Very interesting thread, just caught up with the last few pages.
I was talking to a mate the other night who had an interesting POV re the reason that he doesn't want immigrants in the UK, and I suspect that there are many more UK wide who would agree, and that is 'that he just doesn't want them here'. He went on to say that he does not hate people from other countries or wish them any harm, he does not hold extreme right wing views, his politics are generally centre with a slight swing to the left, he just does not want anymore in the UK.
When you hear that its hard to put any reasoned argument as to why immigration is a positive for the UK.
Very interesting thread, just caught up with the last few pages.
I was talking to a mate the other night who had an interesting POV re the reason that he doesn't want immigrants in the UK, and I suspect that there are many more UK wide who would agree, and that is 'that he just doesn't want them here'. He went on to say that he does not hate people from other countries or wish them any harm, he does not hold extreme right wing views, his politics are generally centre with a slight swing to the left, he just does not want anymore in the UK.
When you hear that its hard to put any reasoned argument as to why immigration is a positive for the UK.
Oh yes he doesn't read The Mail either.
Could argue that a reasoned argument isn't needed because "I just don't want them here" isn't one itself.
Whilst I am pro immigration, I fully accept that changes have to be made and am against the system as it stands. However to really deal with the problem would mean getting Brits to get off their asses and be prepared to do the jobs they think are beneath them and which the immigrants are happy to fill because they haven't been mollycoddled by the state for so long. Also getting enough "Brits" educated and qualified and wanting to fill jobs that are needed and that again we need to fill with others.
The immigration "problems" stem from political systems already in place and the attitude of the population, not the other way around.
Migrants don't just do the 'jobs brits won't do'. An accountancy job at our place recently received 72 applications - from mostly qualified british people. It was awarded to a Bulgarian (and lovely she is too).
But decent people spend a fortune getting off thier arse and getting qualified in a profession and now face all this extra competition, from people who have only relatively recently rocked up in the Country.
I think it's a huge issue in Accountancy - one only needs to attend an exam sitting to see the huge numbers of those evidently not born here.
So its not exclusively a case of 'they're only doing/taking jobs ours won't do'.
Of interest too, I think, is the number of Brits living permanently abroad. Different reports quote different numbers but, broadly, there's around 5.5mn of us it seems. 1.3mn in Australian alone. Then there's 0.75mn in the USA, 0.7mn in Canada and 0.3mn in New Zealand. In Europe, there are 0.4mn in Spain, 0.25mn in Ireland, 0.2mn in France and 0.1mn in both Germany and Italy. There are 4 Brits in San Marino and even 294 living in North Korea.
I don't think our infrastructure could cope if they all came home, that's for sure!
Why would making our own immigration rules stricter, force those people back? It would certainly have no influence on me, it's not as if China can make their rules and stricter in response.
It wouldn't, however those in mainland Europe could be deported back to the UK if we were to leave the EU (depending on how long they've been a resident there).
Why is that? Stopping further open immigration from the EU does not entail deporting existing residents.
Well freedom of movement across Europe is part of the European Union. For example any of us could reside in any European country we choose to without the need for a VISA. If we were to stop open immigration from the EU we would either have to agree a deal with the EU, who we know are notoriously stubborn, or leave altogether.
If we were to pull out of freedom of movement those British citizens residing in EU member states would either have to apply for a VISA in their respective countries (which the country could refuse, especially if tensions are fraught due to Britain making bold statements about disregarding one of the main aspects of the EU), apply for residency (provided they are eligible), or return home.
It isn't as black and white as saying this will or this won't happen if we limit or stop freedom of movement or leave the EU. There are a whole variety of possibilities, this just happens to be one of them, hence my use of the word could. The fact of the matter is nobody can say for definite what will happen.
Very interesting thread, just caught up with the last few pages.
