I've got an extra large back of popcorn out on this.
Some good points BFR, but you do like to jump not only centuries, but countries/terrains as well.
This is about The First Battle of The Somme and the heaviest losses in British Military history. This Battle wasn't a defeat and what was learned took us on to defeat the Germans in the last 100 days of the war two years later.
This wasn't about the Americans entering the War (indeed they didn't enter in any vast numbers until a year later) or the on going Blockade of the German High Fleet. This was about us developing tactics that eventually defeated the Germans. We didn't copy the French (like the Americans did on Chermain de Dammes) because of the massive losses they suffered - and continued to suffer the following year during the Nivelle offensive.
This was a war of attrition and was an attempt to drain the German resources and deflect attention away from Verdun - which is exactly what it achieved. The British Front doubled in size from what was originally planned due to the French need for troops further South.
Ludendorff himself said;
On the Somme the enemy's powerful artillery, assisted by excellent aeroplane observation and fed with enormous supplies of ammunition, had kept down our own fire and destroyed our artillery. The most pressing demands of our officers were for an increase of artillery, ammunition, aircraft and balloons, as well as larger and more punctual allotments of fresh divisions and other troops to make possible a better system of reliefs.
The equipment of the Entente armies with war material had been carried out on a scale hitherto unknown. The Battle of the Somme showed us every day how great was the advantage of the enemy in this respect.
The soldier on the battlefield, who endures the most terrible strain that any man can undergo, stands, in his hour of need, in dire want of this moral reinforcement from home, to enable him to stand firm and hold out at the front.
Hi BFR, I am not ignoring anything as I and most historians are in unison that the introduction of the American Expeditionary Forces forced the German hand on 21 march 1918 so had to be a key element in both the failure of the German Spring Offensive(s) in 1918, I am the guide for the National World War One Museum Kansas City (the US equivalent of the IWM) so know the ground well, I have a book coming out on the US in the Great War next year so happy to share it with you when a copy arrives.
The 21 March was a very important day, as you suggest the Germans did capture a lot of ground and 21,000 prisoners but that should be considered within the facts that the ground captures was with one small exception in the 16th Irish Divisions sector, entirely the British forward zone and buffer battle zones, this was the ground we were prepared to give, our line was meant to buckle provided it did not break, by offering Prince Rupprecht the prize of Amiens Railhead (not his objective) we were able to split his army from the crown princes forces to the north that were being held by Julian Byngs Third Army, Goughs Fifth Army to the south were able to continue their retreat back to Villers Brett where with the use of fresh Australian Divisions and our own 58th London Division halt any further advance.
I gave a presentation on the March offensives to the Royal United Services Institute in Whitehall a couple of years ago and we had a really interesting debate about whether the fog on the day helped or hindered the advance.
I am keen for a Charlton Life tour to visit the battlefields once I have completed the memorial project, would love you to come along and we could no doubt chat for hours over our own interpretations of events during the Great War. What you see is what you get with me, I don't want to get dragged into a he said/she said debate and forums are easy places for that to evolve. So look out for the tour and come along, I hope we can tie in a Racing club Lens or Lille game whilst we are there.
It might interest you to know how much the British value German military thinking, when I was an instructor at Sandhurst in late 1980's we had German veteran officers of WWII still on the historical staff and even today 4 out of the 8 members of the Lecturing department are Germans.
I think some of the confusion is down to the facts stated in the Political history of World war one which stated that there were 60,000 casualties on day one of the Somme. Most people read casualty as death, when in fact it's a mixture of both dead and wounded. 20,000 dead (5000 in the first hour) and up to 40,000 wounded would be closer to the truth.
Going to Ypres this coming Friday with my eldest son and his school.
my great granddad got the military cross at Ypres I really want to get out there and just pay my respects to those that fell since doing the research I find what they done just totally inspiring but unbelievable
Going to Ypres this coming Friday with my eldest son and his school.
my great granddad got the military cross at Ypres I really want to get out there and just pay my respects to those that fell since doing the research I find what they done just totally inspiring but unbelievable
Very easy to do fella, about an hours or just over drive from Calais.
I know Ypres isn't the subject of this thread, sorry for hijacking a bit.
One of the most emotional/fascinating days for me.
Time conspired against us to get to the Menin Gate, but we got to Tyne Cot where the school held a short wreath laying ceremony at the grave of an unknown soldier.
One of the lads caught glimpse of his surname and initials on the memorial list at the back of the cemetery. It reduced him to tears, I suspect a combination of what he had seen throughout the day bring home the futility of conflict. I've said this on Facebook but I think every teenager should be taken to the area to ram it home what happened almost 100 years ago.
If you don't mind I'll post a few pics up later if that's ok?
