The trust is damned if it doesn't, damned if it does, and I suspect this statement is only part of turning the ship around in a more threatening direction. Because it's comprised of individuals who'll all have individual views, it's always going to be a bit more difficult reacting to fast-moving events, especially compared with being a lone bigmouth on the internet. The statement's a big step forward in that regard.
But @Henry Irving has a strong point about demanding specific outcomes - even if it's just demanding answers to the 7 questions by a certain date. Demanding a meeting with Duchatelet - or at the very least a response - by a certain date would be a good.
The Trust is in a tricky position because it doesn't want to burn very fragile bridges, and perhaps the Christmas Eve statement has already been superseded by the emergence of KM's cosy Dublin chat show. Would be good to see a harder fist underneath the velvet glove, though. (And that's going to need fans to support the trust rather than sniping at it and deciding they're somehow above it.)
The point is not whether both are advanced in their effect, but more that they are available to us. We may or may not agree on the opportunity talking offers us, but why abandon it to leave ourselves just one option of something that may or may not be effective? It's only a few weeks ago people are saying the club would never talk to the Supporters' Trust, now they are we're being told to abandon it?
I really don't get the clamour for the Trust to do everything, unless it's simply that others can't be arsed.
Anyway, my main point about the naysayers wasn't a dump of emotions but to point out we've taken a long term view even for those who not only disbelieve but would have us abandon our approach at the beginning of the year. Now those same people are saying we should abandon our approach again because they now see what we were saying and want a fight. I'd ask you all to trust us. If the club abandons its commitments to us all, then they will have closed down one option, but at of today I don't get see how we gain from reducing our options.
Rik
Don't you think the protests (despite the laudable best efforts of those involved) lack leadership, co-ordination, effectiveness and momentum? If not, I'd be interested to know why you think otherwise.
It's not so much that the Trust have to do everything but surely there is an important role for the over-arching fans representative body? If you want to restrict yourself to pursuing a dialogue one has to ask "what dialogue?", because it appears to us outsiders that KM is very plainly dicking you around.
So what do the Trust think can possibly come from dialogue? That has never been made clear. Just give up and get on the protest path. It is going to end with scenes at the valley in the lower west stand so why not get it over with now?
To add to @PragueAddick's comments, it seems to me that right now there are two channels of influence active: the external influence of protests, and the internal one of dialogue. The former have taken good shape thanks to @Airman Brown and @Addickted2TheReds, and the Trust are leading on the latter.
It strikes me that people are asking the Trust to take action not only already being capably addressed by other supporters but which will almost certainly result in us halving those channels available to us. That seems foolish to me.
It would be different perhaps if no protest action was being organised - and the club is well aware we back the b&w campaign (not least because its objectives are very close to those that arose from the Woolwich meeting).
Anyway, our statement yesterday makes clear that far from waiting for January to end we're working throughout to try to get the club to do things in a timely manner. There is some reality about the availability of senior club staff during a transfer window though.
I do observe that some of the criticism is from people who are not only not members of the Trust but who have previously expressed their view we shouldn't even exist. For those then to effectively blame us for supporter inaction is a little hard to swallow, especially when we've been active on this very issue for over a year, whilst the same fans were telling us we were interfering busybodies creating an imaginary threat to bolster our numbers.
Ho hum. Merry Christmas
Just when I thought then Trust had finally got it they come out with this.
There is no similarity with what Spell it out are asking for and the outcome of the Woolwich meeting.
SIO has clear specific, timebound outcomes. The Woolwich meeting had a vague wish for more dialogue.
Now the Trust is trying to say "you lot carry on protesting and we'll pick up the dialogue and have our meeting with KM off the back of it".
Please get off the fence, not as individuals but as a board.
Stop asking for vague outcomes. Demand specific, timed actions from the club.
The few very small wins for the fans have come as a result of the car park protests and the 2%/SIO.
Ask for more and better players, ask KM to explain her remarks on the video, criticise the format and make up of the T20k group, demand a better manager, better comminication, state what action you will take if and when these things don't happen be it marches, protests, media campaigns, boycotts, complaints to governing bodies, etc etc etc etc. You Could even offer your help as a trust giving out sone black and white scarves before Wolves. You have a stall why not use it for something useful?
