After working 22 yrs for o e company I took redundancy and invested 80% of what I had into starting a company
I have a mortgage that is far from being paid off
I have a loan that I pay off that I took to improve my house 6 yrs ago as o could not afford do it on my wages and our out goings
I have 3 kids one car and a dog, I work on average 100 hrs a week over a full 7 days
This enables my wife to stay at home and look after a 13 yr old boy who has adhd and dispractia (spelling) a five yr old girl and a 1 yr old boy
So I can try my hardest to make a better life for them
Now I consider that normal and I consider a labour gvmt not in favour of people like me
To say a labour gvmt is for normal people and conservatives for an elite group of people is just wrong
If I am not a normal UK ccitizen and it is not normal that people work hard to provide
Then wtf is normal
@nth london addick moving slightly away from your point if I may. As you run your own business, do you think Labour are good or bad for UK business. General question I know, but the reason I ask is you mention a Labour gvt wouldn't be good for yourself, and generally from what I read, the Tories are 'better' for business.
I'm just interested to garner views from people on such issues. My two Directors are very pro Tory, their general reasoning for this is that Labour can't be trusted with the economy, they always screw it up. Hope you don't mind me asking your thoughts?
Well said Dippenhall. There are large parts of Labour's pledges that are deeply unfair, it is just the burden of that unfairness falls heavily on those demonised by Labour and their allies in the media.
In your opinion. But in my opinion, and many others on here, that is simply not true.
I don't condone basing our country's economic policy on ideology over what is backed up by facts and expert analysis. But I suppose some people still believe that the world was made in 7 days for ideological reasons so I am aware that other opinions are out there.
To para phrase one of Obama's best lines in one of the debates during the last US elections 'The seventies are on the phone, they want their rhetoric back!'
You keep using phrases like ideology, hard leftist, socialist. I am guessing you went to college/uni 20 or 30 years ago. This rhetoric belongs in the post war era. Communism as a model for building a society has been tried and been found wanting. It is dead.
All modern democracies aspire to the versions in place in the US, Canada, Western Europe, parts of Eastern Europe and a few other countries dotted around the rest of the world. Whilst these societies are all unique and are continuously evolving they are all becoming more and more alike as the political debate has moved away from blindly following a particular ideology to one trying to find the right balance between the free market economy and state control and national economies and the the global economy, whilst at the same time protecting and recognising individual freedoms and civil liberties.
Actually you're wrong about me on pretty much all counts. I use words like ideology because this is the kind of politics Ed Miliband is trying to bring back - a return to Cold War era politics where policies were based on dogma rather than evidence. You can tell he is his father's son - no doubt many of his policies are based directly on what his father taught him. The mansion tax is similarly anachronistic. I have stated several times that I agree that the best approach is a mixture of free-market and state-led policies. I disagree with the ideology behind the right-to-buy as much as I disagree with the ideology behind the mansion tax. The difference is that when I post my reasons for disagreeing with a Labour policy, I get the same people over and over again posting barely coherent attacks, usually with nothing to do with what I've posted. At least most of the people on this thread are capable of disagreeing politely.
After working 22 yrs for o e company I took redundancy and invested 80% of what I had into starting a company
I have a mortgage that is far from being paid off
I have a loan that I pay off that I took to improve my house 6 yrs ago as o could not afford do it on my wages and our out goings
I have 3 kids one car and a dog, I work on average 100 hrs a week over a full 7 days
This enables my wife to stay at home and look after a 13 yr old boy who has adhd and dispractia (spelling) a five yr old girl and a 1 yr old boy
So I can try my hardest to make a better life for them
Now I consider that normal and I consider a labour gvmt not in favour of people like me
To say a labour gvmt is for normal people and conservatives for an elite group of people is just wrong
If I am not a normal UK ccitizen and it is not normal that people work hard to provide
Then wtf is normal
You misunderstood I never meant all normal people would be better off under labour as you're right there's not really a "normal" what I was stating was "normal" as in not super rich or on benefits but working people are having to use food banks and are seriously struggling. Normal was the wrong word and was just colloquially used I should have said average or working class.
I am amazed that the amount of time that the same people have to contribute paragraph upon paragraph to this thread. Get a bloody job you work shy buggers...
I am amazed that the amount of time that the same people have to contribute paragraph upon paragraph to this thread. Get a bloody job you work shy buggers...
it's not that simple though mate as I consider myself working class, no education due to my own stupid fault bought up on a council estate in sth London worked hard to get on the housing ladder under a tory gvmt who I never voted for, a wife who worked opposite shifts to me so we never saw much of each other, I witnessed under a labour gvmt who I did vote for twice it become so much easier for people not to work or get subsidised with benefits to not work full hrs to enable them to be at home with the kids without really losing out, where as I had to spend fortunes on child care so myself and wife could work
All the way through the explanation I have given I mentioned the word work, working class surely means working and labour should be for the working class but it really means non working class based on the definition
it's not that simple though mate as I consider myself working class, no education due to my own stupid fault bought up on a council estate in sth London worked hard to get on the housing ladder under a tory gvmt who I never voted for, a wife who worked opposite shifts to me so we never saw much of each other, I witnessed under a labour gvmt who I did vote for twice it become so much easier for people not to work or get subsidised with benefits to not work full hrs to enable them to be at home with the kids without really losing out, where as I had to spend fortunes on child care so myself and wife could work
All the way through the explanation I have given I mentioned the word work, working class surely means working and labour should be for the working class but it really means non working class based on the definition
To every grouping and stereotype and rule there are exceptions in this case you are one of them, and well done for your achievements you deserve respect for this and I hope no matter what you're not affected for the worse.
Must admit i've always failed to understand how the Conservative Party struggle to relate so well to the 'common working man'. One of the fundamental long-term policies of the Conservatives has been to adopt the approach of keeping tax as low as possible, so that the individual keeps as much as what they earn as possible (possibly at the sacrifice of generic public spending).
