Except that is not the whole picture is it?! To facilitate the sale of the club Aviva (formerly Norwich Union) wrote off a large sum on the outstanding mortgage...just as Palace prospective owners cut a deal with HBOS to pick up Selhurst at a major discount... Whereas we are still paying off a mortgage on part of our ground at £1m a year. Palace and Southampton have new owners AND a lack of legacy debts to thank for their rise while other clubs soldier on with debts of £30-40M Edit: just looked it up and Southampton had £30m of debts when they fell over and yet were acquired in a deal for £15m...suggesting someone took a hit of £15m!
Seriously, Southampton paid every penny. Southampton had debts of £27.5m, which was a Barclays Bank overdraft of £4.4m and other creditors of £23.1m. The majority of the debt was the mortgage on the stadium to Aviva that had 12 years left to run. Liebherr paid most of it off in one go and got a discount (just like if you paid off your mortgage now, you would pay less than you would do if you carried on paying in installments) on that with the rest of the payment (about £5m) becoming due if Southampton reached the Premier League within five years which we did and so Aviva was paid in full. No-one took a hit of £15m. No-one took a hit of anything.
say what you want but it sits prettier if we can minge and whinge about every other club in the world when our slickly run Belgian freak show is the model for all clubs to follow
Except that is not the whole picture is it?! To facilitate the sale of the club Aviva (formerly Norwich Union) wrote off a large sum on the outstanding mortgage...just as Palace prospective owners cut a deal with HBOS to pick up Selhurst at a major discount... Whereas we are still paying off a mortgage on part of our ground at £1m a year. Palace and Southampton have new owners AND a lack of legacy debts to thank for their rise while other clubs soldier on with debts of £30-40M Edit: just looked it up and Southampton had £30m of debts when they fell over and yet were acquired in a deal for £15m...suggesting someone took a hit of £15m!
Seriously, Southampton paid every penny. Southampton had debts of £27.5m, which was a Barclays Bank overdraft of £4.4m and other creditors of £23.1m. The majority of the debt was the mortgage on the stadium to Aviva that had 12 years left to run. Liebherr paid most of it off in one go and got a discount (just like if you paid off your mortgage now, you would pay less than you would do if you carried on paying in installments) on that with the rest of the payment (about £5m) becoming due if Southampton reached the Premier League within five years which we did and so Aviva was paid in full. No-one took a hit of £15m. No-one took a hit of anything.
say what you want but it sits prettier if we can minge and whinge about every other club in the world when our slickly run Belgian freak show is the model for all clubs to follow
How is it a freak show oohaah? Have we signed Joseph Merrick?
Except that is not the whole picture is it?! To facilitate the sale of the club Aviva (formerly Norwich Union) wrote off a large sum on the outstanding mortgage...just as Palace prospective owners cut a deal with HBOS to pick up Selhurst at a major discount... Whereas we are still paying off a mortgage on part of our ground at £1m a year. Palace and Southampton have new owners AND a lack of legacy debts to thank for their rise while other clubs soldier on with debts of £30-40M Edit: just looked it up and Southampton had £30m of debts when they fell over and yet were acquired in a deal for £15m...suggesting someone took a hit of £15m!
Seriously, Southampton paid every penny. Southampton had debts of £27.5m, which was a Barclays Bank overdraft of £4.4m and other creditors of £23.1m. The majority of the debt was the mortgage on the stadium to Aviva that had 12 years left to run. Liebherr paid most of it off in one go and got a discount (just like if you paid off your mortgage now, you would pay less than you would do if you carried on paying in installments) on that with the rest of the payment (about £5m) becoming due if Southampton reached the Premier League within five years which we did and so Aviva was paid in full. No-one took a hit of £15m. No-one took a hit of anything.
say what you want but it sits prettier if we can minge and whinge about every other club in the world when our slickly run Belgian freak show is the model for all clubs to follow
How is it a freak show oohaah? Have we signed Joseph Merrick?
