Attention: Please take a moment to consider our terms and conditions before posting.
NEW ARTICLE: My Charlton, Your Charlton and what exactly is it that you want?
Comments
-
Good opening post AFKA. Sums up pretty much how I feel. I was going to say what follows last night but I was so cold that I kept my hands in my pockets. I moved down to London from Scotland after university 29 years ago. I had supported Kilmarnock as a boy - my father god bless him decided to take me to see my local family club intead of Rangers or Celtic. killie were pretty rubbish but a friendly inclusive place with family values, a good youth system, no problems getting a ticket and I felt safe (ringing any bells?). When I moved south I lived in Kensington for six months then hither Green for a year and a half before moving to dartford. I had the pick of any London team to support and in those first six months my Saturday morning routine (for indeed most games were on a Saturday!) was to find the game I fancied best and go along and pay my fiver. So I saw most London teams and visited most of the stadia. I didn't develop any passionate attraction. When I moved to dartford my next door neighbour was a charlton st holder so I went along. First game v Bolton in 93 I think (east stand under construction, fatty Garland scored a screamer). And that was that. Hooked. Same feeling as the club I grew up with. What I can't put my finger on now is what is missing to make me feel detached and apathetic. The network etc is an obvious thing to blame as is the fact that football, like nostalgia, just ain't what it use to be and I am generally becoming less and less interested. But TBH I suspect the malaise has been slowly growing for a while At the moment I feel secure to the extent, as somebody did say last night, that the club is financially secure under RD and a lot of the worries about our very existence are dispelled. But there is a sterility about the whole thing at the moment that I can't quite describe. It might just be me as they say, but on last nights evidence, I don't think so.8
-
Good Post.
I think Steve Dixon summed it up for me last night. I don't want to be part of the London Franchise but want an independent club where the aims and goals of the owners weather the are Charlton people or business men is for the greater good of Charlton.3 -
I think that this is a key issue where there is real division amongst us.roseandcrown said:Good Post.
I think Steve Dixon summed it up for me last night. I don't want to be part of the London Franchise but want an independent club where the aims and goals of the owners weather the are Charlton people or business men is for the greater good of Charlton.
I'm as frustrated as anybody with RD/KM's lack of transparency, engagement (& possibly, honesty). I'm frustrated about the farcical managerial merry-go-round, the mistakes made in player acquisitions and departures. But the issue of franchise vs. independence is where I'm still prepared to be open-minded.
I want RD to run this club properly, with an understanding of what makes us special. He needs to listen and connect better for that to happen, for sure. But i'm still prepared to give the idea of a network a bit of a go... Yes, a full-on co-operative/trust ownership would be best of all, but that's an experiment, too (note Swansea are getting an outside investor in).
Maybe it's because I've worked with & for multinationals a lot. I see the negatives, but some treat their customers & employees well, offer better career prospects, etc. And because we are a London club, we always have a chance of sucking in talent from the network rather than being a feeder.
It's far from perfect, but I'd rather we focussed our energies and protests on making it work within the current structure. I understand the "RD out" feelings, but unless you've got an alternative lined up, it's not going to get us anywhere.9 -
What do I want: I am not over concerned with the politics of ownership, I would just require that the club is kept on as sound a financial footing as possible. Duchatelet, though he might at present seem to be something of a miser as well as an experimentalist, is keeping the finances under control.
On the playing side, the side which interests me, i.e. the success and/or progress of the actual FOOTBALL team, I would like to see a team mainly composed of English or British players, with a good number of CAFC academy graduates, playing good football, pleasing us fans as a spectacle, giving 100% effort and dedication to their job and making gradual headway in the Championship, progressing towards a challenge for promotion to the Premier League.
I do not expect this to happen overnight, nor do I expect a challenge for the European Champions League any time soon, as nice as that would be.
