Option e, moving towards breaking even, despite relegations, has got to be the only realistic long-term aim. The alternative is a rich sugar daddy/mummy, which we simply ain't gonna get. Unless Bill Gates is an Addick of course, or I win the euromillions.
Am I the only one who's happy to be a championship club? I like being able to afford going to a majority of games with good atmosphere
But you're not happy. : - )
You have been frustrated all summer that you've had no "exciting" new signings to talk about. That's the reality of the Championship without either a rich owner or parachute payments.
If you are happy with few or no signings and/or better players eventually leaving to "bigger" clubs then fine, we can stay a championship club
Part of the losses of CAFC are a £1M depreciation charge based on writing off all of the build costs paid ovsoer the years - this is not cash.losses is to invest The prospect of someone buying the club to downsize it does not realistically exist! Why take on a mid range sports car to convert it into a Hyundai Matrix? Peter Varney has shown that the sensible thing is to buy non league and build up if you don't have appetite for big losses. Once again the real prospect of recouping losses is to invest in promotion. People talk with authority that backers have walked away and perhaps this needs to be resolved... However it occurs to me that there is another way forwards...
I have no concrete evidence, but I would not be surprised if the majority of the clubs in the Championship are in the same position as us. They would all like to make 4 or 5 expensive-ish signings to push into the top spots, but few can afford. From a distant view, perhaps, last season's Championship was led by relatively big spenders, Cardiff, saw a bunch of clubs yoyoing about between 7th and 22nd and Palace sneaking up with 'just enough' and some good youngsters.
Much as I hate to admit, the Palace way is the way forward for most teams in the Championship - bring on some youngsters and then sneak into the top pack. On the youngsters front, we seem to be doing pretty well, although we may need to wait another couple of years. So, I don't think it's all doom and gloom, but clearly it's a division that we could drop from if we don't have just enough.
Why are the overheads on The Valley so high? Stadium is generally in good order and is not the biggest either.
Is there something that is pushing the figure up in comparison to other stadiums in the league?
The Valley is much bigger than London Rd or Gresty Rd (P'Boro and Crewe's grounds). In league one it is huge in comparison to most others. So it requires a lot more in maintenance, rates, and stewards/staffing. Think about looking after a one bedroom flat or a five bedroom house. Which would cost more?
This is not just a problem for us but the "parr down costs and get by in league 1" theory was shown not to work. We almost got away with it the season Bailey missed the penalty but not quite.
We only got out of league 1 by spending a lot of Kevin Cash's cash. We lost £7.46m in league one. The board did very well WHEN WE HAD KEVIN'S CASH. Since he stopped the money we've been hard up as shown by the minimal investment last summer and the minimal investment this summer.
We are spending less than the maximum we can under Financial Fair Play but don't think that is because we are being clever or leaving room to splash out later. It's because Cash isn't funding the Club any more so we just don't have the money.
In the meantime Jimenez and Slater have kept the Club going for which they deserve some credit but don't kid yourself that it is all going smoothly and this was all planned.
The board want to sell and I hope they get their wish ASAP. What the new owners will be like we don't know but the same questions I was asking when this board took over still apply
1. Who owns the Club?
2. What is the Business Plan?
3. How is the Business Plan being funded?
4. What are the plans for the Valley?
5. What are the plans for the Academy?
6. What is the exit strategy?
How your tune has changed.I've never seen Kevin Cash mentioned on your Holy grail the OS?
Why are the overheads on The Valley so high? Stadium is generally in good order and is not the biggest either.
Is there something that is pushing the figure up in comparison to other stadiums in the league?
The Valley is much bigger than London Rd or Gresty Rd (P'Boro and Crewe's grounds). In league one it is huge in comparison to most others. So it requires a lot more in maintenance, rates, and stewards/staffing. Think about looking after a one bedroom flat or a five bedroom house. Which would cost more?
This is not just a problem for us but the "parr down costs and get by in league 1" theory was shown not to work. We almost got away with it the season Bailey missed the penalty but not quite.
We only got out of league 1 by spending a lot of Kevin Cash's cash. We lost £7.46m in league one. The board did very well WHEN WE HAD KEVIN'S CASH. Since he stopped the money we've been hard up as shown by the minimal investment last summer and the minimal investment this summer.
We are spending less than the maximum we can under Financial Fair Play but don't think that is because we are being clever or leaving room to splash out later. It's because Cash isn't funding the Club any more so we just don't have the money.
In the meantime Jimenez and Slater have kept the Club going for which they deserve some credit but don't kid yourself that it is all going smoothly and this was all planned.
