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Game of Thrones
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At the risk of sounding sexist.
Danerys was probably having her women's time.
If you give a woman in that situation access to a fire breathing dragon it will only end one way.10 -
Patch Notes for Game of Thrones Season 8 Episode 5
Scorpions got nerfed. Significantly reduced accuracy. And the hero character Euron no longer gives a bonus to Scorpion accuracy.
Dragons got buffed. Speed and stealth have both been increased. They can now take the hide action while flying.
Dothraki have been added back to the game. Fans were upset about their removal, so they’re back now.
Battle Times have been shortened. Complaints that the Battle of Winterfell lasted too long have been heard, so now battles last no longer than 5 minutes.
Northerners and Unsullied both have reduced honor and morality meters. It is now possible for them to commit war crimes with little to no provocation.
Cersei’s speed has been reduced. She now moves sluggishly, if at all.
Euron’s plot armor has been removed.
The Mountain’s loyalty has been reduced for the introduction of the Cleganebowl game type.
Arya’s conviction has been reduced after complaints that she was too OP. Her plot armor has been significantly increased to compensate.
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good way of looking at last episode that I just saw on twitter
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Not really sure you could say Qyburn faced his demon as he never really had much to do with it. The Hound pops up out of nowhere and Gregor just casually tosses his maker down the stairs on a whim!0
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Just read online that Dany should’ve attacked the Red Keep but accidentally set off all the wildfire stored under the city. Same end goal achieved for the sake of the story but without such a dramatic and sudden personality change from a main character5
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Killed by his own creation and what not thoughthenewbie said:Not really sure you could say Qyburn faced his demon as he never really had much to do with it. The Hound pops up out of nowhere and Gregor just casually tosses his maker down the stairs on a whim!0 -
There is another element that has been brought in about Dany this season, which is that she is not the rightful heir to the throne. It is Jon. Her character change has not been out of character, or out of the blue, but is entirely in line with her personality and genetics.
Up to this series she has felt secure in being the rightful heir, so has felt confident and justified in what she has been doing and has had the backing of those around her. However, in this season she has learned about Jon and has not been magnanimous in accepting him as the rightful heir, which he is. In fact she has tried to hush it up. She is now showing her true colours which, in the end, are about power and not about compassion which she has always been advocating. Varys saw this and she had him burned alive. And Jon and Tyrion are slowly seeing it even though they don't want to believe it.
This will be a big part of the confrontation and conclusion in the final episode in my opinion.11 -
Read some of the feedback on the episode, I have only watched once as been quite busy but I personally thought it was brilliant. There were probably tonnes of flaws as ever, but still one more to go
might rewatch from the beginning again once done although that could take a while lolOne thing I didn't think made sense, was why Dany saw Cersai from a distance on the dragon. Rather then just fly over and kill her why did she start burning everything on site. Surely she didn't need to, or was this basically the Mad Queen in action?
Still loved it, especially The Hound vs The Mountain battle.
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I dont think Dany ever saw Cersai in Kings Landing, would have been good eyesight thats for surejohnnybev1987 said:Read some of the feedback on the episode, I have only watched once as been quite busy but I personally thought it was brilliant. There were probably tonnes of flaws as ever, but still one more to go
might rewatch from the beginning again once done although that could take a while lolOne thing I didn't think made sense, was why Dany saw Cersai from a distance on the dragon. Rather then just fly over and kill her why did she start burning everything on site. Surely she didn't need to, or was this basically the Mad Queen in action?
Still loved it, especially The Hound vs The Mountain battle.
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ForeverAddickted said:
I dont think Dany ever saw Cersai in Kings Landing, would have been good eyesight thats for surejohnnybev1987 said:Read some of the feedback on the episode, I have only watched once as been quite busy but I personally thought it was brilliant. There were probably tonnes of flaws as ever, but still one more to go
might rewatch from the beginning again once done although that could take a while lolOne thing I didn't think made sense, was why Dany saw Cersai from a distance on the dragon. Rather then just fly over and kill her why did she start burning everything on site. Surely she didn't need to, or was this basically the Mad Queen in action?
Still loved it, especially The Hound vs The Mountain battle.
