In Rooney's defence, international football is at a higher standard now. As others have pointed out, smaller nations in the 60s etc are now fully capable of giving any other international side a good game. Look at Croatia's B team giving Argentina a scare the other night, or the full Croatia side almost beating Brazil, in Brazil at a World Cup this year. Would that have happened 50 years ago? I think not.
They were part of Yugoslavia then.
Yugoslavia were World Cup semi finalists in the sixties.
Right…but Croatia is a smaller region than Yugoslavia was, obviously. That's my point.
In my opinion, Rooney suffers because of the start to his career-achieving what he did internationally and domestically at such a young age meant he could only go one way, and journalists and certain England fans alike who built him up now give him pelters because of it. To a lesser extent the same thing happened to Michael Owen.
Those figures don't lie and, although he undoubtedly hasn't quite fulfilled his potential, he will likely break the caps and goalscoring records which is a fantastic achievement.
Rooney becoming England's greatest goalscorer in the next year or so is probably the thing that puts me off England the most.
We had 3 or 4 tournaments where we had a chance, and would be considered to be one of the better teams - 96-04. We would go out on penalties, be unlucky etc. That doesn't happen anymore, because since then we've been sh1te.
The Rooney factor is heavily to blame. We have a talented player who is useless for his country, whether that's psychological, or poor management. He's had one good tournament (his first - 2004), and has disappointed at every opportunity since.
Some of the worst England performances I have seen are when we have played 1 up front (Rooney) and watched him drop behind the central midfielders to get on the ball, leaving no focal point/threat against even minor opposition.
He scored 9 goals in his first 16 games up to the end of the Euros in 2004, where he played as a striker, usually alongside Owen or Heskey. His next 3 goals took him 20 caps as his position was dropped deeper, and with the talent we had in midfield, we didn't need that.
Of his 43 goals, only 5 have been against top class opposition (teams better than England)
2 x Andorra, 2 x Belarus, 2 x Bulgaria, 4 x Croatia, 2 x Denmark, 1 x Ecuador, 2 x Estonia, 2 x Iceland, 3 x Kazakhstan, 1 x Liechtenstein, 1 x Macedonia, 2 x Montenegro, 1 x Norway, 2 x Poland, 1 x Russia, 4 x San Marino, 2 x Slovakia, 3 x Switzerland, 1 x Ukraine
1 x Argentina (friendly), 2 x Brazil (both friendlies), 1 x Netherlands (friendly), 1 x Uruguay (2014 World Cup)
He will get the record but, for me, he isn't fit to lace Charlton, Lineker, Greaves or Owen's international boots. In the last 10-15 years, I think Heskey has done more for England than Rooney.
And also you would say we are on average over the last 12 years around 10th best in the world? So it's not that often we will come up against teams better than us so to criticise him for that is a bit harsh.
Just won 2 tickets for the game tomorrow at work after donating to Children in Need. Will take my son to his first game there, think they are decent seats 12 rows from the front, includes Bobby Moore Club too.
I know you can only beat what's in front of you etc, but he has played against:
Argentina x 1 Brazil x 3 Spain x 1 France x 2 Germany x 2 Italy x 2 Netherlands x 3 Portugal x 3 Uruguay x 2
roughly 1 in 4 against those, which isn't bad at all. It just disappoints me that he will become our greatest ever goalscorer. Doesn't feel like he deserves it.
Owen is the nearest to Greaves on pure goal scoring ability. Bobby Charlton was a deep-lying Centre Forward and scored most of his goals around the edge of the box with lethal shooting. So not an out-and-out goalscorer.
Since Rooney has been around we have never had a major nation in our group, like Germany in 2000/2001 and Italy in 96/97
Those 2 matches over 2 and a bit years would make a huge difference obviously.
FFS I hate having to stick up for Rooney but I'm forced to when it's down to sheer bloody mindedness.
It was an example to illustrate the harder groups we had back then.
I've seen Rooney enough live in an England shirt to know he's not fit to lace the boots of the others and if you speak to most England regulars they'd agree.
Since Rooney has been around we have never had a major nation in our group, like Germany in 2000/2001 and Italy in 96/97
Those 2 matches over 2 and a bit years would make a huge difference obviously.
FFS I hate having to stick up for Rooney but I'm forced to when it's down to sheer bloody mindedness.
It was an example to illustrate the harder groups we had back then.
I've seen Rooney enough live in an England shirt to know he's not fit to lace the boots of the others and if you speak to most England regulars they'd agree.
Shame as he had the potential to be a great.
Not fit to lace their boots? Bit over the top. As for not being 'great', will any of those ahead of him in the goalscoring charts bar Charlton, go down in footballing history as 'greats'?
Since Rooney has been around we have never had a major nation in our group, like Germany in 2000/2001 and Italy in 96/97
Those 2 matches over 2 and a bit years would make a huge difference obviously.
FFS I hate having to stick up for Rooney but I'm forced to when it's down to sheer bloody mindedness.
It was an example to illustrate the harder groups we had back then.
I've seen Rooney enough live in an England shirt to know he's not fit to lace the boots of the others and if you speak to most England regulars they'd agree.
Shame as he had the potential to be a great.
Not fit to lace their boots? Bit over the top. As for not being 'great', will any of those ahead of him in the goalscoring charts bar Charlton, go down in footballing history as 'greats'?
