Stories like that add nothing to the debate, as nobody who is anti-CP is suggesting people like him are not the lowest of society but it's much better to have guilty people alive in what should be a terrible prison enviroment IMO then more innocent people dead, which always happens in a system of CP.
I couldn't disagree with you more! Get rid, prison costs too much, and in most cases is no deterrent, and until a life sentence means life, scum like the one in the link should be strung up! End of!
I wonder how many people pro death penalty and happy to dismiss the problem of innocent people getting caught up in the system would be so casual if it was them or someone close to them on the receiving end?
Stories like that add nothing to the debate, as nobody who is anti-CP is suggesting people like him are not the lowest of society but it's much better to have guilty people alive in what should be a terrible prison enviroment IMO then more innocent people dead, which always happens in a system of CP.
I couldn't disagree with you more! Get rid, prison costs too much, and in most cases is no deterrent, and until a life sentence means life, scum like the one in the link should be strung up! End of!
So your really ok with causing More innocent people to be murdered in the name of every citizen & the state, so we can get revenge for the murder of other innocents?
I wonder how many people pro death penalty and happy to dismiss the problem of innocent people getting caught up in the system would be so casual if it was them or someone close to them on the receiving end?
I don't think anyone has seriously made a comment dismissing it. If the guilty party was 100% guilty then I am pro death sentence. The one thing i would like is that we thought about the victim and their family a lot more than the criminal in this country.
I wonder how many people pro death penalty and happy to dismiss the problem of innocent people getting caught up in the system would be so casual if it was them or someone close to them on the receiving end?
I don't think anyone has seriously made a comment dismissing it. If the guilty party was 100% guilty then I am pro death sentence. The one thing i would like is that we thought about the victim and their family a lot more than the criminal in this country.
Problem is some people have been declared 100% guilty when there innocent, the only way CP ever works is in a society where the police are incapable of ever making a mistake and where criminal case lawyers are incapable of using "tricks" to win.
I wonder how many people pro death penalty and happy to dismiss the problem of innocent people getting caught up in the system would be so casual if it was them or someone close to them on the receiving end?
If they were guilty beyond any doubt, then so be it, I personally wouldn't commit pre med murder if we had cp cause I wouldn't wanna be hung! I'm not saying hang every single murderer, just those found guilty of certain crimes beyond any doubt!
I wonder how many people pro death penalty and happy to dismiss the problem of innocent people getting caught up in the system would be so casual if it was them or someone close to them on the receiving end?
I don't think anyone has seriously made a comment dismissing it. If the guilty party was 100% guilty then I am pro death sentence. The one thing i would like is that we thought about the victim and their family a lot more than the criminal in this country.
Problem is some people have been declared 100% guilty when there innocent, the only way CP ever works is in a society where the police are incapable of ever making a mistake and where criminal case lawyers are incapable of using "tricks" to win.
If we have people commiting murders infront of 100's of witnesses or on video footage id say that was 100% guilty.
Perhaps it wouldn't work but it doesn't stop me from wishing those type of animals should be put down as any sort of life is too good for them.
People have been beyond any doubt and then found to have been innocent. People make false confessions, witnesses lie, science makes mistakes and is continuously improving/changing. The other problem is one persons choice on who should be given the death penalty differs from someone else's opinion, so who's is right? If you decide one person qualifies for CP it's difficult to argue against someone else who thinks someone else should qualify as well.
And saying you wouldn't commit pre med murder if there was CP is, with respect, ridiculous. Firstly because you're saying you would commit pre med murder now because there isn't and surely the punishment shouldn't be the factor in whether you choose to do something like that or not? Secondly, and obviously, Countries have CP and it doesn't stop anyone committing these crimes. And most importantly, how do you know you wouldn't? How do you know what set of circumstances may happen and what state of mind you may end up in (and I don't mean mentally ill). Shit happens to people and sometimes it is 'there but for the grace of God' as they say.
I used to be pro death penalty, yep string 'em up, as much pain as possible and twice the amount on Tuesdays and can fully understand why people agree with it. But as I've got older, had lots of experience working with the public and bad people and the effects on individuals and society I've thought about it more and I'm now anti.
And saying you wouldn't commit pre med murder if there was CP is, with respect, ridiculous. Firstly because you're saying you would commit pre med murder now because there isn't and surely the punishment shouldn't be the factor in whether you choose to do something like that or not? Secondly, and obviously, Countries have CP and it doesn't stop anyone committing these crimes. And most importantly, how do you know you wouldn't? How do you know what set of circumstances may happen and what state of mind you may end up in (and I don't mean mentally ill). Shit happens to people and sometimes it is 'there but for the grace of God' as they say.
I think you're getting manslaughter confused with pre-med murder pal! What I'm saying is that those who plan and then carry out the murder of someone else (pre meditated murder) and where there is enough evidence should get topped. If someone gets killed during a punch up (manslaughter), then of course the death penalty would be too harsh!
Of course I know that I wouldn't purposefully murder someone, or if I did, I'd know the consequences.
if you was a relo of the two women that 15 year old had murdered would you want him to be released because some "expert" said he had now been rehabilitated ? bollox would you.
