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Utility and rail companies

After Ed Milliband announced what he was going to do to curb the excesses of these companies, the press seem to be saying that they have not been ripping us off. I thought it was an aknowledged fact that they were before this week! What do people think - should we have been thanking them?
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Comments

  • There's no way on God's green Earth that Southern are NOT ripping me off.

    No way.
  • Thanking them for making record profits at our expense while complaining about costs? Not really.
  • Everyone and his dog knows the energy companies are ripping us off. Everyone except Ofgem that is. Milliband is insane if he thinks this will work and punters are insane if they think they'll be any better off with it. All that will happen is that companies will hike their prices up massively before the freeze and then again afterwards.
  • Rizzo said:

    Everyone and his dog knows the energy companies are ripping us off. Everyone except Ofgem that is. Milliband is insane if he thinks this will work and punters are insane if they think they'll be any better off with it. All that will happen is that companies will hike their prices up massively before the freeze and then again afterwards.

    But isn't that missing the point - isn't the price freeze period supposed to be in place whilst the Government sorts out the industry! So the policy is more about changing things to provide a better deal for consumers long term than saving them money over 20 months!
  • Energy companies are definitely ripping us off and should be penalised but if you force rail companies to drop prices they will still make the same profits but staff and and the safety of passengers will suffer greatly.
  • edited September 2013
    Almost had a punch-up with tory boy at work about this. The energy companies are ripping us off - his argument is that 'the market' dictates what prices people will pay. A spurious argument if ever I heard one, since they make obscene profits quarter on quarter and set the prices between themselves in cosy little agreements & having been doing for years.

    There's even less argument for 'the market' where the rail companies are concerned - since last I looked, it wasn't possible to travel on a different track right next to the one that is situated between where you need to get to and where you currently are because - surprise, surprise - those tracks don't exist. Rail privatisation is the biggest con job ever pulled on the people of the UK.

    This is the problem in a nutsehll - socialism doesn't work because of greed - capitalism doesn't work for the same reason.
  • Rizzo said:

    Everyone and his dog knows the energy companies are ripping us off. Everyone except Ofgem that is. Milliband is insane if he thinks this will work and punters are insane if they think they'll be any better off with it. All that will happen is that companies will hike their prices up massively before the freeze and then again afterwards.

    But isn't that missing the point - isn't the price freeze period supposed to be in place whilst the Government sorts out the industry! So the policy is more about changing things to provide a better deal for consumers long term than saving them money over 20 months!
    I wouldn't hold my breath over labour (or the tories) sorting it out anytime soon. Short of renationalising the utilities there is simply no way it would ever work.

  • But why did you think they had been ripping us off? What did you think Ofgem had been doing all this time? In case you and the buffoon Milliband don't know it's this: "Ofgem, as the regulator, sets price controls for the companies that operate Britain’s gas and electricity networks." They pass on those rigidly controlled tariffs to the energy suppliers who make a small turn on the deal.

    Here's a few comparisons:
    Centrica (owners of the British Gas franchise) Turnover £23.9bn, Profit £1.4bn. A profit ratio of about 5.85%
    Tesco Turnover £72.4bn, Profit £3.5bn About 4.8% (But a poor year for them.)
    VW Turnover Euro 192bn Profit Euro 25.4 bn. About 13%.

    So, if Red Ed wanted to do actually do something useful, he'd be thinking about freezing the price of new German cars not gas and electricity prices!

    Let's assume Milliband The Stupid does become Prime Minister and freezes prices as promised. First. it will probably not apply to prices charged to businesses and government (both local and central) whose power costs will increase hugely. Those extra costs will be passed on to, yes that's right, consumers, who will quickly see price inflation and extra taxation eating into any savings they might make. (And heavy power users, the car manufacturers, etc might consider shifting their production elsewhere.)
    Second, the power companies' (currently not unreasonable) profit levels will drop (possibly disappear) and dividends to shareholders will drop. In the main, shareholders are fund mangers, so we'll all see our pension pots reduce in value.
    Third, Centrica (and the others) will shed some staff who will not therefore be paying tax and the Govt, will lose around a £1bn a year in corporartion tax from Centrica alone.
    It is, I suppose also possible that some companies will say stuff this and refuse to do business in the UK any more. Don't forget that four of the big six players are foreign companies. EDF is French, Npower and Eon are German and Scottish Power is Spanish.

