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Poor return on the money in the English game

cabblescabbles
in Other Football and Sports
I might be writing this a bit prematurely given Man City have yet to play in the CL, but if they do go out, it means the Premiership doesn't have a sole club in the last 8. Add to the fact that the Premiership has just announced a record breaking TV deal, I think it is piss poor we might not even have 1 club in the QFs. What the hell is going on? I keep hearing about how the Premiership is the best and most entertaining league in the world, so where are our giants in the CL?

The national team had one of their worst world cup campaigns only last year, and I think only a few of our national players would have a chance of getting into other top national teams.

I don't really have an overriding point to this discussion, just that I am amazed players are getting paid the current level of money they are receiving, and we have nothing to show for it domestically or internationally.

So many examples. Sunderland this week and Poyet. Yes I think he wasn't cut out for the job but some of the players just seem to slip under the radar. The mercenary Defoe who demands £70k a week wages, I don't know if he's even scored for them yet. The ex Man Utd players like O'Shea and Wes Brown, brought up under the tutelage of the greatest of them all in Ferguson, just making up the numbers.

Raheem Sterling who thinks that at the age of 21 he can dictate to Liverpool he wants a mega deal and will wait to see if anyone better comes in. Sorry Raheem, what have you won in your career to date? How many England goals have you scored? How many CL league goals have you scored in big, big games? I'm just baffled as to how under performance across the whole of our domestic game is pretty much irrelevant when it comes to how much money you can earn.

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Comments

  • Henry IrvingHenry Irving
    Compared to the players of PSG, Barca and Real etc etc who work for minimum wage.

    Nothing to do with how much they get paid.

    Paying them less or more won't make them better players.

    If people want to believe the Sky/Premier League myth of best league in the world then fine but only if you do do you then expect the PL clubs to sweep all before them.
  • iaitchiaitch
    Maybe the players believe the Sky hype and think they just have to turn up rather than putting in a performance.
  • cabblescabbles
    Henry Irving said:

    Compared to the players of PSG, Barca and Real etc etc who work for minimum wage.

    Nothing to do with how much they get paid.

    Paying them less or more won't make them better players.

    If people want to believe the Sky/Premier League myth of best league in the world then fine but only if you do do you then expect the PL clubs to sweep all before them.

    But have we really got value for money? You can't tell me that potentially having no clubs in the last 8 of the CL is a good reflection on England/us/the Premiership/whoever. Athletico Madrid are a great example. For years they have been producing decent players/teams, probably at a fraction of the cost that our best have to offer. It just seems that we are actually going backward, and I think the amount of money that is available to players is a major part of that.

    You can't tell me that for youngsters of the age of 16/17, getting the figures that they can now is doing the game any good. It will definitely impact upon hunger and desire.
  • stevedixonstevedixon
    The tv rights deal that was announced recently must be one of the great card tricks of all time. £10m per game? Burnley v West Brom? Seriously? But it doesn't mean the 'product' (horrible word) is any good
  • DRAddickDRAddick
    edited March 2015
    The PL is the most popular and biggest earning league throughout the world directly because it isn't technically the best. It is more exciting often because there are mistakes, and there are more possibilities of upsets or at least close games involving the teams at the bottom which you don't really get in the better leagues. Plus the big teams have had international success over the years.

    The FA are happy with how things are, they're raking it in along with the PL, and couldn't care less about English football in general or how the England team do.
  • AbsurdistanAbsurdistan
    Bit harsh, 2 teams went out on away goals but were the better teams over both legs.
    However have to agree that what these players earn is obscene.
  • BigRedEvilBigRedEvil
    English clubs have been very poor in Europe as they were last season.

    I hope Italy catch up in the coefficients resulting in England only getting 3 CL places in the future.
  • AlgarveaddickAlgarveaddick
    BigRedEvil said:

    English clubs have been very poor in Europe as they were last season.

    I hope Italy catch up in the coefficients resulting in England only getting 3 CL places in the future.

    Until we finish fourth... :wink:
  • DippenhallDippenhall
    I'd be the last one to make excuses, but looking for a few, isn't knock out football a different game to league football. Look at our FA cup, five teams left and only three in the Premiership. Should be five Premiership teams if knockout wasn't different to league competition. Also European sides seem better at coping with pressure.

