The old "we need to cahnge our Coaching structure to encourage passing" has been around for years........many, many years. Everyone believes this to be true and it has always been headlines. However, it won't happen for a long time, if it ever does. The reason we play the way we do is cultural and cultural changes take generations. We are stills a meat and potatoes footballing nation. Just as the "continentals" can't play our way, we can't play their way.
Agree with this.
We can't expect to totally change the way we teach our kids or adults because our homegrown is nurtured to play English football. Fast/physical/end to end.
At International level the games are a lot tighter and hell of a lot slower. Breaking down teams patiently is something we aren't used to.
We can't fully expect our club players to train all week in preparation for the PL then have 3 days with England and completely change the style.
It's a difficult one...
But most of our prem club players are foreign and go back to their national teams and play passing football in 3 days.
Maybe it's not the clubs fault but inadequate international coaching staff.
Yes but as they have been taught from a young age in their own nation when they go back its like second nature, especially when you are playing alongside other 'natural' footballers.
The coaching staff do need looking at aswell. I'm not a fan of giving jobs to ex pros just because they've played abit, something the FA seem to love.
The old "we need to cahnge our Coaching structure to encourage passing" has been around for years........many, many years. Everyone believes this to be true and it has always been headlines. However, it won't happen for a long time, if it ever does. The reason we play the way we do is cultural and cultural changes take generations. We are stills a meat and potatoes footballing nation. Just as the "continentals" can't play our way, we can't play their way.
Agree with this.
We can't expect to totally change the way we teach our kids or adults because our homegrown is nurtured to play English football. Fast/physical/end to end.
At International level the games are a lot tighter and hell of a lot slower. Breaking down teams patiently is something we aren't used to.
We can't fully expect our club players to train all week in preparation for the PL then have 3 days with England and completely change the style.
It's a difficult one...
But most of our prem club players are foreign and go back to their national teams and play passing football in 3 days.
Maybe it's not the clubs fault but inadequate international coaching staff.
Yes but as they have been taught from a young age in their own nation when they go back its like second nature, especially when you are playing alongside other 'natural' footballers.
The coaching staff do need looking at aswell. I'm not a fan of giving jobs to ex pros just because they've played abit, something the FA seem to love.
That's not just the FA. In Britain you can count on one hand the number of top club coaches who did not play as pros though. Looking at Spain, there were six coaches in La Liga last season with either no information readily available about their playing careers, or no real pro playing experience. But other than Mourinho, only one of them did well - Arrasate at Sociedad - two suffered relegation at La Coruna and Mallorca.
The rest had long and successful playing careers, many at the top.
Not saying there is anything to be read into that, just putting a few facts out there, rather than assuming stuff.
What's puzzling about all of this is that there several books which spell out how kids at Clubs like Ajax and Barcelona are developed. It doesn't seem like rocket science and Johan Cruyff, the architect, even runs a consultancy! What's stopping English Clubs developing their young players more intelligently? Why not simply copy Barcelona's passing drills, for example? I think you can even visit La Masia.
Let's hope that Paul Hart gets it. The future is bright if he does.
Haven't read all posts, but isn't it too late by the time they get to Paul Hart. My understanding of the short sided non-competitive stuff is that it should be done from ages 7-11. Trevor Brooking once said that once kids get to 11 it's too late to instill the Barcelona type thinking in them.
Most other countries play Fusbal which is like 5 a side but the ball does go out of play and is played with a low-bounce ball, meaning kids have more time to develop control, the short sided game also means they touch the ball more often and are not designated any specific position meaning what you do without the ball is just as important. My 8 year old plays and unfortunately after a few drills with 18 kids in a line, the coach proceeds to mark out a massive pitch and and have 9v9. Most kids don't touch it and the good ones just get the ball and dribble it until they score (not helping their game either). I've tried to get him to split the groups up and I'm hoping next season he'll include some of us to help do that.
As I've said before, you go through Italian suburbs and you see loads of 5-a-side pitches, not full size pitches as here. They also have lessons where they sit kids down and teach them tactics to improve their understanding of the game.
No it's c. Because where as we can develop a the odd Rooney or Gerard through luck -and the fact that so many kids play the game - other top countries have that type of player on a production line. We want our 8 year olds to win tournaments where as Spain want them to love the ball and not go near competetive tournaments until they are in their teens. We have coaches stuck in the 80s where they want kids playing 11 a-side on big pitches as early as possible and resent the FA 's changes - which move up pitch size too early to appease them. We look at the kid who is bigger and stronger than the rest who can dribble past a team on his own, they look for the kid who reads the game and plays with his head up..............
