I have been saying for years that we need to develop renewable energy sources. Not just because they are green but because the countries where we buy our gas, oil and even coal supplies are different degrees of evil.
From Saudi and the Middle East through some of North Africa and up into Russia and the former Soviet Union states and then on to China and Venezuela. What one of those countries isn't corrupt? Which one has democracy or even a benign dictatorship? Which of them are known for their equal treatment of women and LGBT? Which of them have a free justice system or a free press?
Successive governments Tory, New Labour and Coalition have continued to turn a blind eye by trading with regimes that routinely do things that our electorate find abhorrent, it is now (predictably) turning round and biting us on the arse. If they can do shit to their own people they sure as hell can do it to us.
By buying their stuff we are backing their regimes, a start would be to stop funding them ourselves.
If you took fossil fuels out of the equation, we would never be seen trading and supporting those regimes. Unfortunately, they literally make our lives go around in the West.
I've been busting my balls for the last 48 hours working on a proposal for a firm that's work is heavily based around Iranian Oil production; and during our initial conversations I was given what was essentially a crash-course in Iran's oil production, historic sanctions and the current situation. I'd never really paid much attention to it until this week, and I've been left a bit stunned at just how low our "civilised" countries will go in their quests for oil, all under the guise of "diplomacy" and "trade".
We may have blood on our hands in Iraq, but we have blood on our hands in many more places thanks to our need for Oil.
Indeed, if you take a look at Iran (odious though many in the hierarchy of that country may be) they have more reason than most to distrust the West; but, because they are mostly Shia, we may actually come to rely on them more.
There are some Middle Eastern countries that are mostly or even partly democratic, or ruled by monarchs/dictators who are not utterly odious, but not many (Lebanon, Tunisia, Morocco, I would almost say Iran, because it has a democracy of sorts, but the Mullahs have too much power). And I am not suggesting for one instant that they are not in some way corrupt.
However, in many ways, we are reaping what we have sown. In our support, for reasons of geopolitics and need for oil, of Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, and their ilk, we have encouraged the rise of fundamentalist Wahhabist Sunni Islam. The House of Saud depends entirely on Wahhabism, and so strengthens it within Saudia Arabia and exports it worldwide - look at mosques and schools built and preachers trained (across the world) with Saudi money, and ask yourself how likely are they to produce liberally minded individuals. Was it surprising that, when Merkel and Germany offered to welcome Syrian refugees, the only Saudi offer was to build mosques? Look at the disasters that have befallen Afghanistan/Pakistan, where the Saudi influence met its perfect match in the equally austere Deobandi tradition.
100 years ago, the Wahhabists were the fringe of Sunni Islam, easily outmatched by others (such as Sufis) that we would dearly wish to have in power across the Middle East today. But now it is the fundamentalist, literal interpretation of Wahhabism that dominates the online and satellite television fora across the Arabic/Islamist world.
The disaffected youth, whether in the Middle East or in Europe, who fall under its spell, and become radicalised are often not good Muslims, in that they may have dabbled in drugs, alcohol and petty crime. Look even at the wealthy young men involved in the attacks on 9/11, were they conspicuously abiding by the teachings of their religion? Most reports indicate that they then find, in a twisted version of Islam, a certainty and a purpose that the rest of their lives cannot provide - the rise of fascism in the 1920s and 1930s would suggest that the allure of a simplistic, if hate filled, world view is not limited only to young Muslim men.
Anyway, we have supported utterly appalling regimes across the Middle East for generations, for reasons that do little to support our notions of having some sort of superior moral compass. Most tragically, we allowed the Arab Spring, when the youth of the Arab world rose up against such regimes, to be whittled away, either by looking in the other direction, or by actively supporting repression (as in Bahrain and Egypt). Where we (as in the West) did intervene against a regime, we did just enough to encourage a descent into chaos, but nowhere near enough to help bring about any kind of reasonable solution.
