The Royal Navy ship designers have a lot to answer for, my Great Grandfather was one of the poor unfortunate souls to lose their life on HMS Invincible 1020 in total with only 6 survivors.
RIP
Not a lot wrong with the design of the Invincible or the way it was built by Armstrong Whitworth. Don't forget, along with the Inflexible, she sank the Scharnorst and Gneisenau in the Falklands even after taken several hits.
FIrst Sea Lord Fisher wanted ships with big guns and fast speed, and the battlecruisers like Invincible were lightly armoured. This was fine when up against the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau where the battle cruisers made sure that the German ships 7 inch guns couldn't reach, and could be picked off by their own 12" guns. They received a few hits from the Germans longer ranged 5" guns, which they could survive ok.
However when they came up against other Battleships and Battlecrusers at Jutland their lack of armour (about half of the German ships), showed as a weakness. Mind you as you mentioned propping open anti- blast doors and leaving drums of cordite around doesn't help.
SMS Scharnhorst and Gneisenau had 9" guns but otherwise your point is valid. It could have been very different if Graf Spee's squadron had closed and attacked when they saw the British battlecruisers at anchor rather than running and getting caught at long range, the British would have been unable to manoeuvre and may have taken quite a pasting.
Would love to know what happened to my grandfather. He was on HMS Bellerophon at Jutland, after that nothing heard of him. Don't know if he was lost in battle or wandered off somewhere for other reasons.
Fascinating LG - You should do some more research.
Although the Bellerophon was at Jutland, it didn't receive a single hit from the High Seas Fleet.
Only recently found out that my great uncle was on HMS Indomitable at Jutland and in naval reserve during WW2. Would be happy to see what I can find out about your grandfather. I do a lot of research into my own family and I am sure I will be able to find out something about him for you.
The Royal Navy ship designers have a lot to answer for, my Great Grandfather was one of the poor unfortunate souls to lose their life on HMS Invincible 1020 in total with only 6 survivors.
RIP
Not a lot wrong with the design of the Invincible or the way it was built by Armstrong Whitworth. Don't forget, along with the Inflexible, she sank the Scharnorst and Gneisenau in the Falklands even after taken several hits.
FIrst Sea Lord Fisher wanted ships with big guns and fast speed, and the battlecruisers like Invincible were lightly armoured. This was fine when up against the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau where the battle cruisers made sure that the German ships 7 inch guns couldn't reach, and could be picked off by their own 12" guns. They received a few hits from the Germans longer ranged 5" guns, which they could survive ok.
However when they came up against other Battleships and Battlecrusers at Jutland their lack of armour (about half of the German ships), showed as a weakness. Mind you as you mentioned propping open anti- blast doors and leaving drums of cordite around doesn't help.
I was under the impression that most of the armour on the decks was stripped down on a lot of the ships of that time, the loss of the weight aided with the speed they wanted
Battlecruisers were designed with less armour so as to aid speed (the idea was a battlecruiser could sink anything smaller that she could catch [as at the Falklands in 1915] but run away from anything that could sink her), I never heard of any battlecruisers or battleships purposely having armour removed to increase the speed. It was also thought the big guns would enable them to join the line of battle but Jutland and HMS Hood succumbing to Bismarck shows the folly of that line of thought.
Been to the National maritime museum today and they have a small and new Jutland Gallery and today talks about the VC's won at Jutland. HMS Warspite was a proper Battleship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Warspite_(03) and served 1913 to 1947, shame she wasn't preserved, other than Victory and Belfast we have done a very poor job of preserving our naval history. http://www.nmrn.org.uk/exhibitions-projects/hms-caroline being it from that period.
Been to the National maritime museum today and they have a small and new Jutland Gallery and today talks about the VC's won at Jutland. HMS Warspite was a proper Battleship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Warspite_(03) and served 1913 to 1947, shame she wasn't preserved, other than Victory and Belfast we have done a very poor job of preserving our naval history. http://www.nmrn.org.uk/exhibitions-projects/hms-caroline being it from that period.
