Yes some people hide their anti-Jewish bigotry (technically Arabs and Jews are both Semites) behind the term "Zionist" just as other racists use "code" words but if you thought that was what Nolly was doing that call him out on it, don't then decide that anti-Jewish discrimination is "thriving" on the basis of one comment.
Challenge it by all means, take a different view but point the finger at the individual not the group. That way lies prejudice.
Nolly said Zionist crank yes but plenty of others said bigot so, in my opinion, I felt it justifiable to make a group reference.
Calling someone a bigot is anti-semetic? I don't quite understand how.
yes Len, but Phillips views are certainly of a Zionist flavour - she wants to increase Israel's control at the detriment of other states, and she is strongly bigoted in many ways (just read her daily mail columns). not sure she is a crank as I think she is dangerous is spouting many of her strongly held neoconservative views regularly in the press.
where is the anti-Semite argument in that? I would say it is a statement of fact. it is quite possible to be a jew and a zionist and be bigoted as well. there are jews who are anti zionist, are they anti-semitic?
or are you saying that I, and others here, are not entitled to have that view? in which case, your argument that people (ie phillips) is entitled to their view and we shouldn't argue against it falls down a self-referential black hole.
Yes some people hide their anti-Jewish bigotry (technically Arabs and Jews are both Semites) behind the term "Zionist" just as other racists use "code" words but if you thought that was what Nolly was doing that call him out on it, don't then decide that anti-Jewish discrimination is "thriving" on the basis of one comment.
Challenge it by all means, take a different view but point the finger at the individual not the group. That way lies prejudice.
Nolly said Zionist crank yes but plenty of others said bigot so, in my opinion, I felt it justifiable to make a group reference.
She is a bigot and a Zionist crank.
I'm speaking as someone who (a) is generally quite pro-Israel and (b) thinks that the obsession with Palestine amongst certain segments of the left does amount to a (perhaps unconscious) anti-semitism.
All part of devaluing human life for political ends. If Jews are referred to as zionists it makes their murder by terrorist groups more politically acceptable. We can then come up with the charade "I'm not anti- semitic but" which is something the left throw disparagingly at those who question immigration policies "I'm not racist but" Abortion is another example of the same thing. Those in favour never refer to removing babies but removing foetuses. It somehow makes it more palatable and justifiable in their eyes. So yes semantics. In my opinion.
Bizarre...
As I've explained - twice now - being opposed to Zionism is not the same as being anti-semitic, they are separate things. If you choose to conflate them then that's your choice, but not one you should continue to make after you've been corrected.
If Jews are referred to as zionists it makes their murder by terrorist groups more politically acceptable.
Does it? Who said that it does? That is a staggering leap to make based on abslutely no evidence whatsoever. Are you not a little bit guilty here of putting words in other people's mouths and also are making some pretty wild assumptions? No one in this thread has been anti-semitic and no one is justifying the deaths of Jewish people.
But, if you want to oppose the devaluing of human life for political ends then why are you not critical of Melanie Phillips? After all it was she who suggested that Iran should be "neutralised" which presumably would mean the deaths of a large number of Iranians - including perhaps some of Iran's Jewish community...
Perhaps you could explain this contradiction? Surely if killing Jewish people is wrong then killing Iranians is wrong on the same basis?
Anti- semitism is still thriving on Charlton Life I see. No surprise though given the number of the Great and Good of Charlton Life who worship at the altar of the known anti semite Ken Livingstone.
Melanie Phillips, if some readers are unaware, is a Jew. Various Iranian politicians have threatened to "blow Israel out of existence" or words to that effect. Indeed two terrorist organisations, Hamas and Hezbollah (?spelling), regularly slaughter innocent Jews.
She may not have expressed herself terribly well on the programme but it is a sorry state of affairs if one is denounced as a "bigot" (as posters above have done) for expressing justifiable fears.
Mind you, come to think of it, Gordon Brown denounced a woman as a "bigot" because she questioned Labour's immigration policy.
I stand by what I said nothing further from the truth would be me being anti Jewish but I would tell anyone to their face that I personally am disgusted at the land grabbing that Israel still does in 2013 , they are not a peaceful country and need to be exposed , Melanie Phillips is a Zionist crank
And the innocent Jews being killed is a far smaller scale than the kids Israel kill when they send drone bombs over on a regular basis, lets not forget they were terrosists themselves when they were creating Israel
Tessa said something like: The banking system needs more women because the banking crisis would've never happened if there were enough women in the banking sector, as the culture that led to the banking crisis was very male dominated.