Nope , we're looking to get him on loan and he has a Belgium connection from his wiki page "In Belgium, Merrick was robbed by his road manager and abandoned in Brussels. He eventually made his way back to London; unable to communicate" huh !
Professional footballers are such babies. Bet he was stamping his foot after he tweeted this.
Thought the same, sounds like a 13 year old school girl crying over Take That splitting up. Get a grip lad.
Can't believe what is happening with Saints, so much good work done on the pitch. Still a few decent players like Ward-Prowse, Clyne and at a push Wanyama but to lose a majority of your first team is shocking. Don't know what Koeman has up his sleeve either.
Professional footballers are such babies. Bet he was stamping his foot after he tweeted this.
Thought the same, sounds like a 13 year old school girl crying over Take That splitting up. Get a grip lad.
Can't believe what is happening with Saints, so much good work done on the pitch. Still a few decent players like Ward-Prowse, Clyne and at a push Wanyama but to lose a majority of your first team is shocking. Don't know what Koeman has up his sleeve either.
£27m for Schneiderlin is a ridiculous sum to turn down though, a player they originally bought in L1!
Hey @Saint_Andy, whats your take on all your outs? I cant believe you've let so many go.
Saints got very lucky the day that Markus Liebherr decided to buy the club. We were able to outspend everyone in League One and all but West Ham in the Championship which felt good. But the problem with taking vicarious pleasure out of things you have no control over is that you have no control over it. It's foolish to believe that players have as much emotional investment in your club as the fans do, but most of us are fools and so I'm allowing what's happening to upset me.
Financial Fair Play isn't to blame, it means clubs can't just use money as a Football Manager cheat code, but it is possible for a club to do the right thing and break into the top four with a mix of academy players, players picked up cheaply and a small amount of losses to pay for stars. It seems like that's what Saints were trying to do and the players were sold the progression with a promise that the rewards would come if Southampton were in the Champions League. The chances of that happening were always very slight but Nicola Cortese was gambling with Markus Liebherr's pocket money so it wasn't putting the future of the club at risk. When Markus died, it transpired that he wasn't as minted as everyone (and maybe his daughter) had been led to believe, only in the hundreds of millions rather than the billions. Katarina's less willing to put at risk her inheritance so the Champions League gamble is off the table. So all the players who can play at Champions League level are off or want to leave. I can't blame any of them, the only one I'm annoyed by was Lallana because he handled it like a cock.
So Southampton will be what it always was, a bottom half Premier / top half Championship side with a good reputation for developing young players. There are a lot of clubs in worse states, at least Saints aren't Portsmouth.
£27m for Schneiderlin is a ridiculous sum to turn down though, a player they originally bought in L1!
Hold on a minute, this is Daniel Levy we're allegedly talking about here. Offering £27m? Of course, Saints may want £27m but Daniel Levy offering £27m? I cant quite see that myself. You all know how tight he is. He's probably offered Michael Dawson in part exchange...with a set of training bibs.
Except that is not the whole picture is it?! To facilitate the sale of the club Aviva (formerly Norwich Union) wrote off a large sum on the outstanding mortgage...just as Palace prospective owners cut a deal with HBOS to pick up Selhurst at a major discount... Whereas we are still paying off a mortgage on part of our ground at £1m a year. Palace and Southampton have new owners AND a lack of legacy debts to thank for their rise while other clubs soldier on with debts of £30-40M Edit: just looked it up and Southampton had £30m of debts when they fell over and yet were acquired in a deal for £15m...suggesting someone took a hit of £15m!
Seriously, Southampton paid every penny. Southampton had debts of £27.5m, which was a Barclays Bank overdraft of £4.4m and other creditors of £23.1m. The majority of the debt was the mortgage on the stadium to Aviva that had 12 years left to run. Liebherr paid most of it off in one go and got a discount (just like if you paid off your mortgage now, you would pay less than you would do if you carried on paying in installments) on that with the rest of the payment (about £5m) becoming due if Southampton reached the Premier League within five years which we did and so Aviva was paid in full. No-one took a hit of £15m. No-one took a hit of anything.