This exactly. The English game is too preoccupied with trying to produce players with "good engines" rather than players that are first and foremost comfortable on the ball. I doubt any of our top 11 players would get anywhere near an international cap if they were Spanish.
What's puzzling about all of this is that there several books which spell out how kids at Clubs like Ajax and Barcelona are developed. It doesn't seem like rocket science and Johan Cruyff, the architect, even runs a consultancy! What's stopping English Clubs developing their young players more intelligently? Why not simply copy Barcelona's passing drills, for example? I think you can even visit La Masia.
Let's hope that Paul Hart gets it. The future is bright if he does.
Haven't read all posts, but isn't it too late by the time they get to Paul Hart. My understanding of the short sided non-competitive stuff is that it should be done from ages 7-11. Trevor Brooking once said that once kids get to 11 it's too late to instill the Barcelona type thinking in them.
Most other countries play Fusbal which is like 5 a side but the ball does go out of play and is played with a low-bounce ball, meaning kids have more time to develop control, the short sided game also means they touch the ball more often and are not designated any specific position meaning what you do without the ball is just as important. My 8 year old plays and unfortunately after a few drills with 18 kids in a line, the coach proceeds to mark out a massive pitch and and have 9v9. Most kids don't touch it and the good ones just get the ball and dribble it until they score (not helping their game either). I've tried to get him to split the groups up and I'm hoping next season he'll include some of us to help do that.
Interesting comment and perhaps you are right to an important extent.
I do think it's a bit of a cop out though for the Clubs to say, "Sorry, not us Guv, the problem is with the schools and junior football etc". I find it hard to believe that individual Clubs, like Charlton, wouldn't be able to secure competitive advantage by taking a more modern and enlightened approach to their Academies.
In England we seem to suffer greatly from the "Show me your medals, you don't know what happens in a dressing room" closed shop culture which resists modern thinking. Clubs that develop a more analytical, thoughtful and open style of management will be the ones that will outperform their revenues and the new financial constraints that go with them.
First teams in all cempetitions all overvthe World are results driven. Teams below that aren't. Once players get into the first team it's only winning that counts.
I thought about Hoddle when I watched the extended highlights of our play-off final replay against Leeds in 1987, posted here recently by Aliwibble. Was astonished by the high standard of play: attackers able to dribble past defenders, midfielders piling forward in support, accuracy of shooting - all good ball skills that were epitomised by Hoddle. Granted, we were (just about) in the top division then, but when you look at the mediocre standard in the Championship now, you notice the drop in quality. Perhaps Harriott will bring us some dazzling individual skills....
It all seems to be about athleticism now says rather than technical ability , no wonder were off the pace.
Agreed. Presumably due to coaching youngsters with emphasis on strength rather than skill, although I believe that is changing. (See England U-21 thread for more on this.)
The anger and outrage that comes from fans and the media after each tournament is probably the most frustrating thing to listen to in the game.
Every time the "Spain do this, Germany do this" phrases get carted out and "Our players are overpaid" (oh and they earn a pittance in Spain, France, Italy, Germany etc do they?)
As it has been said before, if our players could take penalties then I do believe we would have probably won a major trophy or two in the last 20 years. We would have most certainly won Euro 96 and we would have been in with a shout during World Cup 2006 and Euro 2004.
I really don't understand why fans get so angry about us not winning tournaments. We haven't won anything in 50 years, so why should we complain that we're not the best? If we were to get to the semi-finals of any major tournament then it would be a major success. If we get to the 1/4 finals, which we usually do, then we're on par with what our level is (around the 7th/8th best in the world).
The anger and outrage that comes from fans and the media after each tournament is probably the most frustrating thing to listen to in the game.
Every time the "Spain do this, Germany do this" phrases get carted out and "Our players are overpaid" (oh and they earn a pittance in Spain, France, Italy, Germany etc do they?)
As it has been said before, if our players could take penalties then I do believe we would have probably won a major trophy or two in the last 20 years. We would have most certainly won Euro 96 and we would have been in with a shout during World Cup 2006 and Euro 2004.
I really don't understand why fans get so angry about us not winning tournaments. We haven't won anything in 50 years, so why should we complain that we're not the best? If we were to get to the semi-finals of any major tournament then it would be a major success. If we get to the 1/4 finals, which we usually do, then we're on par with what our level is (around the 7th/8th best in the world).
