Jimmy Stone on twitter...
Comments
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Jimenez and Slater got plenty of abuse on here. One of the main criticisms was the poor communication and that definitely hasn't improved.LargeAddick said:I find it amusing that everyone is up in arms about the way RD is doing things, and I'm not happy with some of them myself, but where was everyone when the Two Spiv's were running the show? Under them we lost valued staff and directors in disgraceful circumstances (RE,PV,SK), the pitch was a disgrace, investment in the team had dried up, the stadium was looking shabby and they had no money, to the extent that local small businesses supplying the Club were in extreme financial difficulties and in the case I know of very close to laying off staff because of bills being unpaid. Are things, in general, worse now? I think not.
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There's a big difference, though. After what happened in 2012 - and let's face it there was no problem until the summer of that year when the money ran out - the spivs were always going to run into a brick wall sooner or later. There were a number of us warning that things were badly wrong, but Powell turned things round on the pitch in 2013 and by then they were always going to have to sell. It was only a question of when. Large numbers of people wanted them to sell because it was clearly undermining the squad and risking relegation, but however imperfectly the aims of fans and owners were ultimately aligned - both parties wanted the owners out.LargeAddick said:I find it amusing that everyone is up in arms about the way RD is doing things, and I'm not happy with some of them myself, but where was everyone when the Two Spiv's were running the show? Under them we lost valued staff and directors in disgraceful circumstances (RE,PV,SK), the pitch was a disgrace, investment in the team had dried up, the stadium was looking shabby and they had no money, to the extent that local small businesses supplying the Club were in extreme financial difficulties and in the case I know of very close to laying off staff because of bills being unpaid. Are things, in general, worse now? I think not.
What Duchatelet is about nobody really knows. In some respects he is better than the spivs, on others much worse because he wants to make the decisions, which they mostly didn't. But because of his wealth he can carry on regardless of the damage he is doing, so in this case the intentions of fans and owner are not aligned. Hence the need to do something about it. That could be to persuade Duchatelet that a more rational and businesslike approach is in his own interest. I don't hold out much hope of that happening, but it could if he chose.
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To be fair, the vast majority of the flack he is getting is for things that he has presided over. Of course he can't be blamed for the disillusionment of the fans prior to when he took over, but he can be blamed for perpetuating it and perhaps even making it worse.LargeAddick said:
and that is the crux of the matter. long term disillusionment that RD is unfairly taking ALL the flack forWestCountryAddick said:Personally I think the reason many are so hacked off now is because the uncertainty has been going on for a VERY long time. Duchatelet is getting the brunt of the blame now of course, but there were already rumblings back when TJ & Slater were in charge.
Personally I think the reason many are so hacked off now is because the uncertainty has been going on for a VERY long time. Duchatelet is getting the brunt of the blame now of course, but there were already rumblings back when TJ & Slater were in charge. The previous administration were lucky that they had a distraction, Chris Powell. Many people were loathe to criticise with someone so highly regarded in charge of the team.LargeAddick said:I find it amusing that everyone is up in arms about the way RD is doing things, and I'm not happy with some of them myself, but where was everyone when the Two Spiv's were running the show? Under them we lost valued staff and directors in disgraceful circumstances (RE,PV,SK), the pitch was a disgrace, investment in the team had dried up, the stadium was looking shabby and they had no money, to the extent that local small businesses supplying the Club were in extreme financial difficulties and in the case I know of very close to laying off staff because of bills being unpaid. Are things, in general, worse now? I think not.
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Just to be clear, I do mind, I hate whats happening to us at the moment.AFKABartram said:Very interesting post Imnot.
I've given up trying to explain to those with opposite views to me why I don't like my club, Charlton Athletic, being part of a conglomerate model.
Surely the fact we are talking about a model than a football club should be enough to understand why some don't like it, even if you yourself don't mind, don't care.
I think all of us are trying to understand what is going on, what the motivation is. but in the end we are all guessing and some of us are slanting our guesses based on our own preferences. I'm looking for the profit motive. Others are pointing at his politics and looking for social motives. Most are trying to work it out from a fans perspective with football motives. Unfortunately the only one with a clear idea of his motives is RD and he doesn't seem to be telling.