If we really want to address the rise of violent and nihilistic fundamentalist Islam, we must be pepared for a long haul, of supporting moderate voices, and moving away from our traditional backing for the corrupt, venal elites. We should look to the countries that have the greatest chance of becoming what we would like them to be (assuming we mean liberal democracies) and support them. Let us help Tunisia, Lebanon, et al, be successful economically and socially and that will provide our most potent weapon in the Middle East. In the banlieues of France and across Europe, we need to find ways of giving young people hope and increase their feeling of belonging, and, yes, we need to educate, but we also need to find ways to support moderate voices in Muslim communities as well.
None of this is cheap, it's certainly more expensive than dropping bombs, and could well take many years. Dealing with the root causes requires a long term plan and a willingness to follow Robin Cook's idea of an ethical foreign policy. I won't hold my breath.
Sorry, it's a bit of a rant and, in all honesty, I'm not really sure that there is an easy solution - because we can destroy ISIS, but something else will rise up in its place (like Al Shabaab grew out of the Islamic Courts in Somalia).
The word "Islamaphobia" to me is an Oxymoron. Phobia is an irrational fear, yet to me, there is nothing irrational about fearing the extreme factions of Islam
I am Islamaphobic in exactly the same way I am Naziphobic. They both disgust me and I will never refrain from expressing that disgust because one is a World religion followed by 1.6 billion misguided fools.
there is not enough facepalm on the entire internet for you
Your never ending quest to satisfy your narcissistic self image as the most PC man on the planet by trying to judge and control what people say on here is a joke most of the time but at a time like this it is fucking annoying.
The word "Islamaphobia" to me is an Oxymoron. Phobia is an irrational fear, yet to me, there is nothing irrational about fearing the extreme factions of Islam
I am Islamaphobic in exactly the same way I am Naziphobic. They both disgust me and I will never refrain from expressing that disgust because one is a World religion followed by 1.6 billion misguided fools.
there is not enough facepalm on the entire internet for you
Your never ending quest to satisfy your narcissistic self image as the most PC man on the planet by trying to judge and control what people say on here is a joke most of the time but at time like this it is fucking annoying.
He has a point in this instance though. You're saying you are scared by every person that follows Islam? If not then you have worded your post very poorly.
I have been saying for years that we need to develop renewable energy sources. Not just because they are green but because the countries where we buy our gas, oil and even coal supplies are different degrees of evil.
From Saudi and the Middle East through some of North Africa and up into Russia and the former Soviet Union states and then on to China and Venezuela. What one of those countries isn't corrupt? Which one has democracy or even a benign dictatorship? Which of them are known for their equal treatment of women and LGBT? Which of them have a free justice system or a free press?
Successive governments Tory, New Labour and Coalition have continued to turn a blind eye by trading with regimes that routinely do things that our electorate find abhorrent, it is now (predictably) turning round and biting us on the arse. If they can do shit to their own people they sure as hell can do it to us.
By buying their stuff we are backing their regimes, a start would be to stop funding them ourselves.
If you took fossil fuels out of the equation, we would never be seen trading and supporting those regimes. Unfortunately, they literally make our lives go around in the West.
I've been busting my balls for the last 48 hours working on a proposal for a firm that's work is heavily based around Iranian Oil production; and during our initial conversations I was given what was essentially a crash-course in Iran's oil production, historic sanctions and the current situation. I'd never really paid much attention to it until this week, and I've been left a bit stunned at just how low our "civilised" countries will go in their quests for oil, all under the guise of "diplomacy" and "trade".
We may have blood on our hands in Iraq, but we have blood on our hands in many more places thanks to our need for Oil.
The sad fact is it would take a small portion of the sun that fell on the Sahara desert to satisfy the world's energy needs for one year
Every year me and my family go and stay with my missus' family who live near hay on wye and we go to the hay festival for the bank holiday in may. Every year A. C Grayling does a talk and me and my old man go and make a point of going to see him.
This year he said something very interesting, that after the 30 years war in Germany and a generation of conflict between two sects of christianity that had been at each others throats for years (protestant and catholicism) where a huge percentage of german speaking men died, the renaissance happened in europe. This was a result of the war and destruction that had happened and, what was A C Grayling's point, that although war should be avoided at all costs, it tends to create huge advances in technology and of thinking. In 1600 people went outside at night, gazed up at the stars and saw beacons the almighty had lit, in 1700, people went outside at night, gazed up at the stars and saw balls of gas like our sun burning trillions upon trillions of miles away.
