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Do something positive..help us Fill the Valley

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  • i will send you one Razil in the next hr or so
  • Trust you know what your talking about Airman but there must be some cost involved based on the club losing £14 on every £20 ticket like mine that is now available for £6.

    People make a lot of false assumptions about revenue - for example, the club doesn't get £20 from your ticket - it gets £16.67, net of VAT, as opposed to £4.17 from a fiver. So straight away the loss on your ticket is down to £12.50 (ignoring the donation).

    Then there's the fact that there's no reduction in U11 tickets (in fact they are dearer with the donation), while the loss on a £10 U18 ticket is only £4.17.

    Looking at the gates this season and results, I'd expect to sell about 2,000 standard priced home matchday tickets for Wigan and maybe 500 aways. Say the average net home ticket revenue is £15 and the average away £20 on standard prices, for argument's sake.

    That's £30k home revenue and £10k from aways. It means in round numbers you've got to sell 10,000 tickets at £5 gross to match the income you would have got. So, a gate of about 21,000 allowing for comps is breakeven.

    Then you've got extra staffing and marketing costs, but these will be more than offset by extra profit from ancillary activities, especially catering.

    Obviously if you actually sell 15,000 seats you've made a profit that you weren't ever going to make selling the game at standard price.
    A profit of $20k - enough to pay how much of our weekly wage bill?
  • Think carefully before you write on this.
    We could be in danger of scaring Barney and the rest of the trust bods off.I know time is precious for these fellas but they've seen something that could potentially damage something that we ALL love and have decided to give a lot of their time to it.
    IMO we are much better with them than without them.
  • I do not disagree Carly at all I think the Trust is extremely worth while and needed and that is why I think it is very important that it reaches all, in fact that it does all things for all people and that is going to be a very tricky thing to achieve

    I in no way mean to make people walk away from the trust just to take a step back and look at the last x months as a success but how can we make it better and how can we learn from things we are not happy with,

    from people I have spoken too they wish to watch how the trust board act and move the trust on in the near future before becoming a more active in their support and membership

    I think that this forum and others out there should not be judged but viewed as a vehicle to convey a message, maybe it was tongue in cheek

    "I think it says a lot about this site and where CAFC is with its fanbase that this thread has just a handful of views!"

    but this site and this fanbase is the part of the trust that's not really going to endear yourselves to your target audience is it
  • Think carefully before you write on this.
    We could be in danger of scaring Barney and the rest of the trust bods off.I know time is precious for these fellas but they've seen something that could potentially damage something that we ALL love and have decided to give a lot of their time to it.
    IMO we are much better with them than without them.

    Very well said Carly.

    I'm not part of their team, but I have seen what work they do. Some of them work their nuts off. Really. e-mails flying around at 2 a.m about the next mailer or the next article, and these are people with day jobs and families. They're going to make mistakes sometimes. They are human, and they need to feel they are getting somewhere. "Somewhere" being that they can prove to this club management and the next that they are big enough to be representative, and collaborative enough to be trusted; while at the same time proving to the fanbase that they are not in anyone's pocket. Bloody difficult task.
  • NLA - as it happens we have drafted a survey, initially for Trust members to tell us what is good or bad about message, activity and presentation...so we get full on feedback to get a steer for how to move onwards and upwards.

    Something is going right because the numbers keep going up but we have a long way to go

    Without going into detail the fans want the Trust to engage with the club which we have been working on for more than 6 months...baby steps but hopefully right direction?
  • I am very glad you do that SR and its the right thing to do, but you need to engage your non members, i have PM'd razil and informed him of my feelings and that of some who don't post here or really use CL for anything other than a heads up on signings and to see if we still exist

    its not personal its an opinion and one that aint just mine
  • The Trust is building from a standing start in what increasingly appear to be uncertain times for the ethos of our beloved Club.

    To be totally honest I'd be more worried if there WASN'T a feeling of overkill!

    That said I know NLA writes what he writes with honourable motives.



  • I'm not part of their team, but I have seen what work they do.