I didn't realise SL's finances were so bad, so thanks Prague for that, the other interesting thing in his post was that SL fans are assuming we are the jewel in the crown, whereas we all assume its SL. I'm sure other fans of other network clubs all point in different directions as well as to where the focus is.
My view is that he's trying to make money and I think he's trying to do so using what he has control of, i.e. the farm model. Grow your own or buy cheap, nurture then sell for a profit. Thats what the Pozzis are doing and even what Chelsea and some of the other big clubs are doing. For this to work, success on the pitch helps, but its not the be all and end all. St Truden were relegated under RD's (wifes) control and there is no evidence that he threw money at that to get it resolved, though it looks like they will be promoted this season.
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Not sure its about clubs actually making a profit in the prem., its just whether Roly could make a profit on us!WestCountryAddick said:
Indeed. If we take the published figures for 2012/13 only 8 clubs in the Premier League made a profit. Of those clubs, not a single one of them was a club that had just been promoted. They were all clubs that had either consolidated in the the Prem or were already well established clubs. A promotion push costs money. Surviving in the Premier League costs money. If you can get the promotion then survive, it's possible to make a decent profit (Swansea are a great example of this ), but you have to put the money in first (or get very lucky and sneak up via the play-offs).Henry Irving said:
No evidence of that eitherEssex_Al said:
The premiership is his only outlet if he wants to sell us at a profit!
Just for context, even Southampton, have failed to make a profit in the Premier League despite their youth system doing rather well. When the 2013/14 figures are released we might see that has changed, but they made losses of around £7m during the 12/13 season and £12m losses the season before.0 -
Well said Large, I thought I was treading water on my own last night and this morning, I'm glad someone else has a sense of perspective!LargeAddick said:I find it amusing that everyone is up in arms about the way RD is doing things, and I'm not happy with some of them myself, but where was everyone when the Two Spiv's were running the show? Under them we lost valued staff and directors in disgraceful circumstances (RE,PV,SK), the pitch was a disgrace, investment in the team had dried up, the stadium was looking shabby and they had no money, to the extent that local small businesses supplying the Club were in extreme financial difficulties and in the case I know of very close to laying off staff because of bills being unpaid. Are things, in general, worse now? I think not.
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Fair point. But that would require him to sell the minute we get there, which on current evidence, may not be for some time...!Essex_Al said:
Not sure its about clubs actually making a profit in the prem., its just whether Roly could make a profit on us!WestCountryAddick said:
Indeed. If we take the published figures for 2012/13 only 8 clubs in the Premier League made a profit. Of those clubs, not a single one of them was a club that had just been promoted. They were all clubs that had either consolidated in the the Prem or were already well established clubs. A promotion push costs money. Surviving in the Premier League costs money. If you can get the promotion then survive, it's possible to make a decent profit (Swansea are a great example of this ), but you have to put the money in first (or get very lucky and sneak up via the play-offs).Henry Irving said:
No evidence of that eitherEssex_Al said:
The premiership is his only outlet if he wants to sell us at a profit!
Just for context, even Southampton, have failed to make a profit in the Premier League despite their youth system doing rather well. When the 2013/14 figures are released we might see that has changed, but they made losses of around £7m during the 12/13 season and £12m losses the season before.0 -
Perspective or opinion Al.Essex_Al said:
Well said Large, I thought I was treading water on my own last night and this morning, I'm glad someone else has a sense of perspective!LargeAddick said:I find it amusing that everyone is up in arms about the way RD is doing things, and I'm not happy with some of them myself, but where was everyone when the Two Spiv's were running the show? Under them we lost valued staff and directors in disgraceful circumstances (RE,PV,SK), the pitch was a disgrace, investment in the team had dried up, the stadium was looking shabby and they had no money, to the extent that local small businesses supplying the Club were in extreme financial difficulties and in the case I know of very close to laying off staff because of bills being unpaid. Are things, in general, worse now? I think not.