It took me five minutes on the Web to find four references to Aviva taking a hit. Remember this was 2009 when all loans were trading at a discount of upto 50% and I've since heard CAFC could have saved a few quid if we had settled early on our debts. Also when football club deals are quoted they tend to include the settling of debts so CAFC wasn't bought for £14m and Sheffield Wednesday was certainly not bought for £50m! The clubs are bought for a tenner and debts are either cleared (at a discount) or novated to the new structure. Aviva were widely reported at the time to have discounted the deal just to walk away from a near bankrupt football club in league 1. It happens that we have found a different route back to the Championship with new owners, manager and mainly new players but it appears some of our fans like to have a moan at that even though we are about to repeat the process for a second time: new owner (this time very rich) new head coach and 2/3 (23) of our squad leaving over the summer to be replaced with 10 or 11 signed from around northern Europe.
£27m for Schneiderlin is a ridiculous sum to turn down though, a player they originally bought in L1!
Hold on a minute, this is Daniel Levy we're allegedly talking about here. Offering £27m? Of course, Saints may want £27m but Daniel Levy offering £27m? I cant quite see that myself. You all know how tight he is. He's probably offered Michael Dawson in part exchange...with a set of training bibs.
spot on, he just traded Ben Davies for Sigurdsson, he's capable of convincing them that Rose is the best lB in the league and that trading him with Schneiderlin would be a superb deal.
Levy is the kind of guy that probably convinces the waiter to tip him at the end of his meal.
Okay, lots for me to reply to and I've only got a short amount of time.
@stonewallpenalty - basically, Adam Lallana had always played on the loyalty card, badge kissing saying things like he would like to play the rest of his career with Southampton, making a big thing of not going to Wolves when the administration fire sale happens. Then the transfer rumours started, he autographed some kids Liverpool shirt, said that he hoped to move to Liverpool soon and when he did said that he couldn't stop dreaming about playing for Liverpool in the last few months of last season. All that while being the team captain. Dejan Lovren did worse by threatening to strike if he wasn't sold but he had never presented himself as being a loyal fan.
@seriously_red - There was a good summary of the admin in the Swiss Ramble blog back in 2012, http://swissramble.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/southampton-saints-alive.html Note the contingent creditor if Saints get to the Premier League before 2015/16. That was Aviva, you're correct that they took a hit in 2009 but as Saints did repay that on promotion to the Premier League I'm right that no-one's been out of pocket and Saints repaid every penny.
@kings hill addick - Friends Provident was the team and stadium sponsor. Must have been the worse stadium sponsorship ever as no-one except the club ever called it the Friends Provident St.Mary's Stadium.
£27m for Schneiderlin is a ridiculous sum to turn down though, a player they originally bought in L1!
Hold on a minute, this is Daniel Levy we're allegedly talking about here. Offering £27m? Of course, Saints may want £27m but Daniel Levy offering £27m? I cant quite see that myself. You all know how tight he is. He's probably offered Michael Dawson in part exchange...with a set of training bibs.
spot on, he just traded Ben Davies for Sigurdsson, he's capable of convincing them that Rose is the best lB in the league and that trading him with Schneiderlin would be a superb deal.
Levy is the kind of guy that probably convinces the waiter to tip him at the end of his meal.
Hey @Belgian_Spur, nice to see another Lillywhite on here
£27m for Schneiderlin is a ridiculous sum to turn down though, a player they originally bought in L1!
Hold on a minute, this is Daniel Levy we're allegedly talking about here. Offering £27m? Of course, Saints may want £27m but Daniel Levy offering £27m? I cant quite see that myself. You all know how tight he is. He's probably offered Michael Dawson in part exchange...with a set of training bibs.
spot on, he just traded Ben Davies for Sigurdsson, he's capable of convincing them that Rose is the best lB in the league and that trading him with Schneiderlin would be a superb deal.