I'm guessing you are going to say we support the scarves, we need to wait, we need another survey, we need to leave the door open.
No, you need to act.
WE NEED TO LEAVE THE DOOR OPEN THATS THE TRAP DOOR.HENRY
I supported fully the Trusts latest statement, it is what I wanted to hear as a trust member..........until the KM video appeared which for me has changed everything, as we now have the full picture of their plans for the long term future of the club we all love.
So I would just ask one simple question of the Trust board, do they really believe their potential dialogue will include even a small chance of convincing RD(the only person who matters) that we need a complete philosophy change at the club for first team success and to retain a half decent support at the Valley, ideally before the summer?
Actually the furious response to this video (which was from the event in early Nov) will probably help us a little, in that KM will now be under pressure to demonstrate that her words have been misinterpreted. Of course as individuals we are just as appalled as everyone else about what she appears to be saying there.
I can only say once again that we are not going to sit back and wait to see what happens in the window period. But i dont think the video changes anything. After all, many people have always assumed their business model to be what she appears to describe.
To answer your question, if not dialogue, ( which doesnt mean nice cups of tea) then what? As I mentioned privately to one of our critics today, we've been looking around for an example of a club in any of the 3 top tiers where the fans successfully forced out an owner. If we could find one, we would be in contact with their Trust and seek to learn from them. But so far we have not found such an example. Leeds, with its 9000 member Trust and connections to wealthy fans,has not managed it. Thats what keeps me awake at night.
Don't get me wrong Prague, I have a lot of respect for what the Trust has done, I would hope it did not come across as a personal attack on any of you.
We have confirmation of many of our worst fears, that in the eyes of our owner, we are no longer a competitive football team but just the academy for all the other competitive teams, so it is hard not to despair about a focus for more dialogue with KM, who to me has no real power over anything truly important at the club.
If there was any hope of talking to RD, then I would be much more likely to be supportive.
Simply for me and I suspect many fans, that the current ownership not making first team success the priority even if it was not successful is a red line, it is they change or they leave.
Will that be easy to achieve by us fans, no, but it is all that is left now IMO.
Actually the furious response to this video (which was from the event in early Nov) will probably help us a little, in that KM will now be under pressure to demonstrate that her words have been misinterpreted. Of course as individuals we are just as appalled as everyone else about what she appears to be saying there.
I can only say once again that we are not going to sit back and wait to see what happens in the window period. But i dont think the video changes anything. After all, many people have always assumed their business model to be what she appears to describe.
To answer your question, if not dialogue, ( which doesnt mean nice cups of tea) then what? As I mentioned privately to one of our critics today, we've been looking around for an example of a club in any of the 3 top tiers where the fans successfully forced out an owner. If we could find one, we would be in contact with their Trust and seek to learn from them. But so far we have not found such an example. Leeds, with its 9000 member Trust and connections to wealthy fans,has not managed it. Thats what keeps me awake at night.
I don't get this whole "I don't know who's up for buying the club therefore we shouldn't push for its sale". If I put my house up for sale I don't know who will want to buy it beforehand, that doesn't keep me up at night though.
I understand where you are coming from, @se9addick, but it is more complicated: it's more like tenants wanting the property to be sold because the landlord is rubbish - not really in the tenants' control.
I understand where you are coming from, @se9addick, but it is more complicated: it's more like tenants wanting the property to be sold because the landlord is rubbish - not really in the tenants' control.
Do those tenants lose sleep when one freeholder sells to another ? Do they think "I'd better not cause too much fuss otherwise this terrible, but possibly alright in the grand scheme of things, benefactor might get angry" ?
I'd be interested in the answer, I'm sure I can handle the complexity !
My concern is not so much "pushing RD to sell", more, how do you do that in a way which persuades him to sell to somebody better - given that the somebody has to be ready to fund losses of 5-8m annually just to keep us afloat in this league? If it was so bloody easy, why has no other fanbase managed it? If you take Leeds, I am not sure whether their Trust took credit for "forcing Bates out" (i might try to find out). But if they did, well, he took his revenge by selling to Cellino, and they cant seem to get him out despite being much better resourced than we are.
