I'm surprised with you Addickted. Most jobs carry a huge degree of pressure and stress these days, for varying reasons.
We don't all have to serve on the front line or save someones life to have sleepless nights worrying you'll have a job in three months and be able to support you family. Everyones pressure and stress is unique, regardless of the 'bigger picture'
.........Doing this whilst knowing some ****** is sat behind a desk in a air conditioned office taking 15% of what you are out there earning.
What you should do is spend every spare moment you have (when not in work) calling round every potential employer and site within a 30 mile radius of your home - or further if you wish - and then you'd have plenty of work on and no need to reply on scumbags.
The 15% extra you earn would cover the hassle of chasing the firm you worked direct for to get paid. You might not get all that 15% though as the firm has to set you up on their payroll, pay you (when they fancy it) and of course manage all the compliance around you being on site in the first instance.
Alternatively, become Mr 15% and go and work at the agency lording it behind a desk, drinking champagne at lunch, enjoying an airconditioned office doing chaff all day in day out.
Still funny that people still use an industry they don't like and can see no value in. Just don't use recruitment firms if you don't want to !
See - you keep saying this. And people keep telling you that it's impossible to work in certain industries without using them. Is there some part of this that isn't simple? Because it seems pretty straightforward to me.
Perhaps somewhere in the organisation(s) you want to work in there is someone who sees value in the service then ?
Or as WSS says - are you meaning a recruiter or a facilitator / payroll service ?
Must go - these champagne corks won't count themselves.
No - and that's just it. There isn't anyone who sees value in what they do. It's just impossible to recruit IT staff without using a recruitment consultant.
I'm surprised with you Addickted. Most jobs carry a huge degree of pressure and stress these days, for varying reasons.
We don't all have to serve on the front line or save someones life to have sleepless nights worrying you'll have a job in three months and be able to support you family. Everyones pressure and stress is unique, regardless of the 'bigger picture'
.........Doing this whilst knowing some ****** is sat behind a desk in a air conditioned office taking 15% of what you are out there earning.
What you should do is spend every spare moment you have (when not in work) calling round every potential employer and site within a 30 mile radius of your home - or further if you wish - and then you'd have plenty of work on and no need to reply on scumbags.
The 15% extra you earn would cover the hassle of chasing the firm you worked direct for to get paid. You might not get all that 15% though as the firm has to set you up on their payroll, pay you (when they fancy it) and of course manage all the compliance around you being on site in the first instance.
Alternatively, become Mr 15% and go and work at the agency lording it behind a desk, drinking champagne at lunch, enjoying an airconditioned office doing chaff all day in day out.
Still funny that people still use an industry they don't like and can see no value in. Just don't use recruitment firms if you don't want to !
See - you keep saying this. And people keep telling you that it's impossible to work in certain industries without using them. Is there some part of this that isn't simple? Because it seems pretty straightforward to me.
Perhaps somewhere in the organisation(s) you want to work in there is someone who sees value in the service then ?
Or as WSS says - are you meaning a recruiter or a facilitator / payroll service ?
Must go - these champagne corks won't count themselves.
No - and that's just it. There isn't anyone who sees value in what they do. It's just impossible to recruit IT staff without using a recruitment consultant.
So this is impossible to do without a recruiter but recruiters add no value.
How do you think recruitment consultants find IT staff to pass over to clients? Why can't companies go through the same process themselves?
- Get a job description - Write a decent job advert - Advertise the job on some niche sites - Complement it with professional social networking (LinkedIn etc.) - Follow up on all applications - Reject those not suitable - Speak/meet those who are - Draw up a shortlist - Arrange interviews - Reject candidates - Offer the role/negotiate salary
There is nothing stopping companies/individuals doing the simplified process above themselves and get the same if not better results.
If I worked in recruitment marketing inhouse I'd certainly push not using recruitment agencies by getting in a fluid recruitment strategy inhouse. If you get it right then there is no reason why you can't get better results that the 15%ers and that's coming from somebody who has worked agency side for nine years.
No - and that's just it. There isn't anyone who sees value in what they do. It's just impossible to recruit IT staff without using a recruitment consultant.
Can I ask... Is that from a hiring perspective or an applicant perspective?
Also, it seems there is confusion on how the 15% is charged. I don't know any agencies that take 15% away from applicants. I've always worked on the basis that the client pays a fee on top of the day rate / salary, so surely it would be in my interests to get you more money?
How do you think recruitment consultants find IT staff to pass over to clients? Why can't companies go through the same process themselves?