Possibly, looked in view although far still was thinking she could fly over at any point.0 -
D.B. Weiss: "I don’t think she decided ahead of time that she was going to do what she did. And then she sees the Red Keep, which is, to her, the home that her family built when they first came over to this country 300 years ago. It’s in that moment, on the walls of King’s Landing, when she’s looking at that symbol of everything that was taken from her, when she makes the decision to make this personal.”
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A major part of the problem I have with this whole Mad Queen thing is that it absolutely was decided ahead of time what Dany would do. Dan & Dave had an end point and have worked backwards to get there, its all driven by plot requirements, not character development. Now it looks like Rhaegal was killed with 3 consecutive one in a million shots just to make sure that Jon couldn't stop her from torching the city.JiMMy 85 said:D.B. Weiss: "I don’t think she decided ahead of time that she was going to do what she did. And then she sees the Red Keep, which is, to her, the home that her family built when they first came over to this country 300 years ago. It’s in that moment, on the walls of King’s Landing, when she’s looking at that symbol of everything that was taken from her, when she makes the decision to make this personal.”
Leave signposts littered around as much as you like, that's no substitute for depicting the changes in her character and her deterioration toward madness. Having one scene where she's looking rough and her hair is a mess to demonstrate her failing mental state is all you really get.
Is Dan honestly trying to convince us that Danaerys flipped out because she saw a castle that she had never even been to in her life before? He's not saying she's mad, just saying she made a conscious decision to take it personally. He's putting a logical reasoning behind her decision to incinerate hundreds of thousands of defenceless civilians after the city had surrendered. That's not mad, not even pretend TV cartoon mad, that's just plain vindictive and evil. From the same character that locked up her dragons because they burnt one single kid. It was a visually impressive episode, but in the end, I just didn't buy what they did to Dany's character.6 -
Rhaegal was cruising. Flying in a straight line. He was taken by surprise. Compared to Dany, who was flying at top speed, with the sun behind her, dodging skillfully. It really isn't a stretch to buy this - unless your really don't want to.
In my opinion, there wasn't a change. Not really. There was a development of what we've been seeing regularly for the last decade. She's killed hundreds of people. She's talked loads about burning cities to the ground, about leaving them in ashes. She was going to do exactly that last season - until the people around her guided her towards a better path (as they have done all the way through the show).Missed It said:JiMMy 85 said:D.B. Weiss: "I don’t think she decided ahead of time that she was going to do what she did. And then she sees the Red Keep, which is, to her, the home that her family built when they first came over to this country 300 years ago. It’s in that moment, on the walls of King’s Landing, when she’s looking at that symbol of everything that was taken from her, when she makes the decision to make this personal.”
Leave signposts littered around as much as you like, that's no substitute for depicting the changes in her character and her deterioration toward madness.
Now the only ally she has is Grey Worm, a guy who a) is built to fight and b) seething angry. And now, more than ever, she's in deep shit because she's just found out that the one thing that justified her existence - being the rightful heir - is built on a lie. It's given the L+R=J thing total sense, it's fully tied into the resolution of the story.
That all said, I think Weiss's explanation hasn't helped - I think he said it for a behind-the-scenes show and summed up the writers' room logic with a soundbite. I'd imagine we'll get a bit more development on that next week.
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She had the battle won and everything she had ever wanted there. Instead she kills loads of innocent civilians and burns down the place she has wanted to rule... it makes literally no sense at all.4
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The dragons are only as powerful as the plot decides it's poor writing.3
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She literally doesn't have the one thing she's ever wanted, even after winning the battle. She wants the throne and the people's love and now knows that it's Jon's throne, and the people will want Jon and not her. Ergo, she burns the people (the ones in front of her).cs1986 said:She had the battle won and everything she had ever wanted there. Instead she kills loads of innocent civilians and burns down the place she has wanted to rule... it makes literally no sense at all.2 -
Agree the people don't love her. It is her throne though not Jon's. He doesn't want it and she has won the war for the throne so it's hers same as it was Roberts. She has always saved the innocents it's just too big a turn too quickly for meLoOkOuT said:
She literally doesn't have the one thing she's ever wanted, even after winning the battle. She wants the throne and the people's love and now knows that it's Jon's throne, and the people will want Jon and not her. Ergo, she burns the people (the ones in front of her).cs1986 said:She had the battle won and everything she had ever wanted there. Instead she kills loads of innocent civilians and burns down the place she has wanted to rule... it makes literally no sense at all.1 -
JiMMy 85 said:Rhaegal was cruising. Flying in a straight line. He was taken by surprise. Compared to Dany, who was flying at top speed, with the sun behind her, dodging skillfully. It really isn't a stretch to buy this - unless your really don't want to.