One hopes that the more reasonable on here will read what I've tried to get across rather than make every attempt to misrepresent it.
what a terrible source and what a terrible website.
The "more reasonable"!! All you have done Len is give more ammunition to the haters. Sad day.
He's clearly scoured the Internet trying to find one source to back up his madness and that's the best he could come up with. No wonder he's bowing our of this discussion, in embarrassment I'd imagine !
One hopes that the more reasonable on here will read what I've tried to get across rather than make every attempt to misrepresent it.
what a terrible source and what a terrible website.
The "more reasonable"!! All you have done Len is give more ammunition to the haters. Sad day.
My understanding of discrimination is that if the victim feels discriminated against then discrimination occurs. That is one of the tenets of legislation designed to prevent to prevent racism and hate crime generally.
Given that premise it is surely pertinent and reasonable to look at the opinions of the victims in this case ie Jewish people as to whether they think there is a material difference between anti zionism and anti semitism.
I should have known that on Charlton Life the source is always derided if the view doesn't fit! Hence why one has to waste hours finding things in The Guardian rather than posting direct from another newspaper otherwise "it doesn't count!"
Your understanding is utterly wrong. No such legislation exists in the UK nor has it ever existed. You could actually check the legislation for a source. Here it is
"A person who uses threatening words or behaviour, or displays any written material which is threatening, is guilty of an offence if he intends thereby to stir up religious hatred."
Subject to:
"Nothing in this Part shall be read or given effect in a way which prohibits or restricts discussion, criticism or expressions of antipathy, dislike, ridicule, insult or abuse of particular religions or the beliefs or practices of their adherents, or of any other belief system or the beliefs or practices of its adherents, or proselytising or urging adherents of a different religion or belief system to cease practising their religion or belief system"
Why do you keep bringing the guardian up ? plenty of writers in there who share your own view so try another angle , who wrote that piece you put up ? I have a idea
Here's one called "How the Left turned against the Jews" from Nick Cohen, the left-wing columnist from the Observer.
One can be suspicipious of the basis of segments the left's obsession with Israel to the exclusion of much, much worse regimes, without having to go to the extremes of Melanie Phillips and her ilk.
The Guardian is a very good newspaper and contrary to Torygraph readers beliefs , is not full of yoghurt knitting lefties but people like Len have made their mind up and sadly are are never going to change .
Your understanding is utterly wrong. No such legislation exists in the UK nor has it ever existed. You could actually check the legislation for a source. Here it is
"A person who uses threatening words or behaviour, or displays any written material which is threatening, is guilty of an offence if he intends thereby to stir up religious hatred."
Subject to:
"Nothing in this Part shall be read or given effect in a way which prohibits or restricts discussion, criticism or expressions of antipathy, dislike, ridicule, insult or abuse of particular religions or the beliefs or practices of their adherents, or of any other belief system or the beliefs or practices of its adherents, or proselytising or urging adherents of a different religion or belief system to cease practising their religion or belief system"
You're a lawyer and I'm not but, as a layman, how do you explain this then?
...."Hate crime can include physical attacks, offensive grafitti, the threat of attack, verbal abuse and bullying at school. The police's definition of a hate crime is: 'Any incident, which constitutes a criminal offence, which is perceived by the victim or any other person as being motivated by prejudice or hate.' So in short, if you think it's racism, it is racism."....
Is there a special exemption for Israelis and Jews because I thought that was what I said.
The Guardian is a very good newspaper and contrary to Torygraph readers beliefs , is not full of yoghurt knitting lefties but people like Len have made their mind up and sadly are are never going to change .
I actually quite like The Guardian, contrary to what you say, but you try putting a link up on Charlton Life from, say, the Daily Mail and see the reaction from the usual suspects!
That is my point.
Too many on here deride the source and take the piss out of the poster rather than engage with the issue at hand.
Sometimes life is too short to bother to play the stupid game thus debate is suppressed which is probably the intention of some.
The Guardian read by lefty comie tofu eating tree huging socialist moralistic twonks----fact The Daily Mail read by the great and the good---------------fact
Brilliant Len. The biggest load of guff, I've read on here for ages. So bad that I even had to agree with BFR.
"So in short, if you think it's racism, it is racism." - That really is classic & explains why every chip on their shoulder person can feel justified, in thinking that way.
Here's one called "How the Left turned against the Jews" from Nick Cohen, the left-wing columnist from the Observer.
One can be suspicipious of the basis of segments the left's obsession with Israel to the exclusion of much, much worse regimes, without having to go to the extremes of Melanie Phillips and her ilk.