My grandfather died in Ypres 1915 aged 26. He was awarded a D.C.M. for his actions that led to his death. No one from our family had ever been to his grave. In fact they didn't even seem to know where it was and, as was common at that time, they didn't really talk about him. However following much research by myself and my wife, his grave was located and in 2004 we became the first of his family to place flowers at the headstone. It was a humbling experience, but i felt a sense of honour due to 'finding him' His war was to be 'the war to end all wars' How sad that has been proven wrong, so many times since.
Fantastic photos. A relative of mine is on the menin gate, and another relative lost a leg at Ypres. At the age of about 10 I was determined to find it :S
SE7toSE3 have you ever heard of the Durand group who uncover underground WWI tunnels? My dad is involved with them
Will be there again this weekend at 3 o clock in the morning. Hopefully this time my light battery won't run out and leave me navigating by moonlight and the white stripe on the road.
This was one of the highlights of the ride I did in 2013 - chills down my spine (and not because I didn't pack a warm jersey)
We will never forget. God bless all who died, who were wounded, or lived through that hell.
Remembering my late Grandad, who was wounded in the Battle of the Somme, 3 July 1916 when very many of his young friends and colleagues in the Royal North West Kents were killed.
Who are these men who march so proud, Who quietly weep, eyes closed, head bowed? These are the men who once were boys, Who missed out on youth and all it's joys.
Who are these men with aged faces, Who silently count the empty spaces? These are the men who gave their all, Who fought for their country for freedom for all.
Who are these men with sorrowful look Who can still remember the lives that were took? These are the men who saw young men die, The price of peace is always high.
Who are these men who in the midst of pain, Whispered comfort to those they would not see again? These are the men whose hands held tomorrow, Who brought back our future with blood tears and sorrow.
Who are these men who promise to keep Alive in their hearts the ones God holds asleep? These are the men to whom I promise again: 'Veterans',my friends-I will remember them !.
(Written by: an 'unknown'-12 year old girl-1966.)
Didn't know this one until my son bought it home from.a lesson this year
Just before starting (in an attack) he wrote us a parting letter, which was to be sent to us if he were dead or missing. He was quite prepared, at peace with the world and everyone. …………… 'This, I fear, may be the end of what I consider a noble and glorious history of as fine and gallant son as was ever given to a father and mother – a career but for your sound judgement & kindly nature might never have been & for which I hope you will feel proud and gratified.' Last letter home of Captain Arthur Kilby Victoria Cross, MC, Twice Mentioned in Despatches 2/South Staffordshire Regiment
Whilst he was killed at Loos not the Somme his letter sums up that generation and today of all days we should remember them. Lest we forget
Went to both Verdun and Peronne on our recent trip, drove out to battlefields etc. Really interesting days out driving around and the museum at Peronne is well worth a visit.
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Professional Historian 2
Some good points BFR, but you do like to jump not only centuries, but countries/terrains as well.
This is about The First Battle of The Somme and the heaviest losses in British Military history. This Battle wasn't a defeat and what was learned took us on to defeat the Germans in the last 100 days of the war two years later.
This wasn't about the Americans entering the War (indeed they didn't enter in any vast numbers until a year later) or the on going Blockade of the German High Fleet. This was about us developing tactics that eventually defeated the Germans. We didn't copy the French (like the Americans did on Chermain de Dammes) because of the massive losses they suffered - and continued to suffer the following year during the Nivelle offensive.
This was a war of attrition and was an attempt to drain the German resources and deflect attention away from Verdun - which is exactly what it achieved. The British Front doubled in size from what was originally planned due to the French need for troops further South.
Ludendorff himself said;
On the Somme the enemy's powerful artillery, assisted by excellent aeroplane observation and fed with enormous supplies of ammunition, had kept down our own fire and destroyed our artillery. The most pressing demands of our officers were for an increase of artillery, ammunition, aircraft and balloons, as well as larger and more punctual allotments of fresh divisions and other troops to make possible a better system of reliefs.
The equipment of the Entente armies with war material had been carried out on a scale hitherto unknown. The Battle of the Somme showed us every day how great was the advantage of the enemy in this respect.
The soldier on the battlefield, who endures the most terrible strain that any man can undergo, stands, in his hour of need, in dire want of this moral reinforcement from home, to enable him to stand firm and hold out at the front.
The 21 March was a very important day, as you suggest the Germans did capture a lot of ground and 21,000 prisoners but that should be considered within the facts that the ground captures was with one small exception in the 16th Irish Divisions sector, entirely the British forward zone and buffer battle zones, this was the ground we were prepared to give, our line was meant to buckle provided it did not break, by offering Prince Rupprecht the prize of Amiens Railhead (not his objective) we were able to split his army from the crown princes forces to the north that were being held by Julian Byngs Third Army, Goughs Fifth Army to the south were able to continue their retreat back to Villers Brett where with the use of fresh Australian Divisions and our own 58th London Division halt any further advance.
