Millwall are outsiders. They were formed by the employees of a Scottish company which set up in business in The Isle of Dogs, and many of the personnel were expatriate Scots.
For want of room to expand, in 1910 the club left the cramped island to hop over the water to The Den. If the club's heartland was Bermondsey and Surrey Docks, they found themselves further isolated from neighbouring communities. As London's population exploded Bermondsey itself never absorbed immigrants (at least from outside the UK) to anything like the same extent as other parts of London drew in newcomers from the Empire and Eastern Europe. It was an inward-looking community that looked after its own.
Local industry was dominated by the docks and associated trades. There were aspects to dock work which fitted perfectly with the prevailing local mentality. The docks operated with casual labour. The irregular nature of dock work brought a powerful sense of loyalty within the dockers' gangs. Secondly, it was hard physical labour often in appalling condition and only the tough could thrive. Lastly, the endemic thieving and criminality brought a shared common cause and antipathy towards authority (police, Customs) and again a mandatory loyalty to their own.
So, it can be understood that these hard characters with almost a fortress mentality (when have dockers never been routinely disparaged ?), a hatred of authority and with a resentment of other more privileged areas developed a tradition of hostility to their sporting opponents, and their physical strength and disregard for the law meant they showed little self-restraint when it came to trouble.
But here's the thing - the docks closed over 40 years ago and much of the local population dispersed far and wide. The social conditions that produced the behaviour that brought this deservedly shameful reputation - never a justification but at least understandable - have long since ceased to exist.
The present generation has no such background of deprivation and hardship but they have embraced and distorted the unsavoury elements of the club's past and they glory in it. If they can't be liked, then they must be respected, and if they can't be respected then they must be feared. They wear the club's reputation like a shabby old ill-fitting suit. They aim to shock, to be noticed. They care little or nothing for the club and its decent fans. They are self-indulgent and wholly self-obsessed, and the club will never be rid of them - the whole thing is self-perpetuating.
I apologise if these comments are not better argued but I wanted just to try and show that however low Millwall have been before, to bring up Philpott was a step beyond even their own despicable boundaries, and it betrays a mentality that is past shame. Their forebears must be truly appalled at what their legacy has now produced.
Very thoughtful post and without doubt an element of truth but I can't help thinking that if we are going to hark backwards in time to when the local community had it so hard then I truly think that there are dozens and dozens of clubs particularly from the north that had it equally as tough if not tougher. What makes Millwall so different that the mentality you speak of has been perpetuated ?
before some of you start getting "holier than thou" I remember hearing the "family song" being sung on Saturday by certain sections of or crowd to the Bristol fans.
Now, maybe having sex with your mother/sister etc usn't as bad as burning down your house with your kids in it but comes pretty close in my book !
I was profoundly upset as the Philpott saga unfolded - that such a grievous event could have been perpetrated in a civilised society, it seemed unthinkable. To learn what that feckless rabble had come out with on Saturday was too much.
Why are adjacent clubs so different ? Why are the Toffees a pleasure to meet, when Liverpool are much less so. Villa are by and large a decent lot - how can they inhabit the same city as the rabid scum from St Andrews? Would 25-5-98 have been such a sporting day if we'd have beaten Newcastle? Generalisations, I know, I know ....
Sport is competition, and ours goes back to 1888. That's a long time for traditions to be built up. We know that football is prone to extremes, the days when enthusiastic becomes boisterous, boisterous become unruly, unruly turns aggressive and finally violence erupts. But why are Millwall and WHU (sorry, Thames Ironworks) still fighting their Victorian battles - this is actually more like something from medieval times.
And what's almost worst of all is that we're talking about Millwall YET AGAIN !!!! The thousands of lines this forum has expended in the past couple of months which have been devoted to MFC - it's just criminal.
They say that South Verminsey is about to be severely gentrified. Well, they can rename their shabby dump Denningtons, hire a horticultural genius to grow ivy up its charmless exterior, and for all I care become the world's first all-executive box stadium, but their swirling underclass of supporters will never relinquish a desperate grasp on the rags of their dismal tradition.
I'm just sick of them and all they stand for. Why can't some public-spirited benefactor just buy them up and just shut the bastard franchise down, leaving the other 90 of us (and Palace) to get on with things in peace. Bill Gates - what about it, my old mate ?
But why are Millwall and WHU (sorry, Thames Ironworks) still fighting their Victorian battles - this is actually more like something from medieval times.
if you didn't have the spanners to get your juices going we might never have seen this side to you though GHF?