In an increasingly selfish and narrow-focused world, i can't understand how this policy doesn't win them more genuine support from the common working man (well, Norveners) than it does in comparison to Labour, who's fundamental long-term policy on this has been to adopt a higher tax ethos for greater public spending.
If you looked at it coldly, in this age you would expect the Conservative policy to be more appealing on an individual basis across the board than it is.
I am not spoiling to disagree at every aspect of what labour offers, far from it there are many things I wish they would do to go alongside their other principles that I find appealing in the manifesto
My main wish for them is that they did some how re discover their working class principles and make it a party who supports working to achieve
Must admit i've always failed to understand how the Conservative Party struggle to relate so well to the 'common working man'. One of the fundamental long-term policies of the Conservatives has been to adopt the approach of keeping tax as low as possible, so that the individual keeps as much as what they earn as possible (possibly at the sacrifice of generic public spending).
In an increasingly selfish and narrow-focused world, i can't understand how this policy doesn't win them more genuine support from the common working man (well, Norveners) than it does in comparison to Labour, who's fundamental long-term policy on this has been to adopt a higher tax ethos for greater public spending.
If you looked at it coldly, in this age you would expect the Conservative policy to be more appealing on an individual basis across the board than it is.
Anyone cleverer than me have an insight on this?
My only thought is that because the Conservatives tend to cut public sector services more deeply, these are services that the common working person rely on, or work in, hence it may work in their detriment.
After working 22 yrs for o e company I took redundancy and invested 80% of what I had into starting a company
I have a mortgage that is far from being paid off
I have a loan that I pay off that I took to improve my house 6 yrs ago as o could not afford do it on my wages and our out goings
I have 3 kids one car and a dog, I work on average 100 hrs a week over a full 7 days
This enables my wife to stay at home and look after a 13 yr old boy who has adhd and dispractia (spelling) a five yr old girl and a 1 yr old boy
So I can try my hardest to make a better life for them
Now I consider that normal and I consider a labour gvmt not in favour of people like me
To say a labour gvmt is for normal people and conservatives for an elite group of people is just wrong
If I am not a normal UK ccitizen and it is not normal that people work hard to provide
Then wtf is normal
After working 22 yrs for o e company I took redundancy and invested 80% of what I had into starting a company The Labour Party fights for and protects the rights of employees. Thanks to the Labour Party, statutory redundancy is a legal right.
In addition, the Labour Party has pledged to: - build a strong economic foundation, cutting the deficit every year with a surplus on the current budget and national debt falling as soon as possible in the next Parliament. - tackle rising business costs, by maintaining the most competitive corporation tax rate in the G7, cutting and then freezing business rates for more than 1.5 million small business properties and freezing their energy bills. - make it easier for firms to get the finance they need to grow and create jobs, by establishing a British Investment Bank with a mission to lend money to small- and medium-sized businesses and support a network of regional banks. - meet Britain’s long-term infrastructure needs by setting up an independent National Infrastructure Commission to plan for those needs and hold government to account. - tackle skills shortages, ensuring all young people study English and maths to 18 and introducing a gold standard vocational route, including a plan to create thousands of new apprenticeships. - support access to international markets by returning Britain to a leadership role in a reformed European Union.
I have a loan that I pay off that I took to improve my house 6 yrs ago as o could not afford do it on my wages and our out goings In order to help employees fund their day-to-day living costs and meet their own aspirations, the Labour Party has pledged to: - increase the National Minimum Wage to more than £8 an hour by October 2019 to help ensure that those doing a hard day’s work are rewarded for doing so. - ban exploitative zero-hours contracts so that anyone working regular hours for 12 weeks or more will have the right to a regular contract. This sort of job insecurity creates an unnecessary strain on family life. - promote the Living Wage by giving a tax rebate to companies that sign up to become Living Wage employers in the first year of the next Parliament. - require listed companies to report on whether or not they pay the Living Wage and use government procurement to encourage more employers to pay it, following the lead of Labour councils across the country.
I have 3 kids one car and a dog, I work on average 100 hrs a week over a full 7 days. This enables my wife to stay at home and look after a 13 yr old boy who has adhd and dispractia (spelling) a five yr old girl and a 1 yr old boy To help working families like yours, the Labour Party has pledged to:
- extend free childcare for working parents of three- and four-year-olds from 15 to 25 hours a week. - introduce a legal guarantee for parents of access to wraparound childcare from 8 a.m. to 6 p.m. through their local primary school. - underpin the guarantee of wraparound childcare with a new not-for-profit National Primary Childcare Service, matching primary schools with talented volunteers to increase the delivery of affordable and high quality extracurricular activities before and after school. - require Sure Start centres to offer childcare, opening up an extra 50,000 childcare places to families. And by ensuring that our children’s centres are used, we will help them to fulfil their role as hubs for family services in the community.
And to help people with health issues and demands, the Labour Party has pledged to:
- recruit 8,000 more GPs and 20,000 more nurses so we can provide what patients need most: an NHS with time to care. - guarantee a GP appointment within 48 hours, and on the same day for those who need it, to end the scandal of patients having to wait days, even weeks, for a GP appointment. - guarantee that patients wait no longer than one week for vital cancer tests and results by 2020. - create a Cancer Treatments Fund so patients have access to the latest drugs, surgery and radiotherapy. - repeal the Tories’ Health and Social Care Act to put the right values back at the heart of the health service: co-operation and collaboration, not competition and privatisation. - stop the drive towards privatisation, and where private companies are involved in providing clinical services we will cap their profits to ensure resources are spent on patient care. - integrate health & care services into a seamless system of whole-person care. This will bring together three fragmented services into a single service to meet all of a person’s care needs — physical, mental and social. - create a 21st-century health & care service
I ... try my hardest to make a better life for them Britain will only succeed when working people succeed. That is why the Labour Party has created a manifesto in the best interest of people like you. You work hard, look after your family, run a business. In short you do the right thing. That's why your interests are looked after by the Labour Party.