    You say that but on 6 September the Trust website announced the news that you had been co-opted onto the Trust board.
  • Thank you Len

    I just want us to learn from the past and not fall by the wayside information now on what has been achieved will mean more members in the future actions speak louder and all that

    I know that hard work is done and will continue to be done
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  • I made a probably misplaced joke on the Sundays Headline Today thread but just to clarify the point of my post here - I find that the tabloid style sensationalism of the trust news letters and blog posts reduces credibility and "trust"worthiness somewhat - for example I was very concerned when I earlier saw the headline "Valley ACV Status Doubt?" in the Trust email. Clicking through to the story it turns out the headline didn't match the body at all - it was basically saying that we shouldn't take it for granted that the ACV would be approved and therefore sign up now if you haven't. The message was absolutely bang on and worth posting but the headline in relation to the story felt like I was reading the Sun.

    I support the trust, was an early member, and would help out if I could but regrettably my work and personal life gives me scant time to myself at the moment let alone to make a meaningful contribution. However I feel it should be a solid, trustworthy body that avoids sensationalism for hits and clicks and doesn't belittle those that don't join in.

    I have utmost respect for all of those contributing their time towards the trust but the current positioning is wrong in my opinion. "You're either with us or you're not a real fan" is how it seems to me, and I'm a paid up member.

    I also think that Razil should be addressing on feedback publicly. If the Trust is transparent and for all fans of the club why should we have private conversations about the running of it?

    Finally, I think it's dangerous to warn off criticism by saying 'think how much time the organisers are putting in". That's as may be but unfortunately they have chosen to be public faces for the trust and as such dealing with public criticism is as much of the job as accepting public praise when things go well, if not more so.

    I support the trust, I support the club, I don't support scare tactics... which is where it feels we are heading on occasions.
  • I think there’s some great points here regarding how/when/what we communicate and to be honest we’ve only been doing this for a year so we’re still figuring it all out – no one is born knowing how to run a supporters trust but slowly but surely we’re getting there. ACV has been a really steep learning curve teaching us what forms of communication works, and by and large it’s been pretty successful, our numbers have increased, we’ve raised our profile and most importantly we should (hopefully) be able to deliver something for Addicks which, whilst not perfect, is better than what we have right now. All of that has to be a success.

    So how do we make this new initiative a success ? How do we get 500 people motivated to hand out a couple of hundred leaflets in their neighborhood ?

    It’s my opinion that, if we make it easy for them, people want to help their club if they can. You can see that by the guys who turn up and help clean the Valley over the summer for no more than a ticket to a game (I’m not sure if that’s reward or punishment!). So I guess the two questions are;

    1. Is helping the club to fill the Valley something that you want your trust to do ? Is it something that you think should be done ?
    2. If the answers to the above are “yes” how would we go about getting you to help out ?
  • maybe that's how i should have posted it i apologise
  • edited September 2013
    Prague and Len are spot on (as usual). The Trust guys are doing a tremendous job but NLA's comments seem to me to be well-intentioned and constructive and criticism given in that spirit (admittedly and unfortunately all too rare) should surely be welcome. I'm sure it is.
  • Prague=Judas

    ;)


  • I'm not part of their team, but I have seen what work they do.

    You say that but on 6 September the Trust website announced the news that you had been co-opted onto the Trust board.
    Yes, but with some reluctance, because I don't -can't - do any of the hard grafting work that they do. Unless you suppose that I'm going to set up a Trust stall outside Viktoria Plzen's ground.

    However I can do one off things, like going down to Swansea next week when I am over, to meet their Trust guys and find out what lessons we can learn from them. It's kind of good manners for the Swansea guys to be able to check on the Trust website that I am pukka, and not just cadging a ticket to watch JonJo in the Europa League that night - which is exactly my plan :-)

  • I think he means though that his role is limited due to geography, indeed some of the board are less active than others
  • maybe that's how i should have posted it i apologise

    I thought what you posted was fair and balanced. It's valuable information for the Trust. Personally I don't feel you should apologize. Glad it set off an open conversation.

  • edited September 2013
    Oakster said:



    A profit of $20k - enough to pay how much of our weekly wage bill?

