Thanks for uploading that file. As far as I can tell from skim reading, it doesn't take into account the new weighted method of voting and also some of those laws that have been passed. Do they have a significant impact on us? Some seem like they would do some good for example but I'll admit without having read up on every single one of them in detail it's hard to say. What would be interesting to see would be a list of proposals that voted no for countries such as Germany and France to see if it is similar.
The out crowd will cite this as hard proof that would are being forced to comply with draconian laws, personally I'd rather read evidence put forward by a person or organisation with no agenda.
Thanks for uploading that file. As far as I can tell from skim reading, it doesn't take into account the new weighted method of voting and also some of those laws that have been passed. Do they have a significant impact on us? Some seem like they would do some good for example but I'll admit without having read up on every single one of them in detail it's hard to say. What would be interesting to see would be a list of proposals that voted no for countries such as Germany and France to see if it is similar.
The out crowd will cite this as hard proof that would are being forced to comply with draconian laws, personally I'd rather read evidence put forward by a person or organisation with no agenda.
Exactly. We can already see that 5 of those 55 were also voted no by Germany, and 11 by the Netherlands. Two countries at the very heart of the European project. So it seems likely that in total the Dutch may have voted 'no" maybe 30 plus times.
Anything authored by Matthew Elliott, the founder of the laughably named Taxpayers Alliance needs to be carefully scrutinised.
Many years ago I lived and worked in Norway building oil production platforms (oil rigs) for the Brent field. I loved the country, and a few of those long haired blond girls, who somehow managed to force themselves into those tighter than tight jeans. (The subject of another thread). Working hours were very restricted and controlled. Weekend working was very virtually non-existent. Many Norwegians spent weekends at their country homes. The cost of living was high and income was heavily taxed. But social benefits were highly paid.
Last night on newsnight, there was a very interesting interview with a chap who I think was a director of a European law enforcement agency called Europol. His concern was that a Britexit would leave us on the margins of European shared security, with little input to influence policy at a time when security was a major European issue.
I'd argue that the free movement of peoples across the EU is the number 1 security risk. Also that bloke on newsnight last night is paid a 6 figure salary by the EU!
I'd argue that the free movement of peoples across the EU is the number 1 security risk. Also that bloke on newsnight last night is paid a 6 figure salary by the EU!
Let's put back up the barbed wire and reinstate the Stasi. Make everyone carry identity cards and have papers ready for inspection by any official. Would be great to feel safe knowing our borders were tight secure from all those enemies of the state lurking outside of the perimeter. I want our society to view all outsiders with suspicion. All dissident voices questioned. If other countries are not happy with this then I am quite prepared to use our military to preserve our threatened way of life.
I'd argue that the free movement of peoples across the EU is the number 1 security risk. Also that bloke on newsnight last night is paid a 6 figure salary by the EU!
Let's put back up the barbed wire and reinstate the Stasi. Make everyone carry identity cards and have papers ready for inspection by any official. Would be great to feel safe knowing our borders were tight secure from all those enemies of the state lurking outside of the perimeter. I want our society to view all outsiders with suspicion. All dissident voices questioned. If other countries are not happy with this then I am quite prepared to use our military to preserve our threatened way of life.
So just to clarify; all countries outside the European Union (i.e the vast, vast majority) have put up barbed wire and have reinstated the Stasi?
What I am proposing is the default immigration system for a country on planet earth.
I'd argue that the free movement of peoples across the EU is the number 1 security risk. Also that bloke on newsnight last night is paid a 6 figure salary by the EU!
You would argue your Mum was your Dad if it somehow "supported" your take on things, let's be honest Nick...
More British people should utilise the freedom of travel to live and work in another country, for a short time at least. Then there wouldn't be such an 'us and them' mentality. It always amazes me what a big issue some people make about immigration. In reality does it really affect your life, or is it just reading about it in the newspapers continuously that gets people worked up? I suspect it is more the latter. The EU clearly needs reform but the UK obviously needs to be in it.
More British people should utilise the freedom of travel to live and work in another country, for a short time at least. Then there wouldn't be such an 'us and them' mentality. It always amazes me what a big issue some people make about immigration. In reality does it really affect your life, or is it just reading about it in the newspapers continuously that gets people worked up? I suspect it is more the latter. The EU clearly needs reform but the UK obviously needs to be in it.
So? If Norway has batshit laws, that's THEIR CHOICE. Not the EU's
Edit: Oh, and if the Norweigen people don't like it, they can throw their current government out and elect a new one in who may wish to change those laws. Our laws are made on a different island and we have no choice. Democracy eh?
