I can't get to there for some reason, can someone paste what they say about Friday night games please.
Here you go:
7. Friday Night Football CL said that traffic on a Friday night makes football prohibitive. KM said that Saturday can be difficult and busy for some people too. Just suggested as a trial. BR said trust has done a survey. Results to be published shortly. Saturday is one of the few protected football days. Will always be travel issues. Most fans come from SE London and Medway. Millwall crowds for recent Friday night games were lower than usual. Children less likely to attend on a Friday night. Tranmere tried Friday night games and got no floating support from Liverpool or Everton.
That stood out to me too. To be fair it says that it's not the clubs intention to stop the Valley Express but there is also a reference to it being loss making (is that just the cost of the coach vs the coach ticket or the cost of the coach vs the coach ticket + match ticket + concession sales ?) and they've already agreed to advise if they're removing it before the season tickets go on sale.
That stood out to me too. To be fair it says that it's not the clubs intention to stop the Valley Express but there is also a reference to it being loss making (is that just the cost of the coach vs the coach ticket or the cost of the coach vs the coach ticket + match ticket + concession sales ?) and they've already agreed to advise if they're removing it before the season tickets go on sale.
It's quite a complex calculation to determine the extra revenue derived from Valley Express users. But unless you do that calculation you cannot judge it to be a loss - maker. There was a bloke who worked very hard on that since its inception but I believe the club dispensed with his services....
That stood out to me too. To be fair it says that it's not the clubs intention to stop the Valley Express but there is also a reference to it being loss making (is that just the cost of the coach vs the coach ticket or the cost of the coach vs the coach ticket + match ticket + concession sales ?) and they've already agreed to advise if they're removing it before the season tickets go on sale.
It's quite a complex calculation to determine the extra revenue derived from Valley Express users. But unless you do that calculation you cannot judge it to be a loss - maker. There was a bloke who worked very hard on that since its inception but I believe the club dispensed with his services....
Valley Express is predicated on the assumption that you subsidise the coaches to increase ticket revenue over and above what it would otherwise be, so the net effect on the business is positive. Unless you run it inefficiently, the bigger the loss on the coaches, the greater the net gain in revenue.
I'm afraid if you cannot see beyond the coaches themselves breaking even - and I have had this conversation with KM without success - then you will destroy it. The club is congratulating itself on running fewer coaches, but it is actually worse off as a consequence.
In addition, extra coaches are more likely to carry people who wouldn't otherwise attend, so the multiplier effect on revenue increases with the subsidy.
Nearly every manager on the planet will know "managing upwards" can on occasion be the most difficult aspect of a job. That is not to challenge the skill set of any individual merely an ability to recognise the need to manage the potential for "executive excess" to create "public" disasters.
Managing upwards can be tough at the best of times, but it's doubly difficult when your boss is holed-up in his man cave trying to control the world remotely whilst scrutinising your every move via a live satellite link.
Personally I don't think a week is too long for publication.
- My guess is that extra effort went into getting the notes out with a week this time given the hoo-hah - considering the content, storm in a teacup. - That sincere apology which convinced the Trust to drop Liargate and get behind the team doesn't quite come across in the notes. - Cancelling Valley Express would be another White Flag exercise. Surely the response from many living long distances from the ground would be "if they can't be bothered, neither can I." It's not as if many need a big excuse to pack given the dross being served up and the way we are being treated by the owner in all respects.
It looks as if you had to actually be in the meeting to hear the voice, observe the body language, in order to judge the credibility of what Katrien said. The words in the minutes don't shed light on appointmentgate. If Valley Express is decimated because on one measure it is loss making then you might as well close down the club.
...If Valley Express is decimated because on one measure it is loss making then you might as well close down the club.
Blimey, that's a bit extreme, Seth. I know that we're all transport fanatics at Charlton, but I never realised that a coach ride was so central to our way of life that without it the club would fold.
It tends to focus largely on operational matters, and financial q's are banned (correct me if I'm wrong). I don't recall many if any on team or football, its not really for that, although I haven't been to every meeting, we rotate the Trust position between Board members a bit. There is sometimes a bit of Business Strategy, and on this occasion KM put her response to events of recent days, her being called a liar which she doesn't like, and an account of what happened. She came across as sincere, and compelling, but was pretty upset and it was more than a bit awkward, and not really appropriate for a further cross examination.