Personally, I never feel "anger or outrage" when we don't win tournaments; mostly, I'm amused by the high expectations placed on England, then all the soul-searching and breast-beating when we fizzle out. But the fundamental point remains: until the effects of reforming the coaching of youngsters filter through, we're highly unlikely to win anything - penalties or no penalties.
The anger and outrage that comes from fans and the media after each tournament is probably the most frustrating thing to listen to in the game.
Every time the "Spain do this, Germany do this" phrases get carted out and "Our players are overpaid" (oh and they earn a pittance in Spain, France, Italy, Germany etc do they?)
As it has been said before, if our players could take penalties then I do believe we would have probably won a major trophy or two in the last 20 years. We would have most certainly won Euro 96 and we would have been in with a shout during World Cup 2006 and Euro 2004.
I really don't understand why fans get so angry about us not winning tournaments. We haven't won anything in 50 years, so why should we complain that we're not the best? If we were to get to the semi-finals of any major tournament then it would be a major success. If we get to the 1/4 finals, which we usually do, then we're on par with what our level is (around the 7th/8th best in the world).
Personally, I never feel "anger or outrage" when we don't win tournaments; mostly, I'm amused by the high expectations placed on England, then all the soul-searching and breast-beating when we fizzle out. But the fundamental point remains: until the effects of reforming the coaching of youngsters filter through, we're highly unlikely to win anything - penalties or no penalties.
The fact that we can sometimes get close with our lack of technique suggests that with the right approach, we could have expectations on winning things - like Spain in 10-15 years time. Maybe we are just happy doing it our way - it is a very British trait.
How do you get coaches with an 1980s mentality away from coaching kids? Well the FA don't take the badges back and a lot of them give up their time and make sacrifices with the honest view they are doing the right thing. An argument is that we need more coaches too. It needs a bit of a revolution, but with any revolution, the desire to change has to be there - but overall, we don't possess that.
One thing is for sure- despite being limited, our game is entertaining. Maybe we should limit the number of foreign players and just play it as we want to, and at least our kids will have a chance that way! I do get bored watching Barcelona too!!
Agree about our game being generally entertaining. Surely these days the FA are putting more emphasis on teaching youngsters the technical skills. But as you say, the influx of foreign players blocks the development of English talent. What can be done about that, without falling foul of restraint of trade laws, etc?
We are to blame as parents too - and I include myself in that. I get a lot of pleasure watching my son win trophies (Just finsihed thi sseason playing U-12s football)- I know I shouldn't but rationalise that it doesn't matter so much as he is a keeper. But it isn't about me - really it should be about him! I see a lot of teams play big (even fat) keepers - to gain an advantage - when it surely has to be about teaching a kid who has th etechnique, to become better!
we need to completely change the game at grassroots level before we have a successful team that is capable of winning trophys like spain or germany, firstly by forcing children to play 5 a side and 7 a side only until they are 13
What players apart from Wilshere do we have coming through who would even make Spain Germany or Italy's u21 team?? None.
Did I actually just read someone saying we would have won cups if we could take penalties?? That is our typical england national team mentality. Rely on other teams to cock up.
We should sort this mess out once and for all. Forget reputations. Forget past achievements. Who is in form now?
All the F.A need to do is to visit Charlton life and use its expert advisers on football development and their broad, multi national knowledge. Simple.
Did I actually just read someone saying we would have won cups if we could take penalties?? That is our typical england national team mentality. Rely on other teams to cock up.
So when we lose on penalties, I assume you rant about the poor mental attitude of our opponents "Rely[ing] on other teams to cock up" then?
What players apart from Wilshere do we have coming through who would even make Spain Germany or Italy's u21 team?? None.
Did I actually just read someone saying we would have won cups if we could take penalties?? That is our typical england national team mentality. Rely on other teams to cock up.
We should sort this mess out once and for all. Forget reputations. Forget past achievements. Who is in form now?
It's a fair point about penalty taking - other teams practice taking them in the knowledge that they might have to get past a penalty shoot-out at some stage in the tournament. I seem to recall a quote from Hoddle when he was manager that the players would rather go and play golf than stay behind to practice taking penalties but if that's what it takes to win games then why isn't this part of their training?
What players apart from Wilshere do we have coming through who would even make Spain Germany or Italy's u21 team?? None.
Did I actually just read someone saying we would have won cups if we could take penalties?? That is our typical england national team mentality. Rely on other teams to cock up.
We should sort this mess out once and for all. Forget reputations. Forget past achievements. Who is in form now?
