@seth plum The contrast between now and 12 months ago could not be clearer. Last year Poyet went across the Thames for statutory compensation after refusing a new deal whereas this summer we have Gomez and several others who could all command a significant fee.
I won't speculate on the amounts offered nor acceptable as we are in a very new scenario: increased FAPL media deal coming up, increased FFP loss limits and an owner with deep pockets who knows how to sell players.
I'm not sure why people think any sales proceeds might be "trousered" since loans into the club are running at about £10-12m a season to cover losses, player acquisition and paying off debts. No disrespect to those making such comments on here as this is simply a symptom of a lack of clear narrative from the board.
More and more whispers are suggesting that we might have a crack at the top six next time. We saw how to get there under Peeters last September / October, but staying there is very different challenge - just ask Forest, Derby and Wigan! The point is that other threads are dedicated to what it might take but as per the OP, Gomez departure might be the key to a sustainable push upwards?
And if you're worried about our ability to attract quality recruits? Well we are in a far better place than last May and the player acquisition here and at Liege last summer proved that the board can attract players of the right calibre. We now have a decent pitch, coach and track record.
Of course the narrative has not been explicit nor continuous but I went out on a limb last summer to state our clubs strategy was youth... Play them, coach them, buy them, sell them! Cousins, Fox, Vetokele, Pope, Gudmundsson, Gomez, and now Watt have all clearly contributed to our season, added to their experience and added to their market value!
Of course, Harriott (with his own thread) is the exception but that's still seven players under contract, under 23 each playing 30-40 games. Thus proving to us and the outside world that they are decent players and not relegation favourites. Which is where the bookies placed us last summer next to Rotherham, Millwall and Blackpool.
I think Seth that you have been vocal about the journey and the potential outcomes and detachment and that's fair enough because we haven't had a straight line. For me I could see what they were doing when the 2012-14 squad exited, but I was certainly vocal when Luzon was appointed. Not because he was appointed nor Peeters sacked but the comms farce around the episode made me extremely wary about what might happen next.
But none of that changes the underlying strategy: young decent players from the academy and abroad on decent contracts and a decent pitch. Some fans have a genuine fear or at least concern that this is a glorified shop window? But if it pays the bills and improves the squad then, for me, that's a price worth paying. It's the same at Arsenal, Southampton and Newcastle albeit they all have better players and bigger numbers.
And if we get to copy the sale and leaseback a la Imoh Ezekiel (can't use Zaha!) who went for €7m last summer then returned to Liege in January, then all the better.
It's a lot of change to digest: The model changes, the players change and the coach changes but they all wear our badge and we are going in the right direction. The table doesn't lie and we have finished six places higher this time. If that is repeated and we finish another six places higher next time then all good!
If we finish lower than 8th next time and simply can't stay in touch with the top six then one might question whether we are only a shop window and not a football club striving to improve and compete. Particularly when the FAPL / parachute monies exceed £150m which somewhat dwarfs any fee received for our top players.
The club are keeping their cards close to their chest but whispers of pushing on are coming out. Whether our first XI in August consists all of our best players today or not ( because some are gone) we will all know the direction and ambition in August. There will be no rhetoric nor hiding place which can mask the reality.
SR good post apologies for only just now having read it, so it would be inappropriate to go into too much detail.
One thing I know we agree on is that we must get the points, must get the results next season. In my view we must get 1.7 points per game as a minimum. Guy Luzon has achieved 1.3 points per game on his watch, so circumstances need to be such that we add 30% to everything we do in the enterprise. If we do, attendances would shift from about a 15k average, to a near 20k average which would mean the support would be hefting in too.
If I can use an analogy regarding players, and about one who I suspect will be leaving, but if Yoni Buyens scored about three extra goals that were not penalties, and got about four less yellow cards then that is the kind of improvement I would seek. If Tony Watt was 12% slimmer and 15% fitter then that too. In terms of signings I would look for a CB with the nous of TBH combined with the agility of Joe Gomez (agility being only a part of JoGo's game I would hasten to add).
Dave Brailsford talks about the aggregation of marginal gains and that is what I expect to see. The complacent attitude of the final two games of the season worries me though.
We are owned by a bloke so rich that rather than selling Gomez for £10M and taking a punt, why not take a £10M investment punt on the basis that next summer if it fails, he sells Gomez and recoups and if it wins, we still own Gomez in the EPL. Surely a better business punt?
If he goes, let him go to Chelsea and take him, Solanke, Rubun-Cheek and Palmer back on loan plus £10-12M.