    Edward's scheme has disaster written all over it.
  • edited September 2013
    anyone who believes ANYthing in ANY party 'manifesto' has not learnt from experience or is a first time voter
  • Apple BTW pulls in close to 30% profit ratio on t/over. But we're all quite happy paying their prices presumably? It makes me laugh that people quite cheerfully spend the equivalent of their annual fuel bill on that essential item, a mobile phone, while wingeing about gas prices. Where's the logic in that?
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  • cafcfan said:

    Apple BTW pulls in close to 30% profit ratio on t/over. But we're all quite happy paying their prices presumably? It makes me laugh that people quite cheerfully spend the equivalent of their annual fuel bill on that essential item, a mobile phone, while wingeing about gas prices. Where's the logic in that?

    I think the main point is that you can choose not to buy an iphone but you can't realistically choose not to use energy.

  • cafcfan said:

    Apple BTW pulls in close to 30% profit ratio on t/over. But we're all quite happy paying their prices presumably? It makes me laugh that people quite cheerfully spend the equivalent of their annual fuel bill on that essential item, a mobile phone, while wingeing about gas prices. Where's the logic in that?

    Its simple, you have the choice to own a phone. You have the choice to buy in a supermarket, you have the choice to buy a car.

    You need gas and electric, and people making huge sums of money off people's needs (in my view) is wrong. Plus it's basically an Oligopoly which means that the public are not receiving a fair price, which they would under a more competitive market.
  • Rizzo said:

    cafcfan said:

    Apple BTW pulls in close to 30% profit ratio on t/over. But we're all quite happy paying their prices presumably? It makes me laugh that people quite cheerfully spend the equivalent of their annual fuel bill on that essential item, a mobile phone, while wingeing about gas prices. Where's the logic in that?

    I think the main point is that you can choose not to buy an iphone but you can't realistically choose not to use energy.

    That as may be but how many of the people who posted above, adamant that energy companies are ripping us off, aren't paying more to their mobile provider or Sky than they do to their gas company?
  • cafcfan said:

    Rizzo said:

    cafcfan said:

    Apple BTW pulls in close to 30% profit ratio on t/over. But we're all quite happy paying their prices presumably? It makes me laugh that people quite cheerfully spend the equivalent of their annual fuel bill on that essential item, a mobile phone, while wingeing about gas prices. Where's the logic in that?

    I think the main point is that you can choose not to buy an iphone but you can't realistically choose not to use energy.

    That as may be but how many of the people who posted above, adamant that energy companies are ripping us off, aren't paying more to their mobile provider or Sky than they do to their gas company?
    And what about the poorest in the country? The people that can't afford gas bills? Are they told: 'People pay more for sky so our bills to you are fine'?
  • cafcfan said:

    Rizzo said:

    cafcfan said:

    Apple BTW pulls in close to 30% profit ratio on t/over. But we're all quite happy paying their prices presumably? It makes me laugh that people quite cheerfully spend the equivalent of their annual fuel bill on that essential item, a mobile phone, while wingeing about gas prices. Where's the logic in that?

    I think the main point is that you can choose not to buy an iphone but you can't realistically choose not to use energy.

    That as may be but how many of the people who posted above, adamant that energy companies are ripping us off, aren't paying more to their mobile provider or Sky than they do to their gas company?
    And what about the poorest in the country? The people that can't afford gas bills? Are they told: 'People pay more for sky so our bills to you are fine'?
    the elderly for a start
  • cafcfan said:

    Rizzo said:

    cafcfan said:

    Apple BTW pulls in close to 30% profit ratio on t/over. But we're all quite happy paying their prices presumably? It makes me laugh that people quite cheerfully spend the equivalent of their annual fuel bill on that essential item, a mobile phone, while wingeing about gas prices. Where's the logic in that?