He went on to say that what's going on in the middle east and the fighting between sunni and shia and the warlords in the area has similarities to that of the thirty years war, and went on to say that if humanity can survive the next hundred or so years without blowing ourselves up with nuclear weapons, we may well see cultural and technological leaps in the middle east as a result of all the war and bloodshed finally coming to an end.
An interesting perspective and although doesn't solve anything short or medium term, gives a spark of hope for the future.
The word "Islamaphobia" to me is an Oxymoron. Phobia is an irrational fear, yet to me, there is nothing irrational about fearing the extreme factions of Islam
I am Islamaphobic in exactly the same way I am Naziphobic. They both disgust me and I will never refrain from expressing that disgust because one is a World religion followed by 1.6 billion misguided fools.
there is not enough facepalm on the entire internet for you
Your never ending quest to satisfy your narcissistic self image as the most PC man on the planet by trying to judge and control what people say on here is a joke most of the time but at time like this it is fucking annoying.
He has a point in this instance though. You're saying you are scared by every person that follows Islam? If not then you have worded your post very poorly.
Not really. I have been following events in Bangladesh over the last 12 months. If anyone publicly admits to being an atheist over that time they have being hacked to death in the street by a mob. I am a very vociferous atheist. Are you saying I should not be afraid to express who I am in Bangladesh, Pakistan, Saudi Arabis or any other Muslim country?
For the sake of brevity I haven't quoted that post @NornIrishAddick - but I must say it was a very good one.
Your observations about those turning to extremism not being "good Muslims" is a very good one, and one that can be seen in Molenbeek. The stories about those who have taken the darker path from that particular area are often quite telling when you hear what they were like before they found their "calling".
I can't help but feel that the disaffected youth in Europe though are less vulnerable due to our policy abroad, but more so because there are areas that have failed to integrate fully. Unfortunately that is rarely the fault of the youth as they've merely been born in to these areas! They are unfortunately beginning with a severe disadvantage, and I feel that the moderate voices in these communities should be the ones encouraging cohesion and integration. I hasten to add that I'm under the impression that my Molenbeek example is a bit different, as White Belgians are very reluctant to provide the Muslim community with opportunities.
I agree with your outlook that any potential solution will be a long term one, but I'm sadly I'm not sure whether our politicians can see beyond the next election window. (Or at the moment, whether they can see beyond the next week to be entirely honest!)
It's certainly a fascinating subject though, and with regards to our own involvement (You mention the Arab Spring as a good recent one) you would hope we could draw lessons from it for the future, but also answers for the present. It's certainly a tough time though, and one that I'm anxious to see develop.
The word "Islamaphobia" to me is an Oxymoron. Phobia is an irrational fear, yet to me, there is nothing irrational about fearing the extreme factions of Islam
I am Islamaphobic in exactly the same way I am Naziphobic. They both disgust me and I will never refrain from expressing that disgust because one is a World religion followed by 1.6 billion misguided fools.
there is not enough facepalm on the entire internet for you
Your never ending quest to satisfy your narcissistic self image as the most PC man on the planet by trying to judge and control what people say on here is a joke most of the time but at time like this it is fucking annoying.
He has a point in this instance though. You're saying you are scared by every person that follows Islam? If not then you have worded your post very poorly.
Not really. I have been following events in Bangladesh over the last 12 months. If anyone publicly admits to being an atheist over that time they have being hacked to death in the street by a mob. I am a very vociferous atheist. Are you saying I should not be afraid to express who I am in Bangladesh, Pakistan, Saudi Arabis or any other Muslim country?
Not that I would ever come to your defence @Red_in_SE8... but until this morning I wasn't aware quite how dangerous the situation in Bangladesh has got.
The word "Islamaphobia" to me is an Oxymoron. Phobia is an irrational fear, yet to me, there is nothing irrational about fearing the extreme factions of Islam
I am Islamaphobic in exactly the same way I am Naziphobic. They both disgust me and I will never refrain from expressing that disgust because one is a World religion followed by 1.6 billion misguided fools.
there is not enough facepalm on the entire internet for you
Your never ending quest to satisfy your narcissistic self image as the most PC man on the planet by trying to judge and control what people say on here is a joke most of the time but at time like this it is fucking annoying.
