I was going to joke, that with the club's lack of joined up thinking, next we'll be getting rid of the players, to reduce costs. I then realised that the club are in fact way ahead of me -(
While Henry's idea of a questionnaire is superficially attractive, the reality is it can't capture the revenue the club is already driving away (no pun intended) through its current approach.
Very true but that wasn't the aim.
It was to prove or refute Granpa's statement.
Large has already said he will do it on his coach and the Trust say they will get involved. A co-ordinated approach with the same questions on every route would be more powerful.
My guess is that some would still come but others wouldn't but I have no idea of %.
Accepted and it's a good idea, which I support. A petition would be sensible too. I would say, however, that you have presumably never been on a Valley Express coach and to my knowledge neither have the people responsible for the service at the club, which is one reason why they don't understand it. Anyone who has will appreciate how unnecessary this exercise is and people like Sue Townsend can speak with authority on it, but the club does not want to hear from her, just as Katrien made clear to me that she did not want the detailed business case set out.
No, never been on VE as no need living in Bromley.
But I've always supported in as you know in T40k meetings and in board meetings when it was mentioned.
OK, Let's get busy.
The Save Valley Express campaign starts here.
So we need volunteers to:
- Start a petition
- Design a proper questionnaire
- To collect signatures for the petion
- To give out and collect questionnaires
- To compile the questionnaires into a report.
And though I'm not a fan of the Trust yes they should be involved but not exclusively.
While Henry's idea of a questionnaire is superficially attractive, the reality is it can't capture the revenue the club is already driving away (no pun intended) through its current approach.
Very true but that wasn't the aim.
It was to prove or refute Granpa's statement.
Large has already said he will do it on his coach and the Trust say they will get involved. A co-ordinated approach with the same questions on every route would be more powerful.
My guess is that some would still come but others wouldn't but I have no idea of %.
Accepted and it's a good idea, which I support. A petition would be sensible too. I would say, however, that you have presumably never been on a Valley Express coach and to my knowledge neither have the people responsible for the service at the club, which is one reason why they don't understand it. Anyone who has will appreciate how unnecessary this exercise is and people like Sue Townsend can speak with authority on it, but the club does not want to hear from her, just as Katrien made clear to me that she did not want the detailed business case set out.
No, never been on VE as no need living in Bromley.
But I've always supported in as you know in T40k meetings and in board meetings when it was mentioned.
OK, Let's get busy.
The Save Valley Express campaign starts here.
So we need volunteers to:
- Start a petition
- Design a proper questionnaire
- To collect signatures for the petion
- To give out and collect questionnaires
- To compile the questionnaires into a report.
And though I'm not a fan of the Trust yes they should be involved but not exclusively.
The key people are the stewards, who are all supporters.
Never been on VE but support the idea. Do they run every home game or just Saturdays? If only Saturdays what the impact on attendances against mid week games? Could the reason for trying Friday night games be saving money on VE and the hope of pick up more Sky games?
I probably don't get it and will be educated, but if a coach only picks up 15 fans on average and in total they have paid say £4k in season tickets and a coach probably costs £8k for the season, isn't it as if the club were giving away 15 season tickets? What are they losing by giving up £4k in revenue and £8k in expenditure, isn't it a net saving of £4k. If you had a rotating number of different fans making up 15 every week it closes the gap, but I doubt if this actually happens.
So is it right to be hard on the club if these loss making coaches are cancelled? I used to use the Hants/Surrey one which has been dropped so not happy at all, but I rather thought I understood why it was happening and thought it wrong if I was being subsidised.
Is it worth considering having different prices dependant upon distance of place of joining the coach to the Valley? This would not necessarily have to be complicated, there could be just a few price bands. Would people travelling further object to paying slightly more than those travelling short distances?
Would wealthier fans pay a recommended (break even) fare whilst others paid the existing fare?
There may be good reasons against the above, but it is perhaps worth considering as the more the service seems viable the more likely it is to be retained.