Levy is the kind of guy that probably convinces the waiter to tip him at the end of his meal.
Hey @Belgian_Spur, nice to see another Lillywhite on here
Hey @Saint_Andy, whats your take on all your outs? I cant believe you've let so many go.
So Southampton will be what it always was, a bottom half Premier / top half Championship side with a good reputation for developing young players.
The 10 year league table shows Southampton at 26, which is nothing like a bottom half Prem club - it is very much like a top half Champs club. Charlton are 27 by the way (Palace 29).
£27m for Schneiderlin is a ridiculous sum to turn down though, a player they originally bought in L1!
Hold on a minute, this is Daniel Levy we're allegedly talking about here. Offering £27m? Of course, Saints may want £27m but Daniel Levy offering £27m? I cant quite see that myself. You all know how tight he is. He's probably offered Michael Dawson in part exchange...with a set of training bibs.
spot on, he just traded Ben Davies for Sigurdsson, he's capable of convincing them that Rose is the best lB in the league and that trading him with Schneiderlin would be a superb deal.
Levy is the kind of guy that probably convinces the waiter to tip him at the end of his meal.
Hey @Belgian_Spur, nice to see another Lillywhite on here
Not sure how recent it was - but I'm sure it's older than that. His firm isn't the one mentioned.
You are being a bit careful with your "Southampton Football Club Ltd" paid back every penny, aren't you? Again, a great deal of the pay backs were negotiated - 'it's this or nothing'.
What about Southampton Leisure Holdings?
All those small shareholders stabbed in the back (jusy like we were at CAFC) All those small unsecured creditors who are still owed over £5m.
I could have written that myself, I have been saying for years to anyone who would listen that we should just let the self styled "elite" push off and form their super league or whatever they want to call it. With no relegation the only way it could succeed would be to make the spread of income democratic enough that anyone could win it, and that would never happen with the kind of people that run those clubs. It would implode in a fairly short time.
Agree with everything they say, whilst many of our fans were worried about us being a feeder club for SL, what is more worrying is that nearly all football fans in Europe just accept that our leagues are one big feeder system for an elite few or even one in the Germans case, who screwed the system generations ago and our clubs let them get away with it.
Even worse is how they are good at convincing the average fan that the fault is the "new money" clubs like PSG & Man City, rather then asking why those clubs need to spend so big to ever have a hope of a foundation under this corrupt system.
Agree with everything they say, whilst many of our fans were worried about us being a feeder club for SL, what is more worrying is that nearly all football fans in Europe just accept that our leagues are one big feeder system for an elite few or even one in the Germans case, who screwed the system generations ago and our clubs let them get away with it.
Even worse is how they are good at convincing the average fan that the fault is the "new money" clubs like PSG & Man City, rather then asking why those clubs need to spend so big to ever have a hope of a foundation under this corrupt system.
True, even a team like Spurs , big club, large fanbase and one of the top 20 wealthiest clubs in the world. But all thats not even enough to have a slimmer of hope to go on a title hunt. We need to aim at 4 th spot and consider that a trophy, finishing 4 th is not a trophy. I ve never ever celebrated finishing in 4 th place as a player but it seems as a fan i should embrace the fact that 4 th means gates to the walhalla ...
Comments
Can't believe what is happening with Saints, so much good work done on the pitch. Still a few decent players like Ward-Prowse, Clyne and at a push Wanyama but to lose a majority of your first team is shocking. Don't know what Koeman has up his sleeve either.
