It's scary really how incidents like this demonstrate how terrorism against the west has developed over the past 15 years.
At the turn of the century I thought terrorism took something drastic like hijacking a plane. That has now been prevented against massively. Then it became just running out into the street with guns. Now you don't even need 'weapons' to cause such damage.
There is actually nothing that can be done to stop this is there? It's terrifying.
As a species and for all of our modern technology, learning and supposed humanity, we really are sorry specimens. When is all the bloodshed in this world going to stop and different cultures can learn to live alongside each other in relative peace, my thoughts are with the poor victims families and loved ones tonight...needless loss, another sad day
France's absolutely lacklustre police being shown up again. Needs a serious overhaul, the attacks on France are almost as common as those in Turkey/ Iraq etc. a HIC Western European country should be catching this much, much earlier.
After incident with the dustcart in Scotland that turned out to be a tragic accident I always thought that it could be an easy scum terrorist method of wiping many out.
The amount of people that wait at traffic lights in the city during rush hour is huge at some crossing points.
France's absolutely lacklustre police being shown up again. Needs a serious overhaul, the attacks on France are almost as common as those in Turkey/ Iraq etc. a HIC Western European country should be catching this much, much earlier.
Tbh mate, it looks like the Police on the scene prevented this from being even worse, considering he appears to have had a mini arsenal in that lorry with him
France's absolutely lacklustre police being shown up again. Needs a serious overhaul, the attacks on France are almost as common as those in Turkey/ Iraq etc. a HIC Western European country should be catching this much, much earlier.
Tbh mate, it looks like the Police on the scene prevented this from being even worse, considering he appears to have had a mini arsenal in that lorry with him
Perhaps, but what is it, 73? dead. Attacks across the UK and USA are thwarted all the time, but a hell of a lot more seem to 'make it through' in France. Not the men on the street police, there is clearly some kind of issue with the intelligence area.
As a species and for all of our modern technology, learning and supposed humanity, we really are sorry specimens. When is all the bloodshed in this world going to stop and different cultures can learn to live alongside each other in relative peace, my thoughts are with the poor victims families and loved ones tonight...needless loss, another sad day
We are sorry specimens? I find that statement insulting.
Are you deliberately choosing to not acknowledge the particular culture/religion responsible for this attack?
Next time you drive look how easy it would be for you to do similar. You don't need training or weapons.
Someone will know someone who will know about it happening. The amount of weapons etc. found in the lorry show the planning that went in to it. Look at the amount of attacks in France in the past year or 2. There is undeniably a huge issue.
France's absolutely lacklustre police being shown up again. Needs a serious overhaul, the attacks on France are almost as common as those in Turkey/ Iraq etc. a HIC Western European country should be catching this much, much earlier.
Tbh mate, it looks like the Police on the scene prevented this from being even worse, considering he appears to have had a mini arsenal in that lorry with him
Perhaps, but what is it, 73? dead. Attacks across the UK and USA are thwarted all the time, but a hell of a lot more seem to 'make it through' in France. Not the men on the street police, there is clearly some kind of issue with the intelligence area.
Not sure what you could've done to stop this particular attack. Obviously we've had no word about the suspect but any truck driver could wake up tomorrow and choose to do this with zero planning. Impossible for the police to know until its too late.
I'm just glad they stopped the driver in time that he wasn't able to use any weapons in the back.
France's absolutely lacklustre police being shown up again. Needs a serious overhaul, the attacks on France are almost as common as those in Turkey/ Iraq etc. a HIC Western European country should be catching this much, much earlier.
Tbh mate, it looks like the Police on the scene prevented this from being even worse, considering he appears to have had a mini arsenal in that lorry with him
Perhaps, but what is it, 73? dead. Attacks across the UK and USA are thwarted all the time, but a hell of a lot more seem to 'make it through' in France. Not the men on the street police, there is clearly some kind of issue with the intelligence area.
