Sir Horace Lockwood Smith-Dorrien Commander BEF II Corps 1914. Issued a stopping blow to the advancing Germans during the retreat from Mons and allowed the BEF to escape. Sacked by French and sent home. Smith Dorrien was one of the few who escaped from Isandlwana (Battle in the opening sequence of the film Zulu) in 1879.
Look forward to seeing the photos Darren, see what I can decypher from them. Have you got a lift to Sheffield, we are taking a minibus load up from Herts but staying overnight on the Saturday if it's any use
Thanks for all the kind messages everyone re the Max Hastings program, they took my addicks badge off when fixing the Mic up!
Visited The Somme a couple of years ago and it inspired me to read up. Try Peter Hart's books on WW1 which mix historical fact and testimonies and letters home. Very humbling
SE7toSG3, got the information from my Dads about his grandfather. I will sift through it to reacquaint myself with the facts we know and then pm you the details.
Visited The Somme a couple of years ago and it inspired me to read up.
Try Peter Hart's books on WW1 which mix historical fact and testimonies and letters home. Very humbling
Peter is a real character, he does tours with me for the Western Front Association and Haig Fellowship. He drinks, swears like a trooper, is a labour party activist and is still in a Punk Band called 'those naughty lumps', great company and as far from many peoples view of what historians are like.
Send through what you can Soapy and I will have a look.
Hi Nick, havent forgotton your extensive list of names! We have hired a minivan thing and I am hoping to swing the vote to go up Saturday night, can you inbox the pub your at? 6/7 of us going up
Sir Horace Lockwood Smith-Dorrien Commander BEF II Corps 1914. Issued a stopping blow to the advancing Germans during the retreat from Mons and allowed the BEF to escape. Sacked by French and sent home. Smith Dorrien was one of the few who escaped from Isandlwana (Battle in the opening sequence of the film Zulu) in 1879.
Big Smith Dorien supporter me, he was always up agaist it as John French favoured Greirson who then died of a heart attack in St Quentin before a shot had been fired. SD was his unwelcome replacement and sadly never got the full confidence of his staff.
I believe his Corps fought an essential delaying action at Le Cateau, the men related to him, his role at Isandlwana and the fact that the Le Cateau battle was fought on the 26 August which the anniversary of Crecy were all used as rallying factors for his troops.
Vastly outnumbered and eventually overwhelmed, the stand of the 2nd Suffolks, the charge of the 2/KOYLI led by Major Yate that led to the VC and the numerous 'saving of the guns' incidents including Bermondsey's own Fred Holmes all added to it being a classic retreat action for the BEF in 1914.
Many people dont realise that it was a far larger action than Mons (1600 casualties at Mons compared to 7,500 at Le Cateau). It also marks the splitting of the 2 British Corps as Haigs went further east from Landrecies, this gap was not filled until the Aisne weeks later.
I believe SD was treated badly after Le Cateau, he had little choice but to stand and fight as by the time the direct order to retire came he was already in contact with the advancing Germans.
My last posting in the army was as an instructor at Sandhurst and I got some fascinating papers held at staff college that looked into the battle.
quite a few of them appear in the new book Catastrophe I helped out with. Smith Dorrien is buried in Berkhamsted, Hertfordshire, he was not popular with the navy as during his time as the Governer of Gibralter he shut a number of brothels and restricted alcohol, as a soldier though he wasnt half bad and a good call to bring him up Asian Zidane
Good question Nick, not quite true but they certainly had the better life of it.
If you look at a map from Mons, SD's II Corps are almost the only ones to fight on the 23rd, as both Corps retreat south towards Bavai its Allenby's Cavalry that are acting as a screen for the BEF. Once south of Bavai the Mormal Forest blocks your path, the traffic congestion was terrible so it was decided that Smith Dorriens men would take the west side, a more direct route and wait at Le Cateau, whilst DH would go east around to Landrecies after which both would link up again and continue south.
The wood was supposedly inpassable, no-one told the German however as early on the 25th German transport columns emerged from the wood and bumped straight into the Guards who were protecting the town, Haig panicked and ordered an immediate withdrawal. His troops were also involved in a last stand at Etreux where the 2/RMunster Fusiliers were left on the wrong side of the Sambre canal after the bridge was blown and were all but wiped out.
Haig himself recalls hearing guns to the west, the start of the Le Cateau battle but could (did) not go to assist.