It is a little worrying to me that the club didn't seem to accept the loss leader aspect for VEX (is that the right acronym?), not sure what other Forum members thought of that? They want it to lose less money for sure which is not unreasonable, but I didn't see much evidence of it being part of a joined up approach, more as a separate business unit. I'm not in a position however to know how the numbers stack up, perhaps Airman can help with that at a later date? As for Friday night football the club seem to want to press ahead with a couple of games a year, regardless - I guess the attendance will speak for itself.
You may mock, but if they close Valley Express, I am sure that at least half of the people on my Coach will stop going, and that attendances, already threatened by the current behaviour of the owner and resulting crap that we are watching, will nosedive. We will soon have West Ham on our doorstep, how will they attract new supporters ?
You may mock, but if they close Valley Express, I am sure that at least half of the people on my Coach will stop going,
Playing devil's advocate why are you sure?
Not doubting you but a questionnaire the next time the coach runs asking "if Valley express is cancelled are you more/same/less likely to buy a season ticket/attend games would be some concrete evidence to back up what people are saying.
It could then to presented to the Club a, or better before, the next Fans Forum meeting.
I think the Friday night experiment is doomed to failure. What would have helped attendances in the short and long term was to appoint Curbishley as Manager and buying four decent quality Championship players. This would have the effect of lifting the fans and the players. But what do we get? Luzon,who is already on the payroll, and a Spurs U21 player. I have already stated that I will not go to another Charlton first team game until these Belgians have left the building. I have not taken this decision lightly and it is hurting me greatly, but I have been supporting us for over fifty years and I have never felt this badly about the way our club is going. We have had numerous bad times over the years, moving to Selhurst and also being within minutes of going out of business. But I always felt that the heart and soul of Charlton was still intact. I don't feel that anymore. The final straw was Meira's statement, which I thought was a bare faced lie.
You may mock, but if they close Valley Express, I am sure that at least half of the people on my Coach will stop going,
Playing devil's advocate why are you sure?
Not doubting you but a questionnaire the next time the coach runs asking "if Valley express is cancelled are you more/same/less likely to buy a season ticket/attend games would be some concrete evidence to back up what people are saying.
It could then to presented to the Club a, or better before, the next Fans Forum meeting.
Good idea, happy to set it up if concerned Expressers want to get in touch chair@castrust.org
That stood out to me too. To be fair it says that it's not the clubs intention to stop the Valley Express but there is also a reference to it being loss making (is that just the cost of the coach vs the coach ticket or the cost of the coach vs the coach ticket + match ticket + concession sales ?) and they've already agreed to advise if they're removing it before the season tickets go on sale.
It's quite a complex calculation to determine the extra revenue derived from Valley Express users. But unless you do that calculation you cannot judge it to be a loss - maker. There was a bloke who worked very hard on that since its inception but I believe the club dispensed with his services....
Valley Express is predicated on the assumption that you subsidise the coaches to increase ticket revenue over and above what it would otherwise be, so the net effect on the business is positive. Unless you run it inefficiently, the bigger the loss on the coaches, the greater the net gain in revenue.
I'm afraid if you cannot see beyond the coaches themselves breaking even - and I have had this conversation with KM without success - then you will destroy it. The club is congratulating itself on running fewer coaches, but it is actually worse off as a consequence.
In addition, extra coaches are more likely to carry people who wouldn't otherwise attend, so the multiplier effect on revenue increases with the subsidy.
That was basically the question I was asking - when KM says Valley Express is making a loss is she simply measuring the cost of hiring the coaches against the value of tickets on the coaches sold ? If so that's an incredibly simplistic way of looking at it.
I don't think they'll scrap it but I wouldn't be surprised if they increase prices so that that equation breaks even or makes a profit which doesn't sound like a great idea.
Very sad to hear the comments about Valley express. I have never used the service ( but know fans who do) but as others have posted it seems a very short sighted business idea, for the reasons that the Airman, and others has already stated. A bit like the Friday football, I am unsure that this is based on any sound business model, except that the CEO favours it. Sorry not convinced.
You may mock, but if they close Valley Express, I am sure that at least half of the people on my Coach will stop going, and that attendances, already threatened by the current behaviour of the owner and resulting crap that we are watching, will nosedive. We will soon have West Ham on our doorstep, how will they attract new supporters ?
Attracting supporters doesn't seem to concern Roly, in fact he appears to be taking our continuing support for granted. Katrien's statement that we have to accept that Roly will do things his way supports this view. Since doing it his way doesn't involve bringing in better players he will have to accept smaller attendances, especially if Valley Express goes. It all points to an uncertain future for our club, even if we avoid relegation, and since what happens on the pitch is central to everything else, it seems a pity that the subject has to remain the elephant in the room.