I gave a presentation on the March offensives to the Royal United Services Institute in Whitehall a couple of years ago and we had a really interesting debate about whether the fog on the day helped or hindered the advance.
I am keen for a Charlton Life tour to visit the battlefields once I have completed the memorial project, would love you to come along and we could no doubt chat for hours over our own interpretations of events during the Great War. What you see is what you get with me, I don't want to get dragged into a he said/she said debate and forums are easy places for that to evolve. So look out for the tour and come along, I hope we can tie in a Racing club Lens or Lille game whilst we are there.
It might interest you to know how much the British value German military thinking, when I was an instructor at Sandhurst in late 1980's we had German veteran officers of WWII still on the historical staff and even today 4 out of the 8 members of the Lecturing department are Germans.
my great granddad got the military cross at Ypres I really want to get out there and just pay my respects to those that fell since doing the research I find what they done just totally inspiring but unbelievable
I'm up for this too. Maybe should start a separate thread on it.
BFR playing the all fountain of knowledge role once again
One of the most emotional/fascinating days for me.
Time conspired against us to get to the Menin Gate, but we got to Tyne Cot where the school held a short wreath laying ceremony at the grave of an unknown soldier.
One of the lads caught glimpse of his surname and initials on the memorial list at the back of the cemetery. It reduced him to tears, I suspect a combination of what he had seen throughout the day bring home the futility of conflict. I've said this on Facebook but I think every teenager should be taken to the area to ram it home what happened almost 100 years ago.
If you don't mind I'll post a few pics up later if that's ok?
@SE7toSG3 - where do I sign up?
No one from our family had ever been to his grave. In fact they didn't even seem to know where it was and, as was common at that time, they didn't really talk about him.
However following much research by myself and my wife, his grave was located and in 2004 we became the first of his family to place flowers at the headstone.
It was a humbling experience, but i felt a sense of honour due to 'finding him'
His war was to be 'the war to end all wars' How sad that has been proven wrong, so many times since.
In Flanders fields
SE7toSE3 have you ever heard of the Durand group who uncover underground WWI tunnels? My dad is involved with them
My great uncle...anyone visited this site? Must get there myself one day only found out about him last year after a family mystery unfolded.
And an old boy from my school in Hartlebury
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:VCEdwardFelixBaxterGrave.jpg
This was one of the highlights of the ride I did in 2013 - chills down my spine (and not because I didn't pack a warm jersey)
Remembering my late Grandad, who was wounded in the Battle of the Somme, 3 July 1916 when very many of his young friends and colleagues in the Royal North West Kents were killed.
Why do you grieve Old Man,for those friends you laid to rest?
Why do your eyes still gleam Old Man, when you hear the bugles blow?
Tell me, why do you cry old man for those days so long ago?
I'll tell you why I march with medals on my chest.
I'll tell you why I grieve young man those I laid to rest.
Through misty fields of gossamer silk come visions of distant times,
When boys of tender age marched forth to distant times.
We buried them in a blanket shroud, their young flesh scorched and blackened,
A communal grave, newly gouged in bloodstained gorse and bracken.
And you ask me why I march young man - I march to remind you all
That for those apple-blossomed youths,
You'd never have known freedom at all.
Who are these men who march so proud,
Who quietly weep, eyes closed, head bowed?
These are the men who once were boys,
Who missed out on youth and all it's joys.
Who are these men with aged faces,
Who silently count the empty spaces?
These are the men who gave their all,
Who fought for their country for freedom for all.
Who are these men with sorrowful look
Who can still remember the lives that were took?
These are the men who saw young men die,
The price of peace is always high.
Who are these men who in the midst of pain,
Whispered comfort to those they would not see again?
These are the men whose hands held tomorrow,
Who brought back our future with blood tears and sorrow.
Who are these men who promise to keep
Alive in their hearts the ones God holds asleep?
These are the men to whom I promise again:
'Veterans',my friends-I will remember them !.
(Written by: an 'unknown'-12 year old girl-1966.)
Didn't know this one until my son bought it home from.a lesson this year
'This, I fear, may be the end of what I consider a noble and glorious history of as fine and gallant son as was ever given to a father and mother – a career but for your sound judgement & kindly nature might never have been & for which I hope you will feel proud and gratified.'
Last letter home of Captain Arthur Kilby Victoria Cross, MC, Twice Mentioned in Despatches 2/South Staffordshire Regiment
Whilst he was killed at Loos not the Somme his letter sums up that generation and today of all days we should remember them. Lest we forget