There's a film you can find on line about the scrapping of HMS Vanguard in 1960. There's mention there of preserving her for the nation and the notion is dismissed out of hand.
There's a film you can find on line about the scrapping of HMS Vanguard in 1960. There's mention there of preserving her for the nation and the notion is dismissed out of hand.
Should definately have saved Warspite (and Vanguard as the last of the battleships), she served in nearly every naval action. The Americans saved quite a few Battleships, possibly because they were named after US states who often financed their preservation as national monuments.
There's a film you can find on line about the scrapping of HMS Vanguard in 1960. There's mention there of preserving her for the nation and the notion is dismissed out of hand.
Should definately have saved Warspite (and Vanguard as the last of the battleships), she served in nearly every naval action. The Americans saved quite a few Battleships, possibly because they were named after US states who often preserved them.
In any other country, a warship with the history of HMS Warspite would've definitely been saved. The Royal Navy has always been very unsentimental about saving it's historic vessels. HMS Victory was for many years the only one. As a maritime nation, we should definitely have preserved HMS Warspite and probably HMS King George V (of Bismarck fame) from the battleship era, as well as one of our large aircraft carriers. At least there has been some movement towards ship preservation in recent years, with HMS Belfast in the Pool of London, HMS Cavalier & HMS Ocelot at Chatham, HMS Victory, HMS M33, HMS Alliance, and HMS Warrior at Portsmouth and the nuclear submarine HMS Courageous at Devonport. As from today, there is a new addition to those ranks with the opening to the public of HMS Caroline at Belfast, a light cruiser and the last surviving warship that fought at Jutland.
There are one or two other projects in the pipeline to bring vessels home (HMS Whimbrel) might still be repatriated from Egypt to go on display at Liverpool but as for battleships, we need to visit the USA to see one.
There's a film you can find on line about the scrapping of HMS Vanguard in 1960. There's mention there of preserving her for the nation and the notion is dismissed out of hand.
Should definately have saved Warspite (and Vanguard as the last of the battleships), she served in nearly every naval action. The Americans saved quite a few Battleships, possibly because they were named after US states who often preserved them.
In any other country, a warship with the history of HMS Warspite would've definitely been saved. The Royal Navy has always been very unsentimental about saving it's historic vessels. HMS Victory was for many years the only one. As a maritime nation, we should definitely have preserved HMS Warspite and probably HMS King George V (of Bismarck fame) from the battleship era, as well as one of our large aircraft carriers. At least there has been some movement towards ship preservation in recent years, with HMS Belfast in the Pool of London, HMS Cavalier & HMS Ocelot at Chatham, HMS Victory, HMS M33, HMS Alliance, and HMS Warrior at Portsmouth and the nuclear submarine HMS Courageous at Devonport. As from today, there is a new addition to those ranks with the opening to the public of HMS Caroline at Belfast, a light cruiser and the last surviving warship that fought at Jutland.
There are one or two other projects in the pipeline to bring vessels home (HMS Whimbrel) might still be repatriated from Egypt to go on display at Liverpool but as for battleships, we need to visit the USA to see one.
HMS Rodney had more of a claim from the Bismarck action for being preserved as she was the only battleship ever to torpedo another battleship, if not a ship of any type. But HMS Warspite going to the breakers' yard is the real crime (although she didn't go quietly and ran aground on the way). She was at Jutland, second Narvik, D-Day, Cape Matapan, and much more besides.
There's a film you can find on line about the scrapping of HMS Vanguard in 1960. There's mention there of preserving her for the nation and the notion is dismissed out of hand.
Should definately have saved Warspite (and Vanguard as the last of the battleships), she served in nearly every naval action. The Americans saved quite a few Battleships, possibly because they were named after US states who often preserved them.
In any other country, a warship with the history of HMS Warspite would've definitely been saved. The Royal Navy has always been very unsentimental about saving it's historic vessels. HMS Victory was for many years the only one. As a maritime nation, we should definitely have preserved HMS Warspite and probably HMS King George V (of Bismarck fame) from the battleship era, as well as one of our large aircraft carriers. At least there has been some movement towards ship preservation in recent years, with HMS Belfast in the Pool of London, HMS Cavalier & HMS Ocelot at Chatham, HMS Victory, HMS M33, HMS Alliance, and HMS Warrior at Portsmouth and the nuclear submarine HMS Courageous at Devonport. As from today, there is a new addition to those ranks with the opening to the public of HMS Caroline at Belfast, a light cruiser and the last surviving warship that fought at Jutland.