Roughly speaking ticket revenue generated by VEX net of VAT plus net profit on the ancillary spend over the season is six or seven times the loss on running the coaches. If you factor in other internal costs that might fall to about five times.
If the club understood the people who travel and why, it would be a very brave assumption that more than 80 per cent of them would continue without Valley Express.
However, a more likely outcome, especially in view of the furore it would otherwise create among season-ticket holders, is that they would remove some but not all routes. We have cut routes before, as we dropped down the divisions, because numbers changed, but what is left now is a core than ran successfully in League One.
The focus on reducing losses creates another problem, however, in that the club is excessively cautious about putting on more than the absolute minimum number of coaches, which removes any capacity for growth and refreshing the existing user base in the more popular areas. In other words, the main reason VEX was established, to generate additional support and therefore revenue, has been lost.
Clearly there is a balance to be struck, but over eight years we consistently ran at 90 per cent loading or more, and if we could operate viably in League One then there was and is no problem doing so in the Championship.
Ratcheting up the fare is also counter-productive if it leads to more empty seats.
While Henry's idea of a questionnaire is superficially attractive, the reality is it can't capture the revenue the club is already driving away (no pun intended) through its current approach.
You may mock, but if they close Valley Express, I am sure that at least half of the people on my Coach will stop going,
Playing devil's advocate why are you sure?
Not doubting you but a questionnaire the next time the coach runs asking "if Valley express is cancelled are you more/same/less likely to buy a season ticket/attend games would be some concrete evidence to back up what people are saying.
It could then to presented to the Club a, or better before, the next Fans Forum meeting.
Good idea, happy to set it up if concerned Expressers want to get in touch chair@castrust.org
I think that would be a good idea. I actually agree with Gramps. I feel there are a number on my coach who certainly wouldn't renew their season tickets if Valley Express folded. It is so convenient when you live where we are and people wouldn't drive or go by train if it ceased to exist. Maybe you could say then that they are not committed supporters but that isn't true. The majority on our coach are over sixty and life long committed fans but it must get to the point where enough is enough. I'm not saying they would stop entirely but not be renewing their season tickets. My parents are now 80, if Valley Express ceased then that would be it for them.
I'm happy to wander down our coach to ask the question for a survey, or hand them out and then collect them in, whatever, but ceasing Valley Express would be a big, big mistake.
While Henry's idea of a questionnaire is superficially attractive, the reality is it can't capture the revenue the club is already driving away (no pun intended) through its current approach.
Very true but that wasn't the aim.
It was to prove or refute Granpa's statement.
Large has already said he will do it on his coach and the Trust say they will get involved. A co-ordinated approach with the same questions on every route would be more powerful.
My guess is that some would still come but others wouldn't but I have no idea of %.
While Henry's idea of a questionnaire is superficially attractive, the reality is it can't capture the revenue the club is already driving away (no pun intended) through its current approach.
Very true but that wasn't the aim.
It was to prove or refute Granpa's statement.
Large has already said he will do it on his coach and the Trust say they will get involved. A co-ordinated approach with the same questions on every route would be more powerful.
My guess is that some would still come but others wouldn't but I have no idea of %.
Accepted and it's a good idea, which I support. A petition would be sensible too. Need to bear in mind, though, that the way things are going there is likely to be a big drop-off in ST sales regardless.
I would say, however, that you have presumably never been on a Valley Express coach and to my knowledge neither have the people responsible for the service at the club, which is one reason why they don't understand it. Anyone who has will appreciate how unnecessary this exercise is and people like Sue Townsend can speak with authority on it, but the club does not want to hear from her, just as Katrien made clear to me that she did not want the detailed business case set out. She just retreats into the mantra that the coaches mustn't lose money, which understandably is what the staff have been trotting out since last summer.
If VEX was scraped then Friday night games are dead in the water, as public transport is non-existent after10pm to the outreaches of East Kent and Sussex as fans from those areas will not be replaced by locals. I wish there was a home game this Saturday as all this negativity is making me depressed about the future of this club. I am seriously think of giving my ST to my Gran Daughter for the next couple of home games and unless things improve both on and off the pitch then will not be renewing my ST.
Comments
A two tier new VIP also seems promising.
I know people will mock the bovril comments, and it is funny, but the rest is sensible if not sexy stuff.