In my opinion, there wasn't a change. Not really. There was a development of what we've been seeing regularly for the last decade. She's killed hundreds of people. She's talked loads about burning cities to the ground, about leaving them in ashes. She was going to do exactly that last season - until the people around her guided her towards a better path (as they have done all the way through the show).Missed It said:JiMMy 85 said:D.B. Weiss: "I don’t think she decided ahead of time that she was going to do what she did. And then she sees the Red Keep, which is, to her, the home that her family built when they first came over to this country 300 years ago. It’s in that moment, on the walls of King’s Landing, when she’s looking at that symbol of everything that was taken from her, when she makes the decision to make this personal.”
Leave signposts littered around as much as you like, that's no substitute for depicting the changes in her character and her deterioration toward madness.
Now the only ally she has is Grey Worm, a guy who a) is built to fight and b) seething angry. And now, more than ever, she's in deep shit because she's just found out that the one thing that justified her existence - being the rightful heir - is built on a lie. It's given the L+R=J thing total sense, it's fully tied into the resolution of the story.
That all said, I think Weiss's explanation hasn't helped - I think he said it for a behind-the-scenes show and summed up the writers' room logic with a soundbite. I'd imagine we'll get a bit more development on that next week.
I don't know how much guidance you need to not burn thousands of defenceless civilians. You either know that's wrong or you're a whole other sort of person. Tyrion's advice has been absolute pony for the last few years anyway.
The behind the scenes interviews with Dan and Dave certainly don't help. It exposes how as writers they're pushing pieces round a board rather than giving life to the characters. That "Dany kind of forgot about the Iron Fleet" is going to follow Benioff to the grave - and rightly so.
As for Rhaegal, maybe it's just my RAF days showing through, but I can't see medieval air defence working like that. If they'd have put up a whole barrage of arrows, an unavoidable cloud of hundreds of them, I'd have maybe bought that. Euron and his one-time use only aimbot cheat codes, not so much.
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I think that the point is despite all the sacrifice and all the loss she didn't have a single thing she wanted. The people don't want her as queen, two of her 'children' are dead, she is pretty sure she can't have actual children again, her friends and confidants have died fighting her war, and she doesn't even have her claim to the throne anymore. Jon rejecting her was the final straw. She's spent almost her whole life being told she will sit on her throne as a beloved queen and at her moment of victory she realises she's alone and the only thing she has left is the fear she can instill in people to make them follow her. It makes perfect sense.cs1986 said:She had the battle won and everything she had ever wanted there. Instead she kills loads of innocent civilians and burns down the place she has wanted to rule... it makes literally no sense at all.
I also think that the scene with her and Grey Worm doesn't get enough credit as a big psychological trigger for her in that episode. She offers him a memento of the woman he loved to help him find some peace, and he throws it in the fire. He chooses destruction and revenge over reflection and calm, and she watches him do it. Missandei's last words are essentially repeated in that moment and are probably ringing in her head when she decides not to stop.4 -
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So you can suspend your disbelief to accept there are dragons, effectively defying gravity by moving their wings around a little bit, but when it comes to the use of big metal arrows, you're drawing a line?Missed It said:JiMMy 85 said:Rhaegal was cruising. Flying in a straight line. He was taken by surprise. Compared to Dany, who was flying at top speed, with the sun behind her, dodging skillfully. It really isn't a stretch to buy this - unless your really don't want to.
In my opinion, there wasn't a change. Not really. There was a development of what we've been seeing regularly for the last decade. She's killed hundreds of people. She's talked loads about burning cities to the ground, about leaving them in ashes. She was going to do exactly that last season - until the people around her guided her towards a better path (as they have done all the way through the show).Missed It said:JiMMy 85 said:D.B. Weiss: "I don’t think she decided ahead of time that she was going to do what she did. And then she sees the Red Keep, which is, to her, the home that her family built when they first came over to this country 300 years ago. It’s in that moment, on the walls of King’s Landing, when she’s looking at that symbol of everything that was taken from her, when she makes the decision to make this personal.”