    Would I want to watch Barcelona each week or a season of Champions League football - not really.
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  • HexHex
    Money speaks so the PL must be the most entertaining and competitive league in the world. But the price for that is every match (almost) requires you to play your best team which inevitably takes its toll as the season progresses and CL reaches the knock-out stages. So the players are not quite at 100% physically and mentally which causes PL teams in europe to find it tougher and similarly the national team in summer competitions.
  • ForeverAddicktedForeverAddickted
    I love a quote from Bayern Munich...

    They claimed that they COULD charge £300 per season ticket but instead charge £100, the reason being is that they'd gain £2m per year if they charged £300 but in all seriousness £2m to them is nothing so there is no point.

    In the world that is the Premier League these days even £1m is nothing to these clubs now
  • LincsaddickLincsaddick
    edited March 2015
    A generalisation .. the best players in the world right now are South Americans and Germans .. the S Americans love to play in Spain and Portugal, similar cultures and climates to their homelands .. the Germans mostly like to stay in Germany .. the English clubs get to sign these players when they are no longer wanted in the other European Leagues or their clubs want to cash in on the ridiculous fees and salaries that English clubs are prepared to pay .... England gets the good second hand players and/or the not quite thoroughbred youngsters .. whatever, they are all paid very very well

    The premier League is by no means the most cultured or skilful league in the world, but I would wager that at the moment it's the most exciting, the fastest and the most aggressive .. also the most open, but that is changing as the Manc clubs and Chelsea are more and more coming to monopolise the Prem title and the most expensive players.
    As I type this I'm watching Barcelona v Man City .. the amount of diving and play acting by Barca is ridiculous, as is the referees' reaction to it, falling for it every time .. this way of playing is commonplace in Europe and alas is getting more prevalent in England.
  • AbsurdistanAbsurdistan
    ForeverAddickted said:

    I love a quote from Bayern Munich...

    They claimed that they COULD charge £300 per season ticket but instead charge £100, the reason being is that they'd gain £2m per year if they charged £300 but in all seriousness £2m to them is nothing so there is no point.

    In the world that is the Premier League these days even £1m is nothing to these clubs now

    Bl@@dy hell, just checked.........you can even get a season ticket at Barca for £100ish.
    Rip off Britain.
    Ps Charlton were mentioned as having the cheapest ST in the football league but of course that is unpopular with those paying more.
  • Bryan_KynsieBryan_Kynsie
    Hex said:

    Money speaks so the PL must be the most entertaining and competitive league in the world. But the price for that is every match (almost) requires you to play your best team which inevitably takes its toll as the season progresses and CL reaches the knock-out stages. So the players are not quite at 100% physically and mentally which causes PL teams in europe to find it tougher and similarly the national team in summer competitions.

    Bloody heck... You almost had me crying into my Bovril. The poor dears are not quite 100 per cent? At that sort of money they should be. Your sort of attitude just fuels the ridiculous inflation of both player wages and opinion of the quality of the PL.
  • RothkoRothko
    The co efficient won't be a worry for a couple of years, but Juve going far quarters is probably not what the Premier League wanted. Needs Everton to win the Europa League to take the pain away.
  • PragueAddickPragueAddick
    Mortimerician said:

    Hex said:

    Money speaks so the PL must be the most entertaining and competitive league in the world. But the price for that is every match (almost) requires you to play your best team which inevitably takes its toll as the season progresses and CL reaches the knock-out stages. So the players are not quite at 100% physically and mentally which causes PL teams in europe to find it tougher and similarly the national team in summer competitions.

    Daft thinking. Chelsea have run away with the EPL this year, it's about as competitive as the SPL. The argument that the league is so great that it's too difficult for the overpaid club and national players is the sort of wrong-thinking that has helped to encourage failure. When the German national team did badly they didn't go "oh this must have gone wrong because we are so great", they figured out what the problems were and dealt with them. And that is why they'll always be ahead.
    Exactly. I heard this morning the first bleating about FFP as an excuse. It's not a problem for the German clubs since they've all been obliged to invest like hell in academies and have a production line of great home grown players, who also then go on to enrich the national team.