Playing devil's advocate why are you sure? Not doubting you but a questionnaire the next time the coach runs asking "if Valley express is cancelled are you more/same/less likely to buy a season ticket/attend games would be some concrete evidence to back up what people are saying. It could then to presented to the Club a, or better before, the next Fans Forum meeting
Hi Henry, yes there was obviously an element of guesstimating from me, my confidence relates to the number of very senior citizens on Sue Townsends Coach, me included of course. I was interested to see that Large Addick seemed to portray a similar feeling to mine. If you consider my experience currently, I drive 10 minutes to the Bus Stop and park safely, before buying a paper to read plus whatever before boarding the Coach and meeting a lot of friends. I am then driven to the Ground, dropped off by the tunnel, with no traffic or parking worries. Now ask me to drive from West Malling, struggle to park the car, quite likely face a long walk, uphill in one direction to the Ground. I suspect my answer would be no thanks, I certainly won't buy my season ticket, after all Roland is making it very easy to get a ticket if I want one. Roland should perhaps note that at that time I will have the option of choosing a premiership game just up the road very soon.
I am however going to take Razil up on his offer with thanks, perhaps we can organise printing the questionnaire which we can hand in to the Reception addressed to 'someone/anyone who actually cares about the supporters'.
I probably don't get it and will be educated, but if a coach only picks up 15 fans on average and in total they have paid say £4k in season tickets and a coach probably costs £8k for the season, isn't it as if the club were giving away 15 season tickets? What are they losing by giving up £4k in revenue and £8k in expenditure, isn't it a net saving of £4k. If you had a rotating number of different fans making up 15 every week it closes the gap, but I doubt if this actually happens.
So is it right to be hard on the club if these loss making coaches are cancelled? I used to use the Hants/Surrey one which has been dropped so not happy at all, but I rather thought I understood why it was happening and thought it wrong if I was being subsidised.
None of the coaches runs with only 15 passengers on board as far as I'm aware. I can only speak about the Hastings coach but we never have less than 30 on board and if we are ever close to that it's normally a night game and some of those not attending are effectively doing so because they have a VE season ticket anyway. I'm not aware of the break even figure for a coach.
Is it worth considering having different prices dependant upon distance of place of joining the coach to the Valley? This would not necessarily have to be complicated, there could be just a few price bands. Would people travelling further object to paying slightly more than those travelling short distances?
Would wealthier fans pay a recommended (break even) fare whilst others paid the existing fare?
There may be good reasons against the above, but it is perhaps worth considering as the more the service seems viable the more likely it is to be retained.
the problem with that is if you say to those getting on at Bexhill/Hastings that they will now be paying say £12 and those getting on at Bexley £5 then yes I think those travelling the greater distance would object. I mean, if I were living in Bexley I could practically walk to The Valley.
I probably don't get it and will be educated, but if a coach only picks up 15 fans on average and in total they have paid say £4k in season tickets and a coach probably costs £8k for the season, isn't it as if the club were giving away 15 season tickets? What are they losing by giving up £4k in revenue and £8k in expenditure, isn't it a net saving of £4k. If you had a rotating number of different fans making up 15 every week it closes the gap, but I doubt if this actually happens.
So is it right to be hard on the club if these loss making coaches are cancelled? I used to use the Hants/Surrey one which has been dropped so not happy at all, but I rather thought I understood why it was happening and thought it wrong if I was being subsidised.
The Hants coach ceased to make financial sense as the team's fortunes declined so we dropped it, together with Essex, the A25 and the Meopham and Longfield one. However, all the remaining routes have operated successfully in League One, so if they cannot now survive in the Championship I suggest the club is doing something wrong.
In addition, must of the remaining routes overlap with others, so there is potential to pick up slack from one on another. This is what we spent a lot of time planning and more coaches also makes for fewer pick-ups and a better journey, whereas diversions and extra pick-ups can antagonise people.
Nobody would argue that a coach averaging 15 people should be subsidised. However, a coach with 35 people on it will yield 35 x 23 x £8.50 in fares, give or take the discount for season pass holders. That's £6842.50 over the season. If the coach hire is £450 per match that's £10,350 - a shortfall of £3,500 in round numbers.
Divided by 805 journeys, that's £4.35 subsidy per passenger (and this is a worst case scenario based on what I believe is the weakest route). If the average yield per spectator at the stadium is £15 then you'd only need 10 out of 35 people to be dependent on that coach running to attend to make it viable to operate. And most routes operating now will have much better numbers than that and always have had.