The board want to sell and I hope they get their wish ASAP. What the new owners will be like we don't know but the same questions I was asking when this board took over still apply
1. Who owns the Club?
2. What is the Business Plan?
3. How is the Business Plan being funded?
4. What are the plans for the Valley?
5. What are the plans for the Academy?
6. What is the exit strategy?
How your tune has changed.I've never seen Kevin Cash mentioned on your Holy grail the OS?
LOL
Misquoted and misunderstood as every ; - )
What I've always said is "I'l believe it when it is on the OS"
Of course when we first returned to the Valley we maintained a tight ship, selling players regularly (Lee, Barness 92, Webster 93, Minto 94, Bowyer 96) and spent nothing much on transfers until 5 years later in 97 when we bought Super Clive and Matt Holmes, in a clear sign of intent, then added Mills and Youds when promotion was a possibility, so it's not as if we previously splashed the cash when playing at this level.
Hopefully once financial fair play fully takes effect which may take a number of years all clubs will hopefully cut their cloth accordingly and all run without the loses we currently have. Players will start to receive sensible and realistic wages at most clubs and we will hopefully be players preferred choice due to large support, great ground and London location. If this means competing regularly at Championship level that will do for me. I actually like the Championship with some great historic clubs, passionate fans and less foreign owners spoiling the great game for all of us genuine die hard supporters.
Am I the only one who's happy to be a championship club? I like being able to afford going to a majority of games with good atmosphere
But you're not happy. : - )
You have been frustrated all summer that you've had no "exciting" new signings to talk about. That's the reality of the Championship without either a rich owner or parachute payments.
If you are happy with few or no signings and/or better players eventually leaving to "bigger" clubs then fine, we can stay a championship club
Conceptually i would rather we stayed a championship club, but the reality is you can't. Ultimately you stagnate and decline. I dislike everything that the Premiership stands for but whilst footballs structure stays as it is, it is the only way for long term survival, albeit maybe as a yo yo club.
For me in any loss making business you have to make choices, here's an example
a) sell and minimise your loss (ideal but what if you can't sell) small loss/break even/small profit ONLY IF YOU CAN FIND A BUYER b) carrying on adding to your losses and get nowhere, except more losses, but hold out for a sale, could be a £20m loss ONLY IF YOU HAVE MONEY OR ACCESS TO LOANS TO KEEP GOING c) go for broke and find a bit more go for broke end up losing even more than b). £25m loss - or big jackpot payout ONLY IF YOU HAVE MONEY OR ACCESS TO LOANS d) wind it up and walk away with £15m loss NOT VERY ATTRACTIVE TO YOUR BACKERS e) pair it all down to break even, could be in League 1 the following year, and a further reduction in income WE CAN'T BREAK EVEN IN THIS LEAGUE AND WE HAVE PARRED IT DOWN ALMOST TO THE BONE ALREADY. LEAGUE ONE WOULD BE EVEN WORSE. OUR OVERHEAD ON THE VALLEY IS JUST TOO HIGH AND YOU THEN GET STUCK IN LEAGUE. OR WORSE.
what would you do?
Only A and B are real options since Kevin Cash stopped funding the Club but A & B rely on an outside party buying the Club which the current owners can't control.
Henry, are you saying that unless a buyer is found now the club will go bust ?
For me in any loss making business you have to make choices, here's an example
a) sell and minimise your loss (ideal but what if you can't sell) small loss/break even/small profit ONLY IF YOU CAN FIND A BUYER b) carrying on adding to your losses and get nowhere, except more losses, but hold out for a sale, could be a £20m loss ONLY IF YOU HAVE MONEY OR ACCESS TO LOANS TO KEEP GOING c) go for broke and find a bit more go for broke end up losing even more than b). £25m loss - or big jackpot payout ONLY IF YOU HAVE MONEY OR ACCESS TO LOANS d) wind it up and walk away with £15m loss NOT VERY ATTRACTIVE TO YOUR BACKERS e) pair it all down to break even, could be in League 1 the following year, and a further reduction in income WE CAN'T BREAK EVEN IN THIS LEAGUE AND WE HAVE PARRED IT DOWN ALMOST TO THE BONE ALREADY. LEAGUE ONE WOULD BE EVEN WORSE. OUR OVERHEAD ON THE VALLEY IS JUST TOO HIGH AND YOU THEN GET STUCK IN LEAGUE. OR WORSE.
what would you do?
Only A and B are real options since Kevin Cash stopped funding the Club but A & B rely on an outside party buying the Club which the current owners can't control.