I was talking to a mate the other night who had an interesting POV re the reason that he doesn't want immigrants in the UK, and I suspect that there are many more UK wide who would agree, and that is 'that he just doesn't want them here'. He went on to say that he does not hate people from other countries or wish them any harm, he does not hold extreme right wing views, his politics are generally centre with a slight swing to the left, he just does not want anymore in the UK.
When you hear that its hard to put any reasoned argument as to why immigration is a positive for the UK.
Oh yes he doesn't read The Mail either.
Could argue that a reasoned argument isn't needed because "I just don't want them here" isn't one itself.
Whilst I am pro immigration, I fully accept that changes have to be made and am against the system as it stands. However to really deal with the problem would mean getting Brits to get off their asses and be prepared to do the jobs they think are beneath them and which the immigrants are happy to fill because they haven't been mollycoddled by the state for so long. Also getting enough "Brits" educated and qualified and wanting to fill jobs that are needed and that again we need to fill with others.
The immigration "problems" stem from political systems already in place and the attitude of the population, not the other way around.
Indeed Jolly, however that's not going to stop people thinking that way and voting accordingly.
Migrants don't just do the 'jobs brits won't do'. An accountancy job at our place recently received 72 applications - from mostly qualified british people. It was awarded to a Bulgarian (and lovely she is too).
But decent people spend a fortune getting off thier arse and getting qualified in a profession and now face all this extra competition, from people who have only relatively recently rocked up in the Country.
I think it's a huge issue in Accountancy - one only needs to attend an exam sitting to see the huge numbers of those evidently not born here.
So its not exclusively a case of 'they're only doing/taking jobs ours won't do'.
This might no longer be relevant .. BUT .. a few years ago I was doing some IT work for an accountancy firm in Gower Street. The firm employed three first year trainees, all from East Europe, all female, two Bosnians and a Croat, this was before Croatia was an EU member. There was a lot of ill feeling amongst the other staff members because all three were being subsidised through an EEC training grant paid to the employers and to the accountancy examination bodies, the grants designed to help former Yugoslavians adapt to life in another country .. they were all being educated and trained for free whereas the British trainees had to pay for their exams and of course were more expensive for the firm to employ. So much for 'level playing fields' .. I do not know if there are similar schemes in place today
I remember the days when we used to have a Labour party in this country. It was destroyed in the 70's by Callaghan, then laid to rest by Foot.
The Eton boys then realised that if they were to also run that party, there would be no-one left to represent the riff-raff, so they could just get on with running the country to benefit themselves and sell off anything that wasn't bolted down. New Labour = Old Tory.............
It seems now free movement across 4 of the Common Wealth countries is being discussed, with countries like Canada selling passport as if they had been candy, it would make that an insane move.
It seems now free movement across 4 of the Common Wealth countries is being discussed, with countries like Canada selling passport as if they had been candy, it would make that an insane move.
I've heard whispers about that. In that case of it happening I would move to Canada in a heartbeat.
It seems now free movement across 4 of the Common Wealth countries is being discussed, with countries like Canada selling passport as if they had been candy, it would make that an insane move.
I remember the days when we used to have a Labour party in this country. It was destroyed in the 70's by Callaghan, then laid to rest by Foot.
The Eton boys then realised that if they were to also run that party, there would be no-one left to represent the riff-raff, so they could just get on with running the country to benefit themselves and sell off anything that wasn't bolted down. New Labour = Old Tory.............
There is a lot of truth in the differences between the parties not being as great as they once were. I think the electoral system and where the key votes are to be found sort of dictates this more than anything.
I think we have just reached a new consensus between the parties & the electorate similar to that in place between 1945 and the mid 70s. The left has won the culture wars (race, sexuality, abortion) when the Tories realised society had changed and they would never win an election if they opposed a permissive society already well-established. The right has won the economic debate (regulated free market, no nationalisation) when Labour realised they would never win an election on the basis of red-blooded socialism.
So for all the sound and fury, there's really not that much difference between any of the parties which is why UKIP and the Greens can make inroads.