I think you may be correct in saying that their Security Services need a shake-up, not necessarily their police. They seem to have been absolutely hammered over the past 18 months.
Unfortunately the odds are always going to be stacked against the intelligence community though, to quote The IRA (not something I thought I'd ever do.):
Today we were unlucky, but remember we only have to be lucky once. You will have to be lucky always.
Failed attempts and foiled plots don't always make the news. Not to mention that although the lorry may have had weapons in, it doesn't appear that they were used; i.e the damage would've been the same without any prohibited items.
France's absolutely lacklustre police being shown up again. Needs a serious overhaul, the attacks on France are almost as common as those in Turkey/ Iraq etc. a HIC Western European country should be catching this much, much earlier.
Whilst I agree when it comes to things like football the French Police are dire, it's very easy to criticize when I doubt you have any responsibility or experience in this kind of thing or have taken any interest in the country's politics or cultural landscape. An attack like this is practically impossible to stop because when it's a simple attack by one or two people what intelligence is there really going to be? Unless a witness happens to find out and tells the authorities?
I love France and the people but I'm convinced that one of the main reasons France has more attacks is not because of the Police's lack of ability but because the country's housing policy in its major cities over decades has hugely marginalised immigrants and the poor, which has led to more radicalisation. To an extent far greater than we have over here. Plus you mention the weapons but there are far more weapons easily obtainable in mainland Europe than there are here simply because of the open borders where as we are an island, the fact that many countries have weapons legally anyway which we don't, and more importantly because the open borders are within easy reach of eastern european countries which is where the vast majority of illegal weapons in western europe come from. Criminals (and dodgy authorities) in Eastern europe have loads of arms and they don't give a fuck about who they sell them to.
People see cities like Paris and Nice as beautiful cities, and they are, but they achieve that a lot by pushing council estates and it's poverty to the outskirts of the city where they hope no one will see. Next time you visit Paris, leave the rich tourist centre and drive to the estates in the outskirts. They are more grim than any council estate you will see in London, Manchester, Birmingham, Berlin, Barcelona etc.... You can be walking around a nice area in the centre of London or other capital cities and turn a corner and you're on a council estate. Not so in Paris and some of it's other "beautiful" cities. And of course the poverty areas tend to have the biggest poor immigrants and therefore Muslims. That breeds further poverty and animosity. London thankfully has not done that (yet). Whilst things are changing and people are trying to gentrify everywhere, we (and other European cities) still have rich housing next door to poor estates, and that has made for more integration. It isn't just a simple question of intelligence by the authorities but creating the breeding grounds for the situations to be more likely.
Sickening for all the innocent people and their families, and as usual they are all easy innocent people targeted by cowards and not people who could ever be described as legitimate targets who could fight back. RIP.
France's absolutely lacklustre police being shown up again. Needs a serious overhaul, the attacks on France are almost as common as those in Turkey/ Iraq etc. a HIC Western European country should be catching this much, much earlier.
Tbh mate, it looks like the Police on the scene prevented this from being even worse, considering he appears to have had a mini arsenal in that lorry with him
Perhaps, but what is it, 73? dead. Attacks across the UK and USA are thwarted all the time, but a hell of a lot more seem to 'make it through' in France. Not the men on the street police, there is clearly some kind of issue with the intelligence area.
Actually, we had something very similar happen a couple miles from where I was in high school at the time. It was an elderly man, 84, who confused the accelerator with the the break and ran into a farmer's market in Santa Monica, killing 10. Given how busy 3rd Street can be, it was *lucky* that there weren't more casualties.
Weller's car struck a 2003 Mercedes-Benz S430 sedan that had stopped to allow pedestrians through a crosswalk, then accelerated around a road closure sign, crashed through wooden sawhorses, and plowed through the busy marketplace crowd, traveling nearly 1,000 feet (300 m) at speeds between 40 and 60 mph (60 and 100 km/h). The entire sequence of collisions took at least 10 seconds.