If and when we reach the top division, instant relegation would not disturb me too much. Life as a yo-yo club would be exciting, bad for the nerves and financially rewarding for the club. Realistically unless a billionaire buys CAFC, we are unlikely to reach the heights of a Chelsea, Manchester United/City or an Arsenal. A life similar to (say) a West Bromwich Albion would do for me. I was going to type West Ham, but it's unlikely that CAFC will ever be given a brand new central(ish) London stadium at a knock down rent.
These are my ambitions and hopes for the club ... Amen ((:>)9 -
Superb opening thread from AFKA Bartram, your are the dogs !bolloxbolder said:I don't want us to throw the baby out with the bath water.
I want real dialogue and engagement with the owner, where he recognises us the supporters and taps in to us so that we can help resell the club to the disaffected audience his network vision has created.
In return he has to prove he is maleable. Listen to our scouts on prospective British purchases and recognise that unlike mainland Europe, English football is totally different and should be treated as such - ie his vision may work elsewhere, but not in the UK.
He has the funds to restore us back to the premiership. It can work, if he listens, learns the errors of his ways and takes us all forward with an incremental vision of the future. This was how we improved - incrementally - each year after returning to the Valley in 1992.
Which brings me on to Bollox or Mr Bolder, as we are not on first name terms yet.
If i had the mic last night, I was going to say BB opening Gambit, Because The baby being Charlton who thou being born in 1905 is my baby and yours,
and just like the baby in the Simpsons with never be any different.
Roland Duchalet is the Foster parent at the moment and most of us are unsure how he's going to raise our baby. He keeps changing the Nanny which can't be a good thing for the baby. All of us are worried with all these foreign nannies coming into our little Charlton's life that he will speak with a strange accent and
not be our Charlton any more. Roland has a nice big House with a lovely new lawn that our baby can play on, but it still feels a bit wrong somehow.
I heard that some people have stopped going to visit now and others have said let's take the baby away and we raise him in that tiny little house with no running water and no heating. at least he will be loved and cherished ?
That all sound 2nd rate to me (or league 2)
Wouldn't that be throwing the baby out with the bath water ?
3 -
A competitive team that battles in either the lower Prem or Higher Champ.AFKABartram said:
What exactly is it that YOU want?
Not a YoYo team and certainly not one battling relegation every season in the Championship.
I want a manager that gives his all and players to match, even if they're not the next Henry, Ronaldo or Pele.
I want us to be financially secure and I want us to be an individual within the network providing the running becomes better planned and more translucent.
Oh and *even* more fancy foods.
1 -
A competitive team in either of the top 2 divisions.
Entertainment and commitment on the pitch
Players that have been around and know the place. They could be homegrown (e.g. Brown, Leaburn, Rufus, Solly), signings who became Charlton stalwarts (e.g. Kiely, Robinson, Kinsella, Powell, Jackson) or foreign players (e.g. Kishishev). I don't like having a new team every season.
A manager that I believe in
Decent facilities (acceptable toilets, something decent to drink, this season being the first time Real Ale has been sold so a major improvement)
Good community links
Financial stability
No silly gimmicks (cheerleaders, goal music etc)
Competitive tickets prices (i.e. not too high, but also not too low so as to cripple us financially)7 -
What I want
An independently owned club
A club that puts its supporters at the heart of everything it does
A club that understands that without the supporters, there is no club
A club that makes decisions (even the ones that turn out to be bad decisions) with the interests of the supporters at heart
A club that communicates openly and honestly with its supporters, welcomes feedback and input from those supporters, and recognises the key importance of retaining supporter engagement with the club.
What I'd settle for right now, as a step in the right direction
A club that doesn't tell us that this is the way it is, like it or lump it
A club that recognises that its aims will be much harder to achieve if supporters continue to desert the club
A club that recognises and acknowledges that numerous mistakes have been made in the running of the club since the current ownership arrived, and can state with sincerity that it will strive to do better in the future.
A club that doesn't lie to us.