We can speculate, but I'm reasonably comfortable thinking that:- - RD will not be mugged off - RD does not need to raise cash for a short term boost in revenues - All parties have a year to bide their time without losing any opportunities - JG seems level-headed and will do what's best for his long term career - JG having already signed a contract is not looking to jump ship as a last resort or a mid-career once in a lifetime opportunity - We are not looking like a wounded club attracting vultures wanting to make a kill - Only a deal that is good for RD, JG and a big club is likely to come to fruition - JG will be out on loan from a premier club whatever, so why would RD not insist on a sale and loan back. - A sale without a loan back will attract a much bigger price tag so why would the buying club not agree - The price tag will be driven by the desire of a big club to acquire an asset in short supply before anyone else rather than his value as a ready to play squad player.
So whatever happens, and I will be sad if we lose JG early in his career, I'm sure we will have a resolution that has its positives.
We can speculate, but I'm reasonably comfortable thinking that:- - RD will not be mugged off - RD does not need to raise cash for a short term boost in revenues - All parties have a year to bide their time without losing any opportunities - JG seems level-headed and will do what's best for his long term career - JG having already signed a contract is not looking to jump ship as a last resort or a mid-career once in a lifetime opportunity - We are not looking like a wounded club attracting vultures wanting to make a kill - Only a deal that is good for RD, JG and a big club is likely to come to fruition - JG will be out on loan from a premier club whatever, so why would RD not insist on a sale and loan back. - A sale without a loan back will attract a much bigger price tag so why would the buying club not agree - The price tag will be driven by the desire of a big club to acquire an asset in short supply before anyone else rather than his value as a ready to play squad player.
So whatever happens, and I will be sad if we lose JG early in his career, I'm sure we will have a resolution that has its positives.
Is a loan back preferable to a bigger fee and us being able to bring in a player that is fully developed in that position ?
I don’t imagine the loan back being an issue that pushes the price down. Another season, even possibly two in the Championship would benefit all parties and that taking place in an environment where the young player is comfortable would surely suit the buyer. That and the evidence that FC actually improved his game and became an Arsenal regular following a loan with us won’t do any harm.
I think we have a strong position as next year he is unlikely to be worth less. The sheer numbers of interested clubs show that he is a bit of a gem and a club like Man City doesn’t seem to mind paying a bit extra to get their man. I think we need to look for £8m plus add ons or £12m all in.
Whilst I am comfortable we won’t get mugged off – the next question is where the money will go. Will it go on a push for the premiership – of that we don’t know. It may partly go to other clubs or in the owner’s pocket. The riches the premiership offers has to be enticing though. I reckon this could allow us to bring in the kind of quality needed to go up automatically, if spent wisely.
I'd be asking a raw 13-15m for Gomez if I was RD, you don't get raw talents that are as experienced as JG at so many different levels at this age regularly, if he's cashing in he may as well cash in his chips at a good rate. If the big clubs decline then we carry on as we were with him. A centre half of his calibre and age you could get 20 years of play from him at a good level if all goes well.
It's pretty obvious to spot when we have a real talent playing for Charlton, Jonjo was one, now competing and competing well in the Premier League. Coquelin standing out in the same team that JG can stand out in, shrugging off players from other top 4 teams and a staple in Arsenals XI atm. 8m would be a mockery.
Also the price comes with an element of risk but that's the gamble with younger players, higher risk with higher reward.
I'd be asking a raw 13-15m for Gomez if I was RD, you don't get raw talents that are as experienced as JG at so many different levels at this age regularly, if he's cashing in he may as well cash in his chips at a good rate. If the big clubs decline then we carry on as we were with him. A centre half of his calibre and age you could get 20 years of play from him at a good level if all goes well.
It's pretty obvious to spot when we have a real talent playing for Charlton, Jonjo was one, now competing and competing well in the Premier League. Coquelin standing out in the same team that JG can stand out in, shrugging off players from other top 4 teams and a staple in Arsenals XI atm. 8m would be a mockery.
Also the price comes with an element of risk but that's the gamble with younger players, higher risk with higher reward.
I'd be asking a raw 13-15m for Gomez if I was RD, you don't get raw talents that are as experienced as JG at so many different levels at this age regularly, if he's cashing in he may as well cash in his chips at a good rate. If the big clubs decline then we carry on as we were with him. A centre half of his calibre and age you could get 20 years of play from him at a good level if all goes well.