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Agreed we are all baffled - perhaps Luzon gets a loan striker?PragueAddick said:
To be clear, you will not find those words were used by me or any other member of the Trust board on here, still less in its public announcements. In fact the Trust has led the way with articles which show how it is impossible to be profitable in the Championship with a competitive squad. At the same time @seriously_red, bless him, has argued consistently that the route to becoming profitable is to invest sufficiently to have a squad at least capable of a play off place. Seriously_red and his former colleagues on the Trust board are now finally united in their complete bafflement of what the business plan actually is, and we are seeking an explanation from RD as to what it is, so that we can decide whether it is likely to secure the long term future of Charlton Athletic Football Club. Nothing more, nothing less ,as far as the Supporters Trust is concerned.To_Be_Franck said:
Like the money put in to a club allegedly on the brink of admin by someone ripping the heart out of the very club he saved.... convenient scapegoat for not spending above the club's means in the overpriced January transfer windowPragueAddick said:
Thank heavens for you Len. I was starting to think that I was the only one in the world who thought that.LenGlover said:Harriott actually did well to get to the ball at all. He was at full stretch.
But in the search for a convenient scapegoat, the truth is usually an early victim.
However, I would like to clarify a misunderstanding...
Getting to and staying in the top eight increases the value of the club but it will almost certainly increase losses - on amortised transfer fees of the players that need to be acquired to improve our attack and the actual player contracts.
What I think has annoyed many fans is that, having acquired Gudmundsson, Vetokele and the rest it needs more talent. Normally on a run such as ours the board do two things: sack the coach and bring in additional talent.
Now Duchatelet didn't do that last March and Riga proved that the squad was good enough to stay up. The difference is that then there was a core of players who had played together for three years AND while Powell had six wins (same as Peeters) they were roughly one a month.
Our excellent start has shown fans where we could be in a teasing fashion followed by six points from 12 and no signs of a win.
My guess is that this is the reason for detachment stated by so many - Duchatelet isn't showing any inclination to reverse the trend and is in fact saying nothing.
Win or lose, promoted or relegated, every club in the land except CAFC manages expectations through a many tiered set of communications to the media, sponsors and fans, I.e. The people who pay the bills.
The rumour was that Jiminez tried to convince Cash that CAFC needs to lose £10m a year to compete at the top of the Championship. I am no expert and wouldn't disagree. An additional £2m in player wages and £2m in transfer fee amortisation might take us into the top eight. Then again maybe it wouldn't for there are plenty of clubs losing £10m + who are in the bottom half of the table.
And to complete the argument, the logic is that even if you fail to secure promotion, you can recoup some money because your squad is sought after. I understand that had we lost to Sunderland in '98 there was a £3m offer from Spurs for Rufus.
As for Duchatelet's overall strategy for Staprix and CAFC? It's not clear he has one! As I have posted before, Mintzberg was famous for stating one can infer strategy from a series of decisions - basically you can see a pattern that can then be fitted into a narrative with some assumptions - in essence one gan look at the gaps in understanding and convert that into questions for the executive.
So I've done that and decanted into a single solitary question:
WTF?!
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The only thing that is FACT in all this nonsense is there is no FACTUAL evidence that either side of this debate is correct
i have no FACTS to say that those who want RD gone are wrong
And there are no FACTS to back up the RD ripping the soul from the club line or that he is in it for only financial gain
and so what if he is its his investment and the one thing that is obvious is that the man is not football orientated but is a driven and proven business man ,
AB has told you all that the club is losing money and that this is being bank rolled by RD it has to be or we would be close to going bust0 - Sponsored links:
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Seems a bit of a contradiction mate.nth london addick said:The only thing that is FACT in all this nonsense is there is no FACTUAL evidence that either side of this debate is correct
i have no FACTS to say that those who want RD gone are wrong
And there are no FACTS to back up the RD ripping the soul from the club line or that he is in it for only financial gain
and so what if he is its his investment and the one thing that is obvious is that the man is not football orientated but is a driven and proven business man ,
AB has told you all that the club is losing money and that this is being bank rolled by RD it has to be or we would be close to going bust0 -