There are plenty of other manifesto items that Labour is committed to deliver. Some of them will be important to you, your business and your family, either now or in the future. Some won't. (I am guessing your house is valued at less than two million quid, so you needn't worry about the mansion tax. But, if I am honest, I don't think there's anything specific in there that is going to benefit your dog directly).
I don't expect that reading this will make you change the way you vote. But, come the 8th May, if a Labour Party is elected to lead the country, you - and, to Sadie's point, millions of people like you - will be front and centre of the Labour Government's thoughts, words, policies and actions.
If this country is going to make any progress in future, it will be directly due to people like you who make the difference. By running a business, owning a home, looking after a family and in many other ways, you demonstrate that you are right to be supported by a government. And I am very happy that the Labour Party has a wide-reaching, fully-costed, set of manifesto pledges. Every policy is paid for. Not one commitment requires additional borrowing.
The first Budget that the Labour Government announces will include one, very important line. The very first line. It will say "This Budget cuts the deficit every year". That's why the Labour Party will deliver what you need, what your family needs and what our country desperately needs.
Ed Miliband has pledged - in writing - to work every day to help build a country that works again for working people.
I disagree cables, the average working person uses less public services surely
I mean who is the average working person? the lines of distinction and categories are so blurred these days, we can't generalise. I was just trying to link AFKA's point about lack of support for the tories from the working man.
After working 22 yrs for o e company I took redundancy and invested 80% of what I had into starting a company
I have a mortgage that is far from being paid off
I have a loan that I pay off that I took to improve my house 6 yrs ago as o could not afford do it on my wages and our out goings
I have 3 kids one car and a dog, I work on average 100 hrs a week over a full 7 days
This enables my wife to stay at home and look after a 13 yr old boy who has adhd and dispractia (spelling) a five yr old girl and a 1 yr old boy
So I can try my hardest to make a better life for them
Now I consider that normal and I consider a labour gvmt not in favour of people like me
To say a labour gvmt is for normal people and conservatives for an elite group of people is just wrong
If I am not a normal UK ccitizen and it is not normal that people work hard to provide
Then wtf is normal
After working 22 yrs for o e company I took redundancy and invested 80% of what I had into starting a company The Labour Party fights for and protects the rights of employees. Thanks to the Labour Party, statutory redundancy is a legal right.
In addition, the Labour Party has pledged to: - build a strong economic foundation, cutting the deficit every year with a surplus on the current budget and national debt falling as soon as possible in the next Parliament. - tackle rising business costs, by maintaining the most competitive corporation tax rate in the G7, cutting and then freezing business rates for more than 1.5 million small business properties and freezing their energy bills. - make it easier for firms to get the finance they need to grow and create jobs, by establishing a British Investment Bank with a mission to lend money to small- and medium-sized businesses and support a network of regional banks. - meet Britain’s long-term infrastructure needs by setting up an independent National Infrastructure Commission to plan for those needs and hold government to account. - tackle skills shortages, ensuring all young people study English and maths to 18 and introducing a gold standard vocational route, including a plan to create thousands of new apprenticeships. - support access to international markets by returning Britain to a leadership role in a reformed European Union.
I have a loan that I pay off that I took to improve my house 6 yrs ago as o could not afford do it on my wages and our out goings In order to help employees fund their day-to-day living costs and meet their own aspirations, the Labour Party has pledged to: - increase the National Minimum Wage to more than £8 an hour by October 2019 to help ensure that those doing a hard day’s work are rewarded for doing so. - ban exploitative zero-hours contracts so that anyone working regular hours for 12 weeks or more will have the right to a regular contract. This sort of job insecurity creates an unnecessary strain on family life. - promote the Living Wage by giving a tax rebate to companies that sign up to become Living Wage employers in the first year of the next Parliament. - require listed companies to report on whether or not they pay the Living Wage and use government procurement to encourage more employers to pay it, following the lead of Labour councils across the country.
I have 3 kids one car and a dog, I work on average 100 hrs a week over a full 7 days. This enables my wife to stay at home and look after a 13 yr old boy who has adhd and dispractia (spelling) a five yr old girl and a 1 yr old boy To help working families like yours, the Labour Party has pledged to:
- extend free childcare for working parents of three- and four-year-olds from 15 to 25 hours a week. - introduce a legal guarantee for parents of access to wraparound childcare from 8 a.m. to 6 p.m. through their local primary school. - underpin the guarantee of wraparound childcare with a new not-for-profit National Primary Childcare Service, matching primary schools with talented volunteers to increase the delivery of affordable and high quality extracurricular activities before and after school. - require Sure Start centres to offer childcare, opening up an extra 50,000 childcare places to families. And by ensuring that our children’s centres are used, we will help them to fulfil their role as hubs for family services in the community.
And to help people with health issues and demands, the Labour Party has pledged to:
- recruit 8,000 more GPs and 20,000 more nurses so we can provide what patients need most: an NHS with time to care. - guarantee a GP appointment within 48 hours, and on the same day for those who need it, to end the scandal of patients having to wait days, even weeks, for a GP appointment. - guarantee that patients wait no longer than one week for vital cancer tests and results by 2020. - create a Cancer Treatments Fund so patients have access to the latest drugs, surgery and radiotherapy. - repeal the Tories’ Health and Social Care Act to put the right values back at the heart of the health service: co-operation and collaboration, not competition and privatisation. - stop the drive towards privatisation, and where private companies are involved in providing clinical services we will cap their profits to ensure resources are spent on patient care. - integrate health & care services into a seamless system of whole-person care. This will bring together three fragmented services into a single service to meet all of a person’s care needs — physical, mental and social. - create a 21st-century health & care service
I ... try my hardest to make a better life for them Britain will only succeed when working people succeed. That is why the Labour Party has created a manifesto in the best interest of people like you. You work hard, look after your family, run a business. In short you do the right thing. That's why your interests are looked after by the Labour Party.
