Slater makes the point that Palarse's revenue in 2011/12 was 25 per cent higher than CAFC's in 2012/13 (you can't make a proper overall comparison with us in 2011/12, because we were in League One).
Palace's turnover jumped to £15,022,059 from £12,706,503 in 2011/12 - with the club citing the successful Carling Cup run to the semi-finals as the main reason. If so we might want to look at that as an exceptional event, although you'd think their 2012/13 revenue was fairly buoyant too.
Charlton's revenue in 2012/13 was £11.8m, although a small allowance should be made for the fact we were still charging League One season ticket prices.
What interests me from researching the data (although Slater doesn't mention it), is that Charlton's (League One) match receipts in 2011/12 were comparable (within £1m) or better than three quarters of Championship clubs - including Palace - despite many fewer away fans than in the second tier.
One area in which we do very, very badly is merchandising, so for example we appear to have got £150k profit from Just Sports last year as per VOTV, whereas many Championship clubs are well into seven figures in income.
It's a similar story in other commercial areas, although the data is difficult to isolate.
I don't say, by the way, that this is down to incompetence, there are other explanations, and also I would say that tickets out-performed what might be expected, but it does suggest to me that we're not going to address the club's ability to compete significantly by focusing on selling more tickets, even though it has knock-on benefits for other income.
I believe this has long been our problem. Our development has always been (or appeared to have been) focussed on matchday tickets. Kids for a quid, football for a fiver but not enough focus on the 'matchday experience'. When we have capacity crowds where were the extra shop staff outside the club shop giving out vouchers to entice people inside? Where were the additonal staff inside the shop to ensure that the queue wasn't so long that people gave up and left? Where were the extra staff selling food and drink inside the building to make sure that everyone got served at half time? Where was the pitch entertainment to make sure families got the best value for their ticket and kids didn't get bored? Where were the promos upselling STHs to meals in the lounge and post seats for the match (which would also free up their seat to resell)? All these things are really important if we want to get more money in, and more importantly, turn occasional fans in the STHs. Alot of these things could be happening every week but the focus is on simply getting bodies through the turnstiles.
There may be some truth in that, although if you mean pre-match entertainment etc then there was some effort in that direction at all the Football for a Fiver games and especially against Hartlepool, which was also discounted. Rightly or wrongly, the club's structure delivered a focus on selling extra tickets - the club development team - and we had no jurisdiction or authority to deal with "the matchday experience", which fell into other remits.
I'm sure that if you put that to relevant people they would say that the constraints of the infrastucture, i.e. size of the shop, number and capacity of refreshment outlets, safety certificate restrictions re queues were all limiting factors, but it does got back to the fact that marginal ticket revenue more or less flows straight through to the bottom line, whereas extra spend in other areas is significantly offset by additional cost of sale.
The fact that a good experience encourages a repeat ticket sale I well understand, but with the budgets in League One it may have been tough for managers to address.
This is one of the things that we could take from the USA perhaps? Sellers walking around the stands selling drinks or sweets etc to customers in their seats?
I always find the club shop to be a strange bag of onions. nowhere near big enough for the potential of matchdays, but not really viable any other day of the week. The last thing I want to do on a matchday is queue up for 10 mins to get in, hussle & bussle around everyone like a last minute closing down sale and if I find something I wish to buy, spend a further 20 mins queueing up to pay for it. I know the alternative is to simply shop online, but I'm a bit old fashioned that I like to see what I'm buying, check out the quality and (if a clothing item) try it on.
As I don't go to away games these days, I can't compare our shop to other clubs of a similar size. Is it about average? maybe someone here can answer that?
Sorry if this is taking it a bit off topic..................
They sell bags of onions? Must rememeber that next time i'm looking to rustle up a frittata.