He has a point in this instance though. You're saying you are scared by every person that follows Islam? If not then you have worded your post very poorly.
Not really. I have been following events in Bangladesh over the last 12 months. If anyone publicly admits to being an atheist over that time they have being hacked to death in the street by a mob. I am a very vociferous atheist. Are you saying I should not be afraid to express who I am in Bangladesh, Pakistan, Saudi Arabis or any other Muslim country?
But your post was not specifically stating barbaric regimes or Islamic extremists. It was all Muslims. Presumably that means if you met Mo Farah you'd be scared of him? I know that isn't the case and I'm exaggerating the point but it was just your choice of words.
And also, I don't think saying you are a vociferous atheist helps your cause. Anyone who is a staunch anything whether it be pro or against religion I do not have a lot of time for. I believe people should be allowed to believe in whatever they choose but that they also should not enforce their views on to other people.
The word "Islamaphobia" to me is an Oxymoron. Phobia is an irrational fear, yet to me, there is nothing irrational about fearing the extreme factions of Islam
I am Islamaphobic in exactly the same way I am Naziphobic. They both disgust me and I will never refrain from expressing that disgust because one is a World religion followed by 1.6 billion misguided fools.
there is not enough facepalm on the entire internet for you
Your never ending quest to satisfy your narcissistic self image as the most PC man on the planet by trying to judge and control what people say on here is a joke most of the time but at time like this it is fucking annoying.
He has a point in this instance though. You're saying you are scared by every person that follows Islam? If not then you have worded your post very poorly.
Not really. I have been following events in Bangladesh over the last 12 months. If anyone publicly admits to being an atheist over that time they have being hacked to death in the street by a mob. I am a very vociferous atheist. Are you saying I should not be afraid to express who I am in Bangladesh, Pakistan, Saudi Arabis or any other Muslim country?
But your post was not specifically stating barbaric regimes or Islamic extremists. It was all Muslims. Presumably that means if you met Mo Farah you'd be scared of him? I know that isn't the case and I'm exaggerating the point but it was just your choice of words.
And also, I don't think saying you are a vociferous atheist helps your cause. Anyone who is a staunch anything whether it be pro or against religion I do not have a lot of time for. I believe people should be allowed to believe in whatever they choose but that they also should not enforce their views on to other people.
I don't have a cause. Unless you think it is a 'cause' to engage in the debate about how the non Muslim free world and all the religious and non-religious people who live in it can defend itself against repeated Islamic terrorist attacks
Saying I should hide my 'atheism' (and that is what you are saying when you state 'saying you are a vociferous atheist' doesn't help my cause), is like saying to a Gay man it does not help his cause to live openly as a gay man. I have every right to live my life as a practicing atheist man as a gay man has to live his life as a practicing homosexual.
Correct me if I'm wrong but France is one the highest % of Muslim citizens in europe?? Anyone??
Thee highest when I last looked
So if that's the case how can anyone argue it's not a Muslim problem. When you consider France has the highest death toll in Europe the last few years.
how does one "practice" as an atheist? Surely just being alive is fine? I'm an atheist/agnostic and don't feel the need to tell anyone about my religious beliefs or lack thereof.
The word "Islamaphobia" to me is an Oxymoron. Phobia is an irrational fear, yet to me, there is nothing irrational about fearing the extreme factions of Islam
I am Islamaphobic in exactly the same way I am Naziphobic. They both disgust me and I will never refrain from expressing that disgust because one is a World religion followed by 1.6 billion misguided fools.
there is not enough facepalm on the entire internet for you
Your never ending quest to satisfy your narcissistic self image as the most PC man on the planet by trying to judge and control what people say on here is a joke most of the time but at time like this it is fucking annoying.
He has a point in this instance though. You're saying you are scared by every person that follows Islam? If not then you have worded your post very poorly.
Not really. I have been following events in Bangladesh over the last 12 months. If anyone publicly admits to being an atheist over that time they have being hacked to death in the street by a mob. I am a very vociferous atheist. Are you saying I should not be afraid to express who I am in Bangladesh, Pakistan, Saudi Arabis or any other Muslim country?