There are plenty of other manifesto items that Labour is committed to deliver. Some of them will be important to you, your business and your family, either now or in the future. Some won't. (I am guessing your house is valued at less than two million quid, so you needn't worry about the mansion tax. But, if I am honest, I don't think there's anything specific in there that is going to benefit your dog directly).
I don't expect that reading this will make you change the way you vote. But, come the 8th May, if a Labour Party is elected to lead the country, you - and, to Sadie's point, millions of people like you - will be front and centre of the Labour Government's thoughts, words, policies and actions.
If this country is going to make any progress in future, it will be directly due to people like you who make the difference. By running a business, owning a home, looking after a family and in many other ways, you demonstrate that you are right to be supported by a government. And I am very happy that the Labour Party has a wide-reaching, fully-costed, set of manifesto pledges. Every policy is paid for. Not one commitment requires additional borrowing.
The first Budget that the Labour Government announces will include one, very important line. The very first line. It will say "This Budget cuts the deficit every year". That's why the Labour Party will deliver what you need, what your family needs and what our country desperately needs.
That's all well and good but the last Labour leader to win an election pretty much disregarded his written and spoken pledges and proceeded to ignore the needs and wants of the working population to bribe his chums and a base of those trapped in welfare dependency. Since Ed Miliband has gone back on his word several times during his tenure as Opposition Leader, I cannot reasonably expect him to keep any promises he makes if the worst happens and he does find himself in Downing Street.
Labour cannot realistically claim their manifesto is fully costed - it is so light on detail that they could make a hundred different budgets or policies and still reasonably claim that they've stuck to their spending plans. Everyone knows that the economy is one of their biggest weaknesses and they've done little to dispel this image.
That's all well and good but the last Labour leader to win an election pretty much disregarded his written and spoken pledges and proceeded to ignore the needs and wants of the working population to bribe his chums and a base of those trapped in welfare dependency. Since Ed Miliband has gone back on his word several times during his tenure as Opposition Leader, I cannot reasonably expect him to keep any promises he makes if the worst happens and he does find himself in Downing Street.
Labour cannot realistically claim their manifesto is fully costed - it is so light on detail that they could make a hundred different budgets or policies and still reasonably claim that they've stuck to their spending plans. Everyone knows that the economy is one of their biggest weaknesses and they've done little to dispel this image.
It's enjoyable debating with you. Because you rarely come up with anything to support your assertions; and you ignore anything that's provided as a counter-argument. But, for the sake of continuity, let me bite: what are some of the *specific* items that Ed Miliband has promised while Leader of the Opposition that he has subsequently reversed?
That's all well and good but the last Labour leader to win an election pretty much disregarded his written and spoken pledges and proceeded to ignore the needs and wants of the working population to bribe his chums and a base of those trapped in welfare dependency. Since Ed Miliband has gone back on his word several times during his tenure as Opposition Leader, I cannot reasonably expect him to keep any promises he makes if the worst happens and he does find himself in Downing Street.
Labour cannot realistically claim their manifesto is fully costed - it is so light on detail that they could make a hundred different budgets or policies and still reasonably claim that they've stuck to their spending plans. Everyone knows that the economy is one of their biggest weaknesses and they've done little to dispel this image.
It's enjoyable debating with you. Because you rarely come up with anything to support your assertions; and you ignore anything that's provided as a counter-argument. But, for the sake of continuity, let me bite: what are some of the *specific* items that Ed Miliband has promised while Leader of the Opposition that he has subsequently reversed?
This isn't Wikipedia - this is a thread discussing politics so I expect those contributing to the thread to at least read the news or inform themselves about current events, in the same way that those contributing to match-day threads should at least know what happened at the match, so I'm not going to cite sources for every assertion I make (also, no one else in the thread, including you, does this, so I think you're singling me out for personal reasons). Since you clearly don't read any news, or at least any news where the Labour Party is shown in a negative light, I will give you a one-off opportunity to enlighten yourself.
And I won't post that photo, but remember when Ed claimed he would stand up to Murdoch, then decided to get his photo taken grinning whilst holding up a copy of The Sun, Murdoch's best-selling paper?
I could post more but to be honest that's far more than anything you've ever posted to support your assertions.
I've read this thread with interest particularly NLA's contributions in discussion with Sadie.
What, from his description of himself, I would describe as the 'aspirational working class' are viewed with barely disguised contempt by the three major parties in my opinion and indeed thwarted in their ambitions if at all possible.
Why is this?
In simple terms a major plank of leftist ideology is authoritarian state control, however that is dressed up, hence anyone wanting to better themselves needs suppressing in order to keep them dependent. The Conservatives under Cameron, despite the rhetoric at election time, increasingly follow this path too. Cameron may have talked about 'right to buy' once more but the likelihood of that actually happening in reality is as great as his 'cast iron guarantee' of an EU referendum after the last election!
There was much wrong with Margaret Thatcher, signing the Single European Act and her contempt for the social fabric of traditional communities when presiding over the closure of traditional industries being just two examples, but those individuals who genuinely wanted to work and better themselves did get more opportunity than under other governments of my lifetime. Right To Buy enabled many people who never would have otherwise been able to become home owners by allowing long standing council tenants to pay as little as one third of the market value of their homes and thus get themselves out of state and local authority dependency.
The resulting independence of Home Ownership is arguably the flagship of aspiration but the desire for independence generally is the driver of aspiration.