You know, I've seen the the phrase 'ripping the soul from the club' used by more people who are against taking action, than by anyone who is pro action. It seems to have become a convenient little line to use to try belittle people's opinions on the subject.nth london addick said:The only thing that is FACT in all this nonsense is there is no FACTUAL evidence that either side of this debate is correct
i have no FACTS to say that those who want RD gone are wrong
And there are no FACTS to back up the RD ripping the soul from the club line or that he is in it for only financial gain
and so what if he is its his investment and the one thing that is obvious is that the man is not football orientated but is a driven and proven business man ,
AB has told you all that the club is losing money and that this is being bank rolled by RD it has to be or we would be close to going bust5 -
then you are not reading all the posts its the most common phrase used along with Dodgy Belgium imports1
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It may well be a contraroseandcrown said:
Seems a bit of a contradiction mate. </blockqoutenth london addick said:The only thing that is FACT in all this nonsense is there is no FACTUAL evidence that either side of this debate is correct
i have no FACTS to say that those who want RD gone are wrong
And there are no FACTS to back up the RD ripping the soul from the club line or that he is in it for only financial gain
and so what if he is its his investment and the one thing that is obvious is that the man is not football orientated but is a driven and proven business man ,
AB has told you all that the club is losing money and that this is being bank rolled by RD it has to be or we would be close to going bust
it may well be a contradiction but its not a fact no one knows , and until someone does find out then theres very little anyone can do about it1 -
nth london addick said:
It may well be a contra
I know i was being a bit picky mate.roseandcrown said:
Seems a bit of a contradiction mate.nth london addick said:The only thing that is FACT in all this nonsense is there is no FACTUAL evidence that either side of this debate is correct
i have no FACTS to say that those who want RD gone are wrong
And there are no FACTS to back up the RD ripping the soul from the club line or that he is in it for only financial gain
and so what if he is its his investment and the one thing that is obvious is that the man is not football orientated but is a driven and proven business man ,
AB has told you all that the club is losing money and that this is being bank rolled by RD it has to be or we would be close to going bust0 -
The shutdown of communications led to a small group of people getting together and forming a supporters Trust.LargeAddick said:I find it amusing that everyone is up in arms about the way RD is doing things, and I'm not happy with some of them myself, but where was everyone when the Two Spiv's were running the show? Under them we lost valued staff and directors in disgraceful circumstances (RE,PV,SK), the pitch was a disgrace, investment in the team had dried up, the stadium was looking shabby and they had no money, to the extent that local small businesses supplying the Club were in extreme financial difficulties and in the case I know of very close to laying off staff because of bills being unpaid. Are things, in general, worse now? I think not.
This Trust gained the confidence of some at the club and we received enough information to accurately appraise the situation which in turn suggested the following:
1) Slater and Jiminez would not sack Powell because that would destabilise the club
2) The irony of not investing in the squad in summer 2013 meant our league position suffered and the board had to adjust sale expectations
3) the Sky solidarity money comes in January - the old owners had to bail by then else they would have to find a way to fund the club for six months
The fact is that the symptoms of lack of finance in terms of pitch and squad problems landed on the new owner and his executive. She then proclaimed it was a "mess" and made a big song and dance about fixing it. Some bought this soundbite but didn't pay attention to two things:
1) the symptoms of this "mess" were easy and relatively cheap to mop up and also justified a re organisation of the management team. I say easy because they were solved in a few months and I say cheap relative to the purchase price of the club or a star player.
2) in Charlton's history a "mess" is really what Hulyer left when the club nearly fell over back in 1984. Buying the club without the ground and with no guarantee of maintenance nor improvements - a mistake imitated for our amusement by Goldberg and then Jordan at Palace.
I think what I'm trying to say is that many words and threads have been added to this site regarding Koc, Nego, Kermorgant, Powell and Meire. These are all fascinating but they are mere symptoms.
The question remains who is in effect the director of football, what is the strategy and ambition and who is responsible for execution.
Until there is someone established with the gravitas and technical ability AND authority then Liege and CAFC are going nowhere.