That's what the FF is about though. Fans and staff interacting, discussing issues raised by other fans and suggesting improvements.
If people expected 12 angry men or the wolf of wall St then they had the wrong idea in the first place.
Soon to be followed by closing the turnstyles ?
7. Friday Night Football
CL said that traffic on a Friday night makes football prohibitive. KM said that Saturday can be difficult and busy for some people too. Just suggested as a trial.
BR said trust has done a survey. Results to be published shortly.
Saturday is one of the few protected football days. Will always be travel issues. Most fans come from SE London and Medway.
Millwall crowds for recent Friday night games were lower than usual. Children less likely to attend on a Friday night. Tranmere tried Friday night games and got no floating support from Liverpool or Everton.
I'm afraid if you cannot see beyond the coaches themselves breaking even - and I have had this conversation with KM without success - then you will destroy it. The club is congratulating itself on running fewer coaches, but it is actually worse off as a consequence.
In addition, extra coaches are more likely to carry people who wouldn't otherwise attend, so the multiplier effect on revenue increases with the subsidy.
This (edit: This thread, in fact) is a prime example of why Roland has picked the ideal club for his 'experiment'
If Valley Express is decimated because on one measure it is loss making then you might as well close down the club.
It is a little worrying to me that the club didn't seem to accept the loss leader aspect for VEX (is that the right acronym?), not sure what other Forum members thought of that? They want it to lose less money for sure which is not unreasonable, but I didn't see much evidence of it being part of a joined up approach, more as a separate business unit. I'm not in a position however to know how the numbers stack up, perhaps Airman can help with that at a later date? As for Friday night football the club seem to want to press ahead with a couple of games a year, regardless - I guess the attendance will speak for itself.
Not doubting you but a questionnaire the next time the coach runs asking "if Valley express is cancelled are you more/same/less likely to buy a season ticket/attend games would be some concrete evidence to back up what people are saying.
It could then to presented to the Club a, or better before, the next Fans Forum meeting.
I have already stated that I will not go to another Charlton first team game until these Belgians have left the building. I have not taken this decision lightly and it is hurting me greatly, but I have been supporting us for over fifty years and I have never felt this badly about the way our club is going. We have had numerous bad times over the years, moving to Selhurst and also being within minutes of going out of business. But I always felt that the heart and soul of Charlton was still intact. I don't feel that anymore. The final straw was Meira's statement, which I thought was a bare faced lie.
I don't think they'll scrap it but I wouldn't be surprised if they increase prices so that that equation breaks even or makes a profit which doesn't sound like a great idea.
Sorry not convinced.
If the club understood the people who travel and why, it would be a very brave assumption that more than 80 per cent of them would continue without Valley Express.
However, a more likely outcome, especially in view of the furore it would otherwise create among season-ticket holders, is that they would remove some but not all routes. We have cut routes before, as we dropped down the divisions, because numbers changed, but what is left now is a core than ran successfully in League One.
The focus on reducing losses creates another problem, however, in that the club is excessively cautious about putting on more than the absolute minimum number of coaches, which removes any capacity for growth and refreshing the existing user base in the more popular areas. In other words, the main reason VEX was established, to generate additional support and therefore revenue, has been lost.
Clearly there is a balance to be struck, but over eight years we consistently ran at 90 per cent loading or more, and if we could operate viably in League One then there was and is no problem doing so in the Championship.
Ratcheting up the fare is also counter-productive if it leads to more empty seats.
While Henry's idea of a questionnaire is superficially attractive, the reality is it can't capture the revenue the club is already driving away (no pun intended) through its current approach.
I'm happy to wander down our coach to ask the question for a survey, or hand them out and then collect them in, whatever, but ceasing Valley Express would be a big, big mistake.
It was to prove or refute Granpa's statement.
Large has already said he will do it on his coach and the Trust say they will get involved. A co-ordinated approach with the same questions on every route would be more powerful.
My guess is that some would still come but others wouldn't but I have no idea of %.
I would say, however, that you have presumably never been on a Valley Express coach and to my knowledge neither have the people responsible for the service at the club, which is one reason why they don't understand it. Anyone who has will appreciate how unnecessary this exercise is and people like Sue Townsend can speak with authority on it, but the club does not want to hear from her, just as Katrien made clear to me that she did not want the detailed business case set out. She just retreats into the mantra that the coaches mustn't lose money, which understandably is what the staff have been trotting out since last summer.