Never been on VE but support the idea. Do they run every home game or just Saturdays? If only Saturdays what the impact on attendances against mid week games? Could the reason for trying Friday night games be saving money on VE and the hope of pick up more Sky games?
Sky/BT will be showing EPL games on Friday nights as part of the next round of biding for live games.
Is it worth considering having different prices dependant upon distance of place of joining the coach to the Valley? This would not necessarily have to be complicated, there could be just a few price bands. Would people travelling further object to paying slightly more than those travelling short distances?
Would wealthier fans pay a recommended (break even) fare whilst others paid the existing fare?
There may be good reasons against the above, but it is perhaps worth considering as the more the service seems viable the more likely it is to be retained.
At a FF meeting during The Spivs ownership, Ben Kensell advised that there WOULD be a pricing structure based on the length of VEX journeys for the following season.
This matter was not raised again unless my memory fails me and of course Norwich's gain was Charlton's loss and the rest is history.
I'm not certain that this was a bad idea and could be the way to prevent the losses that Katrien has implied are taking place. After all, those travelling by train from Sussex/East Kent surely expect to pay more for rail travel than those living in, to take Large's example, Bexley. However, I am not a VEX user at present but could well be in the future.....
I do think that a petition/questionnaire is a good idea though as there must be thousands of Addicks that are unaware of the precarious nature of VEX and the implications should the service be reduced/stopped altogether in the future.
Finally, SheffieldReds' suggestion that wealthier fans might pay a premium is a non starter for obvious reasons. I can't see fans proffering their bank statements for perusal before they're identified as "poor", " comfortably off" ,"stinking rich" or " should be asked to buy a player"....:-)
Any ideas behind the push for Friday football? Couldn't think of a worse time for many
Kids go to bed because they have a game in the morning. Geezers and geezettes go out. The rest of us wind down from the working week.
I am just wondering what the suggested advantages are. Saturday is football day, why would you voluntarily change a Saturday game to a Friday? seems to have been a failure at other clubs who have tried this because fans expect football on a Saturday and a lot of families who are bringing kids have a game in the morning followed by watching football. I wouldn't take a kid under 16 to a Friday night game if they had a ten o clock kick off the next day. I think that's quite relevant to a large number of supporters, Friday night football affects Saturday morning football plans.
Is it worth considering having different prices dependant upon distance of place of joining the coach to the Valley? This would not necessarily have to be complicated, there could be just a few price bands. Would people travelling further object to paying slightly more than those travelling short distances?
Would wealthier fans pay a recommended (break even) fare whilst others paid the existing fare?
There may be good reasons against the above, but it is perhaps worth considering as the more the service seems viable the more likely it is to be retained.
At a FF meeting during The Spivs ownership, Ben Kensell advised that there WOULD be a pricing structure based on the length of VEX journeys for the following season.
This matter was not raised again unless my memory fails me and of course Norwich's gain was Charlton's loss and the rest is history.
I'm not certain that this was a bad idea and could be the way to prevent the losses that Katrien has implied are taking place. After all, those travelling by train from Sussex/East Kent surely expect to pay more for rail travel than those living in, to take Large's example, Bexley. However, I am not a VEX user at present but could well be in the future.....
I do think that a petition/questionnaire is a good idea though as there must be thousands of Addicks that are unaware of the precarious nature of VEX and the implications should the service be reduced/stopped altogether in the future.
Finally, SheffieldReds' suggestion that wealthier fans might pay a premium is a non starter for obvious reasons. I can't see fans proffering their bank statements for perusal before they're identified as "poor", " comfortably off" ,"stinking rich" or " should be asked to buy a player"....:-)
I don't think it wouid make much difference, because in reality most fans travel from the coast or not far from it, Maidstone and Tonbridge/Tunbridge Wells being the main exceptions. In fact one of the more problematic routes is Medway, which would be cheaper by distance. I think there is one bloke who gets on at Bexley, but the cost of the pick-up is nil as virtually every coach goes past the stop.
