Not surprised with the decision at all, UEFA and all of the national leagues do come down on unregistered and ineligible players like a ton of bricks, they are red hot on it.
Same thing happened to Debrecen a couple of years back (ineligible player on for last few minutes) and UEFA said it had no bearing on the result and they were just given a fine. UEFA are clowns who make it up as they go along.
This is incorrect.
Debrecen fielded an ineligible player - the punishment for that is a fine, although in some cases it can also lead to forfeiting the game.
Legia fielded a suspended player - the punishment for that is the automatic forfeiting of the fixture.
Sion were different again because they fielded FIVE ineligible players, all purchased during a transfer ban placed on the club.
They are two different offences so have two different punishments.
The above is an oversimplification.
The player in question was banned for three games - all parties agree on this.
The player duly did not play in either game of the previous round, nor did he play in the first game against Celtic - all parties agree on this.
Apparently under UEFA rules a player / club must register that the player could play but did not due to suspension.
It appears Legia filled in the paper work for the first game against Celtic but not the games in the previous round.
Legia will probably argue that it was an administrative error and the suspension had been completed. A not unreasonable stance, had they been aware during the previous round of the need to register that the player could play but did not due to suspension, then they surely would have registered him.
It seems likely that whoever deals with resolving any appeal will have to first decide whether it is an administrative error or not.
Surely, first of all, it comes down to whether a club competing at that stage in the Champions League can be expected to know the rules of the competition. If UEFA feels that the answer is yes, I'm afraid Legia don't really have much of a chance of winning an appeal. After all, Celtic would then be aggrieved that UEFA waived their own rules. If UEFA allows a technical infringement of this kind, it will set a precedent and clubs may start doing it intentionally.
Well they've gotta get through qualifying somehow! Scotch twats
I have noticed alot of cunts like you, posting about scottish football and scotland even though nobody cares about them.
Getting a bit boring now.
Agreed apart from the cunts part. If I see a thread like the lycra warriors (Cycling) I don't even click on it as I have no interest If I did however waste my time reading it, I'd choose against wasting more of my life away by posting that I have no interest in it. There's plenty who have an interest in Scottish football and divides a of opinion for various reasons, so why not if you have no interest just don't open the thread. I like to read opinion of both sides of Celtic & Rangers without reading "Who cares" etc
PS this isn't aimed at you Soapy as you're comment weren't in the context I was talking about.
Surely if they register him they are breaking the rules because he is suspended.
Think of it like Rooney banned for first two games of euro 2012. Still named in squad (registered) even though couldn't play. Not added to squad once available.
Well they've gotta get through qualifying somehow! Scotch twats
I have noticed alot of cunts like you, posting about scottish football and scotland even though nobody cares about them.
Getting a bit boring now.
Agreed apart from the cunts part. If I see a thread like the lycra warriors (Cycling) I don't even click on it as I have no interest If I did however waste my time reading it, I'd choose against wasting more of my life away by posting that I have no interest in it. There's plenty who have an interest in Scottish football and divides a of opinion for various reasons, so why not if you have no interest just don't open the thread. I like to read opinion of both sides of Celtic & Rangers without reading "Who cares" etc
PS this isn't aimed at you Soapy as you're comment weren't in the context I was talking about.
Don't care what anyone thinks of me, especially on CL. I have lived by the "C" word most of my life, I use it in conversation far too much out of habit and have been sanctioned for it on here and indeed had posts "edited" by the headmaster to take it out. What I have never done is call a fellow CL poster it directly on a thread no matter what I thought of them. Didn't like that.
Now Scottish football. I don't like Celtic or Rangers much for that matter. I don't like the politics of it, there is no room for it in football. I lived in Scotland for 8 months last year, I attended 8 Dumbarton home matches and enjoyed the football I saw in the Scottish Championship as it was full of honesty and endeavor. I also had good relationships and made life long friends up there. They were fond of labeling me an English twat in jest just as much as I would give it back in kind.
If Celtic fluke a bye into the next round it just makes me despise them more.
A completely absurd decision. Infact, it's a non decision. Lacking the courage or wit to actually think about the situation, the buffoons who've made this judgement have just blindly followed the rules.
On any reasonable interpretation Bartosz Bereszynski served his three match ban because he missed the first three matches of Legia Warsaw's European campaign this season. Technically, however, he didn't do so, it seems, because Legia Warsaw didn't register him for the second qualifying round. Two matches he couldn't have played in!! How absurd is that?
Then, as we know, having missed the first leg against Celtic, in order to complete his three match suspension, he came on minutes from the end of the second leg with Legia winning 6-1 on aggregate.