And saying you wouldn't commit pre med murder if there was CP is, with respect, ridiculous. Firstly because you're saying you would commit pre med murder now because there isn't and surely the punishment shouldn't be the factor in whether you choose to do something like that or not? Secondly, and obviously, Countries have CP and it doesn't stop anyone committing these crimes. And most importantly, how do you know you wouldn't? How do you know what set of circumstances may happen and what state of mind you may end up in (and I don't mean mentally ill). Shit happens to people and sometimes it is 'there but for the grace of God' as they say.
I think you're getting manslaughter confused with pre-med murder pal! What I'm saying is that those who plan and then carry out the murder of someone else (pre meditated murder) and where there is enough evidence should get topped. If someone gets killed during a punch up (manslaughter), then of course the death penalty would be too harsh!
Of course I know that I wouldn't purposefully murder someone, or if I did, I'd know the consequences.
I'm not confusing anything although I can see why you have read it that way. Events aren't as simple as pre med and manslaughter, there are lots of grey areas and outside influences. I just know that people like to pigeon hole human mentality and behaviour into nice neat boxes that are easier for them to accept and understand though are very rarely adequate. And no you don't know what you would or wouldn't do in the future. You know that with your life and environment the way it is at this moment you wouldn't; That's all any of us can know. Things change for people.
Anyway I can understand you view and respect it, I used to feel the same. Maybe if I had something dreadful happen to someone close to me then I would go back to feeling like you but then it would be a view made by emotion and with a subject like this the emotion has to be limited. There are too many personal opinions involved when it comes to who should and who shouldn't qualify for CP and no-one can say who's opinion is right or wrong as it is so personal. That's the main reason I don't agree with CP any more.
The thing is, the 'contract' over the abolition of the death penalty has been broken.
When the DP was abolished, it gained political support on the proviso that life sentences would mean life and a long sentence would be used instead of the DP. All that has now gone. I read in the Grauniad the other day about the average 'life sentence' being in the order of 12 years. This is a joke.
A very strong argument against the death penalty (used here) is that one innocent person dying as a result is still too much to justify 99 executions of the guilty. However, due to the above reduction in sentences and the presence of a number of gullible people in the system who will think nothing of releasing a prisoner who claims to be reformed if they say the right things (I had a very interesting conversation with someone involved in a rehabilitation charity a couple of years back - he told me how some prisoners played gullible 'bleeding hearts' for fools and laughed behind their backs whilst manipulating them using tried and tested means that any prisoner with half a brain can try on and sometimes be successful with), we now have this situation in reverse. So, I say to you that if even one murderer is released to kill again, then we should never let any more out. Except, it doesn't seem to work that way, does it?
So, in the USA, right wingers kill people through capital punishment. However, here in the UK, it's the bleeding hearts of the left that have blood on their hands. People might be less eager for a return to capital punishment if the sentences in this country hadn't become such a joke and the rights of criminals weren't considered more important than the protection of the public.
As said above, there have been so many people who have been wrongly convicted who are now dead, or have been subsequently pardoned and released, that this in itself is a good argument for not having capital punishment.
I can understand the argument that for an incredibly heinous crime that has been proven without a shadow of a doubt it appears that 'hang em high' is what they deserve. However, it's not as simple as that is it? There have been too many instances where cases have been proven 'without a shadow of a doubt' (even supposedly heinous and slam dunk cases) that have been subsequently appealed against and disproven at a later point in time.
I think even having the risk of getting it wrong once is enough to disqualify capital punishment as an option. I also think any civilised society should be able to find better alternatives to capital punishment.
So if that lad that went on the rampage with the guns had've been arrested insted of blowing his own brains out, you don't think he'd deserved the death penalty?
So if that lad that went on the rampage with the guns had've been arrested insted of blowing his own brains out, you don't think he'd deserved the death penalty?
In my very humble opinion. I think that the lad that went on the gun rampage was mentally ill and yes should be kept away from society but not punished as such. Treated in a secure unit. I suppose it comes down to whether or not you believe that people that do terrible things are normal like us but evil ? Or do terrible things because they are not normal and should be treated as mentally ill.
Big Rob. Yep, as SHG said, the lad who went on that rampage was seriously mentally ill so, no, I don't think he would have deserved the death penalty. For me it's not that black and white.
Evil or mentally ill ? Can someone do something evil without being mentally ill ? Was Hitler evil or mentally ill ? Or his henchmen ? I have no idea what the answer is.
Evil or mentally ill ? Can someone do something evil without being mentally ill ? Was Hitler evil or mentally ill ? Or his henchmen ? I have no idea what the answer is.
That's the thing, using that logic, it makes "excuses" for every murderer, rapist etc known to man, including the likes of Hitler!
Evil or mentally ill ? Can someone do something evil without being mentally ill ? Was Hitler evil or mentally ill ? Or his henchmen ? I have no idea what the answer is.
That's the thing, using that logic, it makes "excuses" for every murderer, rapist etc known to man, including the likes of Hitler!
It's not making excuses. They've still committed the atrocity or whatever it is so there's no excuse. It's the capital punishment thing that I don't agree with. I think there's better ways of dealing with it.