Lineker is a great in my eyes. Did it for clubs and country, World Cup golden boot, hat-trick in el classico and would have been even more a legend at Barca if it wasn't for Cruyff.
Rooney is the most naturally gifted player we've had since Gazza,true, he has underperformed in recent tournaments - show me an England player that hasn't - but in the latest WC debacle we managed to score just twice:Rooney scored one and laid the other on a plate.
There are a number of youngsters coming through who have potential, but as yet that is all it remains.Rooney would still be the first name on my team sheet.
Lineker was the best striker I've seen since I started watching England, and if he was on the pitch, you knew we had a goal in us. Italia 90 was my favourite WC, and that England team has never been equalled since: proper men, black boots and just the one tattoo between them
Can the next person to start an England related thread put a "Don't open if you are not interested" caveat on it - like they do with computer games etc. I am really not interested in hearing another "I don't care about England" post when the rest of us are having a decent debate.
Can the next person to start an England related thread put a "Don't open if you are not interested" caveat on it - like they do with computer games etc. I am really not interested in hearing another "I hate England" post when the rest of us are having a decent debate.
Comparing the above scoring records is like comparing Sven's managerial record to Sir Alf Ramsey's. Ramsey's side played against opposition like West Germany, Brazil, Italy etc, SVG's oppo included games against Andorra, Macedonia and other similar lowly sides.
The standard of opposition in qualifying has dropped dramatically and it is therefore impossible to make a fair and proper comparison. Personally, I don't think Rooney should ever be labeled 'great' but the record looks set to be his.
Can the next person to start an England related thread put a "Don't open if you are not interested" caveat on it - like they do with computer games etc. I am really not interested in hearing another "I hate England" post when the rest of us are having a decent debate.
Comments
At the time these were competitive games as the four home nations played for a championship and certainly not friendlies.
Those figures don't lie and, although he undoubtedly hasn't quite fulfilled his potential, he will likely break the caps and goalscoring records which is a fantastic achievement. Me too-very much looking forward to it........
Good tickets behind the goal in block 134
FFS I hate having to stick up for Rooney but I'm forced to when it's down to sheer bloody mindedness.
We had 3 or 4 tournaments where we had a chance, and would be considered to be one of the better teams - 96-04. We would go out on penalties, be unlucky etc. That doesn't happen anymore, because since then we've been sh1te.
The Rooney factor is heavily to blame. We have a talented player who is useless for his country, whether that's psychological, or poor management. He's had one good tournament (his first - 2004), and has disappointed at every opportunity since.
Some of the worst England performances I have seen are when we have played 1 up front (Rooney) and watched him drop behind the central midfielders to get on the ball, leaving no focal point/threat against even minor opposition.
He scored 9 goals in his first 16 games up to the end of the Euros in 2004, where he played as a striker, usually alongside Owen or Heskey. His next 3 goals took him 20 caps as his position was dropped deeper, and with the talent we had in midfield, we didn't need that.
Of his 43 goals, only 5 have been against top class opposition (teams better than England)
2 x Andorra, 2 x Belarus, 2 x Bulgaria, 4 x Croatia, 2 x Denmark, 1 x Ecuador, 2 x Estonia, 2 x Iceland, 3 x Kazakhstan, 1 x Liechtenstein, 1 x Macedonia, 2 x Montenegro, 1 x Norway, 2 x Poland, 1 x Russia, 4 x San Marino, 2 x Slovakia, 3 x Switzerland, 1 x Ukraine
1 x Argentina (friendly), 2 x Brazil (both friendlies), 1 x Netherlands (friendly), 1 x Uruguay (2014 World Cup)
He will get the record but, for me, he isn't fit to lace Charlton, Lineker, Greaves or Owen's international boots. In the last 10-15 years, I think Heskey has done more for England than Rooney.
Argentina x 1
Brazil x 3
Spain x 1
France x 2
Germany x 2
Italy x 2
Netherlands x 3
Portugal x 3
Uruguay x 2
roughly 1 in 4 against those, which isn't bad at all. It just disappoints me that he will become our greatest ever goalscorer. Doesn't feel like he deserves it.
1. Greaves
2. Owen
3. Charlton
4. Lineker
5. Rooney
Owen is the nearest to Greaves on pure goal scoring ability. Bobby Charlton was a deep-lying Centre Forward and scored most of his goals around the edge of the box with lethal shooting. So not an out-and-out goalscorer.
I've seen Rooney enough live in an England shirt to know he's not fit to lace the boots of the others and if you speak to most England regulars they'd agree.
Shame as he had the potential to be a great.
Nothing against him personally but doesn't compare to Charlton, Lineker or even Shearer and Owen.
There are a number of youngsters coming through who have potential, but as yet that is all it remains.Rooney would still be the first name on my team sheet.
Lineker was the best striker I've seen since I started watching England, and if he was on the pitch, you knew we had a goal in us. Italia 90 was my favourite WC, and that England team has never been equalled since: proper men, black boots and just the one tattoo between them
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Has anyone said they 'hate England'?
The standard of opposition in qualifying has dropped dramatically and it is therefore impossible to make a fair and proper comparison. Personally, I don't think Rooney should ever be labeled 'great' but the record looks set to be his.