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I am reading all of the posts. I think you are only taking proper note of those that include the phrases that you seem to be looking for. The vast majority of concerned fans aren't saying these things, but you and others continue to bang on about it as if it's important. It isn't. What is important is that enough fans are fed up with the situation to want to come together to hopefully find a way to tackle the clubs complete lack of communication on important issues.nth london addick said:then you are not reading all the posts its the most common phrase used along with Dodgy Belgium imports
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Ha, ha Tonyroseandcrown said:
Perspective or opinion Al.Essex_Al said:
Well said Large, I thought I was treading water on my own last night and this morning, I'm glad someone else has a sense of perspective!LargeAddick said:I find it amusing that everyone is up in arms about the way RD is doing things, and I'm not happy with some of them myself, but where was everyone when the Two Spiv's were running the show? Under them we lost valued staff and directors in disgraceful circumstances (RE,PV,SK), the pitch was a disgrace, investment in the team had dried up, the stadium was looking shabby and they had no money, to the extent that local small businesses supplying the Club were in extreme financial difficulties and in the case I know of very close to laying off staff because of bills being unpaid. Are things, in general, worse now? I think not.
From your perspective, its an opinion, from my perspective its a sense of perspective (lol)2 -
And I have agreed communication is shit and that yes it needs resolution but it's been shit for nearly ten years,
Murray for years played to the crowd and even shit on those close to him
Where was the calls then, it's because Rd has a network of clubs and we are in it that's the issue and it won't go till he is no longer the owner
Unfortunately that won't change regardless as we are not really a great model of a club, our support has dwindled before his reign
There wasn't a long line of potential owners and it seems that until someone comes in willing to piss millions up the wall on players that come from recognised uk or top European leagues people won't be happy
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I'm not sure what you mean by the bolded part.nth london addick said:And I have agreed communication is shit and that yes it needs resolution but it's been shit for nearly ten years,
Murray for years played to the crowd and even shit on those close to him
Where was the calls then, it's because Rd has a network of clubs and we are in it that's the issue and it won't go till he is no longer the owner
Unfortunately that won't change regardless as we are not really a great model of a club, our support has dwindled before his reign
There wasn't a long line of potential owners and it seems that until someone comes in willing to piss millions up the wall on players that come from recognised uk or top European leagues people won't be happy
In terms of the underlined part, you may be right, there may be some people that will never be happy until that day, but that's not why so many are pissed off now.0 - Sponsored links:
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Imnot , this is sort of how I see it. Demoralising yes for me included but if its working for RD then that will be it I think. Sure I would love RD to throw the money about and get Charlton promoted but I doubt that will happen and maybe that's why so many are demoralised, he has the money but wont spend it? Unless of course its his way, well it is his money!Imnot Athletic said:
Who says the model isn't working? It depends on how you classify success and what your timeframe is.Henry Irving said:Good post.
It still doesn't make sense but relegation does hurt him as TV and other income drops so that means he needs to cover more costs and/or make more cuts but there is no more flash on the non-playing bone to cut.
I don't think he wants to lose, he wants to win "Roland doesn't do failure" as KM told us last year.
Only winning or perhaps success is a better word is different to him that for most of us.
As fans most of want to win games, cups and promotions.
For RD I think success is proving that his model works, that there is a different and better way to run football clubs.
The problem is that most people would, when the model isn't working, change the model but it seems Roland just keeps right on.
And it could be a workable model. Most of ingredients are there, the clubs, the spending money for young talent, the lack of emotional attachment to a particular club and not being worried if the fans love him or not. Workable for RD, not for us fans though.
What is missing is that for this model to work you need to be really, really good at talent spotting the best value players and at spotting the best coaches. Not just good but the best in the game.
And we're nowhere near that.
Its not working for Charlton, but its worked at Standard Liege. He got £20m plus from player sales there that provided the working capital for his spending spree that included purchasing us, Alcaron and Jenna plus, I think and investment (but not control) in a Dutch club. That didn't happen in a year. It took him a few years, a few coaches and I'm sure a turn over of players to get SL to that point and then he cashed in his chips. Now they have slid down the division, fans are up in arms etc but he's still quids in and I'm sure they will build a team again and 3 or 4 years down the line SL will be topping the division with a good young squad and I'm sure he'll cash in again.
Since he's joined us none of the decisions make sense from a football point of view, but financially he's doing very well out of Charlton. Sure we are making an operating loss and he's invested in a new pitch and some non network new players. However if you add back the costs of the network players (and staff), which were sunk costs as far as the network is concerned and offset the money we got for Kermy, Stephens and Poyet are we making an operating loss? and what really is the nett investment. Also, of the players brought in, have any of them really depreciated in value? Even Peter Parsley has been banging them in for St Truden so has maintained at least some of his value.