    I think the main point is that you can choose not to buy an iphone but you can't realistically choose not to use energy.

    That as may be but how many of the people who posted above, adamant that energy companies are ripping us off, aren't paying more to their mobile provider or Sky than they do to their gas company?
    I don't really see that they're comparable though. An optional luxury item costing the same as or more than an essential commodity is hardly relevant.

  • cafcfan said:

    Rizzo said:

    cafcfan said:

    Apple BTW pulls in close to 30% profit ratio on t/over. But we're all quite happy paying their prices presumably? It makes me laugh that people quite cheerfully spend the equivalent of their annual fuel bill on that essential item, a mobile phone, while wingeing about gas prices. Where's the logic in that?

    I think the main point is that you can choose not to buy an iphone but you can't realistically choose not to use energy.

    That as may be but how many of the people who posted above, adamant that energy companies are ripping us off, aren't paying more to their mobile provider or Sky than they do to their gas company?
    Im not, Im still paying off last winter's heating bill. God knows how the elderly cope with their bills.
  • edited September 2013
    The economic arguments for freezing utility prices are somewhat flawed. The equilibrium price of the market will rise rapidly after the freeze to compensate for lost profits during that period. Labour have also failed to answer the question what happens if there is a sudden spike in wholesale energy prices? Given that the majority of our natural gas comes from the Middle East that proposition isn't that unlikely.

    However something needed to be done and at least Labour have been first to react. Ever increasing energy prices, well above inflation, are putting a massive strain on the cost of living. At the moment the government have no solution whatsoever and need to respond. My suggestion, scrapping the regulation on the industry that drive up prices and removing the taxes that depress their income, this will relieve energy costs in the short-term. In the long term the Competition Commission needs to break up the Oligopoly power of the Big 6 putting a stop to price-fixing in the industry, increasing competitiveness and subsequently driving down prices.
  • edited September 2013
    cafcfan said:

    But why did you think they had been ripping us off? What did you think Ofgem had been doing all this time? In case you and the buffoon Milliband don't know it's this: "Ofgem, as the regulator, sets price controls for the companies that operate Britain’s gas and electricity networks." They pass on those rigidly controlled tariffs to the energy suppliers who make a small turn on the deal.

    Here's a few comparisons:
    Centrica (owners of the British Gas franchise) Turnover £23.9bn, Profit £1.4bn. A profit ratio of about 5.85%
    Tesco Turnover £72.4bn, Profit £3.5bn About 4.8% (But a poor year for them.)
    VW Turnover Euro 192bn Profit Euro 25.4 bn. About 13%.

    So, if Red Ed wanted to do actually do something useful, he'd be thinking about freezing the price of new German cars not gas and electricity prices!

    Let's assume Milliband The Stupid does become Prime Minister and freezes prices as promised. First. it will probably not apply to prices charged to businesses and government (both local and central) whose power costs will increase hugely. Those extra costs will be passed on to, yes that's right, consumers, who will quickly see price inflation and extra taxation eating into any savings they might make. (And heavy power users, the car manufacturers, etc might consider shifting their production elsewhere.)
    Second, the power companies' (currently not unreasonable) profit levels will drop (possibly disappear) and dividends to shareholders will drop. In the main, shareholders are fund mangers, so we'll all see our pension pots reduce in value.
    Third, Centrica (and the others) will shed some staff who will not therefore be paying tax and the Govt, will lose around a £1bn a year in corporartion tax from Centrica alone.
    It is, I suppose also possible that some companies will say stuff this and refuse to do business in the UK any more. Don't forget that four of the big six players are foreign companies. EDF is French, Npower and Eon are German and Scottish Power is Spanish.