Leave signposts littered around as much as you like, that's no substitute for depicting the changes in her character and her deterioration toward madness.
Now the only ally she has is Grey Worm, a guy who a) is built to fight and b) seething angry. And now, more than ever, she's in deep shit because she's just found out that the one thing that justified her existence - being the rightful heir - is built on a lie. It's given the L+R=J thing total sense, it's fully tied into the resolution of the story.
That all said, I think Weiss's explanation hasn't helped - I think he said it for a behind-the-scenes show and summed up the writers' room logic with a soundbite. I'd imagine we'll get a bit more development on that next week.
As for Rhaegal, maybe it's just my RAF days showing through, but I can't see medieval air defence working like that. If they'd have put up a whole barrage of arrows, an unavoidable cloud of hundreds of them, I'd have maybe bought that. Euron and his one-time use only aimbot cheat codes, not so much.8 -
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JiMMy 85 said:
So you can suspend your disbelief to accept there are dragons, effectively defying gravity by moving their wings around a little bit, but when it comes to the use of big metal arrows, you're drawing a line?Missed It said:JiMMy 85 said:Rhaegal was cruising. Flying in a straight line. He was taken by surprise. Compared to Dany, who was flying at top speed, with the sun behind her, dodging skillfully. It really isn't a stretch to buy this - unless your really don't want to.
In my opinion, there wasn't a change. Not really. There was a development of what we've been seeing regularly for the last decade. She's killed hundreds of people. She's talked loads about burning cities to the ground, about leaving them in ashes. She was going to do exactly that last season - until the people around her guided her towards a better path (as they have done all the way through the show).Missed It said:JiMMy 85 said:D.B. Weiss: "I don’t think she decided ahead of time that she was going to do what she did. And then she sees the Red Keep, which is, to her, the home that her family built when they first came over to this country 300 years ago. It’s in that moment, on the walls of King’s Landing, when she’s looking at that symbol of everything that was taken from her, when she makes the decision to make this personal.”
Leave signposts littered around as much as you like, that's no substitute for depicting the changes in her character and her deterioration toward madness.
Now the only ally she has is Grey Worm, a guy who a) is built to fight and b) seething angry. And now, more than ever, she's in deep shit because she's just found out that the one thing that justified her existence - being the rightful heir - is built on a lie. It's given the L+R=J thing total sense, it's fully tied into the resolution of the story.
That all said, I think Weiss's explanation hasn't helped - I think he said it for a behind-the-scenes show and summed up the writers' room logic with a soundbite. I'd imagine we'll get a bit more development on that next week.
As for Rhaegal, maybe it's just my RAF days showing through, but I can't see medieval air defence working like that. If they'd have put up a whole barrage of arrows, an unavoidable cloud of hundreds of them, I'd have maybe bought that. Euron and his one-time use only aimbot cheat codes, not so much.
You're in to film criticism, you know what's what and how this stuff works. Don't be trolling me ; )
Suspension of disbelief works all the time, but only if the TV show respects it's own internal logic. If it doesn't, that's what jars you and brings you crashing back to real life. If there was wizard in GoT that could shoot lightning bolts out of the sky, you might reasonably expect them to hit a dragon, even though the concept is ridiculous at face value.
GoT revels in its grubby, brutal medieval realism. Dragons are magic but normal men are stuck using primitive, reasonably historically accurate weapons. This is one mere mortal man, operating a hand cranked, line of sight, medieval ballista at a magical flying creature hundreds of feet in the air, from ships that were so far away and so well hidden that nobody saw them coming. A weapon which then became completely ineffectual for the rest of the series.
My gut reaction to the whole scene was "WTF!" and it only seemed more daft to me the more I thought about it. My suspension of disbelief was broken, thanks to the boneheaded writers who didn't stop for two minutes to consider if what they were doing would add up in the known world of GoT.
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Pretty sure they explain several times in season 7 that these 'scorpions' are far more accurate and powerful as they'd been developing them since the days after the last Targaryen with dragons was killed.0
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Of course I agree with all your logic on suspension of disbelief. But I also think the explanation is there. The ships were behind some big cliff things, effectively in a blind spot. The dragons were flying slowly and not expecting to be shot at.