A club that doesn't continue to combine the incompetence of someone who's never done it before with the arrogance of someone who thinks they've got nothing left to learn.15 -
What do people mean by independently owned?
Russian oligarchs play thing?
Spivs wing it play thing?
Fan owned in League 2?2 -
I meant not part of a network. Have a look through this list, you'll find there's plenty of options that don't fall within any of your 3 categories - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_football_club_ownersRothko said:What do people mean by independently owned?
Russian oligarchs play thing?
Spivs wing it play thing?
Fan owned in League 2?
1 - Sponsored links:
-
Agree with Mr Largo. Especially the club that does not lie to you. I still find it difficult to accept the explanation from KM about appointing the current manager.
0 -
If we have to be part of a network I don't want it:
To develop Charlton in order to deliver profits to RD (beyond a fair return on his investment)
Players not wanted by one club to be forced on another club
Run by faceless advisers who know jack shit about Charlton, the Championship, English football
Managed by coaches who have restricted authority over player selection
There are potential positives to a well thought out network model, but it makes no sense to have the negatives of a flawed model. Would it not makes sense for RD get input from supporters on how a network model made mutually acceptable with all stakeholders understanding the risks and rewards.1 -
Think Steve has managed to put into words what most of us have been unable to so clearly.roseandcrown said:Good Post.
I think Steve Dixon summed it up for me last night. I don't want to be part of the London Franchise but want an independent club where the aims and goals of the owners weather the are Charlton people or business men is for the greater good of Charlton.
But unfortunately under this owner it's not possible. And that's why I was anti-RD from the start.2 -
My first visit to The Valley was in the 1980/81 promotion season.
I was sceptical of the owner's network from the start, but could not be openly oppositional, in that I did not know enough about the proposition at that time. I gave him the benefit of the doubt, renewed my season ticket and bided my time. That time has been largely miserable. I have done what I can within the Supporters' Trust to move things forward positively. The owner cannot rely upon my continued active support of the club. I look forward to the day that he relinquishes control of my club. Some people say that 'things could be worse'. Perhaps. Things could be better, too.3 -
A team of players who are well managed (ie inspired to play to their optimum strengths) and will die for each other on and off the pitch.
I'm not convinced you can achieve this with constant managerial changes, suspect managerial appointments, and hit and miss player recruitment.3 -
Owners that dont move money and players around their network for the good of their head office rather than the footballing ambition of Charlton.
Owners that recognise Charlton is a football club where people go to see a competitive team not their friends and family.
Charlton fans that have passion and travel away in numbers.0 -
Better check with Oohaah on that ;-)kentred2 said:Owners that dont move money and players around their network for the good of their head office rather than the footballing ambition of Charlton.
Owners that recognise Charlton is a football club where people go to see a competitive team not their friends and family.
Charlton fans that have passion and travel away in numbers.2 -
I want all the negativity from the fans at the games and on internet sites to stop.
Five or 6 seasons ago the moaning from the bloke behind me became the moaning from the BBM in in front of me and wherever I sat at away games. Drained the enjoyment. I want it to stop but know it is a British football fact of life.
I've not encountered it at any of the many other sports I now spend more and more time watching live.2 -
Can't argue with any of that and saved me time posting what you have said there.Lincsaddick said:What do I want: I am not over concerned with the politics of ownership, I would just require that the club is kept on as sound a financial footing as possible. Duchatelet, though he might at present seem to be something of a miser as well as an experimentalist, is keeping the finances under control.
On the playing side, the side which interests me, i.e. the success and/or progress of the actual FOOTBALL team, I would like to see a team mainly composed of English or British players, with a good number of CAFC academy graduates, playing good football, pleasing us fans as a spectacle, giving 100% effort and dedication to their job and making gradual headway in the Championship, progressing towards a challenge for promotion to the Premier League.