So whilst a number of his units were involved in localised actions and did suffer casualties they were nowhere near those felt by SD's troops.
On reflection this is a good job as where Haig really comes to note is at First Ypres in the October when we needed every man we had left......right off to bed, once we hit August and the dates start passing I might do a little synopsis once a month of what happened?
Hi Darren, thanks for taking the time to post these up, I am sure you know most of this but a litte about the bits you have posted,
lot A (as they are being called), though rightly priceless to you I would put a conservative estimate for insurance purposes of around £1500:00 the four medals are as follows, i George V Military Cross, this was awarded for bravery in the field and around 37000 were issued between 1914/1920, when you consider there were almost 6 million men who served in the British Army in the Great War they certainly are not common. All were issued unamed but many, like this were contemporarily engraved by the recipient, it came in a nice, white felt, leather box of issue.
ii 1915 Star, this was issued to men who served overseas from 1915 (similar but not the same as the 1914 or Mons star), named on the reverse (Albert was a Lance Corporal when his was issued). The ribbon, yours is original, reflects the Union Flag colours. The ribbons were issued whilst the war was still on.
iii British War Medal, issued to all men in uniform, and some essential war work civilians it is solid silver (so often missing as they were sold for scrap during hard times) it will be named on the rim, with George V on the front the rear is a striking man on horseback crushing an imperial German eagle! The ribbon is coloured to black, blue and amber but has no specific meaning.
iv Victory Medal, the most common of the medals it depicts the winged angel of victory on the front and "the great war for civilisation 1914/19" on the reverse (this being the year when hostilities officially ceased). The multi coloured ribbons reflect the rainbow of nations that defeated the Germans and the French, USA, Italians etc awarded a similar medal with and identical ribbon.
Moving onto the large bronze coin (lot b) its an interesting addition as it has no military meaning at all, they were produced for the public when a new president was elected (a bit like our coronation/jubilee coins), your is for Francois Carnot who was elcted in December 1887, other than a minor colonial skirmish in Panama he had a fairly quiet time running the country and was quite popular when, in 1894, he was assasinated in Lyon by an Italian anarchist! Why did your grandad have it, two theories, one that he picked it up in the rubble of a destroyed building during the war and souvenired it, two a family he was billted with in France gave it to him as a gift. Its monetary value is around £50 but given its provenance to your grandad again priceless to you.
The hanky is a lovely thing, I have a collection of around a dozen my great grandad sent home during his time in France, they fetch around £40 each if in good nick, yours is embroided with the union flag and French tricolour to represent the entente cordial and the flower is the Corn Flower, this is the French equivalent of a poppy as it grows abundently across the battlefields and matches the horizon blue uniforms of the French soldier or Poilu (which tranlates literally to the hairy one). They were widely available to buy just behind the trenches as many rural workers whose farms were destroyed and land was occupied by the battlefield found alternate employment in nearby cities making souvenirs for the Tommys, running brothels, bars or opening photographis studios, many when the war ended were worse off as their entire economy was based around the British Army! Yours was probably made in Bethune, Armentieres, Lille, Arras, Albert or Amiens.
Lastly, the second war group were to a family member who served in North West Europe, what you have is a France & Germany Star to reflect the campaign overseas he served in, the 1939/45 Star for being in the armed services in the last war and the British War Medal. None are named which means unless you have the small cardbox box of issue which has the name and address slip on it they are of minimal value. If you have the details of the recipient then the value is between £120/150 for the group.
I know that you are not interested in the values but have included them so you can print off and show young Declan so he doesnt swap them for some marbles or a panini sticker in years to come!
Thanks for sharing them online, some lovely family memories, I would probably have more comprehensive info if you have a particular query but have just typed away/waffled on my ipad whilst watching the football so excuse any typos
You probably know he is buried in Taukkyan Cemetery, Rangoon (though is now called Yangon) on the edge of a lovely national park. His unit 2nd Battalion Royal Norfolk Regiment had fought in France in 1940 before the remnants were evacuated through Dunkirk late May. After retraining and resting the 2nd Infantry Division they were part of went to South East Asia and famously, alongside the Royal West Kents were heavily involved at Imphal and Kohima. This epic battle between March & June 1944 stopped the Japanese advance into India and marked the turning tide, as the Japanese army were forced to retreat back the Norfolks followed them and eventually forced them back as far as Mandelay. The Japanese then retired to Rangoon before eventually surrendering in May 1945 (though the war in the East continued).