That conflicts with those who want State control and more of it.
Chizz all the reasons why I voted labour during the start of new labour,
Unfortunately none of which actually happened
My statutory redundancy after working 22 yrs was 8235, my company redundancy bought that up to an amount that allowed investment plus the share option I had
Labour also were heavily involved in the tupe issue that resulted in many of my friends losing thousands of their redundancy and being transferred to a business that only values their service for a yr before it changes to.the new company policy
Labour like all parties failed on their commitment to me when I voted them in By lying and spending in trying to get all people to vote for them including those that don't wish to work and contribute, ( not those that genuinely can't) they contributed to a huge black hole in the financial infrastructure of the UK and failed to find the solution that would get us back on track) instead Gordon Brown created a policy and it was documented and got leaked then denied and accused those that questioned it of bigotry that to ensure and that is all it could have been for to ensure they stayed in power more non needed or required immigration with benefits would and could happen to gain the support of those who then could vote to ensure their party remained in power, or that's how I understood it,
Therefore spending more money on people and for people who don't won't and can't Contribute back in,
It created jobs for people where they weren't needed, and cost more money than the position paid back in its need or value THe only reason this could have been for is to create jobs reducing unemployment but without any return on the spend
It allowed lazy work shy people to abuse the benefits system which took money from those that needed it and made it very hard for businesses to employ people that once may have wanted to work but would be no better off financially in doing so, so.didn't and they had children that saw a benefit system that paid to not get employment
It also put a huge strain on the NHS and other services with the amount of people not contributing in tax but being allowed to use it
That's my experience of labour I may be a hundred miles away from what it says and to others view but that is how I saw it
My family voted labour my whole child life I voted labour from when I could until I believed they no longer represented me or what i believe is right for myself and others who actually do.believe in working to make a better life and to Pay in to a tax system that will allow me in my time of need to use its benefits, yet I now find it out of moneybags facing cuts to repair the damage done by the very people who criticise those cuts
The rest of your post is playing the man not the ball (which is happening too much on both sides in this thread).
Comments such as
"...my viewpoint is that it is only Labour who are making the right sounds about tackling poverty and making the country a fairer place to live."
"....I completely agree with everything they say,"
just need challenging by looking at deeds not words. If that is playing the man and is unfair I apologise, but I didn't know we were playing cricket.
If Labour abolished poverty they would lose their platform for getting votes. If the Tories abolish poverty they would increase their platform for getting votes. Which party has more to lose by increasing poverty?
Talking up poverty, telling you to feel poor and whipping up scapegoats is the message I get from Labour, not a desire to give people the means of aspiring to do better. The Labour machine just talks as if it is a 20th century socialist campaigner with a Hackney accent, but is run by suits that act the same as suits in every other government, apart from playing gesture politics to provide the mood music.
Falling for the talk is what I don't get.
And another thing, about gaps. When Labour talk about the gap between rich and poor it is hand wringing because the gap has got wider. As a percentage of GDP the poor are better off and the rich are better off, I suspect it is in similar proportion. When the national debt goes up by billions and the GDP goes up, relatively, at a matching rat, Labour then say the size of the actual debt is not important because GDP has gone/will go up by a similar proportion so it's OK to borrow now/in anticipation.
Why is a widening gap accepted as a normal arithmetical shift to be ignored in favour of relative values when looking at the ratio of debt and GDP; but not if looking at wealth comparisons?
I like consistency in my life and I don't like hypocrites, so Labour gives me a headache.
That's all well and good but the last Labour leader to win an election pretty much disregarded his written and spoken pledges and proceeded to ignore the needs and wants of the working population to bribe his chums and a base of those trapped in welfare dependency. Since Ed Miliband has gone back on his word several times during his tenure as Opposition Leader, I cannot reasonably expect him to keep any promises he makes if the worst happens and he does find himself in Downing Street.
Labour cannot realistically claim their manifesto is fully costed - it is so light on detail that they could make a hundred different budgets or policies and still reasonably claim that they've stuck to their spending plans. Everyone knows that the economy is one of their biggest weaknesses and they've done little to dispel this image.
It's enjoyable debating with you. Because you rarely come up with anything to support your assertions; and you ignore anything that's provided as a counter-argument. But, for the sake of continuity, let me bite: what are some of the *specific* items that Ed Miliband has promised while Leader of the Opposition that he has subsequently reversed?
This isn't Wikipedia - this is a thread discussing politics so I expect those contributing to the thread to at least read the news or inform themselves about current events, in the same way that those contributing to match-day threads should at least know what happened at the match, so I'm not going to cite sources for every assertion I make (also, no one else in the thread, including you, does this, so I think you're singling me out for personal reasons). Since you clearly don't read any news, or at least any news where the Labour Party is shown in a negative light, I will give you a one-off opportunity to enlighten yourself.
And I won't post that photo, but remember when Ed claimed he would stand up to Murdoch, then decided to get his photo taken grinning whilst holding up a copy of The Sun, Murdoch's best-selling paper?
I could post more but to be honest that's far more than anything you've ever posted to support your assertions.
OK, so thanks for the two fact-free Telegraph opinion pieces. I won't bother in future asking you to back up assertions with facts. But I also won't resort to petty name-calling either.
That's all well and good but the last Labour leader to win an election pretty much disregarded his written and spoken pledges and proceeded to ignore the needs and wants of the working population to bribe his chums and a base of those trapped in welfare dependency. Since Ed Miliband has gone back on his word several times during his tenure as Opposition Leader, I cannot reasonably expect him to keep any promises he makes if the worst happens and he does find himself in Downing Street.
Labour cannot realistically claim their manifesto is fully costed - it is so light on detail that they could make a hundred different budgets or policies and still reasonably claim that they've stuck to their spending plans. Everyone knows that the economy is one of their biggest weaknesses and they've done little to dispel this image.