From a Charlton centric point of view this isn't working, we've not got the right players in the right positions but, by and large, the wrong players are all from the network (sunk costs). The non network players RD have paid real money for have been good, so maybe the current scouting is working. RD may have made mistakes in the past, player recruitment wise, but is wasn't al bad (see the £20m + i mentioned earlier). Moving them round the network just gets some use out of that investment until they either click or can be offloaded
Its demoralising for the fans and the players but to say its failing or the model needs changing I think you need to look at if from a whole network perspective where you could argue, financially at least, it is working.
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No one has asked for us to spunk money like Forest or Bournemouth. I'd just like players who are here to help the club move forward and scouts who know what a player needs to succeed in this division, and whether they'd fit in with our squad. As an added bonus it would be nice to know who handles player recruitment.10
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I don't see the Network as the problem. If Cafc can source players from the Academy, Network and open market then all good. Especially if the club can dispose of players quickly to other clubs. The issue is when known weaknesses are not addressed. Put another way Watford are top six with Vydra and Deeney!nth london addick said:And I have agreed communication is shit and that yes it needs resolution but it's been shit for nearly ten years,
Murray for years played to the crowd and even shit on those close to him
Where was the calls then, it's because Rd has a network of clubs and we are in it that's the issue and it won't go till he is no longer the owner
Unfortunately that won't change regardless as we are not really a great model of a club, our support has dwindled before his reign
There wasn't a long line of potential owners and it seems that until someone comes in willing to piss millions up the wall on players that come from recognised uk or top European leagues people won't be happy
The support dwindles every year we remain outside the FAPL
A football club is a simple beast really! Decent stadium and pitch, decent crowd and competitive squad is all that's required.
The reason I bang on about being in the top eight is that we should become more attractive to players, media, fans and the next owner to take up the "baton".
Nothing will change re the fans but the next owner might be serious about trying for promotion?1 -
People don't want to be part of RDs network they don't like it they are unsure of it and it is an unknown quantity, will it work won't it, they don't want cafc to be second or third as his priority, I am in that camp in only want cafc to be the most important team in that model if we are going to have to be in it
Communication is not the only issue being raised it is one of them and the only one that is factual from what I can see, but it is no different to anything we have been spun in years
Most of the posts against the network idea is that the players and mgrs coming in are not wanted not good enough to be at the club and as a result we are in a dodgy position in the league, and it is being reported that the mgr has little impact or control on who comes in
This has resulted in feeling unattached and distant from the players the mgmt the structure
All well and good concerns, and I don't doubt them, however I don't see a way around them either,
Someone is bank rolling the losses
There's infrastructure changes within the training ground that require investment someone is funding that
And we are signing players not all who have been shit
It's not a total negative coconsidering that not long ago we had to buy food at makro to put on a private function and that lots of local business were not being paid or paid on time2 -
Isn't phil Chapple the head scout, and has been for ages it concerned me when he got the job but I am sure it happened before RD0
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It's the old Tell, Sell, Consult, Join model (Tannenbaum and Schmidt Continuum if you want the academic bit)nth london addick said:People don't want to be part of RDs network they don't like it they are unsure of it and it is an unknown quantity, will it work won't it, they don't want cafc to be second or third as his priority, I am in that camp in only want cafc to be the most important team in that model if we are going to have to be in it
Communication is not the only issue being raised it is one of them and the only one that is factual from what I can see, but it is no different to anything we have been spun in years
Most of the posts against the network idea is that the players and mgrs coming in are not wanted not good enough to be at the club and as a result we are in a dodgy position in the league, and it is being reported that the mgr has little impact or control on who comes in
This has resulted in feeling unattached and distant from the players the mgmt the structure
All well and good concerns, and I don't doubt them, however I don't see a way around them either,
Someone is bank rolling the losses
There's infrastructure changes within the training ground that require investment someone is funding that
And we are signing players not all who have been shit
It's not a total negative coconsidering that not long ago we had to buy food at makro to put on a private function and that lots of local business were not being paid or paid on time
You can lead using any one or a combination but Roland doesn't do much or any and so KM is left with just Tell ("you just have to accept it)
Sell would be trying to convince us that model is good for us by "selling" it to us. This is why it is great, this is what you get. You don't get a say but you should like it for these reasons. Murray was good at this.