No but you generalised the whole of the Muslim population as 1.6b misguided fools, which isn't right or fair any way you want to spin it.
I don't have a particularly favourable view of Islam as a religion, but that doesn't mean I group all 1.6b in one category and judge them as fools, which you've no right to do
The word "Islamaphobia" to me is an Oxymoron. Phobia is an irrational fear, yet to me, there is nothing irrational about fearing the extreme factions of Islam
I am Islamaphobic in exactly the same way I am Naziphobic. They both disgust me and I will never refrain from expressing that disgust because one is a World religion followed by 1.6 billion misguided fools.
there is not enough facepalm on the entire internet for you
Your never ending quest to satisfy your narcissistic self image as the most PC man on the planet by trying to judge and control what people say on here is a joke most of the time but at time like this it is fucking annoying.
He has a point in this instance though. You're saying you are scared by every person that follows Islam? If not then you have worded your post very poorly.
Not really. I have been following events in Bangladesh over the last 12 months. If anyone publicly admits to being an atheist over that time they have being hacked to death in the street by a mob. I am a very vociferous atheist. Are you saying I should not be afraid to express who I am in Bangladesh, Pakistan, Saudi Arabis or any other Muslim country?
But your post was not specifically stating barbaric regimes or Islamic extremists. It was all Muslims. Presumably that means if you met Mo Farah you'd be scared of him? I know that isn't the case and I'm exaggerating the point but it was just your choice of words.
And also, I don't think saying you are a vociferous atheist helps your cause. Anyone who is a staunch anything whether it be pro or against religion I do not have a lot of time for. I believe people should be allowed to believe in whatever they choose but that they also should not enforce their views on to other people.
I don't have a cause. Unless you think it is a 'cause' to engage in the debate about how the non Muslim free world and all the religious and non-religious people who live in it can defend itself against repeated Islamic terrorist attacks
Saying I should hide my 'atheism' (and that is what you are saying when you state 'saying you are a vociferous atheist' doesn't help my cause), is like saying to a Gay man it does not help his cause to live openly as a gay man. I have every right to live my life as a practicing atheist man as a gay man has to live his life as a practicing homosexual.
By all means live your life as a 'practicing atheist' (sounds a little contradictory but anyway...) but if by vociferous you mean going around telling everyone of the superiority of your religious stance, you can shove it, the same way as any religious type going around trying to convert everyone in earshot can shove it. I have no problem with homosexual people living the life they want to live, just so long as they are equally content to let me live mine the way I want, and the same applies to religion.
The word "Islamaphobia" to me is an Oxymoron. Phobia is an irrational fear, yet to me, there is nothing irrational about fearing the extreme factions of Islam
I am Islamaphobic in exactly the same way I am Naziphobic. They both disgust me and I will never refrain from expressing that disgust because one is a World religion followed by 1.6 billion misguided fools.
there is not enough facepalm on the entire internet for you
Your never ending quest to satisfy your narcissistic self image as the most PC man on the planet by trying to judge and control what people say on here is a joke most of the time but at time like this it is fucking annoying.
He has a point in this instance though. You're saying you are scared by every person that follows Islam? If not then you have worded your post very poorly.
Not really. I have been following events in Bangladesh over the last 12 months. If anyone publicly admits to being an atheist over that time they have being hacked to death in the street by a mob. I am a very vociferous atheist. Are you saying I should not be afraid to express who I am in Bangladesh, Pakistan, Saudi Arabis or any other Muslim country?
But your post was not specifically stating barbaric regimes or Islamic extremists. It was all Muslims. Presumably that means if you met Mo Farah you'd be scared of him? I know that isn't the case and I'm exaggerating the point but it was just your choice of words.
And also, I don't think saying you are a vociferous atheist helps your cause. Anyone who is a staunch anything whether it be pro or against religion I do not have a lot of time for. I believe people should be allowed to believe in whatever they choose but that they also should not enforce their views on to other people.