I always find the club shop to be a strange bag of onions. nowhere near big enough for the potential of matchdays, but not really viable any other day of the week. The last thing I want to do on a matchday is queue up for 10 mins to get in, hussle & bussle around everyone like a last minute closing down sale and if I find something I wish to buy, spend a further 20 mins queueing up to pay for it. I know the alternative is to simply shop online, but I'm a bit old fashioned that I like to see what I'm buying, check out the quality and (if a clothing item) try it on.
As I don't go to away games these days, I can't compare our shop to other clubs of a similar size. Is it about average? maybe someone here can answer that?
Sorry if this is taking it a bit off topic..................
From memory, most other clubs (or our size) have larger shops, normally built into a stand, especially with new build grounds. Our shop is a slightly funny shape as well (though miles better than the old one on that site!)
I don't have mine to hand because at £5 and with half of it printed upside down I limited myself to one purchase per Grumpy group. I only use it to rest my betting slip on anyway as the editorial is so banal but I do remember the Slater column.
My take on the column was that Mr Slater was arguing the reason we hadn't signed new players was the new Financial Fair Play rules which limits transfers and player registrations based on turnover. I think he also said that there would be a maximum loss of £5 million allowed before sanctions would apply.
He then went on to point out that other teams have bigger revenue than we do and that this was all part of a sensible management master-plan implying that he was in complete control of the situation.
My question was, what exactly are those financial fair play rules and is it the real reason we still have a rubbish midfield?
Out of interest why did the club shop in Bexleyheath get closed? Did it not make any money? You'd think a shop in Bexleyheath or Bluewater would be the way to go as many Charlton supporters never go into Charlton other than on matchdays.
I always find the club shop to be a strange bag of onions. nowhere near big enough for the potential of matchdays, but not really viable any other day of the week. The last thing I want to do on a matchday is queue up for 10 mins to get in, hussle & bussle around everyone like a last minute closing down sale and if I find something I wish to buy, spend a further 20 mins queueing up to pay for it. I know the alternative is to simply shop online, but I'm a bit old fashioned that I like to see what I'm buying, check out the quality and (if a clothing item) try it on.
As I don't go to away games these days, I can't compare our shop to other clubs of a similar size. Is it about average? maybe someone here can answer that?
Sorry if this is taking it a bit off topic..................
Our shop is very small compared to a lot of clubs, the range is not fantastic either.
Bournemouth have a shop at least twice the size of ours. They took 27k for the Real Madrid game, pretty much equates to selling 700 shirts, buggered if we take anywhere near that!
On the shop the club doesn't have to do anything except invoice the deal - the only meaningful comparison can be with profit on merchamdising at other clubs...does outsourcing work? On matchday experience some people are missing the point! it has to be about getting new fans to return and occasional fans to come more often. The gate money IS critical as it makes up 1/3 of the money coming into the club... the rest comes from TV and loans from the owners... So a few wins on the pitch and some clear thinking on promoting matches / improving match day and perhaps the annual deficit might shrink and some Turks or Swedes or someone else will put in an acceptable offer?
Well I for one think that Slater is genuinely offering us some education by presenting the Palace figures, and certainly I, and the Trust boys, will want to chew on them. Any sensible business wants to benchmark itself against other businesses in order to workk out if it is doing everything it can to optimise revenue and profit. Of course its important to pick a comparable business and, up until the Play off disaster, Palace has been the best benchmark. The figures are a bit of a shock to me because I was under the complacent assumption that we were doing better than Palace in all areas.
There is a benchmark. The key question then is, what were Palace doing better than us (other than a Cup run) and what can we learn from that?
This Perhaps CAFC will try a cup run this season - certainly the Trust would be in favour! Benchmarking the club against both competitors and potential is a way forwards... Winning games in league and cup fairly key so perhaps the club need to weigh up the opportunity cost of not signing players?
I don't see a critique of the clubs commercial performance anywhere in terms of valid comparisons and a cohesive strategy to improve revenue to meet potential and support the footballing side... perhaps this is an area that the Trust might help address?
How much does the club make on the sale of a pint? Cant be much as they seem to have to interest in serving people in good time. Even the service in Bartrams is shocking.