Meanwhile Dany adjusted her flying technique and, having sized up the defences of Kings Landing in the previous episode (while watching Missandei get killed), attacked them so ferociously they couldn’t respond adequately. I don’t find that any of that breaks the internal logic. They just didn’t provide much exposition to sweeten the deal.
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I don’t have too much problem with this series. Yes, there are elements I’d change, but it seems the whole world is going a bit overboard on the criticism.
Having said that...
The only thing that has consistently irritated me is Euron Greyjoy. I really can’t remember anything good that he’s brought to the show. He was a pointlessly cruel dickhead who wished he was Jack Sparrow. I kept expecting him to yell out “Yaaaar, shipmates!” Or to see him wearing a ‘Talk like a Pirate Day’ badge.
His character could’ve remained like one of the many other minor bad guys and we would have been no worse off for it. The time dedicated to him could even have been used to put a bit more meat on the major character arcs.
He’s been involved in a number of critical scenes, but it just seems like the show could’ve coped better without him. The iron fleet could’ve never existed and it wouldn’t have mattered - for example, Rhaegal could’ve been taken out by a little fella with a camouflaged scorpion on a hill or something.
The question of Cersei’s baby’s Parentage didn’t matter in the end, so he might as well have never done that. (Why didn’t he look quizzical when Tyrion bellowed up at Cersei that she was pregnant? Didn’t he realise he couldn’t be the father if Tyrion knew about it already?)
He made the most sense when the Greyjoys were fighting amongst themselves, but I suspect the show runners got a bit carried away and made the character more important than was necessary.
Euron’s fight to the death with Jaime was the tipping point for me. This has been the only moment that made me go “Oh, FFS!” Purely because I didn’t see any reason for his character to deserve closure or, for that matter, exist. That scene could’ve been edited out. Jaime dies anyway, so being mortally wounded was irrelevant and Euron might as well have drowned after Drogon fucked his boat.
Anyway. It’s never going to be perfect and I still love the show. But if truth be told, I think I’m glad it’s nearly over.3 -
People wondering how they made a more accurate scorpion in disbelief when they made a basically indestructible zombie mountain smdh1
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I get those arguments and some people buy them, some don't. It's an example of the show splitting it's fandom, one half are OK with it while the other half think it's dumb. (Though I would still ask, if you can't be seen by your target from behind a cliff, how do you see your target to aim at it?!)JiMMy 85 said:Of course I agree with all your logic on suspension of disbelief. But I also think the explanation is there. The ships were behind some big cliff things, effectively in a blind spot. The dragons were flying slowly and not expecting to be shot at.
Meanwhile Dany adjusted her flying technique and, having sized up the defences of Kings Landing in the previous episode (while watching Missandei get killed), attacked them so ferociously they couldn’t respond adequately. I don’t find that any of that breaks the internal logic. They just didn’t provide much exposition to sweeten the deal.
I think it's been a major problem for the show this year and it doesn't take much to get some GoT fans salty about things. Everything is rushed and crammed in, no time for explanations or for events to play out without seeming forced along for plot reasons. Sometimes I feel like I'm watching the Brodie's notes version of GoT. Get the plot points in, summarise everything, hurry up, no time until the final exam.
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To be fair the coffee cups have broken my suspension of disbelief.
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I do take your points seriously, and I get that some people aren't buying what's happening. But are you really saying you don't believe in the existence of ambushes? I find it really interesting that you keep picking holes in something that's so easily explained if you WANT it to be!Missed It said:
(Though I would still ask, if you can't be seen by your target from behind a cliff, how do you see your target to aim at it?!)JiMMy 85 said:Of course I agree with all your logic on suspension of disbelief. But I also think the explanation is there. The ships were behind some big cliff things, effectively in a blind spot. The dragons were flying slowly and not expecting to be shot at.
Meanwhile Dany adjusted her flying technique and, having sized up the defences of Kings Landing in the previous episode (while watching Missandei get killed), attacked them so ferociously they couldn’t respond adequately. I don’t find that any of that breaks the internal logic. They just didn’t provide much exposition to sweeten the deal.
Euron and the Iron Fleet got to Dragonstone early. Figured out which direction the dragons would be coming from. They picked a spot, behind some cliff things, then lay in wait. When the dragons went past, Euron and co. were in the blind spot, so they lined up the shot carefully, and fired. Euron took the first shot, a couple of others followed his lead. They nailed the target. I really don't think I am reaching here!
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