Rather than a "random" selection from the database, should they not study the database and ensure that among those they invite they try to learn from some of those who have not renewed season tickets, gone to far fewer games, etc.?
From the season ticket shambles I'd say their database would be hard pressed to select anybody and get their address right, never mind analysing their match attendance!!
I think Airman Brown should hold the meeting with Meire and Murray. Everybody else can sit and watch.
Frankly, that's not a bad idea. Except, I'd say hire a decent barrister for the night, brief him/her on the issues beforehand and light the bluetouch paper. Sit back and enjoy KM being grilled by a professional.
Rather than a "random" selection from the database, should they not study the database and ensure that among those they invite they try to learn from some of those who have not renewed season tickets, gone to far fewer games, etc.?
From the season ticket shambles I'd say their database would be hard pressed to select anybody and get their address right, never mind analysing their match attendance!!
Yes, I'll probably get 2 invites, one for me and one for my identically named twin brother.
I simply propose that each fan group should send along an articulate supporter aged under 25. This would emphasise that concerns are very serious and go beyond those of us who have been around for a while.
Well...that escalated quickly from my last post!! I'm sure there's a pic out there somewhere for that!
I have just spent he afternoon in a meeting with two very large law firms on the brink of merging. My little brain, unfortunately, may struggle to understand the issues at stake here and perhaps I should turn down any potential invitation to be a "random supporter". I should probably not be reviewing docs for Prague/all of us anymore when it comes to the LLDC and OS either!
I have spent 30 years in one organisation and I abhor internal politics and avoid them like the plague. Probably explains why I only got so far, but it's far enough for me. For the same reason, I have avoided fan groups and other "clubs, associations, political groups and cliques"! Does that mean that I am uninterested and ignorant? (that's rhetorical by the way, so don't bother responding).
It has already been pointed out that there is a lot of arrogance and assumptions in some posts on here. It's wonderful that we have "active" supporters. I applaud them and I always have done. We wouldn't have seen some of the wonderful times recently without people like @Airman Brown and many others and I do not disregard the efforts that @razil put in for the Trust and certainly not @PragueAddick.
In the same way, I would be grateful if people did not disregard and put down supporters who are not members of any active group. With the best will in the world, they outnumber you by many thousands. Try seeing if they get involved in this and the outcomes and listen to them before dismissing them out of hand.
I think it's obvious there are many very intelligent and informed people outside the various groups and both on and off Charlton Life. The issue is whether selecting people at "random" - and I guarantee you it won't be that anyway - would be likely to identify any of them.
Well...that escalated quickly from my last post!! I'm sure there's a pic out there somewhere for that!
I have just spent he afternoon in a meeting with two very large law firms on the brink of merging. My little brain, unfortunately, may struggle to understand the issues at stake here and perhaps I should turn down any potential invitation to be a "random supporter". I should probably not be reviewing docs for Prague/all of us anymore when it comes to the LLDC and OS either!
I have spent 30 years in one organisation and I abhor internal politics and avoid them like the plague. Probably explains why I only got so far, but it's far enough for me. For the same reason, I have avoided fan groups and other "clubs, associations, political groups and cliques"! Does that mean that I am uninterested and ignorant? (that's rhetorical by the way, so don't bother responding).
It has already been pointed out that there is a lot of arrogance and assumptions in some posts on here. It's wonderful that we have "active" supporters. I applaud them and I always have done. We wouldn't have seen some of the wonderful times recently without people like @Airman Brown and many others and I do not disregard the efforts that @razil put in for the Trust and certainly not @PragueAddick.
In the same way, I would be grateful if people did not disregard and put down supporters who are not members of any active group. With the best will in the world, they outnumber you by many thousands. Try seeing if they get involved in this and the outcomes and listen to them before dismissing them out of hand.
I think it's obvious there are many very intelligent and informed people outside the various groups and both on and off Charlton Life. The issue is whether selecting people at "random" - and I guarantee you it won't be that anyway - would be likely to identify any of them.
so do you think it'll be people already known to the club or some extremely selective "random" to up the chances of the attendees just being happy to be there?
I just think that any names that come up randomly which don't suit the club's purpose will be discarded.
You are for obvious reasons a very respected poster. But your comments are verging on paranoia now.
Well...that escalated quickly from my last post!! I'm sure there's a pic out there somewhere for that!