    Edward's scheme has disaster written all over it.

    But consumers can chose not to buy a VW or shop at Tesco. As stated by others, the energy market and rail market are flawed. There isn't true competition. How many energy firms have gone bust because of competition ?
    The utilities were sold off cheap and are a one way bet unless regulated. They are not the same as VW or Tesco .

    I run an SME and I can assure you we are at the mercy of market forces of competition unlike rail or utilities .

    Ironically, most large free marketeers don'twant to be exposed to the forces of competition.

  • edited September 2013
    cafcfan said:

    But why did you think they had been ripping us off? What did you think Ofgem had been doing all this time? In case you and the buffoon Milliband don't know it's this: "Ofgem, as the regulator, sets price controls for the companies that operate Britain’s gas and electricity networks." They pass on those rigidly controlled tariffs to the energy suppliers who make a small turn on the deal.

    The trouble is those " Rigidly controlled tariffs" and not rigid enough and you need a degree to understand them. Very few people have faith in Ofgem and understandably so.
    The fact of the matter is you can call Milliband all the silly names you like ( and he is a lousy Labour leader in my opinion ) , the people on the boards of these utility companies all went to the same public schools and socialise in the same circles as David Cameron and George Osbourne so they are NEVER going to crack down on their mates.
    Like it or leave it , if you do want these companies to be penalises for ripping us off it ain't going to happen under a Tory government or a Tory Coalition.
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  • Power and Rail, blah de blah de blah. I am in a general agreement here that nowt will get done by either party or political side pontificating at a party conference.

    The one that Ed slipped under the radar somewhat was lowering the voting age to 16, IMO much more worrying.
  • Curb_It said:

    cafcfan said:

    Rizzo said:

    cafcfan said:

    Apple BTW pulls in close to 30% profit ratio on t/over. But we're all quite happy paying their prices presumably? It makes me laugh that people quite cheerfully spend the equivalent of their annual fuel bill on that essential item, a mobile phone, while wingeing about gas prices. Where's the logic in that?

    I think the main point is that you can choose not to buy an iphone but you can't realistically choose not to use energy.

    That as may be but how many of the people who posted above, adamant that energy companies are ripping us off, aren't paying more to their mobile provider or Sky than they do to their gas company?
    Im not, Im still paying off last winter's heating bill. God knows how the elderly cope with their bills.
    Can't see the problem, we get winter fuel allowance.............oh hang on that's going to be withdrawn idc along with the freedom pass :-(
  • A price freeze could lead to serious issues for anyone that understands the first thing about commodity prices.

    Having said that the energy companies could trade in the futures and derivatives markets for basically enough energy to power the whole of the UK, which of course would come at a premium... Which would be paid by us...

    Energy companies have their margins of profit regulated (I am not claiming to be a sage on this subject by the way so feel free to correct me). Meaning that the reasons energy companies make record profits is because of high wholesale prices, as if say gas costs them 100p a unit and they can make 5% they get 105p (5p profit) but if it rises to 110 they get 5.5p profit.

    Added to this the fact that harsh winters etc add to the amount of fuel used and there you have record profits.

    That is of course if everything works correctly within the frame of regulation, which I would not say is a definite by any stretch ;)

    Either way Milliband is talking a big game about this cost of living crisis as he calls it, if he could do something about it (and I very much doubt he could) then it would be applauded.

  • There's even less argument for 'the market' where the rail companies are concerned - since last I looked, it wasn't possible to travel on a different track right next to the one that is situated between where you need to get to and where you currently are because - surprise, surprise - those tracks don't exist. Rail privatisation is the biggest con job ever pulled on the people of the UK.

    This is ridiculously true. One train company operates out of my home station. One. And they make millions in profit each week. When they screw up, they get fined. Who gets the fines? The government. What do I get? Late home.