Financial Fair Play isn't to blame, it means clubs can't just use money as a Football Manager cheat code, but it is possible for a club to do the right thing and break into the top four with a mix of academy players, players picked up cheaply and a small amount of losses to pay for stars. It seems like that's what Saints were trying to do and the players were sold the progression with a promise that the rewards would come if Southampton were in the Champions League. The chances of that happening were always very slight but Nicola Cortese was gambling with Markus Liebherr's pocket money so it wasn't putting the future of the club at risk. When Markus died, it transpired that he wasn't as minted as everyone (and maybe his daughter) had been led to believe, only in the hundreds of millions rather than the billions. Katarina's less willing to put at risk her inheritance so the Champions League gamble is off the table. So all the players who can play at Champions League level are off or want to leave. I can't blame any of them, the only one I'm annoyed by was Lallana because he handled it like a cock.
So Southampton will be what it always was, a bottom half Premier / top half Championship side with a good reputation for developing young players. There are a lot of clubs in worse states, at least Saints aren't Portsmouth.
A big Southampton fan who had to take you to court, just to get his material bill paid.
Hold on a minute, this is Daniel Levy we're allegedly talking about here. Offering £27m? Of course, Saints may want £27m but Daniel Levy offering £27m? I cant quite see that myself. You all know how tight he is. He's probably offered Michael Dawson in part exchange...with a set of training bibs.
Also when football club deals are quoted they tend to include the settling of debts so CAFC wasn't bought for £14m and Sheffield Wednesday was certainly not bought for £50m! The clubs are bought for a tenner and debts are either cleared (at a discount) or novated to the new structure.
Aviva were widely reported at the time to have discounted the deal just to walk away from a near bankrupt football club in league 1.
It happens that we have found a different route back to the Championship with new owners, manager and mainly new players but it appears some of our fans like to have a moan at that even though we are about to repeat the process for a second time: new owner (this time very rich) new head coach and 2/3 (23) of our squad leaving over the summer to be replaced with 10 or 11 signed from around northern Europe.
I'm sure that the stadium had a massive Friends Provident sign on it at one point.
Levy is the kind of guy that probably convinces the waiter to tip him at the end of his meal.
@stonewallpenalty - basically, Adam Lallana had always played on the loyalty card, badge kissing saying things like he would like to play the rest of his career with Southampton, making a big thing of not going to Wolves when the administration fire sale happens. Then the transfer rumours started, he autographed some kids Liverpool shirt, said that he hoped to move to Liverpool soon and when he did said that he couldn't stop dreaming about playing for Liverpool in the last few months of last season. All that while being the team captain. Dejan Lovren did worse by threatening to strike if he wasn't sold but he had never presented himself as being a loyal fan.
@Addickted - Do you mean this case? http://m.dailyecho.co.uk/news/10052525.Saints_ordered_to_pay___60k_debt_by_court/ That referred to work done in 2012, that Saints for some reason didn't pay until the builders took the club to court. I'm not excusing Saints for that but it's nothing to do with the administration which happened in 2009.
@seriously_red - There was a good summary of the admin in the Swiss Ramble blog back in 2012, http://swissramble.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/southampton-saints-alive.html Note the contingent creditor if Saints get to the Premier League before 2015/16. That was Aviva, you're correct that they took a hit in 2009 but as Saints did repay that on promotion to the Premier League I'm right that no-one's been out of pocket and Saints repaid every penny.
@kings hill addick - Friends Provident was the team and stadium sponsor. Must have been the worse stadium sponsorship ever as no-one except the club ever called it the Friends Provident St.Mary's Stadium.
Not sure how recent it was - but I'm sure it's older than that. His firm isn't the one mentioned.
You are being a bit careful with your "Southampton Football Club Ltd" paid back every penny, aren't you? Again, a great deal of the pay backs were negotiated - 'it's this or nothing'.
What about Southampton Leisure Holdings?
All those small shareholders stabbed in the back (jusy like we were at CAFC)
All those small unsecured creditors who are still owed over £5m.
Even worse is how they are good at convincing the average fan that the fault is the "new money" clubs like PSG & Man City, rather then asking why those clubs need to spend so big to ever have a hope of a foundation under this corrupt system.