By the time the car came to a halt, ten people had been killed and 63 were injured. Weller told investigators he had accidentally placed his foot on the accelerator pedal instead of the brake, then tried to brake but could not stop.
The Guardian has talked about how this was an idea of Al-Qaeda's going back years. Al-Qaeda were a centralized organization, and attempted to train and then send back people to commit acts of terror. ISIS, who we are making the assumption are the motivators behind such an attack, have such a de-centralized approach that really allows anyone to do anything in their name. A great example of this is Mateen, the Pulse night club shooter who professed allegiance to ISIS...and Hezbollah, and was bigoted against well, most people.
I am making a lot of assumptions with the above that this is an attack tied to ISIS. Given that anti-terrorism police are involved, it seems likely, but it's important to note that the early reports are often the least factual. I'll leave you with an article from the Atlantic called "What Isis Really Want" (What they really, really want) that I think everyone should read.
France's absolutely lacklustre police being shown up again. Needs a serious overhaul, the attacks on France are almost as common as those in Turkey/ Iraq etc. a HIC Western European country should be catching this much, much earlier.
Whilst I agree when it comes to things like football the French Police are dire, it's very easy to criticize when I doubt you have any responsibility or experience in this kind of thing or have taken any interest in the country's politics or cultural landscape. An attack like this is practically impossible to stop because when it's a simple attack by one or two people what intelligence is there really going to be? Unless a witness happens to find out and tells the authorities?
I love France and the people but I'm convinced that one of the main reasons France has more attacks is not because of the Police's lack of ability but because the country's housing policy in its major cities over decades has hugely marginalised immigrants and the poor, which has led to more radicalisation. To an extent far greater than we have over here. Plus you mention the weapons but there are far more weapons easily obtainable in mainland Europe than there are here simply because of the open borders where as we are an island, the fact that many countries have weapons legally anyway which we don't, and more importantly because the open borders are within easy reach of eastern european countries which is where the vast majority of illegal weapons in western europe come from. Criminals (and dodgy authorities) in Eastern europe have loads of arms and they don't give a fuck about who they sell them to.
People see cities like Paris and Nice as beautiful cities, and they are, but they achieve that a lot by pushing council estates and it's poverty to the outskirts of the city where they hope no one will see. Next time you visit Paris, leave the rich tourist centre and drive to the estates in the outskirts. They are more grim than any council estate you will see in London, Manchester, Birmingham, Berlin, Barcelona etc.... You can be walking around a nice area in the centre of London or other capital cities and turn a corner and you're on a council estate. Not so in Paris and some of it's other "beautiful" cities. And of course the poverty areas tend to have the biggest poor immigrants and therefore Muslims. That breeds further poverty and animosity. London thankfully has not done that (yet). Whilst things are changing and people are trying to gentrify everywhere, we (and other European cities) still have rich housing next door to poor estates, and that has made for more integration. It isn't just a simple question of intelligence by the authorities but creating the breeding grounds for the situations to be more likely.
Sickening for all the innocent people and their families, and as usual they are all easy innocent people targeted by cowards and not people who could ever be described as legitimate targets who could fight back. RIP.
Some absolutely brilliant, insightful points in there. I agree, and do not believe it's an accident that this happens in France which has traditional difficulties integrating migrant communities into larger society (I should add I think this is a problem in much of western Europe). As you point out, housing is a major part of this, as well as the economy, unemployment/employment opportunities . These things don't happen in a vacuum, and when you look at perpetrators of these attacks, they are domestic born young men from "ghettos" of otherwise wealthy cities.
It should go without saying that none of this justifies their actions, and difficulty to blend a variety of cultures should not be punished by a perpetual terror campaign.
Hollande: State of Emergency which was due to finish at the end of the month is set to be extended three months, until the end of October.
Hollande: "France has been attacked on our national day"; confirms 77 deaths as of 0245.
Hollande: "France will always be stronger than those who wish to attack it"
Hollande: Continued strikes in Iraq and Syria, aimed at "those cells" who attacked. An early confirmation of ISIS involvement?