It's not making excuses. They've still committed the atrocity or whatever it is so there's no excuse. It's the capital punishment thing that I don't agree with. I think there's better ways of dealing with it.
By saying that maybe they're mentally ill, is excusing them. It's saying it's not their fault, because they're mentally ill.
Big Rob. I think I've already said I just don't agree with capital punishment regardless. Let's just agree to disagree eh m8. :-) Incidentially, I used to be more in the camp of 'an eye for an eye' but what with life's events as I've got older I've changed my view.
They should be used for medical testing of cures for disease etc. Sod using animals - use criminals. Inject whatever you want into these guys in the hope it might help cure cancer etc down the line. They don't get killed (keeps the anti cp brigade happy), and it's helping future generations hopefully live longer. No brainer for me.
There is an unwritten rule in debating that as soon as anyone uses Hitler or the Nazi's as an example to prove their point then they've lost the arguement........Good night :-)
Comments
Get rid, prison costs too much, and in most cases is no deterrent, and until a life sentence means life, scum like the one in the link should be strung up!
End of!
Depends on the prisoners attitude, but capital punishment possibly offers a quick way out to long lasting psychological misery and regret.
If the guilty party was 100% guilty then I am pro death sentence.
The one thing i would like is that we thought about the victim and their family a lot more than the criminal in this country.
Perhaps it wouldn't work but it doesn't stop me from wishing those type of animals should be put down as any sort of life is too good for them.
The other problem is one persons choice on who should be given the death penalty differs from someone else's opinion, so who's is right? If you decide one person qualifies for CP it's difficult to argue against someone else who thinks someone else should qualify as well.
And saying you wouldn't commit pre med murder if there was CP is, with respect, ridiculous. Firstly because you're saying you would commit pre med murder now because there isn't and surely the punishment shouldn't be the factor in whether you choose to do something like that or not? Secondly, and obviously, Countries have CP and it doesn't stop anyone committing these crimes. And most importantly, how do you know you wouldn't? How do you know what set of circumstances may happen and what state of mind you may end up in (and I don't mean mentally ill). Shit happens to people and sometimes it is 'there but for the grace of God' as they say.
I used to be pro death penalty, yep string 'em up, as much pain as possible and twice the amount on Tuesdays and can fully understand why people agree with it. But as I've got older, had lots of experience working with the public and bad people and the effects on individuals and society I've thought about it more and I'm now anti.
Of course I know that I wouldn't purposefully murder someone, or if I did, I'd know the consequences.
I just know that people like to pigeon hole human mentality and behaviour into nice neat boxes that are easier for them to accept and understand though are very rarely adequate. And no you don't know what you would or wouldn't do in the future. You know that with your life and environment the way it is at this moment you wouldn't; That's all any of us can know. Things change for people.
Anyway I can understand you view and respect it, I used to feel the same. Maybe if I had something dreadful happen to someone close to me then I would go back to feeling like you but then it would be a view made by emotion and with a subject like this the emotion has to be limited. There are too many personal opinions involved when it comes to who should and who shouldn't qualify for CP and no-one can say who's opinion is right or wrong as it is so personal. That's the main reason I don't agree with CP any more.
When the DP was abolished, it gained political support on the proviso that life sentences would mean life and a long sentence would be used instead of the DP. All that has now gone. I read in the Grauniad the other day about the average 'life sentence' being in the order of 12 years. This is a joke.
A very strong argument against the death penalty (used here) is that one innocent person dying as a result is still too much to justify 99 executions of the guilty. However, due to the above reduction in sentences and the presence of a number of gullible people in the system who will think nothing of releasing a prisoner who claims to be reformed if they say the right things (I had a very interesting conversation with someone involved in a rehabilitation charity a couple of years back - he told me how some prisoners played gullible 'bleeding hearts' for fools and laughed behind their backs whilst manipulating them using tried and tested means that any prisoner with half a brain can try on and sometimes be successful with), we now have this situation in reverse. So, I say to you that if even one murderer is released to kill again, then we should never let any more out. Except, it doesn't seem to work that way, does it?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16638227
So, in the USA, right wingers kill people through capital punishment. However, here in the UK, it's the bleeding hearts of the left that have blood on their hands. People might be less eager for a return to capital punishment if the sentences in this country hadn't become such a joke and the rights of criminals weren't considered more important than the protection of the public.
I can understand the argument that for an incredibly heinous crime that has been proven without a shadow of a doubt it appears that 'hang em high' is what they deserve. However, it's not as simple as that is it? There have been too many instances where cases have been proven 'without a shadow of a doubt' (even supposedly heinous and slam dunk cases) that have been subsequently appealed against and disproven at a later point in time.
I think even having the risk of getting it wrong once is enough to disqualify capital punishment as an option. I also think any civilised society should be able to find better alternatives to capital punishment.
Good night!
Sod using animals - use criminals. Inject whatever you want into these guys in the hope it might help cure cancer etc down the line.
They don't get killed (keeps the anti cp brigade happy), and it's helping future generations hopefully live longer.
No brainer for me.