It's enjoyable debating with you. Because you rarely come up with anything to support your assertions; and you ignore anything that's provided as a counter-argument. But, for the sake of continuity, let me bite: what are some of the *specific* items that Ed Miliband has promised while Leader of the Opposition that he has subsequently reversed?
This isn't Wikipedia - this is a thread discussing politics so I expect those contributing to the thread to at least read the news or inform themselves about current events, in the same way that those contributing to match-day threads should at least know what happened at the match, so I'm not going to cite sources for every assertion I make (also, no one else in the thread, including you, does this, so I think you're singling me out for personal reasons). Since you clearly don't read any news, or at least any news where the Labour Party is shown in a negative light, I will give you a one-off opportunity to enlighten yourself.
And I won't post that photo, but remember when Ed claimed he would stand up to Murdoch, then decided to get his photo taken grinning whilst holding up a copy of The Sun, Murdoch's best-selling paper?
I could post more but to be honest that's far more than anything you've ever posted to support your assertions.
OK, so thanks for the two fact-free Telegraph opinion pieces. I won't bother in future asking you to back up assertions with facts. But I also won't resort to petty name-calling either.
How were they fact-free? Would you like to post any evidence backing that up? Or do you just ignore sources if they don't match your warped view of the world.
Also I scanned my post and I couldn't see any name-calling. The only thing which is petty here is whenever the Labour Party's divine wisdom is questioned, you attack the character of the poster and never the post itself. It doesn't work and everyone knows what you're doing.
That's all well and good but the last Labour leader to win an election pretty much disregarded his written and spoken pledges and proceeded to ignore the needs and wants of the working population to bribe his chums and a base of those trapped in welfare dependency. Since Ed Miliband has gone back on his word several times during his tenure as Opposition Leader, I cannot reasonably expect him to keep any promises he makes if the worst happens and he does find himself in Downing Street.
Labour cannot realistically claim their manifesto is fully costed - it is so light on detail that they could make a hundred different budgets or policies and still reasonably claim that they've stuck to their spending plans. Everyone knows that the economy is one of their biggest weaknesses and they've done little to dispel this image.
It's enjoyable debating with you. Because you rarely come up with anything to support your assertions; and you ignore anything that's provided as a counter-argument. But, for the sake of continuity, let me bite: what are some of the *specific* items that Ed Miliband has promised while Leader of the Opposition that he has subsequently reversed?
This isn't Wikipedia - this is a thread discussing politics so I expect those contributing to the thread to at least read the news or inform themselves about current events, in the same way that those contributing to match-day threads should at least know what happened at the match, so I'm not going to cite sources for every assertion I make (also, no one else in the thread, including you, does this, so I think you're singling me out for personal reasons). Since you clearly don't read any news, or at least any news where the Labour Party is shown in a negative light, I will give you a one-off opportunity to enlighten yourself.
And I won't post that photo, but remember when Ed claimed he would stand up to Murdoch, then decided to get his photo taken grinning whilst holding up a copy of The Sun, Murdoch's best-selling paper?
I could post more but to be honest that's far more than anything you've ever posted to support your assertions.
OK, so thanks for the two fact-free Telegraph opinion pieces. I won't bother in future asking you to back up assertions with facts. But I also won't resort to petty name-calling either.
How were they fact-free? Would you like to post any evidence backing that up? Or do you just ignore sources if they don't match your warped view of the world.
Also I scanned my post and I couldn't see any name-calling. The only thing which is petty here is whenever the Labour Party's divine wisdom is questioned, you attack the character of the poster and never the post itself. It doesn't work and everyone knows what you're doing.
"I expect those contributing to the thread to at least read the news or inform themselves about current events..." "Since you clearly don't read any news..." "I will give you a one-off opportunity to enlighten yourself..." "...your warped view of the world". These are what I would refer to as petty.
I'll stop responding now, because this isn't going anywhere; but let me just put on record the fact I don't ever attack the character of reasonable posters here.
That's all well and good but the last Labour leader to win an election pretty much disregarded his written and spoken pledges and proceeded to ignore the needs and wants of the working population to bribe his chums and a base of those trapped in welfare dependency. Since Ed Miliband has gone back on his word several times during his tenure as Opposition Leader, I cannot reasonably expect him to keep any promises he makes if the worst happens and he does find himself in Downing Street.
Labour cannot realistically claim their manifesto is fully costed - it is so light on detail that they could make a hundred different budgets or policies and still reasonably claim that they've stuck to their spending plans. Everyone knows that the economy is one of their biggest weaknesses and they've done little to dispel this image.
It's enjoyable debating with you. Because you rarely come up with anything to support your assertions; and you ignore anything that's provided as a counter-argument. But, for the sake of continuity, let me bite: what are some of the *specific* items that Ed Miliband has promised while Leader of the Opposition that he has subsequently reversed?
This isn't Wikipedia - this is a thread discussing politics so I expect those contributing to the thread to at least read the news or inform themselves about current events, in the same way that those contributing to match-day threads should at least know what happened at the match, so I'm not going to cite sources for every assertion I make (also, no one else in the thread, including you, does this, so I think you're singling me out for personal reasons). Since you clearly don't read any news, or at least any news where the Labour Party is shown in a negative light, I will give you a one-off opportunity to enlighten yourself.
And I won't post that photo, but remember when Ed claimed he would stand up to Murdoch, then decided to get his photo taken grinning whilst holding up a copy of The Sun, Murdoch's best-selling paper?
I could post more but to be honest that's far more than anything you've ever posted to support your assertions.
You keep posting links to articles that you imply are 'evidence' and 'fact based proof' when in fact these articles are simply expressing opinions which you agree with.