I don't have a cause. Unless you think it is a 'cause' to engage in the debate about how the non Muslim free world and all the religious and non-religious people who live in it can defend itself against repeated Islamic terrorist attacks
Saying I should hide my 'atheism' (and that is what you are saying when you state 'saying you are a vociferous atheist' doesn't help my cause), is like saying to a Gay man it does not help his cause to live openly as a gay man. I have every right to live my life as a practicing atheist man as a gay man has to live his life as a practicing homosexual.
By all means live your life as a 'practicing atheist' (sounds a little contradictory but anyway...) but if by vociferous you mean going around telling everyone of the superiority of your religious stance, you can shove it, the same way as any religious type going around trying to convert everyone in earshot can shove it. I have no problem with homosexual people living the life they want to live, just so long as they are equally content to let me live mine the way I want, and the same applies to religion.
The only time I am vociferous about my atheism is times like this when religious people start affecting the way I choose to live my life.
Short of inventing a time machine and undoing the mistakes of the past, I don't think there is much anyone nation can do. Theses types will always be here.
That's the worse thing.
The types will always be around.
Such a sad sad pointless waste of life. Why do people have so much mis-guided hate within them? You get psychopaths ... That's just unfortunate human biology that sometimes happens. This is obviously beyond that.
I utterly detest religion. Sorry but I do. In particular times like this. Yes.
Life is precious and religion can, in a lot of cases, curve an angle to suggest that it is not so precious, even to the person believing in the religion itself. They are all living in a dream world. I'm talking religion as a whole. It kills people. The same morons would still find another excuse to kill even if religion didn't exist? Yes. It's also education. Teaching young people the harsh reality of what is real and what is not real from a young age. Sad to all people that don't or never did have that privelidge.
How do you stop acts of terrorism? You can try and understand it for one thing. Get as much Intel as possible.
Well that's a question.
How was Hitler stopped?
In a very unfortunate way that was unkind to the people that had to sacrifice their lives.
War.
I fear for the world at the moment.
Good post Dave. Totally with you on the religion thing. Whilst I don't begrudge any 'believer' the right to allow religion to take them to a place (within the law) where they are 'content', I just don't get how someone can be so influenced by something that is, quite frankly, fictional. Not intending to upset any folk here, I just don't have the depth of understanding to get how it can totally rule someone's life.
When I was in the RAF I spent quite a bit of time in the middle-east in a very low level 'intelligence gathering' role. To enable me to carry out the task to the best of my ability, and in order to play the 'hearts and minds' game, I decided to try and understand the 'power and pull' of the Muslim faith a bit more. One guy who I used to meet and deal with was the owner of a gold shop in a local market (souk). He was, of course, also a devout Muslim who prayed 5 times a day and knew the Quran inside out. After a few months and after winning his confidence, I decided to ask him about his religion and why was he so devout? His simple, but powerful, answer was (quote): "if I don't do what the holy Quran says I should do, I am afraid of what will happen to me when I die"! And this was a decent fella who wasn't remotely radicalised in the slightest. However, in my opinion, he was totally brainwashed.
So, when you then look at the 'extremist' who has been radicalised to such an extent that he/she is prepared to die for the (perceived) cause, it makes you realise just what you're up against.
Sad, sad times and a lot of it pretty much of the west's making after again intevening in a region that we just don't grasp or understand.
The word "Islamaphobia" to me is an Oxymoron. Phobia is an irrational fear, yet to me, there is nothing irrational about fearing the extreme factions of Islam
I am Islamaphobic in exactly the same way I am Naziphobic. They both disgust me and I will never refrain from expressing that disgust because one is a World religion followed by 1.6 billion misguided fools.
there is not enough facepalm on the entire internet for you
Your never ending quest to satisfy your narcissistic self image as the most PC man on the planet by trying to judge and control what people say on here is a joke most of the time but at time like this it is fucking annoying.
He has a point in this instance though. You're saying you are scared by every person that follows Islam? If not then you have worded your post very poorly.
Not really. I have been following events in Bangladesh over the last 12 months. If anyone publicly admits to being an atheist over that time they have being hacked to death in the street by a mob. I am a very vociferous atheist. Are you saying I should not be afraid to express who I am in Bangladesh, Pakistan, Saudi Arabis or any other Muslim country?