Consult is what it says and is what most Trusts want as realistic aim. KM says "we're thinking of doing this, what do you think, any ideas?" Then when she's listened she decides. She can't do this on any major issues now as Roland doesn't work like that and she is likely to get overruled by him. EG Luzon's appointment
Finally Join or Delegate. Roland says "You know what, you fans know the club, here's the budget, off you go and run the club yourselves, I'm here if you need some help". Can't see this one happening.
So for me, I'd like Charlton to be at least in Sell and with a bit of Consult. Join is a fantasy in a multi-million business.
The problem is maybe that KM feels that fans are demanding Join when really they would be happy with Sell. And even if she wanted to she doesn't have the power and as we know she, and we, just have to "accept" that.10 -
And it's our club.revellinit said:
Imnot , this is sort of how I see it. Demoralising yes for me included but if its working for RD then that will be it I think. Sure I would love RD to throw the money about and get Charlton promoted but I doubt that will happen and maybe that's why so many are demoralised, he has the money but wont spend it? Unless of course its his way, well it is his money!Imnot Athletic said:
Who says the model isn't working? It depends on how you classify success and what your timeframe is.Henry Irving said:Good post.
It still doesn't make sense but relegation does hurt him as TV and other income drops so that means he needs to cover more costs and/or make more cuts but there is no more flash on the non-playing bone to cut.
I don't think he wants to lose, he wants to win "Roland doesn't do failure" as KM told us last year.
Only winning or perhaps success is a better word is different to him that for most of us.
As fans most of want to win games, cups and promotions.
For RD I think success is proving that his model works, that there is a different and better way to run football clubs.
The problem is that most people would, when the model isn't working, change the model but it seems Roland just keeps right on.
And it could be a workable model. Most of ingredients are there, the clubs, the spending money for young talent, the lack of emotional attachment to a particular club and not being worried if the fans love him or not. Workable for RD, not for us fans though.
What is missing is that for this model to work you need to be really, really good at talent spotting the best value players and at spotting the best coaches. Not just good but the best in the game.
And we're nowhere near that.
Its not working for Charlton, but its worked at Standard Liege. He got £20m plus from player sales there that provided the working capital for his spending spree that included purchasing us, Alcaron and Jenna plus, I think and investment (but not control) in a Dutch club. That didn't happen in a year. It took him a few years, a few coaches and I'm sure a turn over of players to get SL to that point and then he cashed in his chips. Now they have slid down the division, fans are up in arms etc but he's still quids in and I'm sure they will build a team again and 3 or 4 years down the line SL will be topping the division with a good young squad and I'm sure he'll cash in again.
Since he's joined us none of the decisions make sense from a football point of view, but financially he's doing very well out of Charlton. Sure we are making an operating loss and he's invested in a new pitch and some non network new players. However if you add back the costs of the network players (and staff), which were sunk costs as far as the network is concerned and offset the money we got for Kermy, Stephens and Poyet are we making an operating loss? and what really is the nett investment. Also, of the players brought in, have any of them really depreciated in value? Even Peter Parsley has been banging them in for St Truden so has maintained at least some of his value.
From a Charlton centric point of view this isn't working, we've not got the right players in the right positions but, by and large, the wrong players are all from the network (sunk costs). The non network players RD have paid real money for have been good, so maybe the current scouting is working. RD may have made mistakes in the past, player recruitment wise, but is wasn't al bad (see the £20m + i mentioned earlier). Moving them round the network just gets some use out of that investment until they either click or can be offloaded
Its demoralising for the fans and the players but to say its failing or the model needs changing I think you need to look at if from a whole network perspective where you could argue, financially at least, it is working.0 -
So much of what you've written could have been very different with some open communication. When Curbs was relatively young in his management career, the club seemed to build slowly - one or two players a year that improved the squad. We all knew how the land lay, we were grateful to be back at the Valley and vaguely competitive. We got to a point where the signings - Mendonca the final piece in the jigsaw - made got us 88 points and winning a play off final against a strong Sunderland side.seriously_red said:.