    So what? The point is that it's more than you'd get if you did nothing. The reality is that nothing the club does off the pitch is ever going to deliver capacity crowds at standard prices in the short or medium term, so you are limited to doing what you can. This is one tactic among several and others work in different ways. But in any event, I was answering the point that the offer loses money, not seeking to justify it only as a money-making exercise.
  • edited September 2013
    I can assure everyone I will take on board all feedback, if people want to continue leaving it I will take a look at the weekend, and try to address it.

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  • edited September 2013
    We need to engage members to see what we should change before renewals come up from December onwards...
    We have a network of Twitter, email, facebook which is always 5x the membership (no idea why!)...we will ask them but we already know that some don't open emails etc.
    So far it has been very soft sell as the over-riding belief is that if we get things right more will join as members and subscribers and the numbers who unsubscribe is tiny...

    The main barrier is that people simply havent heard of the Trust so we are running a stall on matchdays and reaching out...another few hundred fans every match at 20+ games a season all adds up...and keeps us grounded

    So yes, the message needs perfecting and perhaps comms experts will come out to help shoulder the responsibility as the Trust reaches further and further...bad headlines get no hits and headlines with Valley, Powell and Palace will get a lot and there is an integrity issue... occasionally

    But everyone means well and fans have a choice as to whether to join up or watch... and now they can participate too
  • edited September 2013
  • Oakster said:



    A profit of $20k - enough to pay how much of our weekly wage bill?

    So what? The point is that it's more than you'd get if you did nothing. The reality is that nothing the club does off the pitch is ever going to deliver capacity crowds at standard prices in the short or medium term, so you are limited to doing what you can. This is one tactic among several and others work in different ways. But in any event, I was answering the point that the offer loses money, not seeking to justify it only as a money-making exercise.
    Not a criticism AB, just a lazy observation about how difficult it must be to finance a football team at this level.....

  • boggzy said:

    Most of the mates I brought for Barnsley aren't interested in going again. Hardly surprising.. was dire and not that much better than last Saturday.

    There are still the usual two or three extra coming along for the social aspect as much as anything.

    Same. They don't come expecting Barcelonaesque passing but even as an avid fan, I find our style of football boring.
  • Non regulars aren't gonna turn up until the team do. Football is first & foremost (for the spectators) a form of entertainment. That igredient has been missing at home (for the most part) since we returned to the championship....................

    That's not a negative on what the trust are doing of course............
    Agree with both comments. And the one about a low ebb ATM.
  • Non regulars aren't gonna turn up until the team do. Football is first & foremost (for the spectators) a form of entertainment. That igredient has been missing at home (for the most part) since we returned to the championship....................

    That's not a negative on what the trust are doing of course............
    Agree with both comments. And the one about a low ebb ATM.
    So much for block quotes! The other comment I agreed with was the one abou low entertainment at the moment.
  • edited September 2013
    se9addick said:

    ...the question is "is it better for Addicks (and by that I mean people who are actual fans) to see a full as possible Valley?"

    There are many things that flow from that, the revenue to pay the bills, the introduction of Addicks lapsed and new to the stadium ... so do you think this is the sort of thing a supporters trust should be encouraging ?

    Just a quick update - looks like we have enough people so far to distribute 12,500 and these will be given to people at our stall on Tuesday...

    If anyone else wants to add their name to the list then please email secretary@castrust.org

    For more information castrust.org/2013/09/ordinary-fans-help-cafc-fill-valley/

  • But its a stupid loaded question se9 because of course the answer is never going to be no. It's like saying should our strikers score goals.

    It's not a stupid loaded question! On the contrary it is the shrewd distillation of the real issues after months of discussion plus negotiations with the club - what can the fans do to assist the club? And in turn leverage those efforts to gain some influence?

    But the question was why was the response so muted and that is probably because of two reasons. 1. There is nothing new here, the club has.been doing this game for years now and organising volunteers to target local areas, stations etc. You're just doing that for then now, and 2. There is a huge overload of Trust pushing messages on here, which is probably why the ones that are clearly tTrust ones see poor readership and have to be slyly bumped or provoked into debate by the 7-9 of you heavily involved.