The other thing is that it's not about a "fair" price, it's about optimising the total revenue for the coaches and tickets based on what fare people will pay. For example, it might well be reasonable to charge £15 from the coast in terms of alternatives, but if you lose half the passengers by doing so it's counter-productive.
If you are happy to pay £8.50 from Bexley, then I don't see why that should be reduced.
If it went up to £9 next season, then you'd have to be a right tight wad to kick up a fuss over 50p.
If you're coming from say Hastings, I don't see why you shouldn't be paying say £12.
These are "off the top of my head" and are not meant to cause offence/start a row.
Before the official launch of VEX in 2004 we trialled it round the East Kent coast from Deal to Whitstable with free travel. We quickly had 250 plus travelling, the majority of whom were not season-ticket holders or existing fans. When we introduced a fare of a fiver in January, which was hardly punitive, half of them disappeared straight away.
The problem with £12 is that it becomes viable for people to organise a car. So what, you might say, because that shows they don't need VEX in the first place. However, it is them travelling on the coach that makes the overall numbers viable for those who have no alternative and provides the facility for new fans who otherwise wouldn't think to go.
£12 would become prohibitive for a) a father who travels with a child as that is an increase of £3.50 each, so £7 for the Dad to find extra. b) the great majority who are OAP's and c) would hardly entice new fans. Anything above a tenner and in my opinion you would start getting drop outs.
£12 would become prohibitive for a) a father who travels with a child as that is an increase of £3.50 each, so £7 for the Dad to find extra. b) the great majority who are OAP's and c) would hardly entice new fans. Anything above a tenner and in my opinion you would start getting drop outs.
Having people drop out due to a price increase would be a shame. If The club decides it can no longer subsidise the coach travel due to making a loss then a solutuion needs to be found.
I think a questionnaire from all People Travelling in on valley express might be a good starting point.
A questionnaire of the current users is going to be limited in its value though as everyone will say that they'd stop attending games if prices went up or services changed.
Our VE is largely comprised OAP's. The numbers have already dwindled quite a lot, but of those remaining, I think most will continue with the habit, especially those that can afford to.
If there was a coach from where/near to where I live and cost less than £23, I'd happily pay that rather than suffer what both SW & SE trains inflict on me. Having said that I'm still not convinced to renew my ST next season either.
Comments
I then realised that the club are in fact way ahead of me -(
But I've always supported in as you know in T40k meetings and in board meetings when it was mentioned.
OK, Let's get busy.
The Save Valley Express campaign starts here.
So we need volunteers to:
- Start a petition
- Design a proper questionnaire
- To collect signatures for the petion
- To give out and collect questionnaires
- To compile the questionnaires into a report.
And though I'm not a fan of the Trust yes they should be involved but not exclusively.
See Belbin's Shaper and plant roles for more information : - )
What's the difference in price between the current price and the price KM believes would have to be charged for the coach to break even?
Do we charge a flat fee irrespective of place of departure?
So is it right to be hard on the club if these loss making coaches are cancelled? I used to use the Hants/Surrey one which has been dropped so not happy at all, but I rather thought I understood why it was happening and thought it wrong if I was being subsidised.
Is it worth considering having different prices dependant upon distance of place of joining the coach to the Valley? This would not necessarily have to be complicated, there could be just a few price bands. Would people travelling further object to paying slightly more than those travelling short distances?
Would wealthier fans pay a recommended (break even) fare whilst others paid the existing fare?
There may be good reasons against the above, but it is perhaps worth considering as the more the service seems viable the more likely it is to be retained.
Not doubting you but a questionnaire the next time the coach runs asking "if Valley express is cancelled are you more/same/less likely to buy a season ticket/attend games would be some concrete evidence to back up what people are saying.
It could then to presented to the Club a, or better before, the next Fans Forum meeting
Hi Henry, yes there was obviously an element of guesstimating from me, my confidence relates to the number of very senior citizens on Sue Townsends Coach, me included of course. I was interested to see that Large Addick seemed to portray a similar feeling to mine. If you consider my experience currently, I drive 10 minutes to the Bus Stop and park safely, before buying a paper to read plus whatever before boarding the Coach and meeting a lot of friends. I am then driven to the Ground, dropped off by the tunnel, with no traffic or parking worries. Now ask me to drive from West Malling, struggle to park the car, quite likely face a long walk, uphill in one direction to the Ground. I suspect my answer would be no thanks, I certainly won't buy my season ticket, after all Roland is making it very easy to get a ticket if I want one. Roland should perhaps note that at that time I will have the option of choosing a premiership game just up the road very soon.