Agreed we are all baffled - perhaps Luzon gets a loan striker?PragueAddick said:
To be clear, you will not find those words were used by me or any other member of the Trust board on here, still less in its public announcements. In fact the Trust has led the way with articles which show how it is impossible to be profitable in the Championship with a competitive squad. At the same time @seriously_red, bless him, has argued consistently that the route to becoming profitable is to invest sufficiently to have a squad at least capable of a play off place. Seriously_red and his former colleagues on the Trust board are now finally united in their complete bafflement of what the business plan actually is, and we are seeking an explanation from RD as to what it is, so that we can decide whether it is likely to secure the long term future of Charlton Athletic Football Club. Nothing more, nothing less ,as far as the Supporters Trust is concerned.To_Be_Franck said:
Like the money put in to a club allegedly on the brink of admin by someone ripping the heart out of the very club he saved.... convenient scapegoat for not spending above the club's means in the overpriced January transfer windowPragueAddick said:
Thank heavens for you Len. I was starting to think that I was the only one in the world who thought that.LenGlover said:Harriott actually did well to get to the ball at all. He was at full stretch.
But in the search for a convenient scapegoat, the truth is usually an early victim.
However, I would like to clarify a misunderstanding...
Getting to and staying in the top eight increases the value of the club but it will almost certainly increase losses - on amortised transfer fees of the players that need to be acquired to improve our attack and the actual player contracts.
What I think has annoyed many fans is that, having acquired Gudmundsson, Vetokele and the rest it needs more talent. Normally on a run such as ours the board do two things: sack the coach and bring in additional talent.
Now Duchatelet didn't do that last March and Riga proved that the squad was good enough to stay up. The difference is that then there was a core of players who had played together for three years AND while Powell had six wins (same as Peeters) they were roughly one a month.
Our excellent start has shown fans where we could be in a teasing fashion followed by six points from 12 and no signs of a win.
My guess is that this is the reason for detachment stated by so many - Duchatelet isn't showing any inclination to reverse the trend and is in fact saying nothing.
Win or lose, promoted or relegated, every club in the land except CAFC manages expectations through a many tiered set of communications to the media, sponsors and fans, I.e. The people who pay the bills.
The rumour was that Jiminez tried to convince Cash that CAFC needs to lose £10m a year to compete at the top of the Championship. I am no expert and wouldn't disagree. An additional £2m in player wages and £2m in transfer fee amortisation might take us into the top eight. Then again maybe it wouldn't for there are plenty of clubs losing £10m + who are in the bottom half of the table.
And to complete the argument, the logic is that even if you fail to secure promotion, you can recoup some money because your squad is sought after. I understand that had we lost to Sunderland in '98 there was a £3m offer from Spurs for Rufus.
As for Duchatelet's overall strategy for Staprix and CAFC? It's not clear he has one! As I have posted before, Mintzberg was famous for stating one can infer strategy from a series of decisions - basically you can see a pattern that can then be fitted into a narrative with some assumptions - in essence one gan look at the gaps in understanding and convert that into questions for the executive.
So I've done that and decanted into a single solitary question:
WTF?!
There was a lot of good will with the arrival of Vetokele and JBG. People were optimistic. And had RD said then, look, let's take this slowly. We're building a nucleus of a good squad and will improve it over time so that we're in a position in 3 years time to compete for promotion - well I reckon the mood would have been very different.
Or even if he'd said, I don't know if we'll ever be in a position to get promoted - let's break even whilst being ok in this league, then see where a little give and take takes us...well perhaps again the mood will have been different.
Instead, we're being treated like the proverbial mushrooms and told to pipe down when we question why we've had 4 managers in a year, why we're still recruiting players that will never play for us, and why we've still not replaced the spine we sold in the first 6 months.
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Head scout in the UK. But he reports abroad to "someone", who then, it would seem, more often that not, ignores his recommendations and foists a player on us that is not good enough and not in the position required.nth london addick said:Isn't phil Chapple the head scout, and has been for ages it concerned me when he got the job but I am sure it happened before RD
Square pegs & round holes !2 -
I agree... That it does.roseandcrown said:
I choose a life of optimism...
Ignorance is bliss, but unwavering optimism is pretty enjoyable too.
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