We can't even sell bloody shirts with the ex head of umbro on the payroll.
Can someone please tell me PROTHERO what is he good for ???
To be fair I think it was the previous management outsourced the shop and VotV appears to suggest that contribution to bottom line is up... biggest concern has to be the queues at the bars - poor service/experience and lost revenue rolled into one
We can't even sell bloody shirts with the ex head of umbro on the payroll.
Can someone please tell me PROTHERO what is he good for ???
To be fair I think it was the previous management that outsourced the shop
Well if that is the case then you can see why they got shot of kavanagh. Would still expect someone with protheros credentials to get people parting with their well earned. But deep down I really don't think they care.The whole Prothero thing astounds me though. One of his main jobs is player recruitment. We've signed hardly anyone since he arrived. He has a background in pulling the strings in one of the biggest football kit manufacturers in the country. We've sold hardly any. Has his contract been renewed?
On the shop the club doesn't have to do anything except invoice the deal - the only meaningful comparison can be with profit on merchamdising at other clubs...does outsourcing work? On matchday experience some people are missing the point! it has to be about getting new fans to return and occasional fans to come more often. The gate money IS critical as it makes up 1/3 of the money coming into the club... the rest comes from TV and loans from the owners... So a few wins on the pitch and some clear thinking on promoting matches / improving match day and perhaps the annual deficit might shrink and some Turks or Swedes or someone else will put in an acceptable offer?
Yes, the gate money is critical, but my point is that we have been over many years exceptionally good at maximising it from a relatively modest base of support. There may be more chance of increasing revenue streams in areas where the club traditionally underperforms than where it already does very well. But we still need to do what we've been doing well.
In terms of retail, a payment of £150,000 would be based on sales of £600,000, so while I take the point it's the bottom line that counts the fundamental problem is that we don't sell enough merchandise and certainly we will sell much less than clubs with comparable crowds.
I don't have mine to hand because at £5 and with half of it printed upside down I limited myself to one purchase per Grumpy group. I only use it to rest my betting slip on anyway as the editorial is so banal but I do remember the Slater column.
My take on the column was that Mr Slater was arguing the reason we hadn't signed new players was the new Financial Fair Play rules which limits transfers and player registrations based on turnover. I think he also said that there would be a maximum loss of £5 million allowed before sanctions would apply.
He then went on to point out that other teams have bigger revenue than we do and that this was all part of a sensible management master-plan implying that he was in complete control of the situation.
My question was, what exactly are those financial fair play rules and is it the real reason we still have a rubbish midfield?
Whereas elsewhere the club is arguing that it is well placed to comply with the FFP rules, which it might be, providing the owners are prepared to fund the club via equity instead of just loans.
The club can have an FFP loss of £8m this season - the actual figure in 2012/3 was expected to be £4.3m - but it's only allowed £3m of that in loans, so a minimum £1.3m would have to be equity. The figure of £5m is for 2015/6, which realistically I don't think Mr Slater needs to worry about.
Not sure if this has been posted on here before but BDO , the accountants not the darts people, have just published the results of its annual survey of football FDs.
Not sure if this has been posted on here before but BDO , the accountants not the darts people, have just published the results of its annual survey of football FDs.
The most troubled leagues are FLC and FL2, where respectively 88% and 76% of respondents expect to make a loss. (n.b : considerably more Champ than League One clubs expect to make a loss!)
Although only 17% of respondents’ current owners are considering a full or partial exit, this is mostly concentrated in the FL1 (36%) and FLC (28%) clubs.
Excellent tool to put our situation in better context
On the shop the club doesn't have to do anything except invoice the deal - the only meaningful comparison can be with profit on merchamdising at other clubs...does outsourcing work? On matchday experience some people are missing the point! it has to be about getting new fans to return and occasional fans to come more often. The gate money IS critical as it makes up 1/3 of the money coming into the club... the rest comes from TV and loans from the owners... So a few wins on the pitch and some clear thinking on promoting matches / improving match day and perhaps the annual deficit might shrink and some Turks or Swedes or someone else will put in an acceptable offer?