I am however going to take Razil up on his offer with thanks, perhaps we can organise printing the questionnaire which we can hand in to the Reception addressed to 'someone/anyone who actually cares about the supporters'.
the problem with that is if you say to those getting on at Bexhill/Hastings that they will now be paying say £12 and those getting on at Bexley £5 then yes I think those travelling the greater distance would object. I mean, if I were living in Bexley I could practically walk to The Valley.
http://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/66054/the-question-of-valley-express#latest
In addition, must of the remaining routes overlap with others, so there is potential to pick up slack from one on another. This is what we spent a lot of time planning and more coaches also makes for fewer pick-ups and a better journey, whereas diversions and extra pick-ups can antagonise people.
Nobody would argue that a coach averaging 15 people should be subsidised. However, a coach with 35 people on it will yield 35 x 23 x £8.50 in fares, give or take the discount for season pass holders. That's £6842.50 over the season. If the coach hire is £450 per match that's £10,350 - a shortfall of £3,500 in round numbers.
Divided by 805 journeys, that's £4.35 subsidy per passenger (and this is a worst case scenario based on what I believe is the weakest route). If the average yield per spectator at the stadium is £15 then you'd only need 10 out of 35 people to be dependent on that coach running to attend to make it viable to operate. And most routes operating now will have much better numbers than that and always have had.
Sky/BT will be showing EPL games on Friday nights as part of the next round of biding for live games.
Even better reason to avoid Friday and have Saturday KO
This matter was not raised again unless my memory fails me and of course Norwich's gain was Charlton's loss and the rest is history.
I'm not certain that this was a bad idea and could be the way to prevent the losses that Katrien has implied are taking place. After all, those travelling by train from Sussex/East Kent surely expect to pay more for rail travel than those living in, to take Large's example, Bexley. However, I am not a VEX user at present but could well be in the future.....
I do think that a petition/questionnaire is a good idea though as there must be thousands of Addicks that are unaware of the precarious nature of VEX and the implications should the service be reduced/stopped altogether in the future.
Finally, SheffieldReds' suggestion that wealthier fans might pay a premium is a non starter for obvious reasons. I can't see fans proffering their bank statements for perusal before they're identified as "poor", " comfortably off" ,"stinking rich" or " should be asked to buy a player"....:-)
Kids go to bed because they have a game in the morning.
Geezers and geezettes go out.
The rest of us wind down from the working week.
I am just wondering what the suggested advantages are. Saturday is football day, why would you voluntarily change a Saturday game to a Friday? seems to have been a failure at other clubs who have tried this because fans expect football on a Saturday and a lot of families who are bringing kids have a game in the morning followed by watching football. I wouldn't take a kid under 16 to a Friday night game if they had a ten o clock kick off the next day. I think that's quite relevant to a large number of supporters, Friday night football affects Saturday morning football plans.
The other thing is that it's not about a "fair" price, it's about optimising the total revenue for the coaches and tickets based on what fare people will pay. For example, it might well be reasonable to charge £15 from the coast in terms of alternatives, but if you lose half the passengers by doing so it's counter-productive.
If it went up to £9 next season, then you'd have to be a right tight wad to kick up a fuss over 50p.
If you're coming from say Hastings, I don't see why you shouldn't be paying say £12.
These are "off the top of my head" and are not meant to cause offence/start a row.
The problem with £12 is that it becomes viable for people to organise a car. So what, you might say, because that shows they don't need VEX in the first place. However, it is them travelling on the coach that makes the overall numbers viable for those who have no alternative and provides the facility for new fans who otherwise wouldn't think to go.
I think a questionnaire from all People Travelling in on valley express might be a good starting point.
A questionnaire of the current users is going to be limited in its value though as everyone will say that they'd stop attending games if prices went up or services changed.
Turkeys don't vote for Christmas.