at the time Charlton was a very inspiring business to be around, and Murray/Simons etc were happy to have an open and large board. By contrast, our current owners prefer to keep full control, so it would be difficult for outside voices to have much of a say?
It's hard to exactly understand why the owners bought the club, do clubs really sell at a profit, even if they get to the PL, once you factor in the large budget needed to run the club in the meantime?
I think TJ believed (and convinced others) that he could make a profit on buying the club, sourcing better players on the cheap and then selling once we'd got into the Premier League. Incidentally I don't believe he will be able to do this, but if Slater's friend was bankrolling the whole think he had nothing to lose by trying.
In my line of work I have met a lot (and I mean thirty plus) people that made significant amounts of money on property during a massive increase in house prices and they believe that they are very clever entrepreneurs that can turn their hand to anything. Every one of them that has gone on to try their hand at something else has lost a fortune. It's easy to make a lot of money when the average price of the commodity you deal in increases 300% in ten years. Buying run down properties, especially through Agents that you 'look after', doing them up and selling them for a profit is easy when house prices are rising at c. 12% per annum, interest rates are c. 4%. and inflation is kept under 2.5%.
Buying a football club that has been on the decline for half a decade, with massive debts, is not quite as easy an investment to earn a return on.
Having said that most of the posters on here seem to be sure that they know the answer, so why should TJ believe that he has it?
So far there seems to be no simple answer. I have discovered that:
The Allianz Arena was originally owned 50:50 by Bayern and TSV, but TSV sold out to Bayern because of financial reasons, and now rent long term
Nurnberg's stadium is owned by the city
Dortmund did own their massive stadium but due to financial mis-management sold it to a real estate trust in 2003
It is true that various clubs will have received State assistance to upgrade their stadia for WC2008 (But that would have happened here to clubs as diverse as Plymouth and MKD (!) had we won our bid).
So it is a mixed bag, and one I need to do more research on, I'm waiting for some answers from people in the know. The finding though is that majority fan-owned clubs exist regardless whether they own or lease.
Comments
As far as I'm concerned, the quicker we get back to the structure of the 90s the better... setting up the trust is step 1 on that journey
I think what everyone here has overlooked is that the TJ brigade arent planning a long term strategy, its all based on a quick "in and out" profit grab. Therefore they dont give a flying f what we as fans want or need. They are in a great place as far as the fan base is concerned....16-17K every game, 20k+ for bigger games, they dont have to try.
We wouldnt have been such an attractive proposition back in the Old Valley, or Sellout Park/Trumpton days when we were lucky to have 5-6K at games, times have changed and we have to deal with the here and now.
Sadly we can all bang on about a lack of communication and the need for a trust or a fans forum, but Im afraid they have made it abundantly clear by their silence that its not part of their remit. Be prepared for a far bumpier ride than many of us expected after the highs of last season, its messy now and I fully expect it to get far messier sooner rather than later. The trust is a step in the right direction if supported by the football club board, but dont expect this lot to welcome you with open arms.
If I've got that wrong then ignore what I'm about to say.
If the stadium is free for the clubs then it makes full sense for the local residents to own a large share of the clubs. After all it was their taxes that paid for the stadium. In England the stadium is the most valuable asset for most of the clubs. Even if it's just redevelopment value, most clubs have the greatest debt secured on the stadium.
Unless the clubs are going to receive significant investment (either public or private) they are never going to give up shares in the club, and nor should they.
The model that the current owners at Charlton seem to be using is that they buy the club cheap, add value (from promotions) then sell it at a profit. If they give shares away then they are giving away their potential profit, and probably the motivation to come in 'save' the club in the first place.
PA, please don't think this is an attack on you or the Trust, I just don't know how the 'fans ownership' model can work in England without massive injections into the Trusts. Anyone that has the millions it would take to buy shares at that level would probably not choose to let their investment be controlled by a group of fans that are, frankly, completely uncontrollable. I know you would say that that is the idea of the Trust (independence), but that is completely at odds with how millionaires invest their money, particularly very large sums of it.
Good question about the German clubs' stadia, which I need to look into
I'll reply more fully when I know the answer, (and the possible implications)
It's hard to exactly understand why the owners bought the club, do clubs really sell at a profit, even if they get to the PL, once you factor in the large budget needed to run the club in the meantime?
In my line of work I have met a lot (and I mean thirty plus) people that made significant amounts of money on property during a massive increase in house prices and they believe that they are very clever entrepreneurs that can turn their hand to anything. Every one of them that has gone on to try their hand at something else has lost a fortune. It's easy to make a lot of money when the average price of the commodity you deal in increases 300% in ten years. Buying run down properties, especially through Agents that you 'look after', doing them up and selling them for a profit is easy when house prices are rising at c. 12% per annum, interest rates are c. 4%. and inflation is kept under 2.5%.
Buying a football club that has been on the decline for half a decade, with massive debts, is not quite as easy an investment to earn a return on.
Having said that most of the posters on here seem to be sure that they know the answer, so why should TJ believe that he has it?
(Distracted after starting my post and subsequently beaten to it by about an hour).
Do German clubs own their own stadia?
So far there seems to be no simple answer. I have discovered that:
The Allianz Arena was originally owned 50:50 by Bayern and TSV, but TSV sold out to Bayern because of financial reasons, and now rent long term
Nurnberg's stadium is owned by the city
Dortmund did own their massive stadium but due to financial mis-management sold it to a real estate trust in 2003
It is true that various clubs will have received State assistance to upgrade their stadia for WC2008 (But that would have happened here to clubs as diverse as Plymouth and MKD (!) had we won our bid).
So it is a mixed bag, and one I need to do more research on, I'm waiting for some answers from people in the know. The finding though is that majority fan-owned clubs exist regardless whether they own or lease.