If anyone thinks this is "not good enough" from a Trust board member, and think they know how to achieve the above, lets meet up for a beer before the Wolves game and you can put me bang to rights. And if that doesnt do the trick, you can take my place on the Board ( although there is anyway a vacant chair).
Actually the beer offer is open to any Trust member reading this, regardless of where you stand, none of us talk face to face enough. Mail me if you are interested and we can agree the venue.
My concern is not so much "pushing RD to sell", more, how do you do that in a way which persuades him to sell to somebody better - given that the somebody has to be ready to fund losses of 5-8m annually just to keep us afloat in this league? If it was so bloody easy, why has no other fanbase managed it? If you take Leeds, I am not sure whether their Trust took credit for "forcing Bates out" (i might try to find out). But if they did, well, he took his revenge by selling to Cellino, and they cant seem to get him out despite being much better resourced than we are.
If anyone thinks this is "not good enough" from a Trust board member, and think they know how to achieve the above, lets meet up for a beer before the Wolves game and you can put me bang to rights. And if that doesnt do the trick, you can take my place on the Board ( although there is anyway a vacant chair).
Actually the beer offer is open to any Trust member reading this, regardless of where you stand, none of us talk face to face enough. Mail me if you are interested and we can agree the venue.
"how do you do that in a way which persuades him to sell to somebody better" - we don't, how could we possibly ? But surely if someone is causing considerable harm to this football club then we stop them. If the person that comes along in their wake is just as bad/worse then we stop them too, why should we accept this ?
My concern is not so much "pushing RD to sell", more, how do you do that in a way which persuades him to sell to somebody better - given that the somebody has to be ready to fund losses of 5-8m annually just to keep us afloat in this league? If it was so bloody easy, why has no other fanbase managed it? If you take Leeds, I am not sure whether their Trust took credit for "forcing Bates out" (i might try to find out). But if they did, well, he took his revenge by selling to Cellino, and they cant seem to get him out despite being much better resourced than we are.
If anyone thinks this is "not good enough" from a Trust board member, and think they know how to achieve the above, lets meet up for a beer before the Wolves game and you can put me bang to rights. And if that doesnt do the trick, you can take my place on the Board ( although there is anyway a vacant chair).
Actually the beer offer is open to any Trust member reading this, regardless of where you stand, none of us talk face to face enough. Mail me if you are interested and we can agree the venue.
"how do you do that in a way which persuades him to sell to somebody better" - we don't, how could we possibly ? But surely if someone is causing considerable harm to this football club then we stop them. If the person that comes along in their wake is just as bad/worse then we stop them too, why should we accept this ?
Well I personally believe that if you at least have some dialogue going with an owner, so that he sees we are reasonable people who want reasonable things, you could persuade him to bow out gracefully.
And I dont know how, otherwise, you simply "stop" owners from behaving in a certain way. Maybe Its just me, and like I said, if anyone else has a better plan, here's the space.
I think though that a lot of people think about club owners like they think about Greenwich council or some other public institution. IMO that is a fatal tactical mistake. But maybe I am old and past it...
My concern is not so much "pushing RD to sell", more, how do you do that in a way which persuades him to sell to somebody better - given that the somebody has to be ready to fund losses of 5-8m annually just to keep us afloat in this league? If it was so bloody easy, why has no other fanbase managed it? If you take Leeds, I am not sure whether their Trust took credit for "forcing Bates out" (i might try to find out). But if they did, well, he took his revenge by selling to Cellino, and they cant seem to get him out despite being much better resourced than we are.
If anyone thinks this is "not good enough" from a Trust board member, and think they know how to achieve the above, lets meet up for a beer before the Wolves game and you can put me bang to rights. And if that doesnt do the trick, you can take my place on the Board ( although there is anyway a vacant chair).
Actually the beer offer is open to any Trust member reading this, regardless of where you stand, none of us talk face to face enough. Mail me if you are interested and we can agree the venue.
"how do you do that in a way which persuades him to sell to somebody better" - we don't, how could we possibly ? But surely if someone is causing considerable harm to this football club then we stop them. If the person that comes along in their wake is just as bad/worse then we stop them too, why should we accept this ?
Well I personally believe that if you at least have some dialogue going with an owner, so that he sees we are reasonable people who want reasonable things, you could persuade him to bow out gracefully.