But your post was not specifically stating barbaric regimes or Islamic extremists. It was all Muslims. Presumably that means if you met Mo Farah you'd be scared of him? I know that isn't the case and I'm exaggerating the point but it was just your choice of words.
And also, I don't think saying you are a vociferous atheist helps your cause. Anyone who is a staunch anything whether it be pro or against religion I do not have a lot of time for. I believe people should be allowed to believe in whatever they choose but that they also should not enforce their views on to other people.
I don't have a cause. Unless you think it is a 'cause' to engage in the debate about how the non Muslim free world and all the religious and non-religious people who live in it can defend itself against repeated Islamic terrorist attacks
Saying I should hide my 'atheism' (and that is what you are saying when you state 'saying you are a vociferous atheist' doesn't help my cause), is like saying to a Gay man it does not help his cause to live openly as a gay man. I have every right to live my life as a practicing atheist man as a gay man has to live his life as a practicing homosexual.
At what point in my post did I ever insinuate that?
how does one "practice" as an atheist? Surely just being alive is fine? I'm an atheist/agnostic and don't feel the need to tell anyone about my religious beliefs or lack thereof.
If I could live my life without being impacted by religious people who think they can dictate the way I choose to live then I would not need to regularly assert my atheist beliefs. Unfortunately, in today's world that is increasingly not the case.
how does one "practice" as an atheist? Surely just being alive is fine? I'm an atheist/agnostic and don't feel the need to tell anyone about my religious beliefs or lack thereof.
If I could live my life without being impacted by religious people who think they can dictate the way I choose to live then I would not need to regularly assert my atheist beliefs. Unfortunately, in today's world that is increasingly not the case.
could you name me twice today the way you've chosen to live your life has been severely impacted by religion?
how does one "practice" as an atheist? Surely just being alive is fine? I'm an atheist/agnostic and don't feel the need to tell anyone about my religious beliefs or lack thereof.
By slaggin off every religion under the sun as long as it ain't Islam or Buddhism
how does one "practice" as an atheist? Surely just being alive is fine? I'm an atheist/agnostic and don't feel the need to tell anyone about my religious beliefs or lack thereof.
If I could live my life without being impacted by religious people who think they can dictate the way I choose to live then I would not need to regularly assert my atheist beliefs. Unfortunately, in today's world that is increasingly not the case.
could you name me twice today the way you've chosen to live your life has been severely impacted by religion?
Are you kidding? You seriously think I am not impacted by what happened yesterday? It is highly probable that this guy was simply following the instruction by Islamic extremists recently to all Muslims living in infidel lands to use whatever weapons they can lay their hands on to kill as many infidels as possible. You don't think there are a number of dis-engaged, slightly deranged young Muslim men living in London who might flip at any moment and carry out similar attacks here?
If the Tory party had elected Andrea Loathsome as its leader it would not have been beyond the realms of possibility that in 10 years time female members of my family would have been denied easy access to abortion as is the case in many states in the US.
I have been following a story in Brooklyn over the last few months. In one of the large and strict Jewish communities there one sect has persuaded the local community pool to close its doors to the public two mornings a week in order to allow women from these Jewish communities to swim. This is a swimming pool funded by the tax payer. Secular groups and members of the public are quite rightly outraged by this and fighting against it.
So whilst at the moment I live my life largely free from any impact from any religion, apart from the horror and distress caused by repeated Islamic terrorist attacks around the world, as a practicing atheist I am fully attuned to any potential attack on that freedom whether it be from the threat of Sharia law or the reintroduction of insidious laws based on any other religion.
One thing that hasn't happened since 2005, one that won't happen ever and one that's happening in Brooklyn.
Perhaps you could save the tax payers a lot of money and make your services available to the new prime minister and the Cobra group and assure them the terrorist threat in the UK since 2005 is actually non existent rather than very high for the last 10 years.
One thing that hasn't happened since 2005, one that won't happen ever and one that's happening in Brooklyn.
Perhaps you could save the tax payers a lot of money and make your services available to the new prime minister and the Cobra group and assure them the terrorist threat in the UK since 2005 is actually non existent rather than very high for the last 10 years.