It's a fair point about penalty taking - other teams practice taking them in the knowledge that they might have to get past a penalty shoot-out at some stage in the tournament. I seem to recall a quote from Hoddle when he was manager that the players would rather go and play golf than stay behind to practice taking penalties but if that's what it takes to win games then why isn't this part of their training?
Is it maybe also then the attitude once England get to the tournaments ? Is it professional enough or is it treated as a bit of a laugh ? I only say this as if I was away on business and pissed off to play golf when I should be working I'd be in big trouble.
I invented a penalty training system on the train last year following our defeat to Italy, which I think would be simple and have a postive effect on our success rate. Do I think any England coach has thought that deeply about penalties- No -I'd be amazed if they did. We are not good at questioning how we do things and looking for a betetr way! If Hoddle said that, I am disapointed - it's up to the manager to make it part of training, not as something to opt in or out of.
The anger and outrage that comes from fans and the media after each tournament is probably the most frustrating thing to listen to in the game.
Every time the "Spain do this, Germany do this" phrases get carted out and "Our players are overpaid" (oh and they earn a pittance in Spain, France, Italy, Germany etc do they?)
As it has been said before, if our players could take penalties then I do believe we would have probably won a major trophy or two in the last 20 years. We would have most certainly won Euro 96 and we would have been in with a shout during World Cup 2006 and Euro 2004.
I really don't understand why fans get so angry about us not winning tournaments. We haven't won anything in 50 years, so why should we complain that we're not the best? If we were to get to the semi-finals of any major tournament then it would be a major success. If we get to the 1/4 finals, which we usually do, then we're on par with what our level is (around the 7th/8th best in the world).
It is frustrating though Tom because people like me pay THOUSANDS of pounds to follow the team around the world and get absolte dross served up some of the time, from players who going back a few years were apparently the golden generation!!
I know we have been unlucky but I think that was in 96 and 98 and those teams were good honest teams in my opinion, who gave everything, so you could live with the result. No one was complaining then!
2000 we didn't get out the group which was not good enough considering the players available to us.
2002 we made the 2nd round. Yes we went out to Brazil, but we went out with a whimper - they were beatable but the 'golden generation' didn't take advantage.
2004 - Come back from the France disappointment well but then penalties again - if only we could beat teams before it gets to that point eh!
2006 - Quarter finals again but it was hardly inspiring - clamber our way through and then out on pens again - We know we are s**t at them, so make sure we beat a team before it gets to that point. This was after all still the golden generation that this Country seems to droll over.
2008 - Don't even qualify
2010 - A disgrace in the group stages simple as that! Desreved that humiliation against Germany.
2012 - A bit of a back to basics more battling display. I don't think we had the players but they battled alas 96/98 teams, so no complaints from me.
Overall - Yes with the supposed 'golden generation' of players we have had over this time I think we have under-achieved when it comes to the crunch. One semi since 1966!!! Many a smaller Country than us has done better, so I think the nation and especially those who spend their hard earned supporting them have a right to be angry and frustrated to be honest.
I would be amazed if, after seven penalty shoot out defeats, that England coaches don't think about shoot outs Muttley, bearing in mind two of the recent coaches were not even English. I also doubt the practicality of practicing penalties on a train... ;-)
I invented a penalty training system on the train last year following our defeat to Italy, which I think would be simple and have a postive effect on our success rate. Do I think any England coach has thought that deeply about penalties- No -I'd be amazed if they did. We are not good at questioning how we do things and looking for a betetr way! If Hoddle said that, I am disapointed - it's up to the manager to make it part of training, not as something to opt in or out of.
I would say with quite a lot of confidence that England managers have thought more deeply about penalties than you did on a train journey one time
We are to blame as parents too - and I include myself in that. I get a lot of pleasure watching my son win trophies (Just finsihed thi sseason playing U-12s football)- I know I shouldn't but rationalise that it doesn't matter so much as he is a keeper. But it isn't about me - really it should be about him! I see a lot of teams play big (even fat) keepers - to gain an advantage - when it surely has to be about teaching a kid who has th etechnique, to become better!
This issue, however, is hardly limited to football. We don't let our children enjoy anything these days. It's all about winning. Even the Government (well Cameron and Boris) are banging on about making children at primary school be competitive at Sports Day. This probably also discourages children that develop later from getting into sports that they are rubbish at at 5 yet might be really good at by the age of 21.
This attitude has made my disinclined to push my son to take part in any sport at all. There is plenty of time for his spirit to be broken as he gets older, there is no need to make him feel like a loser before he's even got going!
To be fair we have won the odd penalty shootout as well. We beat Spain in 96.
It's very random and the nerves (and the pressure that brings) doesn't help.