If there was a technical rule breach it was completely irrelevant to the outcome. Why weren't Legia Warsaw simply fined in the way Debrecen were a few years ago?
Legia will obviously appeal. If common sense prevails they'll be reinstated. Celtic ought to be hugely embarrassed and if they have any dignity they'll support the appeal.
Pathetic, but not untypical.
So your issue is with UEFA following the rules yep that make sense because we like the authorities that quote the rules when it suits them but forgot about them when it’s convenient. Let’s be honest all Celtic supporters were embarrassed by that result but fair play to whoever spotted and exploited the fact that the rules were not followed. I am sure if qualification follows Celtic supporters will enjoy 6 great Champions League matches (minimum) and will savour every minute of it.
No, my issue is not with UEFA following the rules per se. It's a) with an apparent unwillingness to distinguish between a flagrant and deliberate breach (the reason the rule exists) and a simple and innocent technicality and b) with a completely disproportionate punishment. All that's needed is some common sense.
Can you outlined the actual rule and demonstrate that this is a disproportionarte punishment or are you speculating here. Is Intent needed;does the rule itself distinguish between a accidental breach and a deliberate you would be surpised not all offences do. They are known as strict liability offences.
Think for a moment about the purpose of the rule and the typical sanction. If there was no such rule and consequent sanction then a team whose best player was suspended might choose to play him anyway in order to win the tie. Obvious, but important to bear in mind. In this situation the Club in breach is seeking to gain an unfair advantage. The sanction serves both as a way of addressing the advantage which has been unfairly gained and as a deterrent.
Now think about the Legia Warsaw situation. Their player had not played in their first three European ties. He had served his suspension. However, Legia did not include him in the 25 man squad for the first two of those matches and so they did not count as games missed. I very much doubt that Legia Warsaw either sought or gained advantage, unfair or otherwise, from that decision or administrative error. The player was then introduced for the final three minutes of a tie which by then they had won very comfortably. They were clearly not seeking to gain an advantage from doing so.
In my view the two situations are really quite different. That's not to say that Legia Warsaw shouldn't be punished, say with a fine, but a society which fails to adjust that punishment to reflect the profoundly different circumstances is headed for trouble in my view. If you have a different perspective then that's fair enough.
For a counter example, think about much of the bad behaviour in the financial system or in the area of "tax optimisation", for instance. Here, clever investment bankers, lawyers and accountants have devised schemes to circumvent rules and regulations, knowing full well that what they are doing confounds the intentions of the rule, regulation or tax code. Such behaviour became endemic because we created a culture in which it was the rules that mattered not what's right and wrong. That's a very unsatisfactory place to be in my view.
Legia Warsaw are experiencing the flip side of this pervasive dynamic, receiving a severe punishment because it's what the "rule" says, despite not having committed the "crime" the sanction was designed to address. They've been very hard done by.
As to whether this particular rule distinguishes between an accidental or deliberate breach then QED. We're already in trouble when that's the first question we ask when deciding what to do. I do understand the difference and I know exactly what I'm saying. I've no doubt you'll disagree.
Not surprised with the decision at all, UEFA and all of the national leagues do come down on unregistered and ineligible players like a ton of bricks, they are red hot on it.
Same thing happened to Debrecen a couple of years back (ineligible player on for last few minutes) and UEFA said it had no bearing on the result and they were just given a fine. UEFA are clowns who make it up as they go along.
This is incorrect.
Debrecen fielded an ineligible player - the punishment for that is a fine, although in some cases it can also lead to forfeiting the game.
Legia fielded a suspended player - the punishment for that is the automatic forfeiting of the fixture.
Sion were different again because they fielded FIVE ineligible players, all purchased during a transfer ban placed on the club.
They are two different offences so have two different punishments.
The above is an oversimplification.
The player in question was banned for three games - all parties agree on this.
The player duly did not play in either game of the previous round, nor did he play in the first game against Celtic - all parties agree on this.
Apparently under UEFA rules a player / club must register that the player could play but did not due to suspension.
It appears Legia filled in the paper work for the first game against Celtic but not the games in the previous round.
Legia will probably argue that it was an administrative error and the suspension had been completed. A not unreasonable stance, had they been aware during the previous round of the need to register that the player could play but did not due to suspension, then they surely would have registered him.
It seems likely that whoever deals with resolving any appeal will have to first decide whether it is an administrative error or not.
Yes, this case IS more complicated but it essentially boils down to the same thing, that being that Legia fielded an suspended player so therefore automatically forfeit the game under the existing and published rules.
@Algarveaddick - Common sense is not very common - and in these cases impossible to arbiter without crazy legal machinations. The law in these instances HAS to be black or white or clubs might push the rules deliberately.