More British people should utilise the freedom of travel to live and work in another country, for a short time at least. Then there wouldn't be such an 'us and them' mentality. It always amazes me what a big issue some people make about immigration. In reality does it really affect your life, or is it just reading about it in the newspapers continuously that gets people worked up? I suspect it is more the latter. The EU clearly needs reform but the UK obviously needs to be in it.
Does 340,000 net immigration annually affect your life? Yes, obviously.
House prices are insane. Roads are busy. The NHS is under significant strain. School places are short.
Can one person tell me a single disadvantage to a controlled immigration system where we pick people based on the skills they have and the skills deficit the country has?
I'd argue that the free movement of peoples across the EU is the number 1 security risk. Also that bloke on newsnight last night is paid a 6 figure salary by the EU!
Ignoring that the majority of terrorist attacks are carried out by nationals of that country let's say we did exit the EU and strict controls were put in place for immigration. Would that reduce the risk of someone coming to Britain in order to carry out a terrorist attack? Unlikely, wouldn't stop someone coming over posing as a tourist and doing the same thing. Or are you suggesting that some migrants are coming to the UK in order to set up terrorist cells and radicalising the nation?
Well if we had strict immigration controls, we might be able to stop someone on the 'no-fly list' entering the country, or someone with a criminal record.
Isn't that sensible?
I take your point though that if someone wants to commit a terrorist act then there is little we can do.
More British people should utilise the freedom of travel to live and work in another country, for a short time at least. Then there wouldn't be such an 'us and them' mentality. It always amazes me what a big issue some people make about immigration. In reality does it really affect your life, or is it just reading about it in the newspapers continuously that gets people worked up? I suspect it is more the latter. The EU clearly needs reform but the UK obviously needs to be in it.
Why does the UK need to be in it? Serious question, I am all for getting out but happy to know why I should vote to stay in when the time comes.
I'd like to think that anyone identified as a potential threat would be under close surveillance by the security services and so far they seem to be doing a decent job.
The security services do an excellent job - quite frankly I don't know how they do it.
But how border controls - whereby you can check people coming in and out/their criminal histories - could be construed as a negative confuses me. If you're not a criminal wishes to do harm, you have nothing to worry about.
The point with Immigration is that we can not control due to freedom of movement.
Anyone that argues for freedom of movement is completely insane. If you support freedom of movement, we can not stop foreign criminals from entering the UK. If you support freedom of movement then you support foreign convicted criminals.
More British people should utilise the freedom of travel to live and work in another country, for a short time at least. Then there wouldn't be such an 'us and them' mentality. It always amazes me what a big issue some people make about immigration. In reality does it really affect your life, or is it just reading about it in the newspapers continuously that gets people worked up? I suspect it is more the latter. The EU clearly needs reform but the UK obviously needs to be in it.
Does 340,000 net immigration annually affect your life? Yes, obviously.
House prices are insane. Roads are busy. The NHS is under significant strain. School places are short.
Can one person tell me a single disadvantage to a controlled immigration system where we pick people based on the skills they have and the skills deficit the country has?
No I can't offhand, but on the other hand, the reasons you give are incredibly weak, Not very well thought out and not necessarily effected by immigration. There's stacks of money to increase school places and reduce the strain on the NHS, the government just choose to let the very richest people keep it all. Roads are busy? Touch of schrodingers immigrant there - either they are all spongers and therefore not using the roads, or they are going to work to do jobs that need doing, if they were not doing them, the jobs wouldn't disappear and clear the roads overnight. Unless of course you think they are the ones driving BMWs on their own and not the people on busses? As for house prices, again, how can immigrants who are all apparently driving down wages afford to buy houses and drive up prices? Sorry Nick, you may have some very credible points to make, but you are wide of the mark there.
More British people should utilise the freedom of travel to live and work in another country, for a short time at least. Then there wouldn't be such an 'us and them' mentality. It always amazes me what a big issue some people make about immigration. In reality does it really affect your life, or is it just reading about it in the newspapers continuously that gets people worked up? I suspect it is more the latter. The EU clearly needs reform but the UK obviously needs to be in it.
Does 340,000 net immigration annually affect your life? Yes, obviously.
House prices are insane. Roads are busy. The NHS is under significant strain. School places are short.
Can one person tell me a single disadvantage to a controlled immigration system where we pick people based on the skills they have and the skills deficit the country has?