    So I'm moving to the country...(I'm gonna eat a lot of peaches).
  • edited September 2013
    Hasn't Milliband put a caveat that if the market prices rose sufficiently, the freeze would be reviewed? So that particular argument from the energy companies is a weak one. And I think he is saying that the freeze is a reaction not a solution. The solution will be the changes that are made to the industry during the freeze - to benefit the customer - not the suppliers! I think he thinks the market is broken so wants to intervene.

    There are those that think interfering with a market - even if it is broken is sacrilege but what do you do if you think consumers are being ripped off – do you just leave things alone?

    As for the rail companies – the issue is different but equally worrying. They are acknowledged to be badly run and inefficient but make big profits all the same due to massive government subsidies and fare increases. The Government tries to cut the subsidies and they increase the fares so profits are maintained. It must be pretty hard not to make a profit if you are a rail company and I’m not sure what kind of free market they are operating in?
  • Miliband is clutching at any floating straw in an attempt to get the poor and simple minded to vote for his party and con his way into power .. land grabs for 'social' housing, free or subsidised pre school/childcare places, price freezes on utilities .. all father Christmas stuff .. the man is either a complete idiot or a lying charlatan .. it's doubtful that a complete idiot would ever get to lead even our beloved rump of a 'Labour' party, which leaves him as a lying charlatan
  • Let's not forget, Tony Blair said exactly the same 1996 and it never happened. That's just another typical promise to get votes.

    Not sure nationalising railways would be a good idea but something needs to be done. They are ridiculously bad at the moment (especially south eastern) They are never clean, the air conditioning is bad, the toilets never get maintained, the customer service is bad and they do small carriages when it's rush hour time which mean commuters can't sit down. Yet the price constantly increases and I have no idea why apart from greed.

    I think the HS2 is a very bad idea, it's bad for the Countryside and we have a good network around the UK so why on earth are we building a new railway line when the current ones can be upgraded.

  • Huskaris said:

    A price freeze could lead to serious issues for anyone that understands the first thing about commodity prices.

    Having said that the energy companies could trade in the futures and derivatives markets for basically enough energy to power the whole of the UK, which of course would come at a premium... Which would be paid by us...

    Energy companies have their margins of profit regulated (I am not claiming to be a sage on this subject by the way so feel free to correct me). Meaning that the reasons energy companies make record profits is because of high wholesale prices, as if say gas costs them 100p a unit and they can make 5% they get 105p (5p profit) but if it rises to 110 they get 5.5p profit.

    Added to this the fact that harsh winters etc add to the amount of fuel used and there you have record profits.

    That is of course if everything works correctly within the frame of regulation, which I would not say is a definite by any stretch ;)

    Either way Milliband is talking a big game about this cost of living crisis as he calls it, if he could do something about it (and I very much doubt he could) then it would be applauded.

    It won't happen, not when Labour support building useless wind turbines that affect the price we pay.
  • I am sure the foreign owned utility companies will find a EU law which prevents Mr Milliband putting this in place. Also remember as with petrol/diesel the goverment rakes in money from VAT levied on the increases. In the case of gas & electricty every £1 increase approx 5p goes to the goverment.
  • cafcfan said:

    Rizzo said:

    cafcfan said:

    Apple BTW pulls in close to 30% profit ratio on t/over. But we're all quite happy paying their prices presumably? It makes me laugh that people quite cheerfully spend the equivalent of their annual fuel bill on that essential item, a mobile phone, while wingeing about gas prices. Where's the logic in that?

    I think the main point is that you can choose not to buy an iphone but you can't realistically choose not to use energy.

    That as may be but how many of the people who posted above, adamant that energy companies are ripping us off, aren't paying more to their mobile provider or Sky than they do to their gas company?
    Another spurious argument, to back up an ill-thought out point. As people have posted above, we're not necessarily talking about people who can afford to spunk 700 quid on an iPhone, or 20 grand on a car. We're talking about essentials that people quite simply cannot live without - and plenty of those people will be unable to afford ANY of life's luxuries. It's called 'profiteering' - and it's illegal.
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