  • cabblescabbles
    PragueAddick said:

    Mortimerician said:

    Hex said:

    Money speaks so the PL must be the most entertaining and competitive league in the world. But the price for that is every match (almost) requires you to play your best team which inevitably takes its toll as the season progresses and CL reaches the knock-out stages. So the players are not quite at 100% physically and mentally which causes PL teams in europe to find it tougher and similarly the national team in summer competitions.

    Daft thinking. Chelsea have run away with the EPL this year, it's about as competitive as the SPL. The argument that the league is so great that it's too difficult for the overpaid club and national players is the sort of wrong-thinking that has helped to encourage failure. When the German national team did badly they didn't go "oh this must have gone wrong because we are so great", they figured out what the problems were and dealt with them. And that is why they'll always be ahead.
    Exactly. I heard this morning the first bleating about FFP as an excuse. It's not a problem for the German clubs since they've all been obliged to invest like hell in academies and have a production line of great home grown players, who also then go on to enrich the national team.


    And I worry that we're investing in our academies but only to bring the best of the rest of the world through, not homegrown English players. I just want success with English players at English clubs. I'm immensely proud of the likes of Solly, Cousins etc. Good English players do exist, I really do not understand why clubs haven't focused on their academies in the past.

    Chelsea's is ridiculous. They have about 20 odd players out on loan to other clubs in Europe and the UK, yet Mourinho reckons they should abolish it given the lack of names breaking through. To the point they went out and bought Kurt Zouma. Do they not have any players of that age in that position that can step up????

    I just want it to change so badly
  • HexHex
    Bryan_Kynsie said:

    Hex said:

    Money speaks so the PL must be the most entertaining and competitive league in the world. But the price for that is every match (almost) requires you to play your best team which inevitably takes its toll as the season progresses and CL reaches the knock-out stages. So the players are not quite at 100% physically and mentally which causes PL teams in europe to find it tougher and similarly the national team in summer competitions.

    Bloody heck... You almost had me crying into my Bovril. The poor dears are not quite 100 per cent? At that sort of money they should be. Your sort of attitude just fuels the ridiculous inflation of both player wages and opinion of the quality of the PL.
    Read what I said. If the German and Spanish 'product' is better then why are their TV deals lower ? I certainly didn't say the PL was higher quality (whatever the measure of that is ?) nor do I believe it should be used as an excuse.
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  • FiiishFiiish
    The problem is is that the top UK teams play in arguably the toughest/most competitive division out of the major European leagues. All the teams not vying for top 4 are essentially in a relegation scrap from day one and the stakes are much higher than any other country. If you go down there's a good chance you won't be going back up for a long time, as we, a club that until our relegation would have easily been referred to as a Premier League mainstay, can attest to. Any other Champions League club will expect to walk away from the other non CL clubs in their division with 6 points and walk their domestic cups, which simply doesn't happen here. Arsenal's prima donnas have to go to hellholes like Burnley or Stoke either end of the week, have 7 shades of shreddies kicked out of them by overpaid thugs and then expect to beat the likes of Real Madrid in between?
  • seriously_redseriously_red
    edited March 2015
    Not so long ago wasn't there an all English club champions league final and one or two English clubs in the semi finals most years?

    Simple fact is that the TV deal in Italy and Spain is concentrated with a handful of clubs so they can snap up the very best.
    The FAPL shares the money across the league such that something like eight English clubs are in the Deloitte Euro top 20 rich list.

    Where else would a club like Man United with revenues of £500M struggle to qualify for the Champions Leagu?

    I think the footballing reasons for lack of English club success can be explored but the Deloitte list clearly shows that Madrid, Munich, Barcelona and PSG enjoy a €100-150M revenue advantage over Arsenal, Chelsea and Citeh. And that's a big difference.
  • Hovi's BiscuitHovi's Biscuit
    Hex said:

    Bryan_Kynsie said:

    Hex said:

    Money speaks so the PL must be the most entertaining and competitive league in the world. But the price for that is every match (almost) requires you to play your best team which inevitably takes its toll as the season progresses and CL reaches the knock-out stages. So the players are not quite at 100% physically and mentally which causes PL teams in europe to find it tougher and similarly the national team in summer competitions.