Hollande: In addition to renewing the State of Emergency, he has called up military reserves according to Bloomberg. This amounts to approximately 10,000 extra members of the Security Forces apparently.
ITV News: Have just tweeted a pretty horrific 30 second clip of the truck as it accelerated in to the crowd. Once again.. Why?
Interior Ministry: The death toll now stands at 80, 18 wounded critically.
Associated Press: Rumours that the identity papers of a French-Tunisian individual have been confirmed.
@i_b_b_o_r_g - what's the mood in France been like recently?
I read this article 2 days ago in The Express, where the Director General of Internal Security suggested it was almost close to civil war. He went as far as to say that one more attack could provide the catalyst.
He said that the situation in France is on such a knife edge that it could just take one more major Islamist terror attack to lead to a huge right-wing backlash.
I understand that things are tense there, but do they really seem so volatile at the moment? I think I read something about documents from the Bataclan attack being released this week, and them detailing torture and mutilation that happened on the victims that was never publicly released at the time; I presume that's fed in to the anger too?
I've been keeping an eye on Twitter and I've been stunned by how one sided a lot of the commentary is. I've seen very few of the usual comments defending Islam and the migrant population, comments which always seem to be of similar (or greater) volume to the more aggressive anti-Islam comments.
Things seem to be at an incredibly worrying stage all over Europe and the US at the moment, and there seems to be a lot of anger at risk of bubbling over. I think it's terrifying to be honest, and I'm not usually that concerned - I just feel like those who are angry have grown beyond a minority.
On a personal level, I can't quite put my finger on why, but this attack seems to have struck a real chord with me. Naturally all of the events of the past 18 months have been disgusting and tragic, but this one just seems even worse. I'm not sure if it's due to the way it was done, the horrific death toll, or what. It's absolutely fucking awful, and makes me pretty gutted about the prospect of bringing a little lad (or lass) in to the world.
France's absolutely lacklustre police being shown up again. Needs a serious overhaul, the attacks on France are almost as common as those in Turkey/ Iraq etc. a HIC Western European country should be catching this much, much earlier.
Tbh mate, it looks like the Police on the scene prevented this from being even worse, considering he appears to have had a mini arsenal in that lorry with him
Perhaps, but what is it, 73? dead. Attacks across the UK and USA are thwarted all the time, but a hell of a lot more seem to 'make it through' in France. Not the men on the street police, there is clearly some kind of issue with the intelligence area.
Really? Do we know how many attacks are thwarted in the UK v France? Maybe they just have a much bigger problem than we do.
As a species and for all of our modern technology, learning and supposed humanity, we really are sorry specimens. When is all the bloodshed in this world going to stop and different cultures can learn to live alongside each other in relative peace, my thoughts are with the poor victims families and loved ones tonight...needless loss, another sad day
We are sorry specimens? I find that statement insulting.
Are you deliberately choosing to not acknowledge the particular culture/religion responsible for this attack?
Are you deliberately choosing to ignore attacks all over the world by many cultures/religions?
I have to agree, for all our intellect and wisdom, we really are a sad, self hating species.
Desperately sad news to wake up to. My thoughts go out to the dead and injured, and their families.
Unfortunately, Bastille Day provided the perfect opportunity for someone (I presume) following the twisted ideology of ISIS/Al Qaeda to kill and maim on an industrial scale; just as the breaking of the Ramadan fast did in Baghdad a couple of weeks ago.
In reality, there is very little that any authorities can do to stop a lone attacker, or individual terror cell, if they are determined enough. Quite often, family members won't have the first clue that anything is going on in advance (whether an attack has a specific motivation or not).
The attack is designed to sow fear across Western Europe, and beyond, but also, and more importantly, hate. The ideology behind it requires that the West tars all Muslims with the same brush and acts to marginalise them (though, when this ideology says Muslims, it does not count any of the many versions that they deem heretical). These people want a clash of civilizations, unfortunately, I fear that that may happen in my lifetime.