I think we have just reached a new consensus between the parties & the electorate similar to that in place between 1945 and the mid 70s. The left has won the culture wars (race, sexuality, abortion) when the Tories realised society had changed and they would never win an election if they opposed a permissive society already well-established. The right has won the economic debate (regulated free market, no nationalisation) when Labour realised they would never win an election on the basis of red-blooded socialism.
So for all the sound and fury, there's really not that much difference between any of the parties which is why UKIP and the Greens can make inroads.
The main battle between the Tories and Labour is what is the acceptable number of people being left to live the rest of their lives on benefits or at the taxpayers expense. The Tories want to decrease this number, Labour want to increase it. The SNP want to increase it north of the border at the expense of those south of the border. The LibDems don't care as long as all the jobless get free university education. UKIP doesn't care as long as they're all British. The Greens don't care as long as they're free to join ISIS.
I think we have just reached a new consensus between the parties & the electorate similar to that in place between 1945 and the mid 70s. The left has won the culture wars (race, sexuality, abortion) when the Tories realised society had changed and they would never win an election if they opposed a permissive society already well-established. The right has won the economic debate (regulated free market, no nationalisation) when Labour realised they would never win an election on the basis of red-blooded socialism.
So for all the sound and fury, there's really not that much difference between any of the parties which is why UKIP and the Greens can make inroads.
The main battle between the Tories and Labour is what is the acceptable number of people being left to live the rest of their lives on benefits or at the taxpayers expense. The Tories want to decrease this number, Labour want to increase it. The SNP want to increase it north of the border at the expense of those south of the border. The LibDems don't care as long as all the jobless get free university education. UKIP doesn't care as long as they're all British. The Greens don't care as long as they're free to join ISIS.
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I was talking to a mate the other night who had an interesting POV re the reason that he doesn't want immigrants in the UK, and I suspect that there are many more UK wide who would agree, and that is 'that he just doesn't want them here'.
He went on to say that he does not hate people from other countries or wish them any harm, he does not hold extreme right wing views, his politics are generally centre with a slight swing to the left, he just does not want anymore in the UK.
When you hear that its hard to put any reasoned argument as to why immigration is a positive for the UK.
Oh yes he doesn't read The Mail either.
Whilst I am pro immigration, I fully accept that changes have to be made and am against the system as it stands. However to really deal with the problem would mean getting Brits to get off their asses and be prepared to do the jobs they think are beneath them and which the immigrants are happy to fill because they haven't been mollycoddled by the state for so long. Also getting enough "Brits" educated and qualified and wanting to fill jobs that are needed and that again we need to fill with others.
The immigration "problems" stem from political systems already in place and the attitude of the population, not the other way around.
If we were to pull out of freedom of movement those British citizens residing in EU member states would either have to apply for a VISA in their respective countries (which the country could refuse, especially if tensions are fraught due to Britain making bold statements about disregarding one of the main aspects of the EU), apply for residency (provided they are eligible), or return home.
It isn't as black and white as saying this will or this won't happen if we limit or stop freedom of movement or leave the EU. There are a whole variety of possibilities, this just happens to be one of them, hence my use of the word could. The fact of the matter is nobody can say for definite what will happen.
There was a lot of ill feeling amongst the other staff members because all three were being subsidised through an EEC training grant paid to the employers and to the accountancy examination bodies, the grants designed to help former Yugoslavians adapt to life in another country .. they were all being educated and trained for free whereas the British trainees had to pay for their exams and of course were more expensive for the firm to employ. So much for 'level playing fields' .. I do not know if there are similar schemes in place today
The Eton boys then realised that if they were to also run that party, there would be no-one left to represent the riff-raff, so they could just get on with running the country to benefit themselves and sell off anything that wasn't bolted down. New Labour = Old Tory.............
I've heard whispers about that. In that case of it happening I would move to Canada in a heartbeat.
So for all the sound and fury, there's really not that much difference between any of the parties which is why UKIP and the Greens can make inroads.