Comments
theguardian.com/politics/2015/apr/21/nigel-farage-says-image-of-half-black-spokesman-shows-manifestos-diversity
I'm just interested to garner views from people on such issues. My two Directors are very pro Tory, their general reasoning for this is that Labour can't be trusted with the economy, they always screw it up. Hope you don't mind me asking your thoughts?
Kettle
x
All the way through the explanation I have given I mentioned the word work, working class surely means working and labour should be for the working class but it really means non working class based on the definition
In an increasingly selfish and narrow-focused world, i can't understand how this policy doesn't win them more genuine support from the common working man (well, Norveners) than it does in comparison to Labour, who's fundamental long-term policy on this has been to adopt a higher tax ethos for greater public spending.
If you looked at it coldly, in this age you would expect the Conservative policy to be more appealing on an individual basis across the board than it is.
Anyone cleverer than me have an insight on this?
I am not spoiling to disagree at every aspect of what labour offers, far from it there are many things I wish they would do to go alongside their other principles that I find appealing in the manifesto
My main wish for them is that they did some how re discover their working class principles and make it a party who supports working to achieve
The Labour Party fights for and protects the rights of employees. Thanks to the Labour Party, statutory redundancy is a legal right.
In addition, the Labour Party has pledged to:
- build a strong economic foundation, cutting the deficit every year with a surplus on the current budget and national debt falling as soon as possible in the next Parliament.
- tackle rising business costs, by maintaining the most competitive corporation tax rate in the G7, cutting and then freezing business rates for more than 1.5 million small business properties and freezing their energy bills.
- make it easier for firms to get the finance they need to grow and create jobs, by establishing a British Investment Bank with a mission to lend money to small- and medium-sized businesses and support a network of regional banks.
- meet Britain’s long-term infrastructure needs by setting up an independent National Infrastructure Commission to plan for those needs and hold government to account.
- tackle skills shortages, ensuring all young people study English and maths to 18 and introducing a gold standard vocational route, including a plan to create thousands of new apprenticeships.
- support access to international markets by returning Britain to a leadership role in a reformed European Union.
I have a loan that I pay off that I took to improve my house 6 yrs ago as o could not afford do it on my wages and our out goings
In order to help employees fund their day-to-day living costs and meet their own aspirations, the Labour Party has pledged to:
- increase the National Minimum Wage to more than £8 an hour by October 2019 to help ensure that those doing a hard day’s work are rewarded for doing so.
- ban exploitative zero-hours contracts so that anyone working regular hours for 12 weeks or more will have the right to a regular contract. This sort of job insecurity creates an unnecessary strain on family life.
- promote the Living Wage by giving a tax rebate to companies that sign up to become Living Wage employers in the first year of the next Parliament.
- require listed companies to report on whether or not they pay the Living Wage and use government procurement to encourage more employers to pay it, following the lead of Labour councils across the country.
I have 3 kids one car and a dog, I work on average 100 hrs a week over a full 7 days. This enables my wife to stay at home and look after a 13 yr old boy who has adhd and dispractia (spelling) a five yr old girl and a 1 yr old boy
To help working families like yours, the Labour Party has pledged to:
- extend free childcare for working parents of three- and four-year-olds from 15 to 25 hours a week.
- introduce a legal guarantee for parents of access to wraparound childcare from 8 a.m. to 6 p.m. through their local primary school.
- underpin the guarantee of wraparound childcare with a new not-for-profit National Primary Childcare Service, matching primary schools with talented volunteers to increase the delivery of affordable and high quality extracurricular activities before and after school.
- require Sure Start centres to offer childcare, opening up an extra 50,000 childcare places to families. And by ensuring that our children’s centres are used, we will help them to fulfil their role as hubs for family services in the community.
And to help people with health issues and demands, the Labour Party has pledged to:
- recruit 8,000 more GPs and 20,000 more nurses so we can provide what patients need most: an NHS with time to care.
- guarantee a GP appointment within 48 hours, and on the same day for those who need it, to end the scandal of patients having to wait days, even weeks, for a GP appointment.
- guarantee that patients wait no longer than one week for vital cancer tests and results by 2020.
- create a Cancer Treatments Fund so patients have access to the latest drugs, surgery and radiotherapy.
- repeal the Tories’ Health and Social Care Act to put the right values back at the heart of the health service: co-operation and collaboration, not competition and privatisation.
- stop the drive towards privatisation, and where private companies are involved in providing clinical services we will cap their profits to ensure resources are spent on patient care.
- integrate health & care services into a seamless system of whole-person care. This will bring together three fragmented services into a single service to meet all of a person’s care needs — physical, mental and social.
- create a 21st-century health & care service
I ... try my hardest to make a better life for them
Britain will only succeed when working people succeed. That is why the Labour Party has created a manifesto in the best interest of people like you. You work hard, look after your family, run a business. In short you do the right thing. That's why your interests are looked after by the Labour Party.
There are plenty of other manifesto items that Labour is committed to deliver. Some of them will be important to you, your business and your family, either now or in the future. Some won't. (I am guessing your house is valued at less than two million quid, so you needn't worry about the mansion tax. But, if I am honest, I don't think there's anything specific in there that is going to benefit your dog directly).
I don't expect that reading this will make you change the way you vote. But, come the 8th May, if a Labour Party is elected to lead the country, you - and, to Sadie's point, millions of people like you - will be front and centre of the Labour Government's thoughts, words, policies and actions.
If this country is going to make any progress in future, it will be directly due to people like you who make the difference. By running a business, owning a home, looking after a family and in many other ways, you demonstrate that you are right to be supported by a government. And I am very happy that the Labour Party has a wide-reaching, fully-costed, set of manifesto pledges. Every policy is paid for. Not one commitment requires additional borrowing.
The first Budget that the Labour Government announces will include one, very important line. The very first line. It will say "This Budget cuts the deficit every year". That's why the Labour Party will deliver what you need, what your family needs and what our country desperately needs.