I do not expect this to happen overnight, nor do I expect a challenge for the European Champions League any time soon, as nice as that would be.
If and when we reach the top division, instant relegation would not disturb me too much. Life as a yo-yo club would be exciting, bad for the nerves and financially rewarding for the club. Realistically unless a billionaire buys CAFC, we are unlikely to reach the heights of a Chelsea, Manchester United/City or an Arsenal. A life similar to (say) a West Bromwich Albion would do for me. I was going to type West Ham, but it's unlikely that CAFC will ever be given a brand new central(ish) London stadium at a knock down rent.
These are my ambitions and hopes for the club ... Amen ((:>)2 -
I hate the “pro/anti RD” terms that we have started using to describe ourselves or other supporters. It’s divisive and I don’t think it serves any purpose other than to create an unnecessary adversarial environment. I would presume that anyone mad enough to spend their time on this site and get caught up in all of this is just “pro Charlton” and I don’t think dividing our already dwindling support base any further is a good idea.14
- Sponsored links:
-
Good piece AFKA. I was not going to post. In all honesty I am not sure I have much new to add and already have been into excruciating detail. However I am perplexed by those holding an opinion things are going, if not well, then ok. I assume it is a matter of expectation.
I respect his companies spent money to purchase the club. I recognise as an investor he will want it back. I applaud the Duchatelet vision to deliver a successful & viable club. It is a common sense goal and yes he has a twist on how he might achieve that aim but....based on the executive decisions being made I have to challenge the implementation of the vision and the "priorities" pursued.
His own words "you cannot build tall buildings without strong foundations" condemn the executive performance.
Strong foundations in football come from sure-footed actions and a stability extending beyond a financial focus. I suggest most supporters are merely looking for a restoration of a few of the familiar fundamentals needed in running a stable football club. You need stability to;
- bring through younger players to play from a settled platform
- enable players to perform to the best of their ability
- enable players to build a team and a spirit to deliver performances greater than the sum of their parts
These are fundamental to the principles of a low cost player development & sales business plan. They are the norms of a successful clubhouse.
Every business makes mistakes but to progress you need to understand why mistakes are being made. My argument is the business is structurally flawed, which without change, will perpetuate an instability to the detriment of everyone. To some, the flaw is the very network concept. My difficulty is we simply do not know how it is designed to work. A real concern is the executive refusal to talk suggests they do not know either!! It is not they do not want to communicate but that they really do have nothing to say!
On the evidence we see we can argue it is not working for us. The Brentford win highlighted our collective football failings this season have mostly arisen from poor executive decisions. I give just 2 examples.
We re-engineer our goalkeeping staff (& pipeline of promising keepers) to bring in Dmitrovic, an Ujpest reserve. He has ability. Yet, with a number of senior keepers available (on loan) to step in until Henderson returned, there were better lower cost options. Financial sense for Ujpest maybe but a questionable football decision for us.
The return of an established goalkeeper is testimony to what could have been over the past 3 months.
The season starts with a Church, Vetokele & Tucudean senior strike force. It was never enough. Ahearne Grant, Moussa, Harriott & Bulot "filled in". In terms of a game plan that Watt struggled in Liege appears nothing more than a fortuitous blessing.
Having the option of a credible physical presence "up top" is what the side has needed for the past 30 games.
Credit is due to all concerned for the Brentford result but The executive failure to manage in the interest of the squad has to date thrown a series of coaches and senior players "under the bus." It is has been a recipe for far reaching dissension and discord within and without the football clubhouse.
I welcome the influx of Veljkovic, Etheridge, Johnson, Lepoint and now Eagles but at this stage they are sticking plaster solutions to cover the wounds of a poorly constructed squad. This make do and mend approach has delivered a destabilising & inadequate executive performance. It was unnecessary. It has to change or the challenging business model Duchatelet seeks to deliver will be rendered as unsustainable as his political dalliance.