And I dont know how, otherwise, you simply "stop" owners from behaving in a certain way. Maybe Its just me, and like I said, if anyone else has a better plan, here's the space.
I think though that a lot of people think about club owners like they think about Greenwich council or some other public institution. IMO that is a fatal tactical mistake. But maybe I am old and past it...
The only dialogue anyone has had is with Katrien and not the owner.
Her record telling the truth is well documented.
I doubt she even speaks to Roland about this dialogue but we live in hope
My concern is not so much "pushing RD to sell", more, how do you do that in a way which persuades him to sell to somebody better - given that the somebody has to be ready to fund losses of 5-8m annually just to keep us afloat in this league? If it was so bloody easy, why has no other fanbase managed it? If you take Leeds, I am not sure whether their Trust took credit for "forcing Bates out" (i might try to find out). But if they did, well, he took his revenge by selling to Cellino, and they cant seem to get him out despite being much better resourced than we are.
If anyone thinks this is "not good enough" from a Trust board member, and think they know how to achieve the above, lets meet up for a beer before the Wolves game and you can put me bang to rights. And if that doesnt do the trick, you can take my place on the Board ( although there is anyway a vacant chair).
Actually the beer offer is open to any Trust member reading this, regardless of where you stand, none of us talk face to face enough. Mail me if you are interested and we can agree the venue.
"how do you do that in a way which persuades him to sell to somebody better" - we don't, how could we possibly ? But surely if someone is causing considerable harm to this football club then we stop them. If the person that comes along in their wake is just as bad/worse then we stop them too, why should we accept this ?
Well I personally believe that if you at least have some dialogue going with an owner, so that he sees we are reasonable people who want reasonable things, you could persuade him to bow out gracefully.
And I dont know how, otherwise, you simply "stop" owners from behaving in a certain way. Maybe Its just me, and like I said, if anyone else has a better plan, here's the space.
I think though that a lot of people think about club owners like they think about Greenwich council or some other public institution. IMO that is a fatal tactical mistake. But maybe I am old and past it...
The only dialogue anyone has had is with Katrien and not the owner.
Her record telling the truth is well documented.
I doubt she even speaks to Roland about this dialogue but we live in hope
We have said to KM that we would like to speak with RD but she says he wont do it. It could be her protecting her position but he told our journalist contact in Belgium that he will not speak to fans, from any club. His own son, running Ujpest said communication is his weak point. But we know he, rather than KM, holds all the cards. At some point we will have to speak with him.
Like what seems to be the majority on here, I was prepared to give this regime the oportunity to show their plan worked. When Carol Fray pitched up it was the final straw. The idea of dialogue was one I have never seen much future in. No great insight really. KM stated way back when that we would have to accept Roland will do things his way, and really, they have never shown any sign that it was'nt so. Anyway, Katrien has now allowed a video nasty of herself attacking the fans to seep onto the web, so dialogue is pretty much dead. If the trust has been mandated by the fans to try and chat, you have to respect it ties their hands, and no one wants to spend their life perpetually going round the same group of people asking 'so what should we do now?' Personally, I have always accepted that no one at the club will ever listen to my view. I've never been more than a simple supporter. It makes the reasoning behind having a supporters trust logical. However, this lot make the idea of talking redundant. They do NOT want to listen. That only leaves protest. Prague was asking why people were calling for the trust to lead the protests, or to organise them. For me that's easy. Look how the situation is at the club, and then check out the numbers behind the West Stand last time a protest was called (as well as some of the chanting). It's a bit of a poison chalice, but really, it seems to me we need a coordinator who can mobilise the majority. That is'nt happening. We need Meire out, not chatting and telling lies. We need a decent manager, not the Belgian equivalent of Mr Bean. And really, we need a change at the top. Either a change of direction, or a change of owner. None of that will happen easily but it won't happen by dialogue either. Sorry to rant. Today jacked me off big time. I'm still furious.
I just don't see any point with dialogue unless it is with the main man himself, if that is not and never will be on the table, I just honestly do not understand the benefits the Trust and all us Charlton fans will get from sticking to the dialogue route?
That is assuming our goal is to try and turn us back into for better or worse a real football team not just an academy that the current ownership has clearly suggested they wish us to be for the foreseeable future.
