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Car dealer - CL legal eagles

edited March 2013 in Not Sports Related
Father in law bought a motor off a dealer who advertised it on auto trader as a dealer.

He bought the car then sneaked in sold as seen/private sale. My fil is a bit daft...

Anyway you can guess what happens, a month or so later a piston blows and its knackered - sorry not a mechanic

Anyway we go back to the guy and he tells us to do one.

We then threaten him with a letter saying he acted as a dealer.

Suddenly he's playing ball and saying as a good will gesture he will look at it and undertake repairs if possible.

Anyway he does some apparent repairs but not the real problem which he wants us to pay him for 6-700 quid

We say not good enough sort it or we go to court.

He then threatens to sue us for the cost of his 'repair' work which was given as a gesture of goodwill.

Thoughts? Our current thoughts are one more attempt slap him with another heavy letter. The court if no joy.
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Comments

  • How much was the car
  • 1800
  • edited March 2013
    From what I can remember, if a person is acting as a Dealer then the car is automatically covered for 6 months in the eyes of the law even if cover is not offered as part of the deal.
    I cannot remember the Case Law that covers it though
  • Yup agree, couldn't believe he thought he cd sue us for something he offered in goodwill.. He's an idiot. I'll post one of his emails soon
  • Razil I have just emailed my mate who's in the car trade I will let you know what he says and post it on here
  • Case law (Rogers v Parrish 1987) has put a limit of 6 months on the time you can successfully reject a car and obtain a full refund, though lesser refunds, taking account of mileage covered, may be obtained outside that period.
  • Speak to trading standards at the local authority
  • I don't think the authorities would take too kindly to advertising as a Dealer but then writing up the contract as Private - Sold as Seen. I would say he wouldn't have a case in small claims. Basically, he lied to your father in Law.
  • Just got off the phone to my mate who has said to go to citzens advice ASAP with all the documents including the advert if you got it as he said the consumer has more rights now in regards to this .Without the full information he can't properly say but he did say that he has admitted liability as he offered to take a look at it .Hope this helps best of luck keep us all informed
  • Call Auto Trader and explain the situation to them, they might be interested and might offer some advice.
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  • Send the boys round
  • Do as Beckboy says
  • Have a look at the "Speed, Plod & The Law" section on pistonheads.com. I'm sure there's been a recent discussion on this and some traffic law specialists usually participate in the discussions. May be something on Pepipoo as well.
  • Was it paid for with credit? If he paid by a credit card or signed a finance agreement you are able to hold the finance provider equally liable. Let me know if so and I can tell you what to do.
  • sadly not it was cash, I will post his email in a minute - seems to have confounded himself..

  • Subject: Re: Renault Kangoo Van

    Dear Ms. Razil

    At the time of sale, the vehicle was in good condition, as advertised and
    your father had no problems with the vehicle for two months prior to the
    'problem'.

    We will pick up the vehicle, next week, from the address given, to be
    arranged with your father, as requested. On collection, we will require a
    signature from your father, agreeing to the removal of his vehicle to our
    premises for inspection and repair.

    As the vehicle was a private sale, it was not sold with warranty. Your
    father was fully aware of this at the time of the sale. However, in this
    case, as a gesture of goodwill, I am prepared to offer you 3 months
    warranty.

    Please note, we are not rebuilding the engine, but will repair the fault on
    diagnosis so that the vehicle can be driven away in the same condition in
    which it was purchased. We will not be doing any extra work on the vehicle
    above and beyond this problem.

    Referring to the independent inspection that you requested; we will not be
    paying for this as we have been in the trade of repairing and servicing
    vehicles for 33 years, with many long standing, satisfied customers. As you
    will note from your mechanics report, no one has been able to pin point the
    exact problem - that is why we have offered to inspect the vehicle for you
    and diagnose the fault.

    We feel that in this case, your father has been unfortunate as sometimes
    faults do occur to vehicles that no mechanic, however qualified or
    experienced, would be able to predict.

    We hope the above meets with your approval and want to bring an end to this
    matter as much as you do. We await your reply.

    Regards





    ----- Original Message -----

    Subject: Re: Renault Kangoo Van -


    Dear


    To avoid any confusion please let me clarify once more that what we
    require from you is a vehicle in good condition as advertised, this
    vehicle clearly was not hence the problems.


    We will therefore accept one of the following from you ­ a full refund, a
    replacement vehicle with 3 month warranty, or a repaired vehicle to our
    satisfaction and independently checked with a 3 month warranty.


    If you would like to inspect the vehicle for the purpose or repairing it,
    or clarifying the problem, our offer remains open to you as stated


  • seems to have offered us a warranty, then a repair to good standard, then backtracks a bit
  • Razil do you still have the original advert ? .My mate said he has by rights 3 attempts to rectify the problem or you can demand a full refund .If its ok il forward the reply you received on here to my mate see what he thinks .But do go to citzens advice ASAP
  • we have don't worry in fact we have submitted court papers.

    I will do him a final email, and yes we do have auto trader advert and their backing
  • Is it just me, or has he shot himself in the foot somewhat by claiming it was a 'private sale', then going on to say 'we have been in the trade of repairing and servicing vehicles for 33 years'?
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  • we have let him attempt repair email coming shortly on that.. but the fact that he has broken the law, why should we trust him to do a repair properly?