Nick Cohen...left-wing?
He may write in the Observer (so does Joshua Rozenberg) but he's a fully fledged Neo-Con supporter of the Iraq war and peddler of lazy right-wing memes about anyone left of centre.
Comments
where is the anti-Semite argument in that? I would say it is a statement of fact. it is quite possible to be a jew and a zionist and be bigoted as well. there are jews who are anti zionist, are they anti-semitic?
or are you saying that I, and others here, are not entitled to have that view? in which case, your argument that people (ie phillips) is entitled to their view and we shouldn't argue against it falls down a self-referential black hole.
I'm speaking as someone who (a) is generally quite pro-Israel and (b) thinks that the obsession with Palestine amongst certain segments of the left does amount to a (perhaps unconscious) anti-semitism.
All part of devaluing human life for political ends.
If Jews are referred to as zionists it makes their murder by terrorist groups more politically acceptable.
We can then come up with the charade "I'm not anti- semitic but" which is something the left throw disparagingly at those who question immigration policies "I'm not racist but"
Abortion is another example of the same thing. Those in favour never refer to removing babies but removing foetuses. It somehow makes it more palatable and justifiable in their eyes.
So yes semantics.
In my opinion.
Bizarre...
As I've explained - twice now - being opposed to Zionism is not the same as being anti-semitic, they are separate things. If you choose to conflate them then that's your choice, but not one you should continue to make after you've been corrected.
If Jews are referred to as zionists it makes their murder by terrorist groups more politically acceptable.
Does it? Who said that it does? That is a staggering leap to make based on abslutely no evidence whatsoever. Are you not a little bit guilty here of putting words in other people's mouths and also are making some pretty wild assumptions? No one in this thread has been anti-semitic and no one is justifying the deaths of Jewish people.
But, if you want to oppose the devaluing of human life for political ends then why are you not critical of Melanie Phillips? After all it was she who suggested that Iran should be "neutralised" which presumably would mean the deaths of a large number of Iranians - including perhaps some of Iran's Jewish community...
Perhaps you could explain this contradiction? Surely if killing Jewish people is wrong then killing Iranians is wrong on the same basis?
In essence anti zionists are anti semitic.
I'm bowing out of this one now.
One hopes that the more reasonable on here will read what I've tried to get across rather than make every attempt to misrepresent it.
The "more reasonable"!! All you have done Len is give more ammunition to the haters. Sad day.
Given that premise it is surely pertinent and reasonable to look at the opinions of the victims in this case ie Jewish people as to whether they think there is a material difference between anti zionism and anti semitism.
I should have known that on Charlton Life the source is always derided if the view doesn't fit! Hence why one has to waste hours finding things in The Guardian rather than posting direct from another newspaper otherwise "it doesn't count!"
"A person who uses threatening words or behaviour, or displays any written material which is threatening, is guilty of an offence if he intends thereby to stir up religious hatred."
Subject to:
"Nothing in this Part shall be read or given effect in a way which prohibits or restricts discussion, criticism or expressions of antipathy, dislike, ridicule, insult or abuse of particular religions or the beliefs or practices of their adherents, or of any other belief system or the beliefs or practices of its adherents, or proselytising or urging adherents of a different religion or belief system to cease practising their religion or belief system"
Here's one called "How the Left turned against the Jews" from Nick Cohen, the left-wing columnist from the Observer.
One can be suspicipious of the basis of segments the left's obsession with Israel to the exclusion of much, much worse regimes, without having to go to the extremes of Melanie Phillips and her ilk.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/advice/factfile_az/racism
...."Hate crime can include physical attacks, offensive grafitti, the threat of attack, verbal abuse and bullying at school. The police's definition of a hate crime is: 'Any incident, which constitutes a criminal offence, which is perceived by the victim or any other person as being motivated by prejudice or hate.' So in short, if you think it's racism, it is racism."....
Is there a special exemption for Israelis and Jews because I thought that was what I said.
That is my point.
Too many on here deride the source and take the piss out of the poster rather than engage with the issue at hand.
Sometimes life is too short to bother to play the stupid game thus debate is suppressed which is probably the intention of some.
The post is sunk!
EDIT: Swear word uttered in sheer annoyance and frustration removed.
The Daily Mail read by the great and the good---------------fact
"So in short, if you think it's racism, it is racism." - That really is classic & explains why every chip on their shoulder person can feel justified, in thinking that way.
He may write in the Observer (so does Joshua Rozenberg) but he's a fully fledged Neo-Con supporter of the Iraq war and peddler of lazy right-wing memes about anyone left of centre.