No I can't offhand, but on the other hand, the reasons you give are incredibly weak, Not very well thought out and not necessarily effected by immigration. There's stacks of money to increase school places and reduce the strain on the NHS, the government just choose to let the very richest people keep it all. Roads are busy? Touch of schrodingers immigrant there - either they are all spongers and therefore not using the roads, or they are going to work to do jobs that need doing, if they were not doing them, the jobs wouldn't disappear and clear the roads overnight. Unless of course you think they are the ones driving BMWs on their own and not the people on busses? As for house prices, again, how can immigrants who are all apparently driving down wages afford to buy houses and drive up prices? Sorry Nick, you may have some very credible points to make, but you are wide of the mark there.
House prices increase because landlords buy up homes and rent them out - often by rooms. I conceed my point about roads. Do you suggest building schools all over green spaces? Or just extend schools creating traffic issues?
How someone can tell me that 350,000 people every year, plus a geometric increase in birth rates has no impact is ridiculous.
More British people should utilise the freedom of travel to live and work in another country, for a short time at least. Then there wouldn't be such an 'us and them' mentality. It always amazes me what a big issue some people make about immigration. In reality does it really affect your life, or is it just reading about it in the newspapers continuously that gets people worked up? I suspect it is more the latter. The EU clearly needs reform but the UK obviously needs to be in it.
Does 340,000 net immigration annually affect your life? Yes, obviously.
House prices are insane. Roads are busy. The NHS is under significant strain. School places are short.
Can one person tell me a single disadvantage to a controlled immigration system where we pick people based on the skills they have and the skills deficit the country has?
No I can't offhand, but on the other hand, the reasons you give are incredibly weak, Not very well thought out and not necessarily effected by immigration. There's stacks of money to increase school places and reduce the strain on the NHS, the government just choose to let the very richest people keep it all. Roads are busy? Touch of schrodingers immigrant there - either they are all spongers and therefore not using the roads, or they are going to work to do jobs that need doing, if they were not doing them, the jobs wouldn't disappear and clear the roads overnight. Unless of course you think they are the ones driving BMWs on their own and not the people on busses? As for house prices, again, how can immigrants who are all apparently driving down wages afford to buy houses and drive up prices? Sorry Nick, you may have some very credible points to make, but you are wide of the mark there.
House prices increase because landlords buy up homes and rent them out - often by rooms. I conceed my point about roads. Do you suggest building schools all over green spaces? Or just extend schools creating traffic issues?
How someone can tell me that 350,000 people every year, plus a geometric increase in birth rates has no impact is ridiculous.
Not sure where you're getting your info from, but:- 10 years ago the birth rate in the UK was 1.82 births per woman, in 1990 it was 1.82, in 1980 it was 1.90, in 1970 it was 2.44 and in 1960 it was 2.69. In 2014 it was 1.83. Hardly an increase, never mind a geometric one.
Here are the latest birth stats for the UK, published by the ONS:- The provisional number of UK births in 2014 was 776,351. This is a fall of 0.3% compared with 2013 when there were 778,805 births. In Scotland the number of births increased from 56,014 in 2013 to 56,725 in 2014 (provisional figure), a rise of 1.3%. Northern Ireland also recorded an increase in the number of births from 24,279 in 2013 to 24,393, a rise of 0.5%.
Honestly @cafcnick1992 I'm not trying to pick on you, really I'm not
I believe the EU bureaucrats haven't managed the immigration "question" very well at all over the past few years and unsurprisingly most politicians have been pretty useless too. This is all now beginning to bite them on the bum as I'm sure you've been reading.
I think it'll get sorted but probably not quick enough to prevent some of the Fleet Street crowd using selective information to colour people's views unfairly.
It is not a falsehood, and it has not been put to bed.
The Telegraph story is based on "a source at the French Interior Ministry". That could be a junior bureaucrat the reporter is shagging. We are talking Paris here.
Both the Mayor and Deputy Mayor of Calais have called for the arrangement to be scrapped if there is a Brexit. A senior British diplomat has put it even more succinctly.
It may be that Cameron has exaggerated the concept of camps springing up immediately, but use your common sense, man. Why in the event of Brexit would the French continue to allow British police on their soil, the result of which creates huge problems for an innocent French town?
You can say goodbye to the Eurostar terminals at Paris and Brussels too
You can say goodbye to the Eurostar terminals at Paris and Brussels too
Really ???? And why would that be ? Is it because the French and Belgiums won't want any tourists and businessmen spending any money in their capitals after Brexit and they'd rather parts of their local economies were shut down ? Or is it because the French will want to write off their huge investment in Eurostar ?