Henry, are you saying that unless a buyer is found now the club will go bust ?
it'd be interesting to know what the running costs of the Valley are total and breakdown, presumably that is why we were going to add to the East stand with executive boxes to bring in more revenue?
Not really. Same price they got for him 6 months ago and doubt QPR had actually paid it all anyway.
On topic...the other option is a variation on Henry's (b)...carry on adding to your losses and get somewhere! Someone else has already mentioned several clubs who threw money at this league and are still here. And others who were more frugal, but added well to already decent teams and went up. Even if you come straight back down, that one year is transformative, or can be, if used properly (both the funds and the opportunities afforded).
We've invested so far in a league winning team, which then got used to the Championship & competed well. We've also got a raft of youngsters coming through what is turning into one of the best academies in the country. Callum showed what's possible, hopefully others will follow.
We will have to sell to reduce losses. We always have, let's not kid ourselves. Every club bar a handful is in the same boat. Yes, we're bigger than the other CAFC, but whilst our overheads are higher, so are the opportunities. Ideally, we need to start to reduce losses over the next couple of years and are then not held to ransom if and when a "big" club comes after one of our stars, as we were with JonJo & Liverpool.
losses might be down to £4.5m before any new signings... Fuller was on a big wedge so perhaps £1.5m has come off the wage bill. The point is that "only" £3M of the loss can be funded with loans. TV monies arrive in September so lets see what happens over next two months
It comes in early to mid August. That was how we were able to get the first home match on last season, by using it to pay bills from matches played in March.
Why are the overheads on The Valley so high? Stadium is generally in good order and is not the biggest either.
Is there something that is pushing the figure up in comparison to other stadiums in the league?
The Valley is much bigger than London Rd or Gresty Rd (P'Boro and Crewe's grounds). In league one it is huge in comparison to most others. So it requires a lot more in maintenance, rates, and stewards/staffing. Think about looking after a one bedroom flat or a five bedroom house. Which would cost more?
This is not just a problem for us but the "parr down costs and get by in league 1" theory was shown not to work. We almost got away with it the season Bailey missed the penalty but not quite.
We only got out of league 1 by spending a lot of Kevin Cash's cash. We lost £7.46m in league one. The board did very well WHEN WE HAD KEVIN'S CASH. Since he stopped the money we've been hard up as shown by the minimal investment last summer and the minimal investment this summer.
We are spending less than the maximum we can under Financial Fair Play but don't think that is because we are being clever or leaving room to splash out later. It's because Cash isn't funding the Club any more so we just don't have the money.
In the meantime Jimenez and Slater have kept the Club going for which they deserve some credit but don't kid yourself that it is all going smoothly and this was all planned.
The board want to sell and I hope they get their wish ASAP. What the new owners will be like we don't know but the same questions I was asking when this board took over still apply
1. Who owns the Club?
2. What is the Business Plan?
3. How is the Business Plan being funded?
4. What are the plans for the Valley?
5. What are the plans for the Academy?
6. What is the exit strategy?
...................
Put neatly into a nutshell. One small query though, exactly how have JT and MS kept the club going? Banks won't lend so the money has most likely been raised by private loans. It's the whys and wherefores of the probable hidden loans that bother me.
I think the original expectation when the board took over was that the club would be closer to self financing than it actually is when it got to the Championship. A reduction in Championship TV revenue was a factor, but probably just as great a one was an underestimation of the costs required to compete at this level. However, the model being used for Charlton seems to me to be quite a sound one though in the long term, with investment in bringing players through and improving existing players. When the fair play rules bed in, they will be a psoitive too I imagine.
I wouldn’t imagine Paul Hart and other aspects of our academy are the cheapest options. It is not unreasonable to expect dividends from this approach in the near future. We have an exciting talent in Harriot who broke into the team last season and who is to say we won’t have one or two more this season. If you produce a good number of young players of the right quality, it increases revenue as they tend to be cheaper and they provide you with a dividend when you sell them.
When you look at the success of our young players, this is probably the best way forwards for us, rather than spending big bringing players in. Maybe that is the real challenge next season – to bed a few into the team and remain competitive. It is tantalising, as we only finished 3 points out of the play offs and tempting to want to take some risks and bring players in to go one better, but these players could block opportunities and development for the youngsters. We brought Fuller in after the season had started last year and maybe we ought to have a good look at our three young strikers and see if any of them might be ready first.
I don’t think it is as doom and gloom as people may think.