Yes, the gate money is critical, but my point is that we have been over many years exceptionally good at maximising it from a relatively modest base of support. There may be more chance of increasing revenue streams in areas where the club traditionally underperforms than where it already does very well. But we still need to do what we've been doing well.
In terms of retail, a payment of £150,000 would be based on sales of £600,000, so while I take the point it's the bottom line that counts the fundamental problem is that we don't sell enough merchandise and certainly we will sell much less than clubs with comparable crowds.
In the 90s the club was exceptionally good at increasing the gates year on year irrespective of performance on the pitch... and playing in the Premier League helped expand and sell out the ground - although many smaller clubs fail to do that... the point is that after a few years of decline it would be good to see gates going up again.
To me the reason why CAFC fans buy less merchandise is an academic study which might be interesting but has no commercial value as the shop is outsourced. But performance on the pitch and service / quality at bars and catering should provide revenue AND assist in pushing gates up.
Not sure if this has been posted on here before but BDO , the accountants not the darts people, have just published the results of its annual survey of football FDs.
This Perhaps CAFC will try a cup run this season - certainly the Trust would be in favour! Benchmarking the club against both competitors and potential is a way forwards... Winning games in league and cup fairly key so perhaps the club need to weigh up the opportunity cost of not signing players?
I don't see a critique of the clubs commercial performance anywhere in terms of valid comparisons and a cohesive strategy to improve revenue to meet potential and support the footballing side... perhaps this is an area that the Trust might help address?
Firstly, thanks, ever so much, for pointing this out. If only we'd known, say, twenty years ago, that the opportunity cost of not signing players was that we'd win fewer games and this would, potentially, mean fewer cup runs and, therefore, less income! This alone is justification for the Supporters' Trust running the club!
Secondly, maybe you could enlighten us as to how the Trust is going to come up with a 'cohesive strategy to improve revenue to meet potential and support the footballing side'?
I'm, really, really, sorry if it looks like I'm having a pop at you, or the Trust, SR but sometimes the things you come out with frighten the life out of me!
Bexleyheath was running at a loss, probably not worth considering outside of the Premier League to be fair. I had to chuckle when someone mentioned the smaller amount of profit on the peripherals...surely if your skint, any profit would be appreciated? Just a thought.
This Perhaps CAFC will try a cup run this season - certainly the Trust would be in favour! Benchmarking the club against both competitors and potential is a way forwards... Winning games in league and cup fairly key so perhaps the club need to weigh up the opportunity cost of not signing players?
I don't see a critique of the clubs commercial performance anywhere in terms of valid comparisons and a cohesive strategy to improve revenue to meet potential and support the footballing side... perhaps this is an area that the Trust might help address?
Firstly, thanks, ever so much, for pointing this out. If only we'd known, say, twenty years ago, that the opportunity cost of not signing players was that we'd win fewer games and this would, potentially, mean fewer cup runs and, therefore, less income! This alone is justification for the Supporters' Trust running the club!
Secondly, maybe you could enlighten us as to how the Trust is going to come up with a 'cohesive strategy to improve revenue to meet potential and support the footballing side'?
I'm, really, really, sorry if it looks like I'm having a pop at you, or the Trust, SR but sometimes the things you come out with frighten the life out of me!
glad I could help ... best keep things simple sometimes...winning games helps... Incidentally CAFC did know that 20 years ago which is why so many clubs copy what we did at that time... by the way its a game of 90 minutes with two halves if that helps?
Too much irony perhaps so to be straight forward: any club thinking it can sit back may be in for a rude awakening. Improving the squad is a continuous activity and while some think it might be about owners paying for the fans dreams perhaps it is the reverse which is true... unless both sides have an understanding of where it is all going
Comments
I don't have mine to hand because at £5 and with half of it printed upside down I limited myself to one purchase per Grumpy group. I only use it to rest my betting slip on anyway as the editorial is so banal but I do remember the Slater column.