Which I maybe wrong but would assume is what a majority of us fans desire.
My concern is not so much "pushing RD to sell", more, how do you do that in a way which persuades him to sell to somebody better - given that the somebody has to be ready to fund losses of 5-8m annually just to keep us afloat in this league? If it was so bloody easy, why has no other fanbase managed it? If you take Leeds, I am not sure whether their Trust took credit for "forcing Bates out" (i might try to find out). But if they did, well, he took his revenge by selling to Cellino, and they cant seem to get him out despite being much better resourced than we are.
If anyone thinks this is "not good enough" from a Trust board member, and think they know how to achieve the above, lets meet up for a beer before the Wolves game and you can put me bang to rights. And if that doesnt do the trick, you can take my place on the Board ( although there is anyway a vacant chair).
Actually the beer offer is open to any Trust member reading this, regardless of where you stand, none of us talk face to face enough. Mail me if you are interested and we can agree the venue.
"how do you do that in a way which persuades him to sell to somebody better" - we don't, how could we possibly ? But surely if someone is causing considerable harm to this football club then we stop them. If the person that comes along in their wake is just as bad/worse then we stop them too, why should we accept this ?
Well I personally believe that if you at least have some dialogue going with an owner, so that he sees we are reasonable people who want reasonable things, you could persuade him to bow out gracefully.
And I dont know how, otherwise, you simply "stop" owners from behaving in a certain way. Maybe Its just me, and like I said, if anyone else has a better plan, here's the space.
I think though that a lot of people think about club owners like they think about Greenwich council or some other public institution. IMO that is a fatal tactical mistake. But maybe I am old and past it...
The only dialogue anyone has had is with Katrien and not the owner.
Her record telling the truth is well documented.
I doubt she even speaks to Roland about this dialogue but we live in hope
We have said to KM that we would like to speak with RD but she says he wont do it. It could be her protecting her position but he told our journalist contact in Belgium that he will not speak to fans, from any club. His own son, running Ujpest said communication is his weak point. But we know he, rather than KM, holds all the cards. At some point we will have to speak with him.
Have we any links to his son ? Is that a possible route to RD since KM is a brick wall ?
My concern is not so much "pushing RD to sell", more, how do you do that in a way which persuades him to sell to somebody better - given that the somebody has to be ready to fund losses of 5-8m annually just to keep us afloat in this league? If it was so bloody easy, why has no other fanbase managed it? If you take Leeds, I am not sure whether their Trust took credit for "forcing Bates out" (i might try to find out). But if they did, well, he took his revenge by selling to Cellino, and they cant seem to get him out despite being much better resourced than we are.
If anyone thinks this is "not good enough" from a Trust board member, and think they know how to achieve the above, lets meet up for a beer before the Wolves game and you can put me bang to rights. And if that doesnt do the trick, you can take my place on the Board ( although there is anyway a vacant chair).
Actually the beer offer is open to any Trust member reading this, regardless of where you stand, none of us talk face to face enough. Mail me if you are interested and we can agree the venue.
"how do you do that in a way which persuades him to sell to somebody better" - we don't, how could we possibly ? But surely if someone is causing considerable harm to this football club then we stop them. If the person that comes along in their wake is just as bad/worse then we stop them too, why should we accept this ?
Well I personally believe that if you at least have some dialogue going with an owner, so that he sees we are reasonable people who want reasonable things, you could persuade him to bow out gracefully.
And I dont know how, otherwise, you simply "stop" owners from behaving in a certain way. Maybe Its just me, and like I said, if anyone else has a better plan, here's the space.
I think though that a lot of people think about club owners like they think about Greenwich council or some other public institution. IMO that is a fatal tactical mistake. But maybe I am old and past it...
The only dialogue anyone has had is with Katrien and not the owner.
Her record telling the truth is well documented.
I doubt she even speaks to Roland about this dialogue but we live in hope
We have said to KM that we would like to speak with RD but she says he wont do it. It could be her protecting her position but he told our journalist contact in Belgium that he will not speak to fans, from any club. His own son, running Ujpest said communication is his weak point. But we know he, rather than KM, holds all the cards. At some point we will have to speak with him.
Have we any links to his son ? Is that a possible route to RD since KM is a brick wall ?