I found a picture of Sgt Fitts platoon in Burma maybe your uncle is among them somewhere?
If you have a look on www.burmastar.org.uk and look at the 2/Norfolks page there appears a number of veterans left who may be able to fill in the gaps, Leonard is certainly listed on the Roll of Honour
One of my mates Peter Hart wrote a history of the battalion "At the Sharp End" I have emailed him tonight to try and blag a freebie for you so will let you know what he says, he owes me a few favours!
Comments
Issued a stopping blow to the advancing Germans during the retreat from Mons and allowed the BEF to escape.
Sacked by French and sent home.
Smith Dorrien was one of the few who escaped from Isandlwana (Battle in the opening sequence of the film Zulu) in 1879.
Thanks for all the kind messages everyone re the Max Hastings program, they took my addicks badge off when fixing the Mic up!
Try Peter Hart's books on WW1 which mix historical fact and testimonies and letters home.
Very humbling
Thanks
Send through what you can Soapy and I will have a look.
Where are you staying in Sheffield Clive?
We have hired a minivan thing and I am hoping to swing the vote to go up Saturday night, can you inbox the pub your at? 6/7 of us going up
I believe his Corps fought an essential delaying action at Le Cateau, the men related to him, his role at Isandlwana and the fact that the Le Cateau battle was fought on the 26 August which the anniversary of Crecy were all used as rallying factors for his troops.
Vastly outnumbered and eventually overwhelmed, the stand of the 2nd Suffolks, the charge of the 2/KOYLI led by Major Yate that led to the VC and the numerous 'saving of the guns' incidents including Bermondsey's own Fred Holmes all added to it being a classic retreat action for the BEF in 1914.
Many people dont realise that it was a far larger action than Mons (1600 casualties at Mons compared to 7,500 at Le Cateau). It also marks the splitting of the 2 British Corps as Haigs went further east from Landrecies, this gap was not filled until the Aisne weeks later.
I believe SD was treated badly after Le Cateau, he had little choice but to stand and fight as by the time the direct order to retire came he was already in contact with the advancing Germans.
My last posting in the army was as an instructor at Sandhurst and I got some fascinating papers held at staff college that looked into the battle.
quite a few of them appear in the new book Catastrophe I helped out with. Smith Dorrien is buried in Berkhamsted, Hertfordshire, he was not popular with the navy as during his time as the Governer of Gibralter he shut a number of brothels and restricted alcohol, as a soldier though he wasnt half bad and a good call to bring him up Asian Zidane
If you look at a map from Mons, SD's II Corps are almost the only ones to fight on the 23rd, as both Corps retreat south towards Bavai its Allenby's Cavalry that are acting as a screen for the BEF. Once south of Bavai the Mormal Forest blocks your path, the traffic congestion was terrible so it was decided that Smith Dorriens men would take the west side, a more direct route and wait at Le Cateau, whilst DH would go east around to Landrecies after which both would link up again and continue south.
The wood was supposedly inpassable, no-one told the German however as early on the 25th German transport columns emerged from the wood and bumped straight into the Guards who were protecting the town, Haig panicked and ordered an immediate withdrawal. His troops were also involved in a last stand at Etreux where the 2/RMunster Fusiliers were left on the wrong side of the Sambre canal after the bridge was blown and were all but wiped out.
Haig himself recalls hearing guns to the west, the start of the Le Cateau battle but could (did) not go to assist.
So whilst a number of his units were involved in localised actions and did suffer casualties they were nowhere near those felt by SD's troops.
On reflection this is a good job as where Haig really comes to note is at First Ypres in the October when we needed every man we had left......right off to bed, once we hit August and the dates start passing I might do a little synopsis once a month of what happened?
Can you make it weekly though? :-)
There is a great WW2 day by Day twitter accounnt.