    Also part of it hang on whether he had an indendepent check on the vehicle, an MOT by his company (I think) doesn't count as that I would suggest and that was a couple of months prior to the sale.
  • Also an MOT is focussed purely on whether the vehicle is roadworthy (i.e. safe to drive), not on whether it is mechanically sound, so I would imagine it counts for very little.
  • Dear

    I hope you are well.

    With reference to our telephone conversation last week regarding updating you on your Renault Kangoo van, I advised you that the vehicle was starting and running fine, but was still smoking slightly and I was awaiting an automotive electrician to undertake a computerised diagnosis on the vehicle.

    This was carried out on Friday 22nd February and as hoped, no faults were identified. However, he did advise us that the white smoke was caused by the diesel injectors overfuelling (this is not identified on a computerised diagnosis). This, he believes, was the cause of number 3 piston failing initially, but to be sure, the injectors would need to be tested by a specialist. We have also sought advice from several Renault diesel specialists and a local engineering firm, who initially inspected the pistons and they have all agreed with this diagnosis.

    The engineers have all been in agreement that the problem with the diesel injectors could have arisen at anytime and more to the point, had they been faulty at the time of purchase, the vehicle would NOT have passed an MOT test and would clearly not have been able to be driven without smoking heavily. This is conclusive evidence that at the time of purchase, the vehicle was not suffering from the problem which resulted in the breakdown.

    In our email to yourselves dated 28.01.13, we advised that we would identify and rectify the problem with number 3 piston only. As you will see from the attached photos, we have replaced all four pistons with new ones and have also replaced several other items. For your information, below is a list of the work that we have carried out so far (at no charge to you) along with other costs: towing £80.00, 4 new pistons £384.00, one set of cylinder head bolts £25.00, head gasket £20.00, exhaust manifold gasket £12.00, oil filter £6.00, engine oil £20.00, sump gasket £15.00, anti freeze £9.00, diagnosis charge £60.00, making a total of £631.00. In addition to this is my labour charge which I am not claiming for. The costs, if it were a paying job, would be £800.00 in labour alone. This you can confirm with any garage who undertake similar work.

    Given the free labour and money actually spent on this vehicle to date, I am not prepared to purchase any additional parts, as I feel we have gone above and beyond our gesture of goodwill. I am sure you will understand this too, having concluded that the fault arose after the sale of the vehicle.

    Although the pistons have been replaced, the injectors would need to be checked and, if faulty, replaced with new ones to avoid the same problem occuring again.

    We had a specialist quote £22.50 per injector, to check the operation of each one, making a total for all four injectors of £90.00. If they are found to be faulty and overfuelling as diagnosed, the vehicle would require a new set of injectors costing £460.32 (this is a trade price to me), followed by a ‘programming’ procedure at an additional cost of £60.00 by a specialist.

    As a final gesture of goodwill we would be prepared to fit these injectors free of charge, provided you agree to pay for the injector testing, the new injectors and the programming.

    We feel that as you used and drove the vehicle for two months, covering a distance of 2,300 miles and as we have already spent a considerable amount of time and money purchasing and installing the parts, it is a fair request to expect these costs to be covered by yourselves, so that we can complete the work, return the vehicle and draw this matter to a close.

    We have attached several pictures, so you can see the new parts that have been fitted.

    We hope you are in agreement with this and look forward to hearing from you, before we proceed any further. Of course you are welcome to collect the vehicle as it stands and employ your own mechanic, at your own expense, to install your own injectors if you wish. One further option, is to collect the vehicle and drive it as it is, however we would not recommend this option as we could not guarantee how far you will get and the engine could be severely damaged.

    Regards



  • currently the vehicle is overfueling, I'm no mechanic but this may be due to a bodge to make it idle, when its f*cked..

    Note he says earlier he will return it in the sale condition, and warranty it, then he backtracks when he realises it needs major works.
  • edited March 2013
    Well it seems to me he has tried to rectify the problem but hasn't to your satisfaction demand a refund you given him plenty of chances get Citzens advice involved if you haven't already
  • Another option would be to tell him you will take it to the papers don't think he would want bad publicity for the sake of £600 odd pound .Just a thought ?
  • am determined to nail him, believe me
  • I may be wrong but when I studied contract law at University (all be it not in the motor trade) there was some condition about your right to demand a refund once you'd accepted a repair as an alternative. I think this was mainly in reference to new items, not second hand but it might be relevant here.

    The truth is that if the car had been sold with a three month warranty you would have been covered. If he can, legally, sell a car owned by himself without acting as a dealer then you have no case. I seriously doubt that he is really doing what he is for goodwill so he must expect to be held accountable for repairing the car. I doubt that you will get a full refund, and you may find that if he can stall you until the sale is three months old the warranty that he should have given you is over anyway.

    Just my thoughts.
  • he didnt accept liability to cover his arse, so the goodwill repair as he called it which didn't fix the problem wouldn't count I suspect. he also broke the law advertising the sale as dealer than passing it off as a private sale/sold as seen.
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