Not only that but the first 5 penalties against Germany in 96 were fine, it was only when we got to Southgate who had never taken one before and lost his bowels at the crucial moment
Comments
The coaching staff do need looking at aswell. I'm not a fan of giving jobs to ex pros just because they've played abit, something the FA seem to love.
The rest had long and successful playing careers, many at the top.
Not saying there is anything to be read into that, just putting a few facts out there, rather than assuming stuff.
Most other countries play Fusbal which is like 5 a side but the ball does go out of play and is played with a low-bounce ball, meaning kids have more time to develop control, the short sided game also means they touch the ball more often and are not designated any specific position meaning what you do without the ball is just as important. My 8 year old plays and unfortunately after a few drills with 18 kids in a line, the coach proceeds to mark out a massive pitch and and have 9v9. Most kids don't touch it and the good ones just get the ball and dribble it until they score (not helping their game either). I've tried to get him to split the groups up and I'm hoping next season he'll include some of us to help do that.
I do think it's a bit of a cop out though for the Clubs to say, "Sorry, not us Guv, the problem is with the schools and junior football etc". I find it hard to believe that individual Clubs, like Charlton, wouldn't be able to secure competitive advantage by taking a more modern and enlightened approach to their Academies.
In England we seem to suffer greatly from the "Show me your medals, you don't know what happens in a dressing room" closed shop culture which resists modern thinking. Clubs that develop a more analytical, thoughtful and open style of management will be the ones that will outperform their revenues and the new financial constraints that go with them.
Every time the "Spain do this, Germany do this" phrases get carted out and "Our players are overpaid" (oh and they earn a pittance in Spain, France, Italy, Germany etc do they?)
As it has been said before, if our players could take penalties then I do believe we would have probably won a major trophy or two in the last 20 years. We would have most certainly won Euro 96 and we would have been in with a shout during World Cup 2006 and Euro 2004.
I really don't understand why fans get so angry about us not winning tournaments. We haven't won anything in 50 years, so why should we complain that we're not the best? If we were to get to the semi-finals of any major tournament then it would be a major success. If we get to the 1/4 finals, which we usually do, then we're on par with what our level is (around the 7th/8th best in the world).
We are spoilt by the fact we normally qualify. Lots of countries would love our problems.
How do you get coaches with an 1980s mentality away from coaching kids? Well the FA don't take the badges back and a lot of them give up their time and make sacrifices with the honest view they are doing the right thing. An argument is that we need more coaches too. It needs a bit of a revolution, but with any revolution, the desire to change has to be there - but overall, we don't possess that.
One thing is for sure- despite being limited, our game is entertaining. Maybe we should limit the number of foreign players and just play it as we want to, and at least our kids will have a chance that way! I do get bored watching Barcelona too!!
Did I actually just read someone saying we would have won cups if we could take penalties?? That is our typical england national team mentality. Rely on other teams to cock up.
We should sort this mess out once and for all. Forget reputations. Forget past achievements. Who is in form now?
I know we have been unlucky but I think that was in 96 and 98 and those teams were good honest teams in my opinion, who gave everything, so you could live with the result. No one was complaining then!
2000 we didn't get out the group which was not good enough considering the players available to us.
2002 we made the 2nd round. Yes we went out to Brazil, but we went out with a whimper - they were beatable but the 'golden generation' didn't take advantage.
2004 - Come back from the France disappointment well but then penalties again - if only we could beat teams before it gets to that point eh!
2006 - Quarter finals again but it was hardly inspiring - clamber our way through and then out on pens again - We know we are s**t at them, so make sure we beat a team before it gets to that point. This was after all still the golden generation that this Country seems to droll over.
2008 - Don't even qualify
2010 - A disgrace in the group stages simple as that! Desreved that humiliation against Germany.
2012 - A bit of a back to basics more battling display. I don't think we had the players but they battled alas 96/98 teams, so no complaints from me.
Overall - Yes with the supposed 'golden generation' of players we have had over this time I think we have under-achieved when it comes to the crunch. One semi since 1966!!! Many a smaller Country than us has done better, so I think the nation and especially those who spend their hard earned supporting them have a right to be angry and frustrated to be honest.
It's very random and the nerves (and the pressure that brings) doesn't help.
This attitude has made my disinclined to push my son to take part in any sport at all. There is plenty of time for his spirit to be broken as he gets older, there is no need to make him feel like a loser before he's even got going!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/england/10135909/FA-director-of-elite-development-Dan-Ashworth-takes-long-term-approach-to-England-team-revival.html