Hope someone does the same for WW1
the pics attached
1 lot is the WW1 medals
1 is the coin I spoke about
1 is the silk hanky
the other 1 is ww2 medals from an uncle
http://www.photoblog.com/Jarvo/2010/11/11/315-the-uncle-i-never-met.html
lot A (as they are being called), though rightly priceless to you I would put a conservative estimate for insurance purposes of around £1500:00 the four medals are as follows,
i George V Military Cross, this was awarded for bravery in the field and around 37000 were issued between 1914/1920, when you consider there were almost 6 million men who served in the British Army in the Great War they certainly are not common. All were issued unamed but many, like this were contemporarily engraved by the recipient, it came in a nice, white felt, leather box of issue.
ii 1915 Star, this was issued to men who served overseas from 1915 (similar but not the same as the 1914 or Mons star), named on the reverse (Albert was a Lance Corporal when his was issued). The ribbon, yours is original, reflects the Union Flag colours. The ribbons were issued whilst the war was still on.
iii British War Medal, issued to all men in uniform, and some essential war work civilians it is solid silver (so often missing as they were sold for scrap during hard times) it will be named on the rim, with George V on the front the rear is a striking man on horseback crushing an imperial German eagle! The ribbon is coloured to black, blue and amber but has no specific meaning.
iv Victory Medal, the most common of the medals it depicts the winged angel of victory on the front and "the great war for civilisation 1914/19" on the reverse (this being the year when hostilities officially ceased). The multi coloured ribbons reflect the rainbow of nations that defeated the Germans and the French, USA, Italians etc awarded a similar medal with and identical ribbon.
Moving onto the large bronze coin (lot b) its an interesting addition as it has no military meaning at all, they were produced for the public when a new president was elected (a bit like our coronation/jubilee coins), your is for Francois Carnot who was elcted in December 1887, other than a minor colonial skirmish in Panama he had a fairly quiet time running the country and was quite popular when, in 1894, he was assasinated in Lyon by an Italian anarchist! Why did your grandad have it, two theories, one that he picked it up in the rubble of a destroyed building during the war and souvenired it, two a family he was billted with in France gave it to him as a gift. Its monetary value is around £50 but given its provenance to your grandad again priceless to you.
The hanky is a lovely thing, I have a collection of around a dozen my great grandad sent home during his time in France, they fetch around £40 each if in good nick, yours is embroided with the union flag and French tricolour to represent the entente cordial and the flower is the Corn Flower, this is the French equivalent of a poppy as it grows abundently across the battlefields and matches the horizon blue uniforms of the French soldier or Poilu (which tranlates literally to the hairy one). They were widely available to buy just behind the trenches as many rural workers whose farms were destroyed and land was occupied by the battlefield found alternate employment in nearby cities making souvenirs for the Tommys, running brothels, bars or opening photographis studios, many when the war ended were worse off as their entire economy was based around the British Army! Yours was probably made in Bethune, Armentieres, Lille, Arras, Albert or Amiens.
Lastly, the second war group were to a family member who served in North West Europe, what you have is a France & Germany Star to reflect the campaign overseas he served in, the 1939/45 Star for being in the armed services in the last war and the British War Medal. None are named which means unless you have the small cardbox box of issue which has the name and address slip on it they are of minimal value. If you have the details of the recipient then the value is between £120/150 for the group.
I know that you are not interested in the values but have included them so you can print off and show young Declan so he doesnt swap them for some marbles or a panini sticker in years to come!
Thanks for sharing them online, some lovely family memories, I would probably have more comprehensive info if you have a particular query but have just typed away/waffled on my ipad whilst watching the football so excuse any typos
The ww2 medals yes mate I have the box and the greaseproof paper they were indiviually wrapped in
Thanku mate
You probably know he is buried in Taukkyan Cemetery, Rangoon (though is now called Yangon) on the edge of a lovely national park. His unit 2nd Battalion Royal Norfolk Regiment had fought in France in 1940 before the remnants were evacuated through Dunkirk late May. After retraining and resting the 2nd Infantry Division they were part of went to South East Asia and famously, alongside the Royal West Kents were heavily involved at Imphal and Kohima. This epic battle between March & June 1944 stopped the Japanese advance into India and marked the turning tide, as the Japanese army were forced to retreat back the Norfolks followed them and eventually forced them back as far as Mandelay. The Japanese then retired to Rangoon before eventually surrendering in May 1945 (though the war in the East continued).
I found a picture of Sgt Fitts platoon in Burma maybe your uncle is among them somewhere?
If you have a look on www.burmastar.org.uk and look at the 2/Norfolks page there appears a number of veterans left who may be able to fill in the gaps, Leonard is certainly listed on the Roll of Honour
One of my mates Peter Hart wrote a history of the battalion "At the Sharp End" I have emailed him tonight to try and blag a freebie for you so will let you know what he says, he owes me a few favours!