    1. There is something new as posted higher up - this time a supporters Trust is getting involved and 2. The Trust does not blanket this site the way it used to when it was launched(!) less than 5% of the Trust site traffic comes from here now... This despite the fact that 60% of the 2,500 Trust members and subscribers say they use this site

    As for the game, it is not a new event anymore and history has shown that the novelty of seeing the ground full at kick off soon wears off when you find the atmosphere worse than normal, and half the people there not really into it. Ultimately it appears to have virtually no impact on increasing our crowds either in the short term following the promotion, or in the long term after if recent crowds are anything to go by. I have brought a number of non-fans to this game in recent years, not a single one has returned for a single game as a paying customer. For the past five years our club have been giving away tens of thousands of free tickets, yet the ratio of one of those going on to be a regular is minute.

    Of course there is promotional and marketing work that can be done, but while the offering on the pitch is on a bit of a lull, its effectiveness is going to be ten times more difficult, and people shouldnt be made to feel they don't care just because they don't answer every rallying call.

    The cynicism is there for all to see and it is sad - are we then saying that we do not want brand new fans because they are not that into is and haven't spent 40 years watching mainly 2nd tier football? But at least there is a general recognition that there is a need for promotional and marketing work... Again, distill all the arguments down on this thread and elsewhere and the question is:
    " Is the only way to market CAFC by buying more / better players and pushing up the leagues - is this the only way to fill the Valley OR can the club improve the matchday experience and marketing such that if the team finishes 9th-15th year in year out then the average gates can be improved?"
    If you believe the answer is the latter then hopefully people will support the Trusts initiative... by email, by comments and by activity...
  • Trust you know what your talking about Airman but there must be some cost involved based on the club losing £14 on every £20 ticket like mine that is now available for £6.

    People make a lot of false assumptions about revenue - for example, the club doesn't get £20 from your ticket - it gets £16.67, net of VAT, as opposed to £4.17 from a fiver. So straight away the loss on your ticket is down to £12.50 (ignoring the donation).

    Then there's the fact that there's no reduction in U11 tickets (in fact they are dearer with the donation), while the loss on a £10 U18 ticket is only £4.17.

    Looking at the gates this season and results, I'd expect to sell about 2,000 standard priced home matchday tickets for Wigan and maybe 500 aways. Say the average net home ticket revenue is £15 and the average away £20 on standard prices, for argument's sake.

    That's £30k home revenue and £10k from aways. It means in round numbers you've got to sell 10,000 tickets at £5 gross to match the income you would have got. So, a gate of about 21,000 allowing for comps is breakeven.

    Then you've got extra staffing and marketing costs, but these will be more than offset by extra profit from ancillary activities, especially catering.

    Obviously if you actually sell 15,000 seats you've made a profit that you weren't ever going to make selling the game at standard price.
    Thank you for that Airman. The numbers are fascinating. I had no idea we would only expect to sell 2000 full price tickets for a decent home game in the Championship OR that we need to sell 5 x more to generate exactly the same revenue at £5 per ticket. Presumably that means a lot of extra marketing effort to generate the same income on the assumption that some of these 10,000 might want to come back at full price the next week (or at some time in the future).

    I assume that if they all see a dreary 0-1 home defeat in heavy rain, contract food poisoning from the on site catering and get stuck in traffic in the way home the whole exercise is counter productive but there is nothing much you can do about that side of it.

    Guess I will just have to be brave and put up with those annoying Sky Chelsea fans for the afternoon in the hope that we win 6-3 in glorious sunshine and that Daddy steers clear of the dodgy meat pies and signs the whole family up for season tickets.
  • As someone who has been on the CAS Trust board since last December I'd just like to stress that we are a pretty resilient bunch and we welcome criticism and insightful comments about our activities and our tone. Yes, we might feel demotivated for a short while and we might even get grumpy, but we aren't precious and, on the whole, it is a great privilege and pleasure to have the chance to communicate and work with other CAFC supporters towards a common aim.
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