Thanks, that's a good call, because although DJGaby is not an Ujpest fan he did tell me that he did some work for the Duchatelet family when they first arrived. I'll ask him.
I personally think that there needs to be a firm decision amongst the majority of those involved over what they actually want done. While having contact with the club was ok as a first step in principle, I think since it has proven to be a complete waste of time with only 'Target 20k' coming out of it, another pathetic attempt to appease fans when there are clearly much bigger issues on play, not least the very clear decrease in attendance off the pitch but the absolutely disgraceful performances on the pitch and in the appointment of a manager. We need to establish that Roland needs to go, the idea that he'll suddenly change his mind and decide to run a football club 'properly' is ridiculous and will never happen, especially when he is seemingly so hellbent on being right and this 'plan' working. Whether any form of protest will achieve this I don't know, honestly I doubt it. For this reason, I think that the trust can be a very valuable tool in getting him to sell. I'm not trying to say that it'll be an easy thing to do and I hate to put it all on the trust, but when it comes down to it what else is really going to make a difference? There is obviously lots involved in the sale of a club- and I won't pretend I know half of it but recently I think i saw that a championship club was put up for sale and no less that 50 parties were interested, and unless that was QPR/ Fulham/ Brentford, which I doubt given their situations, surely being in the location we are would surely increase that further.
Like what seems to be the majority on here, I was prepared to give this regime the oportunity to show their plan worked. When Carol Fray pitched up it was the final straw. The idea of dialogue was one I have never seen much future in. KM stated way back when that we would have to accept Roland will do things his way, and really, they have never shown any sign that it was'nt so. Anyway, Katrien has now allowed a video nasty of herself attacking the fans to seep onto the web, so dialogue is pretty much dead. If the trust has been mandated by the fans to try and chat, you have to respect it ties their hands, and no one wants to spend their life perpetually going round the same group of people asking 'so what should we do now?' Personally, I have always accepted that no one at the club will ever listen to my view. I've never been more than a simple supporter. It makes the reasoning behind having a supporters trust logical. However, this lot make the idea of talking redundant. They do NOT want to listen. That only leaves protest. Prague was asking why people were calling for the trust to lead the protests, or to organise them. For me that's easy. Look how the situation is at the club, and then check out the numbers behind the West Stand last time a protest was called (as well as some of the chanting). It's a bit of a poison chalice, but really, it seems to me we need a coordinator who can mobilise the majority. That is'nt happening. We need Meire out, not chatting and telling lies. We need a decent manager, not the Belgian equivalent of Mr Bean. And really, we need a change at the top. Either a change of direction, or a change of owner. None of that will happen easilt, but it won't happen by dialogue either. Sorry to rant. Today jacked me off big time. I'm still furious.
I hadn't read this post, Ken , before I stated my decision on the Post Match thread tonight.
I personally think that there needs to be a firm decision amongst the majority of those involved over what they actually want done. While having contact with the club was ok as a first step in principle, I think since it has proven to be a complete waste of time with only 'Target 20k' coming out of it, another pathetic attempt to appease fans when there are clearly much bigger issues on play, not least the very clear decrease in attendance off the pitch but the absolutely disgraceful performances on the pitch and in the appointment of a manager. We need to establish that Roland needs to go, the idea that he'll suddenly change his mind and decide to run a football club 'properly' is ridiculous and will never happen, especially when he is seemingly so hellbent on being right and this 'plan' working. Whether any form of protest will achieve this I don't know, honestly I doubt it. For this reason, I think that the trust can be a very valuable tool in getting him to sell. I'm not trying to say that it'll be an easy thing to do and I hate to put it all on the trust, but when it comes down to it what else is really going to make a difference? There is obviously lots involved in the sale of a club- and I won't pretend I know half of it but recently I think i saw that a championship club was put up for sale and no less that 50 parties were interested, and unless that was QPR/ Fulham/ Brentford, which I doubt given their situations, surely being in the location we are would surely increase that further.
Are you saying that Target 20k, designed to help increase attendances, is pointless because they should be focussing on bigger issues... such as decreasing attendances?!
It's too bloody late for dialogue. The football club is heading down the sewer. It's time for action. Carefully co-ordinated action to tell the two-bob tossers destroying MY football club. Invest in the team in January or put the club up for sale. Action led by the trust, if not. What purpose is there to the trust?