I wanted to just 'quote' you and say 'secondidid' but felt after your efforts today that would be shameful and lazy on my part hence this explanation to 'pad out' my appreciation of your two fine posts...
Millwall are just the local club that attracts the "Ralph Lauren Wearing I Think I Can Have A Tear Up" Brigade, just like Chelsea in West London, West Ham in East London, Leeds up tut North and Cardiff in Wales etc etc
This whole thread and the disagreements about what is appropriate/acceptable show exactly why censorship never works. Stick to your own moral standards and let others stick to theirs, Mary Whitehouse would be proud of you lot!!
Thanks for the kind comments. We all feel deeply sbout this subject because they degrade our sport, they degrade our district and most hurtful of all they keep getting the better of us !!
Regardless of our own fringe element there is an unbridgeable gap between the two clubs' respective ways. OK, so some of it is fanciful stereotype - say the word "gauge" to a Charlton fan and he thinks Hornby Dublo, a Spanner thinks shotgun - but the difference is real enough. Unfortunately we're left only with ridicule if the team don't do our talking for us in the derby games.
NLA - I'm no toff , er, my good man. Although .... I went to Millwall v Middlesbrough some time around '68 (can't remember why - it remains the only "neutral" game I will ever see at Millwall) and my mate came along too. We went straight from the office, still suited up, so when we failed to go mental at Millwall's first goal the snotty little git standing next to me goes "oooooh, got the poshies in here tonight". Shortly after we made our excuses and left ....
Anyway, enough Millwall already. Maybe their cardboard cut-out apologists will surface, but frankly who gives a monkey's ? Their comrades are nothing but a sorry discharge from South London's urban scar tissue, and unworthy of any more keystrokes, at least until the next outrage.
Alot of Millwall fans seemed to quite enjoy it when a section of our fans misbehaved at The New Den. honestly they revelled in it. Doesn't mean we should revel in it when a section of their fans disgrace themselves. Especially because I get fed up with having to listen to the incest song every home game.
GHF The reason you went to Millwall v Middlesborough is because our game v QPR that day was called off with about 90 minutes to go. Loads of fans of QPR and Charlton who were already on the train system went to the Old Den to get a bit of footy. Millwall won 1-0 and I remember being impressed by Eamon Dunphy.
You could be right, Seth, altho I had the idea Millwall eventually won 2-0. This was a night game, right ?
Btw, none of the foregoing has got anything to do with censorship, except perhaps the absence of self-censorship. I'm no more Mary Whitehouse than I am Brian Whitehouse. However, I don't believe that anything goes. If the tragic death of six young souls is a worthy subject for "entertainment" then we really are reaching the bottom of the abyss.
Jackett won't walk. He has a good relationship with his chairman and regardless of what is written on the Millwall forums the support of the vast majority of Millwall supporters. I think he's already shown that the reputation and behaviour of the scum element of fans is something he is quite happy to distance himself from but largely ignore. Their poor season will provide proof enough for Berylson to spend some money from his fortune to ensure we are stuck with them.
Comments
For want of room to expand, in 1910 the club left the cramped island to hop over the water to The Den. If the club's heartland was Bermondsey and Surrey Docks, they found themselves further isolated from neighbouring communities. As London's population exploded Bermondsey itself never absorbed immigrants (at least from outside the UK) to anything like the same extent as other parts of London drew in newcomers from the Empire and Eastern Europe. It was an inward-looking community that looked after its own.
Local industry was dominated by the docks and associated trades. There were aspects to dock work which fitted perfectly with the prevailing local mentality. The docks operated with casual labour. The irregular nature of dock work brought a powerful sense of loyalty within the dockers' gangs. Secondly, it was hard physical labour often in appalling condition and only the tough could thrive. Lastly, the endemic thieving and criminality brought a shared common cause and antipathy towards authority (police, Customs) and again a mandatory loyalty to their own.
So, it can be understood that these hard characters with almost a fortress mentality (when have dockers never been routinely disparaged ?), a hatred of authority and with a resentment of other more privileged areas developed a tradition of hostility to their sporting opponents, and their physical strength and disregard for the law meant they showed little self-restraint when it came to trouble.
But here's the thing - the docks closed over 40 years ago and much of the local population dispersed far and wide. The social conditions that produced the behaviour that brought this deservedly shameful reputation - never a justification but at least understandable - have long since ceased to exist.