My take on the column was that Mr Slater was arguing the reason we hadn't signed new players was the new Financial Fair Play rules which limits transfers and player registrations based on turnover. I think he also said that there would be a maximum loss of £5 million allowed before sanctions would apply.
He then went on to point out that other teams have bigger revenue than we do and that this was all part of a sensible management master-plan implying that he was in complete control of the situation.
My question was, what exactly are those financial fair play rules and is it the real reason we still have a rubbish midfield?
Bournemouth have a shop at least twice the size of ours. They took 27k for the Real Madrid game, pretty much equates to selling 700 shirts, buggered if we take anywhere near that!
On matchday experience some people are missing the point! it has to be about getting new fans to return and occasional fans to come more often.
The gate money IS critical as it makes up 1/3 of the money coming into the club... the rest comes from TV and loans from the owners...
So a few wins on the pitch and some clear thinking on promoting matches / improving match day and perhaps the annual deficit might shrink and some Turks or Swedes or someone else will put in an acceptable offer?
Perhaps CAFC will try a cup run this season - certainly the Trust would be in favour!
Benchmarking the club against both competitors and potential is a way forwards...
Winning games in league and cup fairly key so perhaps the club need to weigh up the opportunity cost of not signing players?
I don't see a critique of the clubs commercial performance anywhere in terms of valid comparisons and a cohesive strategy to improve revenue to meet potential and support the footballing side... perhaps this is an area that the Trust might help address?
Can someone please tell me
PROTHERO what is he good for ???
But deep down I really don't think they care.The whole Prothero thing astounds me though. One of his main jobs is player recruitment. We've signed hardly anyone since he arrived.
He has a background in pulling the strings in one of the biggest football kit manufacturers in the country. We've sold hardly any. Has his contract been renewed?
In terms of retail, a payment of £150,000 would be based on sales of £600,000, so while I take the point it's the bottom line that counts the fundamental problem is that we don't sell enough merchandise and certainly we will sell much less than clubs with comparable crowds.
The club can have an FFP loss of £8m this season - the actual figure in 2012/3 was expected to be £4.3m - but it's only allowed £3m of that in loans, so a minimum £1.3m would have to be equity. The figure of £5m is for 2015/6, which realistically I don't think Mr Slater needs to worry about.
Interesting stuff.
http://static.bdo.uk.com/assets/documents/2013/08/BDO_football_report_2013_13_08_13.pdf
Quick look shows evidence of everyone outside the FAPL trying to rein in the spending
I'm sure the Trust crew will find it very useful
:-)
It is really interesting...
The most troubled leagues are FLC and FL2, where respectively 88% and 76% of respondents expect to make a loss. (n.b : considerably more Champ than League One clubs expect to make a loss!)
Although only 17% of respondents’ current owners are considering a full or partial exit, this is mostly concentrated in the FL1 (36%) and FLC (28%) clubs.
Excellent tool to put our situation in better context
To me the reason why CAFC fans buy less merchandise is an academic study which might be interesting but has no commercial value as the shop is outsourced. But performance on the pitch and service / quality at bars and catering should provide revenue AND assist in pushing gates up.
;-)
Secondly, maybe you could enlighten us as to how the Trust is going to come up with a 'cohesive strategy to improve revenue to meet potential and support the footballing side'?
I'm, really, really, sorry if it looks like I'm having a pop at you, or the Trust, SR but sometimes the things you come out with frighten the life out of me!
Incidentally CAFC did know that 20 years ago which is why so many clubs copy what we did at that time...
by the way its a game of 90 minutes with two halves if that helps?
Too much irony perhaps so to be straight forward: any club thinking it can sit back may be in for a rude awakening. Improving the squad is a continuous activity and while some think it might be about owners paying for the fans dreams perhaps it is the reverse which is true... unless both sides have an understanding of where it is all going