Am I the only one who's happy to be a championship club? I like being able to afford going to a majority of games with good atmosphere
I empathise with what you and BlackForest say. I'm not seduced by the show-biz glitz of the Prem, all the Sky hype, the mucking around with regular Saturday fixtures, the bluster and nonsense of it all - and the very real prospect of losing week after week. Yet, it's a basic human instinct to want our club to hit the heights. In the spring of 1982 when we were sixth in the (old) Second Division, Alan Mullery asked Michael Gliksten for £15,000 to buy two experienced players to help our push for promotion. Gliksten refused and told Mullery he didn't really want Charlton to be in the top division because the increased wages could cripple the club. Mullery and the team were disillusioned: we won only once in the last 11 games, and finished in mid-table.
The problem with the Premiership is that it is the getting there that is fun. Getting beaten every week isn't so great! Having said that - if you can be competetive, games like 4-2 win at Arsenal - beating Liverpool - come back against Man Utd are all very special. I doubt Palace will have too many of those special moments next season and it will be a chore rather than a joy for their fans- much as it was for QPR fans last!
It must be (c) and hope aim for the jackpot bit! That MUST be the 5 year plan - otherwise they would never have bought into it in the first place. These are not stupid guys.
But that means ignoring the other clubs in this leaque which are likely to get promoted, QPR for example.
The problem with the Premiership is that it is the getting there that is fun. Getting beaten every week isn't so great! Having said that - if you can be competetive, games like 4-2 win at Arsenal - beating Liverpool - come back against Man Utd are all very special. I doubt Palace will have too many of those special moments next season and it will be a chore rather than a joy for their fans- much as it was for QPR fans last!
Our season in the PL after the playoff win had plenty of highs, it's not as if you're being thrashed every week, and if you're going to lose I'd rather it be to RVP and Bale rather than Millwall or Barnsley.
But that means ignoring the other clubs in this leaque which are likely to get promoted, QPR for example.
I'm not sure that I'd make QPR favourites for promotion just yet. They epitomise everything that's wrong with the premiership - an expensively assembled squad full of footballing mercenaries with no team ethos. After relegation many of their better paid players will be off and I wonder how much fight there will be in what's left?
I think killerandflash is right - I would rather lose to Stoke than Barnsley plus I think you rarely see a very poor game in the Premiership. The highs are only matched just about by 6-0 wins at Barnsley.
Yes, it is more satisfying to beat a Premiership side and to lose to Man Utd than Barnsley. But the regularity of defeats can be pretty depressing. When you go on a run of defeats – which happens more often in the Premiership, you stop following the club so closely – on TV etc.. ad you are on a bit of a downer.
The ideal is to get up and be in a position to compete at a mid-table level – which we used to do and could do again – that is something we could not have achieved if we had gained promotion last season and something Palace certainly won’t be able to achieve. I must admit, I gain more pleasure by beating Yeovil than losing to Arsenal but maybe that is just me.
I want us to get promoted because it is pretty depressing starting a season with no wish to be successful. You have lots of happy memories from a successful season too. I ‘m really looking forwards to next season and I think that in the longer team the club has a lot more going for it than most. Palace fans will be looking forwards to next season too, but I predict they will get fed up with it much sooner than wed do!
The problem with the Premiership is that it is the getting there that is fun. Getting beaten every week isn't so great! Having said that - if you can be competetive, games like 4-2 win at Arsenal - beating Liverpool - come back against Man Utd are all very special. I doubt Palace will have too many of those special moments next season and it will be a chore rather than a joy for their fans- much as it was for QPR fans last!
Nicely put. Personally, I'd rather watch a winning team in a lower division than a losing team in a higher division. (Unfortunately I'm old enough to remember with great fondness our promotion from the old Third in 1981.) But that's not the only option: we were quite recently a model of sustainability in the Prem. With our excellent academy, astute young manager, hearty club ethos, decent ground, healthy attendances - and the kudos of being located in London - why are we so unattractive to serious investors?
I can't comment on directors deferred loans except to say that they are not secured on The Valley so no linkage as far as I can see... perhaps new owners don't want old directors hanging around?!
And the current board simply cannot secure loans against the Valley because banks do NOT lend to football clubs anymore! Not since the credit crunch... not since Aviva and HBOS each lost £10-20M to Southampton and Palace...
I don't pretend to be an expert on these matters, so perhaps you're right, but this is what the 2012 accounts say (p19) of the £8.55m (then) owed to the former directors and Richard Murray:
"The loans are secured over the fixed and floating charges of the company's assets".