- Get a job description - Write a decent job advert - Advertise the job on some niche sites - Complement it with professional social networking (LinkedIn etc.) - Follow up on all applications - Reject those not suitable - Speak/meet those who are - Draw up a shortlist - Arrange interviews - Reject candidates - Offer the role/negotiate salary
There is nothing stopping companies/individuals doing the simplified process above themselves and get the same if not better results.
If I worked in recruitment marketing inhouse I'd certainly push not using recruitment agencies by getting in a fluid recruitment strategy inhouse. If you get it right then there is no reason why you can't get better results that the 15%ers and that's coming from somebody who has worked agency side for nine years.
And that has happened a lot lately - my biggest competitor is in-house, not agency.
Technology helps make it a bit easier for me but it also makes it a lot easier for the agency recruiter who has been recruited to an in-house talent team.
If it paid enough, I'd go into it. Not seen many in-house roles that stack up financially though.
My main work is as a Diplomat at the Foreign Office with a bit of North Sea Oil Rig work on the side.
I'm concerned about the time I'm able to put into the Local Scout Group and the School Governership though and my 'own build' brickwork has gone to pot. :-)
My main work is as a Diplomat at the Foreign Office with a bit of North Sea Oil Rig work on the side.
I'm concerned about the time I'm able to put into the Local Scout Group and the School Governership though and my 'own build' brickwork has gone to pot. :-)
You probably need to consider giving up your season ticket next year then:-)
anyone out of work or looking for a job has my deepest sympathy, whatever method of getting a job saves one person the pain and stress of un-employment then I don't think you can argue with it. Addickted comments are all tongue in cheek he isn't the kind of person to be nasty or vindictive.
Me I am in a industry which is cut throat and is getting harder and harder coupled with my age, prospects aint good.
No - and that's just it. There isn't anyone who sees value in what they do. It's just impossible to recruit IT staff without using a recruitment consultant.
Can I ask... Is that from a hiring perspective or an applicant perspective?
Also, it seems there is confusion on how the 15% is charged. I don't know any agencies that take 15% away from applicants. I've always worked on the basis that the client pays a fee on top of the day rate / salary, so surely it would be in my interests to get you more money?
It's from both. I've been lied to by every one I've ever met, either when looking for a new role or when looking to hire.
No - and that's just it. There isn't anyone who sees value in what they do. It's just impossible to recruit IT staff without using a recruitment consultant.
Can I ask... Is that from a hiring perspective or an applicant perspective?
Also, it seems there is confusion on how the 15% is charged. I don't know any agencies that take 15% away from applicants. I've always worked on the basis that the client pays a fee on top of the day rate / salary, so surely it would be in my interests to get you more money?
Different agencies do it different ways. I worked for one that stuck a £5 an hour on top of the rate, whereas others stick a % on top. Government departments appear to tender, so they pay a set rate for an engineer. This is then haggled over between the agency and engineer.
No - and that's just it. There isn't anyone who sees value in what they do. It's just impossible to recruit IT staff without using a recruitment consultant.
Can I ask... Is that from a hiring perspective or an applicant perspective?
Also, it seems there is confusion on how the 15% is charged. I don't know any agencies that take 15% away from applicants. I've always worked on the basis that the client pays a fee on top of the day rate / salary, so surely it would be in my interests to get you more money?
It's from both. I've been lied to by every one I've ever met, either when looking for a new role or when looking to hire.
At my work I advertise on Government Gateway and refuse to use agencies. Sadly whenever I advertise an admin role I get hundreds of applicants. Other times I am looking for a degree educated Mechanical Design Engineer and get a man who can use a spanner or who works in a car wash. Sometimes I'd like that wheat separated from the chaff.
I do have one contact I often refer to when looking for staff and he, more often than not, gets me what I want. He's not an agency but works in recruitment. Doesn't charge a fortune either - and that's the important thing. He relies on little and often and it works well - he knows what I am looking for but is the only person I would go to.
Having said that we are doing a job for a recruitment specialist based in London - financial headhunter. He lives on a stunning long private road and just bought one of his neighbours houses. He is finding out any minute now if he just got his planning consent to build a 7 bed with 7 en-suite house, with pool, 30 seater cinema, gym, 1/2 acre garden, staff quarters, wine cellar etc etc so there must be some money in it if you are decent. He was not the easiest guy to negotiate with though!!
I've used two specialist and niche one-man band recruitment agents over the past few years and they have found me good, relevant work and I'd definitely use them again. I wa offered a job in recruitment by an agency I was using last year but turned it down and stayed in my field - plus I'm not a salesman so could never do it.