I have just spent he afternoon in a meeting with two very large law firms on the brink of merging. My little brain, unfortunately, may struggle to understand the issues at stake here and perhaps I should turn down any potential invitation to be a "random supporter". I should probably not be reviewing docs for Prague/all of us anymore when it comes to the LLDC and OS either!
I have spent 30 years in one organisation and I abhor internal politics and avoid them like the plague. Probably explains why I only got so far, but it's far enough for me. For the same reason, I have avoided fan groups and other "clubs, associations, political groups and cliques"! Does that mean that I am uninterested and ignorant? (that's rhetorical by the way, so don't bother responding).
It has already been pointed out that there is a lot of arrogance and assumptions in some posts on here. It's wonderful that we have "active" supporters. I applaud them and I always have done. We wouldn't have seen some of the wonderful times recently without people like @Airman Brown and many others and I do not disregard the efforts that @razil put in for the Trust and certainly not @PragueAddick.
In the same way, I would be grateful if people did not disregard and put down supporters who are not members of any active group. With the best will in the world, they outnumber you by many thousands. Try seeing if they get involved in this and the outcomes and listen to them before dismissing them out of hand.
I think it's obvious there are many very intelligent and informed people outside the various groups and both on and off Charlton Life. The issue is whether selecting people at "random" - and I guarantee you it won't be that anyway - would be likely to identify any of them.
so do you think it'll be people already known to the club or some extremely selective "random" to up the chances of the attendees just being happy to be there?
I just think that any names that come up randomly which don't suit the club's purpose will be discarded.
You are for obvious reasons a very respected poster. But your comments are verging on paranoia now.
I think that Rick is probably right. All the evidence so far is that they want to heavily control discussion with groups of fans, particularly where they are being held to account. They have stage managed previous Q and A sessions, they have reduced the remit of existing fan forums, they have rejected requests from fan groups to have direct talks.
I'm not arguing whether their approach is reasonable or not. But based on the past I can't imagine that they will do anything other than try to control the audience, which will include being selective where possible.
Well...that escalated quickly from my last post!! I'm sure there's a pic out there somewhere for that!
I have just spent he afternoon in a meeting with two very large law firms on the brink of merging. My little brain, unfortunately, may struggle to understand the issues at stake here and perhaps I should turn down any potential invitation to be a "random supporter". I should probably not be reviewing docs for Prague/all of us anymore when it comes to the LLDC and OS either!
I have spent 30 years in one organisation and I abhor internal politics and avoid them like the plague. Probably explains why I only got so far, but it's far enough for me. For the same reason, I have avoided fan groups and other "clubs, associations, political groups and cliques"! Does that mean that I am uninterested and ignorant? (that's rhetorical by the way, so don't bother responding).
It has already been pointed out that there is a lot of arrogance and assumptions in some posts on here. It's wonderful that we have "active" supporters. I applaud them and I always have done. We wouldn't have seen some of the wonderful times recently without people like @Airman Brown and many others and I do not disregard the efforts that @razil put in for the Trust and certainly not @PragueAddick.
In the same way, I would be grateful if people did not disregard and put down supporters who are not members of any active group. With the best will in the world, they outnumber you by many thousands. Try seeing if they get involved in this and the outcomes and listen to them before dismissing them out of hand.
I think it's obvious there are many very intelligent and informed people outside the various groups and both on and off Charlton Life. The issue is whether selecting people at "random" - and I guarantee you it won't be that anyway - would be likely to identify any of them.
so do you think it'll be people already known to the club or some extremely selective "random" to up the chances of the attendees just being happy to be there?
I just think that any names that come up randomly which don't suit the club's purpose will be discarded.
You are for obvious reasons a very respected poster. But your comments are verging on paranoia now.
Apart from the fact they have no system for selecting people at random, it's hardly surprising that there will be a number of people who wouldn't be acceptable if they happened to come up in a random selection. It's not a huge issue, since I doubt the meeting is any more than a PR stunt anyway, but Murray isn't going head to head with any of the people he knows would take him on. I can think of several former directors - and current season ticket holders - in that category, but a random selection would not exclude them, which is what I mean. The list will be vetted, therefore it will not be random.
How will they know the views of random fans? Apart from a few obvious high profile fans surely the club has no idea how each individual feels?
Also I'm fairly sure a large amount of fans have been asking for direct dialogue with the board, as the FF exists to represent the fans surely by default they have been asking exactly that.