It's pretty obvious to spot when we have a real talent playing for Charlton, Jonjo was one, now competing and competing well in the Premier League. Coquelin standing out in the same team that JG can stand out in, shrugging off players from other top 4 teams and a staple in Arsenals XI atm. 8m would be a mockery.
Also the price comes with an element of risk but that's the gamble with younger players, higher risk with higher reward.
£8m would be a mockery !
We're selling to a big club, even 'smaller' clubs pay big bucks.. Ross McCormack - circa £11m. Leroy Fer - circa £8m. Van Wolfswinkel - £8.5m + 1.5m add-ons. Konstantinos Mitroglou - £12m . These are players purchased by Fulham, QPR, Norwich. Different positions and experience but
Add in the beneficial (to us) English factor...
Us selling Carl Jenkinson for £1m says alot, once they clock the game time at a big club and settle in (JG has the talent for that) the price has multiplied tenfold.
I may be wrong but I'd shoot high with JG, I think we have to. We're not in a position that we NEED to sell him, as a club.
We don't need to sell him - if they want him now - they will probably get him cheaper than next season, when we might even be a Premiership club. That should be our bargaining position. If they all want to drop out fine, but we only need one of quite a few to bite.
I'd be asking a raw 13-15m for Gomez if I was RD, you don't get raw talents that are as experienced as JG at so many different levels at this age regularly, if he's cashing in he may as well cash in his chips at a good rate. If the big clubs decline then we carry on as we were with him. A centre half of his calibre and age you could get 20 years of play from him at a good level if all goes well.
It's pretty obvious to spot when we have a real talent playing for Charlton, Jonjo was one, now competing and competing well in the Premier League. Coquelin standing out in the same team that JG can stand out in, shrugging off players from other top 4 teams and a staple in Arsenals XI atm. 8m would be a mockery.
Also the price comes with an element of risk but that's the gamble with younger players, higher risk with higher reward.
£8m would be a mockery !
We're selling to a big club, even 'smaller' clubs pay big bucks.. Ross McCormack - circa £11m. Leroy Fer - circa £8m. Van Wolfswinkel - £8.5m + 1.5m add-ons. Konstantinos Mitroglou - £12m . These are players purchased by Fulham, QPR, Norwich. Different positions and experience but
Add in the beneficial (to us) English factor...
Us selling Carl Jenkinson for £1m says alot, once they clock the game time at a big club and settle in (JG has the talent for that) the price has multiplied tenfold.
I may be wrong but I'd shoot high with JG, I think we have to. We're not in a position that we NEED to sell him, as a club.
Fair enough, let's wait and see - all newspaper talk at the moment.
A crumb of comfort is that RD wasn't taken for a mug in the Delort shenanigans, he must have worked out JoGo's true value, and he is not desperate for the money is he? Unless money is needed to balance the books under FFP I suppose. I also agree that when the time is right, provided it is conducted in a dignified way with JoGo in the loop, that an auction, a bidding war, ought to be encouraged. Beyond this it is 11, eleven, days until JoGo is 18. Remember this. He is in absolutely the right place to continue his development, with international games at his level, combined with opportunities in a very competitive Championship. If it is only about the money for JoGo, then the message is that he will get double next year over what he is offered this. To me all the common sense factors suggest that JoGo ought to stay and gird his loins for the coming season at the Valley.
German giants Borussia Dortmund are trying to sign Charlton’s England prospect Joe Gomez.
England under-19s defender Gomez, 17, has also been a target for Arsenal but now Dortmund are in the hunt for the versatile youngster.
Dortmund are hoping to do a deal for around £1m with add-ons based on success and appearances.
Both Manchester City and Manchester United have previously shown interest in the youngster.
Gomez, who can play at right back or centre-back, made 24 appearances in his debut campaign.
£1m!?! Yeah, alright then.
Complete joke. We might as well give him away lol Add a zero and then the talking starts - if not, he is on a long contract and his value wont go down.
German giants Borussia Dortmund are trying to sign Charlton’s England prospect Joe Gomez.
England under-19s defender Gomez, 17, has also been a target for Arsenal but now Dortmund are in the hunt for the versatile youngster.
Dortmund are hoping to do a deal for around £1m with add-ons based on success and appearances.
Both Manchester City and Manchester United have previously shown interest in the youngster.
Gomez, who can play at right back or centre-back, made 24 appearances in his debut campaign.
£1m!?! Yeah, alright then.