There are some good, honest pros out there but there are also some who just need you to sign up to bump their numbers up and out you up for jobs that are irrelevant to you and the prospective employer which wastes ever bodies time.
I can only speak of recruiters in Banking but in my opinion they are mostly fecking useless. You have to use them because practically every job vacancy is placed with one or another of them. Not all jobs but the vast majority. In my experience all of them wanted to see you face to face, no problem. So you'd sclepp up town to see them for all of ten minutes in which time they'd run through your CV which you had already sent them, ask you a couple of inane questions and pretend they knew a modicum about Banking which they invariably did not as just two weeks previously they had graduated from some knobhead uni with a degree in Geology. They then sent you on your way with a 'we have a couple of positions about to be placed with us', meaning we have eff all on our books suitable to you but heyho I've seen you and met some or other quota. Of course, they would be in touch shortly.
A couple of days later you call them. And they pretend to know you but don't really because in between they have seen 20 other suckers. A week later you are browsing Cityjobs, a great site, where every recruiter advertises finance positions, and you see a position that is right up your street. You scroll down to see which agency has placed it and hey presto it's the one employing Mr Geologist. So you call him. You either get a 'oh, I was just about to call you', an 'oh, he was here for over a month and has moved on now' or a 'my colleague Mr Lawyer is dealing with that one so you will have to speak to him'. On doing so he is unaware of you, despite you being on their database, and after a few polite words he says he will put you forward for the position. Does he? You never know, he might or he might not. What is the point in registering if when a suitable position comes up they don't consider you for it? I know why firms use recruitment agencies because they need the wheat sorted from the chaff but really most are completely useless.
Luckily, the small bank I now work for decided to pay £200 for an ad themselves on Cityjobs, got over 200 applications, cut out an agency that would have demanded probably 30% of my first years salary as a fee, and managed to source the right person. If only all companies could do this.
So, sorry for all you recruiters on here, I know you are probably good at your jobs and decent blokes but unfortunately the majority in your industry are crap and letting the rest of you down.
I just pray I don't have to visit a recruitment agency any time soon, hopefully ever again.
Dazzler, i thought you wanted to join the old bill after your attempted citzens arrest a couple of years ago? Or am I thinking of someone else. Apologies if I am and good luck in your next career move.
Dazzler, i thought you wanted to join the old bill after your attempted citzens arrest a couple of years ago? Or am I thinking of someone else. Apologies if I am and good luck in your next career move.
Sadly there are no jobs in the surrey, Sussex or met police and hasn't been for almost 2 years now... So I am left finding a job/career elsewhere. I'm thinking save up for Mortgage and PT qualification and go from there.
Not phased by this thread at all. My family all work in Insurance, or estate agencies lol so used to seeing the hate.
Large - I guess these recruiters liaise with you on the phone and invite you in to really decide if you are on the level or an "odd one". Once they have met you I guess they have decided.
Dazzler - I take it all back. You should get into an honourable career like banking. How is that sub-prime market these days ?
Or how about drug smuggling or people trafficking ?
Just got to the office so need to stop now - have a day ahead of me shattering people's dreams and fleecing clients.
How do you think recruitment consultants find IT staff to pass over to clients? Why can't companies go through the same process themselves?
- Get a job description - Write a decent job advert - Advertise the job on some niche sites - Complement it with professional social networking (LinkedIn etc.) - Follow up on all applications - Reject those not suitable - Speak/meet those who are - Draw up a shortlist - Arrange interviews - Reject candidates - Offer the role/negotiate salary
There is nothing stopping companies/individuals doing the simplified process above themselves and get the same if not better results.
If I worked in recruitment marketing inhouse I'd certainly push not using recruitment agencies by getting in a fluid recruitment strategy inhouse. If you get it right then there is no reason why you can't get better results that the 15%ers and that's coming from somebody who has worked agency side for nine years.
In my experience recruiters do not do the majority of the items on that list. Logically most of those things can only ever be in house.
Wouldn't have working in the oil industry have been more lucrative than I.T. Leroy? Or did you not fancy being stuck in Aberdeen for months on end?
It would have been, yes. But as opposed to a petroleum geologist, I'm more of a palaeontologist, which, I quickly discovered, involves lots of sitting around in dimly-lit basements with a bunch of poorly-dressed blokes doing boring stuff all day. So, actually pretty much exactly the same as IT, except it pays worse.
How do you think recruitment consultants find IT staff to pass over to clients? Why can't companies go through the same process themselves?