There are one or two other projects in the pipeline to bring vessels home (HMS Whimbrel) might still be repatriated from Egypt to go on display at Liverpool but as for battleships, we need to visit the USA to see one.
HMS Rodney had more of a claim from the Bismarck action for being preserved as she was the only battleship ever to torpedo another battleship, if not a ship of any type. But HMS Warspite going to the breakers' yard is the real crime (although she didn't go quietly and ran aground on the way). She was at Jutland, second Narvik, D-Day, Cape Matapan, and much more besides.
Rodney is not a bad call, although apart from the Bismarck action and Normandy gunfire support, did little else in the war as she was basically worn out by 1941 and in normal times would've been taken out of service for a major refit. She was actually en route to the USA for a refit with all manner of stores lashed to her deck when she was diverted to take part in the hunt for the Bismarck. She was the only battleship to torpedo another battleship for sure. My reason for choosing KGV is that she represented a later type of battleship that saw plenty of action (Bismarck, Arctic Convoys, Salerno, Pacific) but as you say, the real crime was not preserving Warspite.
Comments
Battlecruisers were designed with less armour so as to aid speed (the idea was a battlecruiser could sink anything smaller that she could catch [as at the Falklands in 1915] but run away from anything that could sink her), I never heard of any battlecruisers or battleships purposely having armour removed to increase the speed. It was also thought the big guns would enable them to join the line of battle but Jutland and HMS Hood succumbing to Bismarck shows the folly of that line of thought.
RIP
Should definately have saved Warspite (and Vanguard as the last of the battleships), she served in nearly every naval action. The Americans saved quite a few Battleships, possibly because they were named after US states who often financed their preservation as national monuments.
In any other country, a warship with the history of HMS Warspite would've definitely been saved. The Royal Navy has always been very unsentimental about saving it's historic vessels. HMS Victory was for many years the only one. As a maritime nation, we should definitely have preserved HMS Warspite and probably HMS King George V (of Bismarck fame) from the battleship era, as well as one of our large aircraft carriers. At least there has been some movement towards ship preservation in recent years, with HMS Belfast in the Pool of London, HMS Cavalier & HMS Ocelot at Chatham, HMS Victory, HMS M33, HMS Alliance, and HMS Warrior at Portsmouth and the nuclear submarine HMS Courageous at Devonport. As from today, there is a new addition to those ranks with the opening to the public of HMS Caroline at Belfast, a light cruiser and the last surviving warship that fought at Jutland.
There are one or two other projects in the pipeline to bring vessels home (HMS Whimbrel) might still be repatriated from Egypt to go on display at Liverpool but as for battleships, we need to visit the USA to see one.
There are one or two other projects in the pipeline to bring vessels home (HMS Whimbrel) might still be repatriated from Egypt to go on display at Liverpool but as for battleships, we need to visit the USA to see one.
HMS Rodney had more of a claim from the Bismarck action for being preserved as she was the only battleship ever to torpedo another battleship, if not a ship of any type. But HMS Warspite going to the breakers' yard is the real crime (although she didn't go quietly and ran aground on the way). She was at Jutland, second Narvik, D-Day, Cape Matapan, and much more besides.
Rodney is not a bad call, although apart from the Bismarck action and Normandy gunfire support, did little else in the war as she was basically worn out by 1941 and in normal times would've been taken out of service for a major refit. She was actually en route to the USA for a refit with all manner of stores lashed to her deck when she was diverted to take part in the hunt for the Bismarck. She was the only battleship to torpedo another battleship for sure. My reason for choosing KGV is that she represented a later type of battleship that saw plenty of action (Bismarck, Arctic Convoys, Salerno, Pacific) but as you say, the real crime was not preserving Warspite.