Complete joke. We might as well give him away lol Add a zero and then the talking starts - if not, he is on a long contract and his value wont go down.
I'd love you to be right but I'd be staggered if the £8m came from anywhere other than Charlton trying to push the price up to £4m.
Time will tell but if the player makes enough noise about leaving I suspect we'd take a lot less than £10m. Maybe £1m with guaranteed addons will be the best deal we'll get.
Comments
One thing I know we agree on is that we must get the points, must get the results next season. In my view we must get 1.7 points per game as a minimum. Guy Luzon has achieved 1.3 points per game on his watch, so circumstances need to be such that we add 30% to everything we do in the enterprise. If we do, attendances would shift from about a 15k average, to a near 20k average which would mean the support would be hefting in too.
If I can use an analogy regarding players, and about one who I suspect will be leaving, but if Yoni Buyens scored about three extra goals that were not penalties, and got about four less yellow cards then that is the kind of improvement I would seek. If Tony Watt was 12% slimmer and 15% fitter then that too. In terms of signings I would look for a CB with the nous of TBH combined with the agility of Joe Gomez (agility being only a part of JoGo's game I would hasten to add).
Dave Brailsford talks about the aggregation of marginal gains and that is what I expect to see. The complacent attitude of the final two games of the season worries me though.
- RD will not be mugged off
- RD does not need to raise cash for a short term boost in revenues
- All parties have a year to bide their time without losing any opportunities
- JG seems level-headed and will do what's best for his long term career
- JG having already signed a contract is not looking to jump ship as a last resort or a mid-career once in a lifetime opportunity
- We are not looking like a wounded club attracting vultures wanting to make a kill
- Only a deal that is good for RD, JG and a big club is likely to come to fruition
- JG will be out on loan from a premier club whatever, so why would RD not insist on a sale and loan back.
- A sale without a loan back will attract a much bigger price tag so why would the buying club not agree
- The price tag will be driven by the desire of a big club to acquire an asset in short supply
before anyone else rather than his value as a ready to play squad player.
So whatever happens, and I will be sad if we lose JG early in his career, I'm sure we will have a resolution that has its positives.
I think we have a strong position as next year he is unlikely to be worth less. The sheer numbers of interested clubs show that he is a bit of a gem and a club like Man City doesn’t seem to mind paying a bit extra to get their man. I think we need to look for £8m plus add ons or £12m all in.
Whilst I am comfortable we won’t get mugged off – the next question is where the money will go. Will it go on a push for the premiership – of that we don’t know. It may partly go to other clubs or in the owner’s pocket. The riches the premiership offers has to be enticing though. I reckon this could allow us to bring in the kind of quality needed to go up automatically, if spent wisely.
It's pretty obvious to spot when we have a real talent playing for Charlton, Jonjo was one, now competing and competing well in the Premier League. Coquelin standing out in the same team that JG can stand out in, shrugging off players from other top 4 teams and a staple in Arsenals XI atm. 8m would be a mockery.
Also the price comes with an element of risk but that's the gamble with younger players, higher risk with higher reward.
Add in the beneficial (to us) English factor...
Us selling Carl Jenkinson for £1m says alot, once they clock the game time at a big club and settle in (JG has the talent for that) the price has multiplied tenfold.
I may be wrong but I'd shoot high with JG, I think we have to. We're not in a position that we NEED to sell him, as a club.
I also agree that when the time is right, provided it is conducted in a dignified way with JoGo in the loop, that an auction, a bidding war, ought to be encouraged.
Beyond this it is 11, eleven, days until JoGo is 18. Remember this. He is in absolutely the right place to continue his development, with international games at his level, combined with opportunities in a very competitive Championship. If it is only about the money for JoGo, then the message is that he will get double next year over what he is offered this.
To me all the common sense factors suggest that JoGo ought to stay and gird his loins for the coming season at the Valley.
German giants Borussia Dortmund are trying to sign Charlton’s England prospect Joe Gomez.
England under-19s defender Gomez, 17, has also been a target for Arsenal but now Dortmund are in the hunt for the versatile youngster.
Dortmund are hoping to do a deal for around £1m with add-ons based on success and appearances.
Both Manchester City and Manchester United have previously shown interest in the youngster.
Gomez, who can play at right back or centre-back, made 24 appearances in his debut campaign.
£1m!?! Yeah, alright then.
Time will tell but if the player makes enough noise about leaving I suspect we'd take a lot less than £10m. Maybe £1m with guaranteed addons will be the best deal we'll get.