- Get a job description - Write a decent job advert - Advertise the job on some niche sites - Complement it with professional social networking (LinkedIn etc.) - Follow up on all applications - Reject those not suitable - Speak/meet those who are - Draw up a shortlist - Arrange interviews - Reject candidates - Offer the role/negotiate salary
There is nothing stopping companies/individuals doing the simplified process above themselves and get the same if not better results.
If I worked in recruitment marketing inhouse I'd certainly push not using recruitment agencies by getting in a fluid recruitment strategy inhouse. If you get it right then there is no reason why you can't get better results that the 15%ers and that's coming from somebody who has worked agency side for nine years.
In my experience recruiters do not do the majority of the items on that list. Logically most of those things can only ever be in house.
I must just have worked in decent companies for the past nine years though because recruiters have always done all of those things (in tandem with the client in some cases of course).
I can only speak of recruiters in Banking but in my opinion they are mostly fecking useless. You have to use them because practically every job vacancy is placed with one or another of them. Not all jobs but the vast majority. In my experience all of them wanted to see you face to face, no problem. So you'd sclepp up town to see them for all of ten minutes in which time they'd run through your CV which you had already sent them, ask you a couple of inane questions and pretend they knew a modicum about Banking which they invariably did not as just two weeks previously they had graduated from some knobhead uni with a degree in Geology. They then sent you on your way with a 'we have a couple of positions about to be placed with us', meaning we have eff all on our books suitable to you but heyho I've seen you and met some or other quota. Of course, they would be in touch shortly.
A couple of days later you call them. And they pretend to know you but don't really because in between they have seen 20 other suckers. A week later you are browsing Cityjobs, a great site, where every recruiter advertises finance positions, and you see a position that is right up your street. You scroll down to see which agency has placed it and hey presto it's the one employing Mr Geologist. So you call him. You either get a 'oh, I was just about to call you', an 'oh, he was here for over a month and has moved on now' or a 'my colleague Mr Lawyer is dealing with that one so you will have to speak to him'. On doing so he is unaware of you, despite you being on their database, and after a few polite words he says he will put you forward for the position. Does he? You never know, he might or he might not. What is the point in registering if when a suitable position comes up they don't consider you for it? I know why firms use recruitment agencies because they need the wheat sorted from the chaff but really most are completely useless.
Luckily, the small bank I now work for decided to pay £200 for an ad themselves on Cityjobs, got over 200 applications, cut out an agency that would have demanded probably 30% of my first years salary as a fee, and managed to source the right person. If only all companies could do this.
So, sorry for all you recruiters on here, I know you are probably good at your jobs and decent blokes but unfortunately the majority in your industry are crap and letting the rest of you down.
I just pray I don't have to visit a recruitment agency any time soon, hopefully ever again.
I absolutely could not have put this better myself. unfortunately I'm still looking for work and still having to deal with these people. In the last 24 hours I have contacted 20+ agencies. These are people I have already had to travel into London to see (about £20 a train ticket everytime). 3 have replied to my emails. The rest don't even have the decency to reply to my emails. I've also applied for about 15 jobs through various websites including cityjobs as mentioned already. I've had one response. These include jobs I am absolutely plum perfect for. I have 15 years experience in banking, yet I cannot even get put forward for roles encompassing my full experience.
I'd love to be able to defend agencies, and recruiters, but the reality is that in the last 11 months of job hunting I have found 3 that were professional. These guys replied to my emails, offered me advice, pointed me in other directions if they couldnt help me. The rest have either ignored me (and we're talking email after email, not returning calls, etc.
Funnily enough Large Addick above has actually been more helpful to me that 95% of the people I have dealt with.
It would have been, yes. But as opposed to a petroleum geologist, I'm more of a palaeontologist, which, I quickly discovered, involves lots of sitting around in dimly-lit basements with a bunch of poorly-dressed blokes doing boring stuff all day. So, actually pretty much exactly the same as IT, except it pays worse.
*grin* although unlike petroleum geology it's more useful when your kids/nieces/nephews go through the dinosaur obsession stage.
Comments
I see.
That other 83% needs to be covered through networking and knowing the right people.
- Get a job description
- Write a decent job advert
- Advertise the job on some niche sites
- Complement it with professional social networking (LinkedIn etc.)
- Follow up on all applications
- Reject those not suitable
- Speak/meet those who are
- Draw up a shortlist
- Arrange interviews
- Reject candidates
- Offer the role/negotiate salary
There is nothing stopping companies/individuals doing the simplified process above themselves and get the same if not better results.
If I worked in recruitment marketing inhouse I'd certainly push not using recruitment agencies by getting in a fluid recruitment strategy inhouse. If you get it right then there is no reason why you can't get better results that the 15%ers and that's coming from somebody who has worked agency side for nine years.