    Bloody heck... You almost had me crying into my Bovril. The poor dears are not quite 100 per cent? At that sort of money they should be. Your sort of attitude just fuels the ridiculous inflation of both player wages and opinion of the quality of the PL.
    Read what I said. If the German and Spanish 'product' is better then why are their TV deals lower ? I certainly didn't say the PL was higher quality (whatever the measure of that is ?) nor do I believe it should be used as an excuse.
    The premier league contains world famous 'brands' such as Man U, Liverpool, the Arse, etc.

    English clubs have a higher profile, which has been built up over the last 60 years or so. Clubs in the German and Spanish leagues will catch up though
  • colthe3rdcolthe3rd
    I genuinely do think that not having a winter break harms the English clubs in Europe. Quite a lot of these players have had little time off since summer 2014. The problem being that Sky won't let the FA or PL introduce one given how popular the games around Christmas are for most viewers.
  • RizzoRizzo
    Whilst we're not doing quite as well over the last couple of seasons, in the last 10 years of the Champions League, English teams make up more than a quarter of the quarter final places (22/80), which I don't think is too bad really!
  • FiiishFiiish
    It'd be interesting to see a breakdown of how many games each CL team is expected to play in a season both domestically and abroad, and in what timeframes they play them in. My guess would be English teams would play the most games in the shortest period of time.
  • ForeverAddicktedForeverAddickted
    colthe3rd said:

    I genuinely do think that not having a winter break harms the English clubs in Europe. Quite a lot of these players have had little time off since summer 2014. The problem being that Sky won't let the FA or PL introduce one given how popular the games around Christmas are for most viewers.

    Yup and a winter break is just gonna mean that Manchester City will go off to Dubai and play a friendly against Barcelona... thats the real reason they want it
  • AlgarveaddickAlgarveaddick
    Man City will play 51 matches this season, Barcelona at least 58.
  • PragueAddickPragueAddick
    edited March 2015
    seriously_red said:

    Not so long ago wasn't there an all English club champions league final and one or two English clubs in the semi finals most years?

    Simple fact is that the TV deal in Italy and Spain is concentrated with a handful of clubs so they can snap up the very best.
    The FAPL shares the money across the league such that something like eight English clubs are in the Deloitte Euro top 20 rich list.

    Where else would a club like Man United with revenues of £500M struggle to qualify for the Champions Leagu?

    I think the footballing reasons for lack of English club success can be explored but the Deloitte list clearly shows that Madrid, Munich, Barcelona and PSG enjoy a €100-150M revenue advantage over Arsenal, Chelsea and Citeh. And that's a big difference.

    I am very surprised to hear that in the case of Bayern and PSG because the national TV deals there are nowhere near as lucrative as the FAPL - which is what started this thread off. Bayern have an excellent off field commercial revenue profile, but PSG is just a plastic Paris club that the Qataris decided can be part of their global PR campaign. Does the Deloitte list show the breakdown of revenue sources?

    Edit - in the case of PSG, I guess huge sponsorship from a "commercial"organisation located not unadjacent to the UAE?
  • PragueAddickPragueAddick
    Fiiish said:

    The problem is is that the top UK teams play in arguably the toughest/most competitive division out of the major European leagues. All the teams not vying for top 4 are essentially in a relegation scrap from day one and the stakes are much higher than any other country. If you go down there's a good chance you won't be going back up for a long time, as we, a club that until our relegation would have easily been referred to as a Premier League mainstay, can attest to. Any other Champions League club will expect to walk away from the other non CL clubs in their division with 6 points and walk their domestic cups, which simply doesn't happen here. Arsenal's prima donnas have to go to hellholes like Burnley or Stoke either end of the week, have 7 shades of shreddies kicked out of them by overpaid thugs and then expect to beat the likes of Real Madrid in between?

    You are seriously underestimating the quality of the Bundesliga there. Sure there is now a huge gap between Bayern and the rest, but look at Dortmund's league position and they got as far as all the English clubs. Maybe the problem is less the "overpaid thugs" at Burnley, and more the "prima donnas" at Arsenal?
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