It is never easy, in any industry, to make unpopular decisions but you must for any stability manage "matters arising". This executive gives every impression, far from managing the consequences of their decisions, of being steadfastly oblivious to any impact to the point of neglect. Events involving De Camargo at Liege over the last week are a perfect example. The lack of communication/ agreement between key parties shows all the laughable hallmarks of corporate dysfunction at its best.
We know every club outside the PL has its financial challenges. It is not whether financial decisions need to be made but how such decisions are managed for the club to progress. We know nothing of the executive benchmarks for success, what does their end game actually look like or crucially who in the hell is making the footballing decisions. These are the issues on which I welcome clarity.
The response to such requests is not "suck it up, it is my way or nothing". If "tugging the forelock and bending the knee" is now a condition of supporting Charlton then I suspect many of my generation will find they really do have better things to do. The missives of corporate "fiefdoms" rarely translate well into the public domain.
I do not wish to see Duchatelet go. I seek stability. I seek evidence he will learn from the stumbling efforts we have evidenced to date and that he will empower those with the experience & understanding of the industry in which he chose to invest. You learn from dialogue, listening and exchanging views.
Recent events show all of the disconnect between a remote Head Office, an inexperienced Area Manager and an under resourced retail operation struggling to meet their sales targets in a competitive market, after the initial staff shortages were exacerbated by the regular absences of experienced front line staff.
Will the policy decisions to bring in Watt & Dmitrovic, the Area Manager addition of Johnson (and now Eagles) and the Henderson return from sick leave prove to be more than just a good day in the office?
Will we see stability in the 2015 close season, with 9 players - Ben Haim, Bulot, Buyens, Church, Eagles, Etheridge, Johnson, Onyewu, Wilson out of contract and the likelihood of 7 more Ahearne Grant, Berg Gudmondsson, Cousins, Gomez, Pope, Vetokele, Watt, put on the trading block as "those who cannot be named" meddle again with the squad?
Will January 2016 see us once more reach for the sticking plaster?
Will we see change? I suppose at one level it will depend if we are still interested in 12 months time, which in itself for many will depend on the commendable efforts of those exploring every option, despite the naysayers, for establishing a constructive dialogue with the club executive.
I wish to see them successful in their endeavours.22 -
I think the network has potential as one resource - a means to an end rather than, as it seems at the moment, an end in itself.redlanered said:
I think that this is a key issue where there is real division amongst us.roseandcrown said:Good Post.
I think Steve Dixon summed it up for me last night. I don't want to be part of the London Franchise but want an independent club where the aims and goals of the owners weather the are Charlton people or business men is for the greater good of Charlton.
I'm as frustrated as anybody with RD/KM's lack of transparency, engagement (& possibly, honesty). I'm frustrated about the farcical managerial merry-go-round, the mistakes made in player acquisitions and departures. But the issue of franchise vs. independence is where I'm still prepared to be open-minded.
I want RD to run this club properly, with an understanding of what makes us special. He needs to listen and connect better for that to happen, for sure. But i'm still prepared to give the idea of a network a bit of a go... Yes, a full-on co-operative/trust ownership would be best of all, but that's an experiment, too (note Swansea are getting an outside investor in).
Maybe it's because I've worked with & for multinationals a lot. I see the negatives, but some treat their customers & employees well, offer better career prospects, etc. And because we are a London club, we always have a chance of sucking in talent from the network rather than being a feeder.
It's far from perfect, but I'd rather we focussed our energies and protests on making it work within the current structure. I understand the "RD out" feelings, but unless you've got an alternative lined up, it's not going to get us anywhere.1 -
But Presumably Steve Dixon would prefer a club not at risk of administration too. So let's let Roland have us as his London franchise, get us to the promised land, sell us to someone else and he takes his money off into the sunset while we become independent?Atletico Addick said:
Think Steve has managed to put into words what most of us have been unable to so clearly.roseandcrown said:Good Post.