Also, it seems there is confusion on how the 15% is charged. I don't know any agencies that take 15% away from applicants. I've always worked on the basis that the client pays a fee on top of the day rate / salary, so surely it would be in my interests to get you more money?
Technology helps make it a bit easier for me but it also makes it a lot easier for the agency recruiter who has been recruited to an in-house talent team.
If it paid enough, I'd go into it. Not seen many in-house roles that stack up financially though.
My main work is as a Diplomat at the Foreign Office with a bit of North Sea Oil Rig work on the side.
I'm concerned about the time I'm able to put into the Local Scout Group and the School Governership though and my 'own build' brickwork has gone to pot. :-)
Addickted comments are all tongue in cheek he isn't the kind of person to be nasty or vindictive.
Me I am in a industry which is cut throat and is getting harder and harder coupled with my age, prospects aint good.
Also, it seems there is confusion on how the 15% is charged. I don't know any agencies that take 15% away from applicants. I've always worked on the basis that the client pays a fee on top of the day rate / salary, so surely it would be in my interests to get you more money?
It's from both. I've been lied to by every one I've ever met, either when looking for a new role or when looking to hire.
Also, it seems there is confusion on how the 15% is charged. I don't know any agencies that take 15% away from applicants. I've always worked on the basis that the client pays a fee on top of the day rate / salary, so surely it would be in my interests to get you more money?
Different agencies do it different ways. I worked for one that stuck a £5 an hour on top of the rate, whereas others stick a % on top. Government departments appear to tender, so they pay a set rate for an engineer. This is then haggled over between the agency and engineer.
That's been my experience.
Every recruiter you have met has lied to you ?
You must bring the best out of people.
I do have one contact I often refer to when looking for staff and he, more often than not, gets me what I want. He's not an agency but works in recruitment. Doesn't charge a fortune either - and that's the important thing. He relies on little and often and it works well - he knows what I am looking for but is the only person I would go to.
Having said that we are doing a job for a recruitment specialist based in London - financial headhunter. He lives on a stunning long private road and just bought one of his neighbours houses. He is finding out any minute now if he just got his planning consent to build a 7 bed with 7 en-suite house, with pool, 30 seater cinema, gym, 1/2 acre garden, staff quarters, wine cellar etc etc so there must be some money in it if you are decent. He was not the easiest guy to negotiate with though!!
There are some good, honest pros out there but there are also some who just need you to sign up to bump their numbers up and out you up for jobs that are irrelevant to you and the prospective employer which wastes ever bodies time.
A couple of days later you call them. And they pretend to know you but don't really because in between they have seen 20 other suckers. A week later you are browsing Cityjobs, a great site, where every recruiter advertises finance positions, and you see a position that is right up your street. You scroll down to see which agency has placed it and hey presto it's the one employing Mr Geologist. So you call him. You either get a 'oh, I was just about to call you', an 'oh, he was here for over a month and has moved on now' or a 'my colleague Mr Lawyer is dealing with that one so you will have to speak to him'. On doing so he is unaware of you, despite you being on their database, and after a few polite words he says he will put you forward for the position. Does he? You never know, he might or he might not. What is the point in registering if when a suitable position comes up they don't consider you for it? I know why firms use recruitment agencies because they need the wheat sorted from the chaff but really most are completely useless.
Luckily, the small bank I now work for decided to pay £200 for an ad themselves on Cityjobs, got over 200 applications, cut out an agency that would have demanded probably 30% of my first years salary as a fee, and managed to source the right person. If only all companies could do this.
So, sorry for all you recruiters on here, I know you are probably good at your jobs and decent blokes but unfortunately the majority in your industry are crap and letting the rest of you down.
I just pray I don't have to visit a recruitment agency any time soon, hopefully ever again.
Not phased by this thread at all. My family all work in Insurance, or estate agencies lol so used to seeing the hate.
Dazzler - I take it all back. You should get into an honourable career like banking. How is that sub-prime market these days ?
Or how about drug smuggling or people trafficking ?
Just got to the office so need to stop now - have a day ahead of me shattering people's dreams and fleecing clients.
Laying paving slabs in all weather is hard relentless work, that will make you old before your time. (not that I do it for a living)
I'd love to be able to defend agencies, and recruiters, but the reality is that in the last 11 months of job hunting I have found 3 that were professional. These guys replied to my emails, offered me advice, pointed me in other directions if they couldnt help me. The rest have either ignored me (and we're talking email after email, not returning calls, etc.
Funnily enough Large Addick above has actually been more helpful to me that 95% of the people I have dealt with.