Comments
How about FullFact.org? (I have no doubt that you'll find this to be some racist and xenophobic run website)
https://fullfact.org/europe/how-often-does-eu-overrule-british-ministers/
The out crowd will cite this as hard proof that would are being forced to comply with draconian laws, personally I'd rather read evidence put forward by a person or organisation with no agenda.
Anything authored by Matthew Elliott, the founder of the laughably named Taxpayers Alliance needs to be carefully scrutinised.
I am yet to be convinced that the EU is worth staying in. I naively thought that a referendum would deliver an open and honest debate.
I held this view long before the current immigration debate btw.
I loved the country, and a few of those long haired blond girls, who somehow managed to force themselves into those tighter than tight jeans. (The subject of another thread).
Working hours were very restricted and controlled.
Weekend working was very virtually non-existent. Many Norwegians spent weekends at their country homes.
The cost of living was high and income was heavily taxed.
But social benefits were highly paid.
Last night on newsnight, there was a very interesting interview with a chap who I think was a director of a European law enforcement agency called Europol.
His concern was that a Britexit would leave us on the margins of European shared security, with little input to influence policy at a time when security was a major European issue.
What I am proposing is the default immigration system for a country on planet earth.
House prices are insane.
Roads are busy.
The NHS is under significant strain.
School places are short.
Can one person tell me a single disadvantage to a controlled immigration system where we pick people based on the skills they have and the skills deficit the country has?
Isn't that sensible?
I take your point though that if someone wants to commit a terrorist act then there is little we can do.
But how border controls - whereby you can check people coming in and out/their criminal histories - could be construed as a negative confuses me. If you're not a criminal wishes to do harm, you have nothing to worry about.
Anyone that argues for freedom of movement is completely insane. If you support freedom of movement, we can not stop foreign criminals from entering the UK. If you support freedom of movement then you support foreign convicted criminals.
I conceed my point about roads.
Do you suggest building schools all over green spaces? Or just extend schools creating traffic issues?
How someone can tell me that 350,000 people every year, plus a geometric increase in birth rates has no impact is ridiculous.
10 years ago the birth rate in the UK was 1.82 births per woman, in 1990 it was 1.82, in 1980 it was 1.90, in 1970 it was 2.44 and in 1960 it was 2.69.
In 2014 it was 1.83.
Hardly an increase, never mind a geometric one.
Here are the latest birth stats for the UK, published by the ONS:-
The provisional number of UK births in 2014 was 776,351. This is a fall of 0.3% compared with 2013 when there were 778,805 births.
In Scotland the number of births increased from 56,014 in 2013 to 56,725 in 2014 (provisional figure), a rise of 1.3%. Northern Ireland also recorded an increase in the number of births from 24,279 in 2013 to 24,393, a rise of 0.5%.
Honestly @cafcnick1992 I'm not trying to pick on you, really I'm not
I believe the EU bureaucrats haven't managed the immigration "question" very well at all over the past few years and unsurprisingly most politicians have been pretty useless too. This is all now beginning to bite them on the bum as I'm sure you've been reading.
Interstingly, there's a story in the Canadian press about how the 'Europeans" are getting set to deport "hundreds of thousands of Muslims" - http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/lawrence-solomon-europe-is-planning-to-deport-hundreds-of-thousands-of-muslims
I think it'll get sorted but probably not quick enough to prevent some of the Fleet Street crowd using selective information to colour people's views unfairly.
So that's one more falsehood that can be put to bed.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12147334/France-contradicts-Cameron-over-Calais-migrant-camps.html
The Telegraph story is based on "a source at the French Interior Ministry". That could be a junior bureaucrat the reporter is shagging. We are talking Paris here.
Both the Mayor and Deputy Mayor of Calais have called for the arrangement to be scrapped if there is a Brexit. A senior British diplomat has put it even more succinctly.
It may be that Cameron has exaggerated the concept of camps springing up immediately, but use your common sense, man. Why in the event of Brexit would the French continue to allow British police on their soil, the result of which creates huge problems for an innocent French town?
You can say goodbye to the Eurostar terminals at Paris and Brussels too
You can say goodbye to the Eurostar terminals at Paris and Brussels too
Really ???? And why would that be ? Is it because the French and Belgiums won't want any tourists and businessmen spending any money in their capitals after Brexit and they'd rather parts of their local economies were shut down ? Or is it because the French will want to write off their huge investment in Eurostar ?