How will they know the views of random fans? Apart from a few obvious high profile fans surely the club has no idea how each individual feels?
Also I'm fairly sure a large amount of fans have been asking for direct dialogue with the board, as the FF exists to represent the fans surely by default they have been asking exactly that.
The FF met Meire a fortnight ago, but the discussion is still a secret.
Well...that escalated quickly from my last post!! I'm sure there's a pic out there somewhere for that!
I have just spent he afternoon in a meeting with two very large law firms on the brink of merging. My little brain, unfortunately, may struggle to understand the issues at stake here and perhaps I should turn down any potential invitation to be a "random supporter". I should probably not be reviewing docs for Prague/all of us anymore when it comes to the LLDC and OS either!
I have spent 30 years in one organisation and I abhor internal politics and avoid them like the plague. Probably explains why I only got so far, but it's far enough for me. For the same reason, I have avoided fan groups and other "clubs, associations, political groups and cliques"! Does that mean that I am uninterested and ignorant? (that's rhetorical by the way, so don't bother responding).
It has already been pointed out that there is a lot of arrogance and assumptions in some posts on here. It's wonderful that we have "active" supporters. I applaud them and I always have done. We wouldn't have seen some of the wonderful times recently without people like @Airman Brown and many others and I do not disregard the efforts that @razil put in for the Trust and certainly not @PragueAddick.
In the same way, I would be grateful if people did not disregard and put down supporters who are not members of any active group. With the best will in the world, they outnumber you by many thousands. Try seeing if they get involved in this and the outcomes and listen to them before dismissing them out of hand.
I think it's obvious there are many very intelligent and informed people outside the various groups and both on and off Charlton Life. The issue is whether selecting people at "random" - and I guarantee you it won't be that anyway - would be likely to identify any of them.
so do you think it'll be people already known to the club or some extremely selective "random" to up the chances of the attendees just being happy to be there?
I just think that any names that come up randomly which don't suit the club's purpose will be discarded.
You are for obvious reasons a very respected poster. But your comments are verging on paranoia now.
You'll be saying that the safe, middle aged families selected to sit on the sofa each game are an act of random as well!
The club won't have any non-manual ability to select at random, so let's just say the only way they can do is if for example, someone chooses 10 CON numbers at random. From that 10, 2 live in Yorkshire, 1 in Portsmouth, 1 in Brighton, 3 are children, 1 is on their risk category list, and 1 is someone known to the club as he sends in emails of complaints after every single game.
What if only 10% of those selected are actually interested in coming? How much time and effort do they put into trying to contact people? How much effort do they put into filling the places?
Will the ticket office have to close for one of the few remaining days that it is open to devote resources to this? :-)
The fans' concerns are the same, whoever is there to express them. And if KM and RM aren't aware by now that there is a problem with the turnover of managers, players and staff then even a speech by Martin Luther King won't make any difference. "Roland will do it his way and the fans have to understand that" is the bottom line, and Roland keeps himself well away from the firing line.
Not studied this whole thread so sorry if this has been mentioned. Why not protest outside this meeting? The reps from every fan group forum could then be seen to be acting as one and maybe hand in a list of questions to everyone attending on both sides of the table.
I simply propose that each fan group should send along an articulate supporter aged under 25. This would emphasise that concerns are very serious and go beyond those of us who have been around for a while.
Why be ageist? Do older fans not have a right to be represented? Surely the group should represent fans from across the spectrum who can articulate our concerns clearly and forcefully. I think it does have the strong whiff of a PR stunt but we as fans need to use it to our advantage as much as we can. Therefore, since it's hard to believe that all fans will be in 'the hat' for the random choice, the chosen ones should try to meet prior to the meeting and share/views/ideas and questions to thoroughly prepare. What worries me is that some people, if chosen, will not want to attend for whatever reason and it plays into the hands of KM and RD. However, protest and communication is multi-facetted so as fans we can all chip in a way that suit us. BTW, all the personal digs and backhanded swipes at people who work hard for the club and fans is beneath us. We need to be united in our defence of our precious club.
@Eynsfordaddick My comment was not intended as ageist but calling out the Club's ageism - that they want young fans so let them hear the views from said young fans. I know of many in that age group who have serious concerns or are very disillusioned with things at cafc.. It was somewhat tongue in cheek, too...
One controlling method is to only deal with questions asked in advance in writing which prevents true dialogue and exchange and the development of a theme.