Ed Miliband has pledged - in writing - to work every day to help build a country that works again for working people.
Labour cannot realistically claim their manifesto is fully costed - it is so light on detail that they could make a hundred different budgets or policies and still reasonably claim that they've stuck to their spending plans. Everyone knows that the economy is one of their biggest weaknesses and they've done little to dispel this image.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/may/17/liam-byrne-note-successor
Here's an article regarding Ed's various u-turns on his pledges whilst leader
Here's an article on Ed going back on his pledge on a matter of national security, then lying about it on national TV
And I won't post that photo, but remember when Ed claimed he would stand up to Murdoch, then decided to get his photo taken grinning whilst holding up a copy of The Sun, Murdoch's best-selling paper?
I could post more but to be honest that's far more than anything you've ever posted to support your assertions.
Wow, cant wait for the new utopia to arrive!
What, from his description of himself, I would describe as the 'aspirational working class' are viewed with barely disguised contempt by the three major parties in my opinion and indeed thwarted in their ambitions if at all possible.
Why is this?
In simple terms a major plank of leftist ideology is authoritarian state control, however that is dressed up, hence anyone wanting to better themselves needs suppressing in order to keep them dependent. The Conservatives under Cameron, despite the rhetoric at election time, increasingly follow this path too. Cameron may have talked about 'right to buy' once more but the likelihood of that actually happening in reality is as great as his 'cast iron guarantee' of an EU referendum after the last election!
There was much wrong with Margaret Thatcher, signing the Single European Act and her contempt for the social fabric of traditional communities when presiding over the closure of traditional industries being just two examples, but those individuals who genuinely wanted to work and better themselves did get more opportunity than under other governments of my lifetime. Right To Buy enabled many people who never would have otherwise been able to become home owners by allowing long standing council tenants to pay as little as one third of the market value of their homes and thus get themselves out of state and local authority dependency.
The resulting independence of Home Ownership is arguably the flagship of aspiration but the desire for independence generally is the driver of aspiration.
That conflicts with those who want State control and more of it.
Unfortunately none of which actually happened
My statutory redundancy after working 22 yrs was 8235, my company redundancy bought that up to an amount that allowed investment plus the share option I had
Labour also were heavily involved in the tupe issue that resulted in many of my friends losing thousands of their redundancy and being transferred to a business that only values their service for a yr before it changes to.the new company policy
Labour like all parties failed on their commitment to me when I voted them in By lying and spending in trying to get all people to vote for them including those that don't wish to work and contribute, ( not those that genuinely can't) they contributed to a huge black hole in the financial infrastructure of the UK and failed to find the solution that would get us back on track) instead Gordon Brown created a policy and it was documented and got leaked then denied and accused those that questioned it of bigotry that to ensure and that is all it could have been for to ensure they stayed in power more non needed or required immigration with benefits would and could happen to gain the support of those who then could vote to ensure their party remained in power, or that's how I understood it,
Therefore spending more money on people and for people who don't won't and can't Contribute back in,
It created jobs for people where they weren't needed, and cost more money than the position paid back in its need or value THe only reason this could have been for is to create jobs reducing unemployment but without any return on the spend
It allowed lazy work shy people to abuse the benefits system which took money from those that needed it and made it very hard for businesses to employ people that once may have wanted to work but would be no better off financially in doing so, so.didn't and they had children that saw a benefit system that paid to not get employment
It also put a huge strain on the NHS and other services with the amount of people not contributing in tax but being allowed to use it
That's my experience of labour I may be a hundred miles away from what it says and to others view but that is how I saw it
My family voted labour my whole child life I voted labour from when I could until I believed they no longer represented me or what i believe is right for myself and others who actually do.believe in working to make a better life and to Pay in to a tax system that will allow me in my time of need to use its benefits, yet I now find it out of moneybags facing cuts to repair the damage done by the very people who criticise those cuts
"...my viewpoint is that it is only Labour who are making the right sounds about tackling poverty and making the country a fairer place to live."
"....I completely agree with everything they say,"
just need challenging by looking at deeds not words. If that is playing the man and is unfair I apologise, but I didn't know we were playing cricket.
If Labour abolished poverty they would lose their platform for getting votes. If the Tories abolish poverty they would increase their platform for getting votes. Which party has more to lose by increasing poverty?
Talking up poverty, telling you to feel poor and whipping up scapegoats is the message I get from Labour, not a desire to give people the means of aspiring to do better. The Labour machine just talks as if it is a 20th century socialist campaigner with a Hackney accent, but is run by suits that act the same as suits in every other government, apart from playing gesture politics to provide the mood music.
Falling for the talk is what I don't get.
And another thing, about gaps. When Labour talk about the gap between rich and poor it is hand wringing because the gap has got wider. As a percentage of GDP the poor are better off and the rich are better off, I suspect it is in similar proportion. When the national debt goes up by billions and the GDP goes up, relatively, at a matching rat, Labour then say the size of the actual debt is not important because GDP has gone/will go up by a similar proportion so it's OK to borrow now/in anticipation.
Why is a widening gap accepted as a normal arithmetical shift to be ignored in favour of relative values when looking at the ratio of debt and GDP; but not if looking at wealth comparisons?
I like consistency in my life and I don't like hypocrites, so Labour gives me a headache.
Also I scanned my post and I couldn't see any name-calling. The only thing which is petty here is whenever the Labour Party's divine wisdom is questioned, you attack the character of the poster and never the post itself. It doesn't work and everyone knows what you're doing.
"Since you clearly don't read any news..."
"I will give you a one-off opportunity to enlighten yourself..."
"...your warped view of the world".
These are what I would refer to as petty.
I'll stop responding now, because this isn't going anywhere; but let me just put on record the fact I don't ever attack the character of reasonable posters here.