Now accepting that the company (CAFC Ltd) pays nominal rent on The Valley to Charlton Athletic Holdings Limited (which confusingly is another subsidiary of Baton 2010 Ltd and not the ultimate BVI-registered CAFC Holdings Limited) and the player registrations revert to the FL, what does this mean in practice the loans are secured against?
Comments
Unless Bill Gates is an Addick of course, or I win the euromillions.
You have been frustrated all summer that you've had no "exciting" new signings to talk about. That's the reality of the Championship without either a rich owner or parachute payments.
If you are happy with few or no signings and/or better players eventually leaving to "bigger" clubs then fine, we can stay a championship club
The prospect of someone buying the club to downsize it does not realistically exist! Why take on a mid range sports car to convert it into a Hyundai Matrix?
Peter Varney has shown that the sensible thing is to buy non league and build up if you don't have appetite for big losses.
Once again the real prospect of recouping losses is to invest in promotion.
People talk with authority that backers have walked away and perhaps this needs to be resolved...
However it occurs to me that there is another way forwards...
Much as I hate to admit, the Palace way is the way forward for most teams in the Championship - bring on some youngsters and then sneak into the top pack. On the youngsters front, we seem to be doing pretty well, although we may need to wait another couple of years. So, I don't think it's all doom and gloom, but clearly it's a division that we could drop from if we don't have just enough.
How your tune has changed.I've never seen Kevin Cash mentioned on your Holy grail the OS?
Misquoted and misunderstood as every ; - )
What I've always said is "I'l believe it when it is on the OS"
Not "Only believe what is on the OS".
On topic...the other option is a variation on Henry's (b)...carry on adding to your losses and get somewhere! Someone else has already mentioned several clubs who threw money at this league and are still here. And others who were more frugal, but added well to already decent teams and went up. Even if you come straight back down, that one year is transformative, or can be, if used properly (both the funds and the opportunities afforded).
We've invested so far in a league winning team, which then got used to the Championship & competed well. We've also got a raft of youngsters coming through what is turning into one of the best academies in the country. Callum showed what's possible, hopefully others will follow.
We will have to sell to reduce losses. We always have, let's not kid ourselves. Every club bar a handful is in the same boat. Yes, we're bigger than the other CAFC, but whilst our overheads are higher, so are the opportunities. Ideally, we need to start to reduce losses over the next couple of years and are then not held to ransom if and when a "big" club comes after one of our stars, as we were with JonJo & Liverpool.
Put neatly into a nutshell. One small query though, exactly how have JT and MS kept the club going? Banks won't lend so the money has most likely been raised by private loans. It's the whys and wherefores of the probable hidden loans that bother me.
I wouldn’t imagine Paul Hart and other aspects of our academy are the cheapest options. It is not unreasonable to expect dividends from this approach in the near future. We have an exciting talent in Harriot who broke into the team last season and who is to say we won’t have one or two more this season. If you produce a good number of young players of the right quality, it increases revenue as they tend to be cheaper and they provide you with a dividend when you sell them.
When you look at the success of our young players, this is probably the best way forwards for us, rather than spending big bringing players in. Maybe that is the real challenge next season – to bed a few into the team and remain competitive. It is tantalising, as we only finished 3 points out of the play offs and tempting to want to take some risks and bring players in to go one better, but these players could block opportunities and development for the youngsters. We brought Fuller in after the season had started last year and maybe we ought to have a good look at our three young strikers and see if any of them might be ready first.
I don’t think it is as doom and gloom as people may think.
I'm not sure that I'd make QPR favourites for promotion just yet. They epitomise everything that's wrong with the premiership - an expensively assembled squad full of footballing mercenaries with no team ethos. After relegation many of their better paid players will be off and I wonder how much fight there will be in what's left?
The ideal is to get up and be in a position to compete at a mid-table level – which we used to do and could do again – that is something we could not have achieved if we had gained promotion last season and something Palace certainly won’t be able to achieve. I must admit, I gain more pleasure by beating Yeovil than losing to Arsenal but maybe that is just me.
I want us to get promoted because it is pretty depressing starting a season with no wish to be successful. You have lots of happy memories from a successful season too. I ‘m really looking forwards to next season and I think that in the longer team the club has a lot more going for it than most. Palace fans will be looking forwards to next season too, but I predict they will get fed up with it much sooner than wed do!
"The loans are secured over the fixed and floating charges of the company's assets".
Now accepting that the company (CAFC Ltd) pays nominal rent on The Valley to Charlton Athletic Holdings Limited (which confusingly is another subsidiary of Baton 2010 Ltd and not the ultimate BVI-registered CAFC Holdings Limited) and the player registrations revert to the FL, what does this mean in practice the loans are secured against?