I personally think that there needs to be a firm decision amongst the majority of those involved over what they actually want done. While having contact with the club was ok as a first step in principle, I think since it has proven to be a complete waste of time with only 'Target 20k' coming out of it, another pathetic attempt to appease fans when there are clearly much bigger issues on play, not least the very clear decrease in attendance off the pitch but the absolutely disgraceful performances on the pitch and in the appointment of a manager. We need to establish that Roland needs to go, the idea that he'll suddenly change his mind and decide to run a football club 'properly' is ridiculous and will never happen, especially when he is seemingly so hellbent on being right and this 'plan' working. Whether any form of protest will achieve this I don't know, honestly I doubt it. For this reason, I think that the trust can be a very valuable tool in getting him to sell. I'm not trying to say that it'll be an easy thing to do and I hate to put it all on the trust, but when it comes down to it what else is really going to make a difference? There is obviously lots involved in the sale of a club- and I won't pretend I know half of it but recently I think i saw that a championship club was put up for sale and no less that 50 parties were interested, and unless that was QPR/ Fulham/ Brentford, which I doubt given their situations, surely being in the location we are would surely increase that further.
Are you saying that Target 20k, designed to help increase attendances, is pointless because they should be focussing on bigger issues... such as decreasing attendances?!
I personally think that there needs to be a firm decision amongst the majority of those involved over what they actually want done. While having contact with the club was ok as a first step in principle, I think since it has proven to be a complete waste of time with only 'Target 20k' coming out of it, another pathetic attempt to appease fans when there are clearly much bigger issues on play, not least the very clear decrease in attendance off the pitch but the absolutely disgraceful performances on the pitch and in the appointment of a manager. We need to establish that Roland needs to go, the idea that he'll suddenly change his mind and decide to run a football club 'properly' is ridiculous and will never happen, especially when he is seemingly so hellbent on being right and this 'plan' working. Whether any form of protest will achieve this I don't know, honestly I doubt it. For this reason, I think that the trust can be a very valuable tool in getting him to sell. I'm not trying to say that it'll be an easy thing to do and I hate to put it all on the trust, but when it comes down to it what else is really going to make a difference? There is obviously lots involved in the sale of a club- and I won't pretend I know half of it but recently I think i saw that a championship club was put up for sale and no less that 50 parties were interested, and unless that was QPR/ Fulham/ Brentford, which I doubt given their situations, surely being in the location we are would surely increase that further.
Are you saying that Target 20k, designed to help increase attendances, is pointless because they should be focussing on bigger issues... such as decreasing attendances?!
I know you're smarter than that. Christ. The reason that attendances are decreasing is because of te absolute shambles on the pitch, and the idea that the club are just going to put it over to the fans to try and increase them is insulting and shows how deluded Katrien is.
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But @Henry Irving has a strong point about demanding specific outcomes - even if it's just demanding answers to the 7 questions by a certain date. Demanding a meeting with Duchatelet - or at the very least a response - by a certain date would be a good.
The Trust is in a tricky position because it doesn't want to burn very fragile bridges, and perhaps the Christmas Eve statement has already been superseded by the emergence of KM's cosy Dublin chat show. Would be good to see a harder fist underneath the velvet glove, though. (And that's going to need fans to support the trust rather than sniping at it and deciding they're somehow above it.)
Don't you think the protests (despite the laudable best efforts of those involved) lack leadership, co-ordination, effectiveness and momentum? If not, I'd be interested to know why you think otherwise.
It's not so much that the Trust have to do everything but surely there is an important role for the over-arching fans representative body? If you want to restrict yourself to pursuing a dialogue one has to ask "what dialogue?", because it appears to us outsiders that KM is very plainly dicking you around.
It's there in Black & White from the horse's mouth which no-one can deny.
And it's time to up the ante - or maybe this should be "up the anti" ?
No more time for words, or rather time for waiting to see whether words will be forthcoming...we know the answer already.
Come on , Trust guys !
Procrastination is the thief of time and ours is running out.
So I would just ask one simple question of the Trust board, do they really believe their potential dialogue will include even a small chance of convincing RD(the only person who matters) that we need a complete philosophy change at the club for first team success and to retain a half decent support at the Valley, ideally before the summer?