The present generation has no such background of deprivation and hardship but they have embraced and distorted the unsavoury elements of the club's past and they glory in it. If they can't be liked, then they must be respected, and if they can't be respected then they must be feared. They wear the club's reputation like a shabby old ill-fitting suit. They aim to shock, to be noticed. They care little or nothing for the club and its decent fans. They are self-indulgent and wholly self-obsessed, and the club will never be rid of them - the whole thing is self-perpetuating.
I apologise if these comments are not better argued but I wanted just to try and show that however low Millwall have been before, to bring up Philpott was a step beyond even their own despicable boundaries, and it betrays a mentality that is past shame. Their forebears must be truly appalled at what their legacy has now produced.
Very thoughtful post and without doubt an element of truth but I can't help thinking that if we are going to hark backwards in time to when the local community had it so hard then I truly think that there are dozens and dozens of clubs particularly from the north that had it equally as tough if not tougher. What makes Millwall so different that the mentality you speak of has been perpetuated ?
Why are adjacent clubs so different ? Why are the Toffees a pleasure to meet, when Liverpool are
much less so. Villa are by and large a decent lot - how can they inhabit the same city as the rabid scum from St Andrews? Would 25-5-98 have been such a sporting day if we'd have beaten Newcastle? Generalisations, I know, I know ....
Sport is competition, and ours goes back to 1888. That's a long time for traditions to be built up. We know that football is prone to extremes, the days when enthusiastic becomes boisterous, boisterous become unruly, unruly turns aggressive and finally violence erupts. But why are Millwall and WHU (sorry, Thames Ironworks) still fighting their Victorian battles - this is actually more like something from medieval times.
And what's almost worst of all is that we're talking about Millwall YET AGAIN !!!! The thousands of lines this forum has expended in the past couple of months which have been devoted to MFC - it's just criminal.
They say that South Verminsey is about to be severely gentrified. Well, they can rename their shabby dump Denningtons, hire a horticultural genius to grow ivy up its charmless exterior, and for all I care become the world's first all-executive box stadium, but their swirling underclass of supporters will never relinquish a desperate grasp on the rags of their dismal tradition.
I'm just sick of them and all they stand for. Why can't some public-spirited benefactor just buy them up and just shut the bastard franchise down, leaving the other 90 of us (and Palace) to get on with things in peace. Bill Gates - what about it, my old mate ?
Read Southampton/Portsmouth, Manchester/Liverpool ?
;-)
Is it out in the midday sun that has done it
By jove old bean you are on the money rught now
I wanted to just 'quote' you and say 'secondidid' but felt after your efforts today that would be shameful and lazy on my part hence this explanation to 'pad out' my appreciation of your two fine posts...
Regardless of our own fringe element there is an unbridgeable gap between the two clubs' respective ways. OK, so some of it is fanciful stereotype - say the word "gauge" to a Charlton fan and he thinks Hornby Dublo, a Spanner thinks shotgun - but the difference is real enough. Unfortunately we're left only with ridicule if the team don't do our talking for us in the derby games.
NLA - I'm no toff , er, my good man. Although .... I went to Millwall v Middlesbrough some time around '68 (can't remember why - it remains the only "neutral" game I will ever see at Millwall) and my mate came along too. We went straight from the office, still suited up, so when we failed to go mental at Millwall's first goal the snotty little git standing next to me goes "oooooh, got the poshies in here tonight". Shortly after we made our excuses and left ....
Anyway, enough Millwall already. Maybe their cardboard cut-out apologists will surface, but frankly who gives a monkey's ? Their comrades are nothing but a sorry discharge from South London's urban scar tissue, and unworthy of any more keystrokes, at least until the next outrage.
GHF ...you ARE the man !!
See you all had a good time Saturday night
Or the other one - can't remember the name.
Best thing to come out of Millwall ? No, I can't think of anything either. But they do have a habit of beating us.
Danny Shittu, 'cos that's what I poo.
The reason you went to Millwall v Middlesborough is because our game v QPR that day was called off with about 90 minutes to go. Loads of fans of QPR and Charlton who were already on the train system went to the Old Den to get a bit of footy. Millwall won 1-0 and I remember being impressed by Eamon Dunphy.
Btw, none of the foregoing has got anything to do with censorship, except perhaps the absence of self-censorship. I'm no more Mary Whitehouse than I am Brian Whitehouse. However, I don't believe that anything goes. If the tragic death of six young souls is a worthy subject for "entertainment" then we really are reaching the bottom of the abyss.
Groundhog Day ....