I think Steve Dixon summed it up for me last night. I don't want to be part of the London Franchise but want an independent club where the aims and goals of the owners weather the are Charlton people or business men is for the greater good of Charlton.
But unfortunately under this owner it's not possible. And that's why I was anti-RD from the start.
Everyone can win
0 -
Assuming, of course, the fans hang around waiting for a franchise in which they have no stake reaches the Premiership and gets sold. And assuming, of course, that's even RD's plan.Swisdom said:
But Presumably Steve Dixon would prefer a club not at risk of administration too. So let's let Roland have us as his London franchise, get us to the promised land, sell us to someone else and he takes his money off into the sunset while we become independent?Atletico Addick said:
Think Steve has managed to put into words what most of us have been unable to so clearly.roseandcrown said:Good Post.
I think Steve Dixon summed it up for me last night. I don't want to be part of the London Franchise but want an independent club where the aims and goals of the owners weather the are Charlton people or business men is for the greater good of Charlton.
But unfortunately under this owner it's not possible. And that's why I was anti-RD from the start.
Everyone can win0 -
1
-
My suspicion entirely. Great post.Grapevine49 said:
Every business makes mistakes but to progress you need to understand why mistakes are being made. My argument is the business is structurally flawed, which without change, will perpetuate an instability to the detriment of everyone. To some, the flaw is the very network concept. My difficulty is we simply do not know how it is designed to work. A real concern is the executive refusal to talk suggests they do not know either!! It is not they do not want to communicate but that they really do have nothing to say!
0 -
And surely all the more reason to get the supporters on board who can help them shape it.Airman Brown said:
My suspicion entirely. Great post.Grapevine49 said:
Every business makes mistakes but to progress you need to understand why mistakes are being made. My argument is the business is structurally flawed, which without change, will perpetuate an instability to the detriment of everyone. To some, the flaw is the very network concept. My difficulty is we simply do not know how it is designed to work. A real concern is the executive refusal to talk suggests they do not know either!! It is not they do not want to communicate but that they really do have nothing to say!0 -
Great post Grapevine......
......with the added benefit that your posts are amongst the few always longer than my own
0 -
The network is difficult to understand - we have got players that have clearly not been up to the task and we have heard the manager at the time has been under pressure to play them. We all know this isn't right. But we have seen some decent players come in. Igor is probably as good as we have had for a while and JBG and Watt have quality. There clearly are some benefits. But for me the network has frustrated as progress has been made but then not capitalised on. I spoke to a Watford supporting mate and he told me that their owners took a while to understand the division and there were some parallels. It is frustrating because there is knowledge that the owner can latch on to but he wants to do it his way without compromise. This way equals mistakes and I think a big one is not finding an English CEO. The strategy could then be better communicated to fans, business errors have been made due to ignorance and inexperience and maybe with somebody who has a better understanding of the fans and the benefits of keeping them onside, and we would be in a better place. The crazy thing about the Peeters sacking was that fans were more annoyed about how things were handled and communicated rather than the act itself. Then you have the tickets, crossbows, statements showing a lack of understanding about building support and you see too many own goals.
I think part of the problem s that Duchatelet wants somebody he can trust in charge of the club, but he would be better off with somebody the fans trust too. It isn't all gloom, but their have been opportunities that have been passed up. The club has been crying out for a couple of players for too long. One has been a striker. When a striker like Watt finally comes in we look a decent side. But we have seen what was needed for most of the season, it hasn't been a puzzle! The delay has probably cost us a play off place. Ok, a couple of games ago, it was looking like it could cost us more than that, but the network has given us a glimpse of how it can work. The question for me is will it stop scoring unprofessional own goals. I think there have been far too many of these and I am still waiting for the next one.
12 -
A less cavalier approach to the Supporters. More honesty. Whatever business you are in your customers are your lifeblood, look after them, get them on your side and don't treat them like fools.3