I am interested in the format of this meeting, will it be chaired in any way, will there be the usual microphone farce, how do you ensure all present hear clearly everything said on both sides, will there be the usual power structure physicality of a 'top' table?
I expect somebody I know to be randomly selected. I wouldn't mind witnessing the selection process, and I think it would be box office if Airman Brown was a name that comes out of the hat.
Agree with @Weegie Addick regarding the club's ageism - it has been apparent so many times in interviews and statements coming from the current regime (which is ironic considering Roland himself is no spring chicken) - there is the constant downplaying of history for a start and the constant references to the fact that some fans are living in the past. There's the seeming purge of experienced people from the club. Then there's the disdain shown to long term supporters such as the old lady referred to in the French magazine interview; the one used as an example of Katrien's exposition that we are all living in the past. Added to that there is the seeming focus on attracting a new younger fan base, and treating these prospective customers as being equal to those that already exist, which seems the most philosophically unsound and economically unsound idea ever. Therefore there is logic in the argument that the club will only take notice of younger supporters because it seems that certain people are uncomfortable dealing with anyone older than them, which is a huge sign of immaturity in itself; a psychological failure to accept the inevitability of one's own ageing process. From personal observation it usually affects people in their early 30s.
And it'd be great if all those randomly selected could pull together in some way and meet up in advance of the meeting so that everybody knows what hymn sheet the others are singing off. Not everybody needs to have the same beliefs but it would be good to have a synthesised argument, and that's what one of the purposes of any football club Trust, to provide a platform for different opinions to be combined and expressed, with equal weighting.
Comments
Luckily we both live at the same address!
I'm not arguing whether their approach is reasonable or not. But based on the past I can't imagine that they will do anything other than try to control the audience, which will include being selective where possible.
Also I'm fairly sure a large amount of fans have been asking for direct dialogue with the board, as the FF exists to represent the fans surely by default they have been asking exactly that.
I wonder why the trust have not released notes about the meeting? Or anyone else?
some serious questions that corner both of them....
I want them to leave utterly dismayed or accepting some big mistakes...
I wasnt some decent plans moving forward...
and I'd like Meire to start crying and run out the room...
The club won't have any non-manual ability to select at random, so let's just say the only way they can do is if for example, someone chooses 10 CON numbers at random. From that 10, 2 live in Yorkshire, 1 in Portsmouth, 1 in Brighton, 3 are children, 1 is on their risk category list, and 1 is someone known to the club as he sends in emails of complaints after every single game.
What if only 10% of those selected are actually interested in coming? How much time and effort do they put into trying to contact people? How much effort do they put into filling the places?
Will the ticket office have to close for one of the few remaining days that it is open to devote resources to this? :-)
"Roland will do it his way and the fans have to understand that" is the bottom line, and Roland keeps himself well away from the firing line.
Who do Keith Blair, Graham Mackley, John Perkins, Craig Parrett currently represent?
How many of the supporters groups are currently active (maintaining meetings, annual memberships etc?
And how many members would something like the Reminiscence Group have?
If you type in cafc fans forum into Google it gives us a list of representatives including previous fans forum meetings (not including October's)
http://www.cafc.co.uk/fans/fans_forum/
http://www.cafc.co.uk/news/article/charlton-katrien-meire-richard-murray-meeting-fans-2773127.aspx
The first three gentleman @AFKABartram has mentioned are not on that list, so where have they come from all of a sudden? Random selected people...
I think it does have the strong whiff of a PR stunt but we as fans need to use it to our advantage as much as we can. Therefore, since it's hard to believe that all fans will be in 'the hat' for the random choice, the chosen ones should try to meet prior to the meeting and share/views/ideas and questions to thoroughly prepare. What worries me is that some people, if chosen, will not want to attend for whatever reason and it plays into the hands of KM and RD.
However, protest and communication is multi-facetted so as fans we can all chip in a way that suit us.
BTW, all the personal digs and backhanded swipes at people who work hard for the club and fans is beneath us. We need to be united in our defence of our precious club.
I am interested in the format of this meeting, will it be chaired in any way, will there be the usual microphone farce, how do you ensure all present hear clearly everything said on both sides, will there be the usual power structure physicality of a 'top' table?
I expect somebody I know to be randomly selected. I wouldn't mind witnessing the selection process, and I think it would be box office if Airman Brown was a name that comes out of the hat.