Not surprised with the decision at all, UEFA and all of the national leagues do come down on unregistered and ineligible players like a ton of bricks, they are red hot on it.
Same thing happened to Debrecen a couple of years back (ineligible player on for last few minutes) and UEFA said it had no bearing on the result and they were just given a fine. UEFA are clowns who make it up as they go along.
This is incorrect.
Debrecen fielded an ineligible player - the punishment for that is a fine, although in some cases it can also lead to forfeiting the game.
Legia fielded a suspended player - the punishment for that is the automatic forfeiting of the fixture.
Sion were different again because they fielded FIVE ineligible players, all purchased during a transfer ban placed on the club.
They are two different offences so have two different punishments.
The above is an oversimplification.
The player in question was banned for three games - all parties agree on this.
The player duly did not play in either game of the previous round, nor did he play in the first game against Celtic - all parties agree on this.
Apparently under UEFA rules a player / club must register that the player could play but did not due to suspension.
It appears Legia filled in the paper work for the first game against Celtic but not the games in the previous round.
Legia will probably argue that it was an administrative error and the suspension had been completed. A not unreasonable stance, had they been aware during the previous round of the need to register that the player could play but did not due to suspension, then they surely would have registered him.
It seems likely that whoever deals with resolving any appeal will have to first decide whether it is an administrative error or not.
The law in these instances HAS to be black or white or clubs might push the rules deliberately.
To be fair, this is an important point and explains why absurd decisions like this get made. It doesn't make it right though. As I noted earlier (unintelligible or not), in this sense it's a non decision and I still believe that what UEFA need to do is have the courage to make a judgement, stand behind it and then deal with any challenges which arise. This rules based approach is simply a way of running away from the problem. Ironically, I'd bet they'd have found a way of letting Chelsea or Manchester City off for fear of an expensive legal challenge and damages.
Not surprised with the decision at all, UEFA and all of the national leagues do come down on unregistered and ineligible players like a ton of bricks, they are red hot on it.
Same thing happened to Debrecen a couple of years back (ineligible player on for last few minutes) and UEFA said it had no bearing on the result and they were just given a fine. UEFA are clowns who make it up as they go along.
This is incorrect.
Debrecen fielded an ineligible player - the punishment for that is a fine, although in some cases it can also lead to forfeiting the game.
Legia fielded a suspended player - the punishment for that is the automatic forfeiting of the fixture.
Sion were different again because they fielded FIVE ineligible players, all purchased during a transfer ban placed on the club.
They are two different offences so have two different punishments.
The above is an oversimplification.
The player in question was banned for three games - all parties agree on this.
The player duly did not play in either game of the previous round, nor did he play in the first game against Celtic - all parties agree on this.
Apparently under UEFA rules a player / club must register that the player could play but did not due to suspension.
It appears Legia filled in the paper work for the first game against Celtic but not the games in the previous round.
Legia will probably argue that it was an administrative error and the suspension had been completed. A not unreasonable stance, had they been aware during the previous round of the need to register that the player could play but did not due to suspension, then they surely would have registered him.
It seems likely that whoever deals with resolving any appeal will have to first decide whether it is an administrative error or not.
Yes, this case IS more complicated but it essentially boils down to the same thing, that being that Legia fielded an suspended player so therefore automatically forfeit the game under the existing and published rules.
@Algarveaddick - Common sense is not very common - and in these cases impossible to arbiter without crazy legal machinations. The law in these instances HAS to be black or white or clubs might push the rules deliberately.
Make you right, but then they should call them rules and not laws.
Well they've gotta get through qualifying somehow! Scotch twats
I have noticed alot of cunts like you, posting about scottish football and scotland even though nobody cares about them.
Getting a bit boring now.
Agreed apart from the cunts part. If I see a thread like the lycra warriors (Cycling) I don't even click on it as I have no interest If I did however waste my time reading it, I'd choose against wasting more of my life away by posting that I have no interest in it. There's plenty who have an interest in Scottish football and divides a of opinion for various reasons, so why not if you have no interest just don't open the thread. I like to read opinion of both sides of Celtic & Rangers without reading "Who cares" etc
PS this isn't aimed at you Soapy as you're comment weren't in the context I was talking about.
Don't care what anyone thinks of me, especially on CL. I have lived by the "C" word most of my life, I use it in conversation far too much out of habit and have been sanctioned for it on here and indeed had posts "edited" by the headmaster to take it out. What I have never done is call a fellow CL poster it directly on a thread no matter what I thought of them. Didn't like that.