Cowards - soft attacks of men, women and children out enjoying themselves - designed to cause as much pain as possible and with the least amount of reprisals. Terrorists who act in the misguided belief that their god will reward them for their actions. In any normal society people professing such beliefs would be locked away and institutionalised for expressing such beliefs.
Comments
At the turn of the century I thought terrorism took something drastic like hijacking a plane. That has now been prevented against massively. Then it became just running out into the street with guns. Now you don't even need 'weapons' to cause such damage.
There is actually nothing that can be done to stop this is there? It's terrifying.
RIP to all those poor people, their families friends and loved ones are now victims too, we all are in a way.
The amount of people that wait at traffic lights in the city during rush hour is huge at some crossing points.
Next time you drive look how easy it would be for you to do similar. You don't need training or weapons.
Are you deliberately choosing to not acknowledge the particular culture/religion responsible for this attack?
I'm just glad they stopped the driver in time that he wasn't able to use any weapons in the back.
Unfortunately the odds are always going to be stacked against the intelligence community though, to quote The IRA (not something I thought I'd ever do.): Failed attempts and foiled plots don't always make the news. Not to mention that although the lorry may have had weapons in, it doesn't appear that they were used; i.e the damage would've been the same without any prohibited items.
Nice is a beautiful part of the world and the people are incredibly welcoming. I hate being part of the human race at times
My heart goes out to anyone affected
The kind of world nobody wants their children to grow up in.
An attack like this is practically impossible to stop because when it's a simple attack by one or two people what intelligence is there really going to be? Unless a witness happens to find out and tells the authorities?
I love France and the people but I'm convinced that one of the main reasons France has more attacks is not because of the Police's lack of ability but because the country's housing policy in its major cities over decades has hugely marginalised immigrants and the poor, which has led to more radicalisation. To an extent far greater than we have over here. Plus you mention the weapons but there are far more weapons easily obtainable in mainland Europe than there are here simply because of the open borders where as we are an island, the fact that many countries have weapons legally anyway which we don't, and more importantly because the open borders are within easy reach of eastern european countries which is where the vast majority of illegal weapons in western europe come from. Criminals (and dodgy authorities) in Eastern europe have loads of arms and they don't give a fuck about who they sell them to.
People see cities like Paris and Nice as beautiful cities, and they are, but they achieve that a lot by pushing council estates and it's poverty to the outskirts of the city where they hope no one will see. Next time you visit Paris, leave the rich tourist centre and drive to the estates in the outskirts. They are more grim than any council estate you will see in London, Manchester, Birmingham, Berlin, Barcelona etc.... You can be walking around a nice area in the centre of London or other capital cities and turn a corner and you're on a council estate. Not so in Paris and some of it's other "beautiful" cities. And of course the poverty areas tend to have the biggest poor immigrants and therefore Muslims. That breeds further poverty and animosity. London thankfully has not done that (yet). Whilst things are changing and people are trying to gentrify everywhere, we (and other European cities) still have rich housing next door to poor estates, and that has made for more integration. It isn't just a simple question of intelligence by the authorities but creating the breeding grounds for the situations to be more likely.
Sickening for all the innocent people and their families, and as usual they are all easy innocent people targeted by cowards and not people who could ever be described as legitimate targets who could fight back. RIP.
Weller's car struck a 2003 Mercedes-Benz S430 sedan that had stopped to allow pedestrians through a crosswalk, then accelerated around a road closure sign, crashed through wooden sawhorses, and plowed through the busy marketplace crowd, traveling nearly 1,000 feet (300 m) at speeds between 40 and 60 mph (60 and 100 km/h). The entire sequence of collisions took at least 10 seconds.