Actually the furious response to this video (which was from the event in early Nov) will probably help us a little, in that KM will now be under pressure to demonstrate that her words have been misinterpreted. Of course as individuals we are just as appalled as everyone else about what she appears to be saying there.
I can only say once again that we are not going to sit back and wait to see what happens in the window period. But i dont think the video changes anything. After all, many people have always assumed their business model to be what she appears to describe.
To answer your question, if not dialogue, ( which doesnt mean nice cups of tea) then what? As I mentioned privately to one of our critics today, we've been looking around for an example of a club in any of the 3 top tiers where the fans successfully forced out an owner. If we could find one, we would be in contact with their Trust and seek to learn from them. But so far we have not found such an example. Leeds, with its 9000 member Trust and connections to wealthy fans,has not managed it. Thats what keeps me awake at night.
We have confirmation of many of our worst fears, that in the eyes of our owner, we are no longer a competitive football team but just the academy for all the other competitive teams, so it is hard not to despair about a focus for more dialogue with KM, who to me has no real power over anything truly important at the club.
If there was any hope of talking to RD, then I would be much more likely to be supportive.
Simply for me and I suspect many fans, that the current ownership not making first team success the priority even if it was not successful is a red line, it is they change or they leave.
Will that be easy to achieve by us fans, no, but it is all that is left now IMO.
I'd be interested in the answer, I'm sure I can handle the complexity !
Didnt take your post as an attack at all, just unfortunately I dont have an easy answer
@se9addick .
My concern is not so much "pushing RD to sell", more, how do you do that in a way which persuades him to sell to somebody better - given that the somebody has to be ready to fund losses of 5-8m annually just to keep us afloat in this league? If it was so bloody easy, why has no other fanbase managed it? If you take Leeds, I am not sure whether their Trust took credit for "forcing Bates out" (i might try to find out). But if they did, well, he took his revenge by selling to Cellino, and they cant seem to get him out despite being much better resourced than we are.
If anyone thinks this is "not good enough" from a Trust board member, and think they know how to achieve the above, lets meet up for a beer before the Wolves game and you can put me bang to rights. And if that doesnt do the trick, you can take my place on the Board ( although there is anyway a vacant chair).
Actually the beer offer is open to any Trust member reading this, regardless of where you stand, none of us talk face to face enough. Mail me if you are interested and we can agree the venue.
And I dont know how, otherwise, you simply "stop" owners from behaving in a certain way. Maybe Its just me, and like I said, if anyone else has a better plan, here's the space.
I think though that a lot of people think about club owners like they think about Greenwich council or some other public institution. IMO that is a fatal tactical mistake. But maybe I am old and past it...
Her record telling the truth is well documented.
I doubt she even speaks to Roland about this dialogue but we live in hope
Personally, I have always accepted that no one at the club will ever listen to my view. I've never been more than a simple supporter. It makes the reasoning behind having a supporters trust logical. However, this lot make the idea of talking redundant. They do NOT want to listen. That only leaves protest.
Prague was asking why people were calling for the trust to lead the protests, or to organise them. For me that's easy. Look how the situation is at the club, and then check out the numbers behind the West Stand last time a protest was called (as well as some of the chanting). It's a bit of a poison chalice, but really, it seems to me we need a coordinator who can mobilise the majority. That is'nt happening. We need Meire out, not chatting and telling lies. We need a decent manager, not the Belgian equivalent of Mr Bean. And really, we need a change at the top. Either a change of direction, or a change of owner. None of that will happen easily but it won't happen by dialogue either.
Sorry to rant. Today jacked me off big time. I'm still furious.
That is assuming our goal is to try and turn us back into for better or worse a real football team not just an academy that the current ownership has clearly suggested they wish us to be for the foreseeable future.
Which I maybe wrong but would assume is what a majority of us fans desire.
Seems we're singing from the same hymn sheet.
It's time for action. Carefully co-ordinated action to tell the two-bob tossers destroying MY football club. Invest in the team in January or put the club up for sale.
Action led by the trust, if not. What purpose is there to the trust?
It just reads a little funnily.
I knew what you meant.
Should have added a smiley tbf.