Now Scottish football. I don't like Celtic or Rangers much for that matter. I don't like the politics of it, there is no room for it in football. I lived in Scotland for 8 months last year, I attended 8 Dumbarton home matches and enjoyed the football I saw in the Scottish Championship as it was full of honesty and endeavor. I also had good relationships and made life long friends up there. They were fond of labeling me an English twat in jest just as much as I would give it back in kind.
If Celtic fluke a bye into the next round it just makes me despise them more.
I was quoting the fella that used that word towards by agreeing with part of what he was saying, that's why I choose to say it wasn't aimed at you although I have to say despite not being scottish, but having good friends up there, you're comment could offend some (without knowing you're background or that it was in jest) especially in the politically correct world we live in.
On the other note, despite my Bias, rules are rules, common sense comes as a matter of opinion so what ever the circumstances the rules should apply, I would be more fuming as a Legia supporter at the guy paid to make the admin decisions, as Secretary/manager of a sunday league team for years I'd have no complaints playing a banned player and getting points taken away/ games forfeited.
If you're going to insult an entire nation it's as well to at least get the terminology right. "Scottish" refers to the people. ""Scotch" is a drink. I don't mind being called a Scottish twat when I have earned it but Scotch twat really gets up my kilt. :-)
If you're going to insult an entire nation it's as well to at least get the terminology right. "Scottish" refers to the people. ""Scotch" is a drink. I don't mind being called a Scottish twat when I have earned it but Scotch twat really gets up my kilt. :-)
I know, that's why I say it. Really winds the sweats I have worked with up and don't worry I get plenty back in kind...
It's UEFA who have embarrassed themselves. This decision undermines the integrity of the competition and is counter to any notion of fair play. I'll bet that the senior people in UEFA know the ruling is wrong. The question will be whether on appeal they (or their ethics committee) can find a way of reinstating Legia Warsaw within the narrow legality of the rule book.
Celtic will ignore this and even though technically it was the right decision by the rules of the game, this just embarrasses Celtic & the entire competion that one team can get beaten so one sided yet go through because the other team makes a paperwork error.
Comments
Pity because I still remember the Lisbon Lions - Euro Champions 1967, massive.
Getting a bit boring now.
Rules are rules and I believe Legia brought the issue up themselves?
PS this isn't aimed at you Soapy as you're comment weren't in the context I was talking about.
Now Scottish football. I don't like Celtic or Rangers much for that matter. I don't like the politics of it, there is no room for it in football. I lived in Scotland for 8 months last year, I attended 8 Dumbarton home matches and enjoyed the football I saw in the Scottish Championship as it was full of honesty and endeavor. I also had good relationships and made life long friends up there. They were fond of labeling me an English twat in jest just as much as I would give it back in kind.
If Celtic fluke a bye into the next round it just makes me despise them more.
Now think about the Legia Warsaw situation. Their player had not played in their first three European ties. He had served his suspension. However, Legia did not include him in the 25 man squad for the first two of those matches and so they did not count as games missed. I very much doubt that Legia Warsaw either sought or gained advantage, unfair or otherwise, from that decision or administrative error. The player was then introduced for the final three minutes of a tie which by then they had won very comfortably. They were clearly not seeking to gain an advantage from doing so.
In my view the two situations are really quite different. That's not to say that Legia Warsaw shouldn't be punished, say with a fine, but a society which fails to adjust that punishment to reflect the profoundly different circumstances is headed for trouble in my view. If you have a different perspective then that's fair enough.
For a counter example, think about much of the bad behaviour in the financial system or in the area of "tax optimisation", for instance. Here, clever investment bankers, lawyers and accountants have devised schemes to circumvent rules and regulations, knowing full well that what they are doing confounds the intentions of the rule, regulation or tax code. Such behaviour became endemic because we created a culture in which it was the rules that mattered not what's right and wrong. That's a very unsatisfactory place to be in my view.
Legia Warsaw are experiencing the flip side of this pervasive dynamic, receiving a severe punishment because it's what the "rule" says, despite not having committed the "crime" the sanction was designed to address. They've been very hard done by.
As to whether this particular rule distinguishes between an accidental or deliberate breach then QED. We're already in trouble when that's the first question we ask when deciding what to do. I do understand the difference and I know exactly what I'm saying. I've no doubt you'll disagree.
@Algarveaddick - Common sense is not very common - and in these cases impossible to arbiter without crazy legal machinations. The law in these instances HAS to be black or white or clubs might push the rules deliberately.
On the other note, despite my Bias, rules are rules, common sense comes as a matter of opinion so what ever the circumstances the rules should apply, I would be more fuming as a Legia supporter at the guy paid to make the admin decisions, as Secretary/manager of a sunday league team for years I'd have no complaints playing a banned player and getting points taken away/ games forfeited.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/28732601
Its simply a farce.