By the time the car came to a halt, ten people had been killed and 63 were injured. Weller told investigators he had accidentally placed his foot on the accelerator pedal instead of the brake, then tried to brake but could not stop.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Monica_Farmers_Market_crash
The Guardian has talked about how this was an idea of Al-Qaeda's going back years. Al-Qaeda were a centralized organization, and attempted to train and then send back people to commit acts of terror. ISIS, who we are making the assumption are the motivators behind such an attack, have such a de-centralized approach that really allows anyone to do anything in their name. A great example of this is Mateen, the Pulse night club shooter who professed allegiance to ISIS...and Hezbollah, and was bigoted against well, most people.
I am making a lot of assumptions with the above that this is an attack tied to ISIS. Given that anti-terrorism police are involved, it seems likely, but it's important to note that the early reports are often the least factual. I'll leave you with an article from the Atlantic called "What Isis Really Want" (What they really, really want) that I think everyone should read.
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/
Sending love to France. Liberté, égalité, fraternité.
It should go without saying that none of this justifies their actions, and difficulty to blend a variety of cultures should not be punished by a perpetual terror campaign.
Hollande: "France has been attacked on our national day"; confirms 77 deaths as of 0245.
Hollande: "France will always be stronger than those who wish to attack it"
Hollande: Continued strikes in Iraq and Syria, aimed at "those cells" who attacked. An early confirmation of ISIS involvement?
Hollande: In addition to renewing the State of Emergency, he has called up military reserves according to Bloomberg. This amounts to approximately 10,000 extra members of the Security Forces apparently.
ITV News: Have just tweeted a pretty horrific 30 second clip of the truck as it accelerated in to the crowd. Once again.. Why?
Interior Ministry: The death toll now stands at 80, 18 wounded critically.
Associated Press: Rumours that the identity papers of a French-Tunisian individual have been confirmed.
I read this article 2 days ago in The Express, where the Director General of Internal Security suggested it was almost close to civil war. He went as far as to say that one more attack could provide the catalyst. I understand that things are tense there, but do they really seem so volatile at the moment? I think I read something about documents from the Bataclan attack being released this week, and them detailing torture and mutilation that happened on the victims that was never publicly released at the time; I presume that's fed in to the anger too?
I've been keeping an eye on Twitter and I've been stunned by how one sided a lot of the commentary is. I've seen very few of the usual comments defending Islam and the migrant population, comments which always seem to be of similar (or greater) volume to the more aggressive anti-Islam comments.
Things seem to be at an incredibly worrying stage all over Europe and the US at the moment, and there seems to be a lot of anger at risk of bubbling over. I think it's terrifying to be honest, and I'm not usually that concerned - I just feel like those who are angry have grown beyond a minority.
On a personal level, I can't quite put my finger on why, but this attack seems to have struck a real chord with me. Naturally all of the events of the past 18 months have been disgusting and tragic, but this one just seems even worse. I'm not sure if it's due to the way it was done, the horrific death toll, or what. It's absolutely fucking awful, and makes me pretty gutted about the prospect of bringing a little lad (or lass) in to the world.
I have to agree, for all our intellect and wisdom, we really are a sad, self hating species.
I've got two friends in Nice, thankfully both fine but I felt physically sick when I turned Sky news on.
RIP to those poor eighty souls.
Unfortunately, Bastille Day provided the perfect opportunity for someone (I presume) following the twisted ideology of ISIS/Al Qaeda to kill and maim on an industrial scale; just as the breaking of the Ramadan fast did in Baghdad a couple of weeks ago.
In reality, there is very little that any authorities can do to stop a lone attacker, or individual terror cell, if they are determined enough. Quite often, family members won't have the first clue that anything is going on in advance (whether an attack has a specific motivation or not).
The attack is designed to sow fear across Western Europe, and beyond, but also, and more importantly, hate. The ideology behind it requires that the West tars all Muslims with the same brush and acts to marginalise them (though, when this ideology says Muslims, it does not count any of the many versions that they deem heretical). These people want a clash of civilizations, unfortunately, I fear that that may happen in my lifetime.
RIP
80 dead now
RIP The Innocents