I think the point was, since 2005 the Security Services have done a cracking job of preventing any of the threats from being realised. So it's difficult to say that you've been "severely impacted" today by "dis-engaged, slightly deranged young Muslim men living in London".
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There are some Middle Eastern countries that are mostly or even partly democratic, or ruled by monarchs/dictators who are not utterly odious, but not many (Lebanon, Tunisia, Morocco, I would almost say Iran, because it has a democracy of sorts, but the Mullahs have too much power). And I am not suggesting for one instant that they are not in some way corrupt.
However, in many ways, we are reaping what we have sown. In our support, for reasons of geopolitics and need for oil, of Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, and their ilk, we have encouraged the rise of fundamentalist Wahhabist Sunni Islam. The House of Saud depends entirely on Wahhabism, and so strengthens it within Saudia Arabia and exports it worldwide - look at mosques and schools built and preachers trained (across the world) with Saudi money, and ask yourself how likely are they to produce liberally minded individuals. Was it surprising that, when Merkel and Germany offered to welcome Syrian refugees, the only Saudi offer was to build mosques? Look at the disasters that have befallen Afghanistan/Pakistan, where the Saudi influence met its perfect match in the equally austere Deobandi tradition.
100 years ago, the Wahhabists were the fringe of Sunni Islam, easily outmatched by others (such as Sufis) that we would dearly wish to have in power across the Middle East today. But now it is the fundamentalist, literal interpretation of Wahhabism that dominates the online and satellite television fora across the Arabic/Islamist world.
The disaffected youth, whether in the Middle East or in Europe, who fall under its spell, and become radicalised are often not good Muslims, in that they may have dabbled in drugs, alcohol and petty crime. Look even at the wealthy young men involved in the attacks on 9/11, were they conspicuously abiding by the teachings of their religion? Most reports indicate that they then find, in a twisted version of Islam, a certainty and a purpose that the rest of their lives cannot provide - the rise of fascism in the 1920s and 1930s would suggest that the allure of a simplistic, if hate filled, world view is not limited only to young Muslim men.
Anyway, we have supported utterly appalling regimes across the Middle East for generations, for reasons that do little to support our notions of having some sort of superior moral compass. Most tragically, we allowed the Arab Spring, when the youth of the Arab world rose up against such regimes, to be whittled away, either by looking in the other direction, or by actively supporting repression (as in Bahrain and Egypt). Where we (as in the West) did intervene against a regime, we did just enough to encourage a descent into chaos, but nowhere near enough to help bring about any kind of reasonable solution.
If we really want to address the rise of violent and nihilistic fundamentalist Islam, we must be pepared for a long haul, of supporting moderate voices, and moving away from our traditional backing for the corrupt, venal elites. We should look to the countries that have the greatest chance of becoming what we would like them to be (assuming we mean liberal democracies) and support them. Let us help Tunisia, Lebanon, et al, be successful economically and socially and that will provide our most potent weapon in the Middle East. In the banlieues of France and across Europe, we need to find ways of giving young people hope and increase their feeling of belonging, and, yes, we need to educate, but we also need to find ways to support moderate voices in Muslim communities as well.
None of this is cheap, it's certainly more expensive than dropping bombs, and could well take many years. Dealing with the root causes requires a long term plan and a willingness to follow Robin Cook's idea of an ethical foreign policy. I won't hold my breath.
Sorry, it's a bit of a rant and, in all honesty, I'm not really sure that there is an easy solution - because we can destroy ISIS, but something else will rise up in its place (like Al Shabaab grew out of the Islamic Courts in Somalia).
This year he said something very interesting, that after the 30 years war in Germany and a generation of conflict between two sects of christianity that had been at each others throats for years (protestant and catholicism) where a huge percentage of german speaking men died, the renaissance happened in europe. This was a result of the war and destruction that had happened and, what was A C Grayling's point, that although war should be avoided at all costs, it tends to create huge advances in technology and of thinking. In 1600 people went outside at night, gazed up at the stars and saw beacons the almighty had lit, in 1700, people went outside at night, gazed up at the stars and saw balls of gas like our sun burning trillions upon trillions of miles away.
He went on to say that what's going on in the middle east and the fighting between sunni and shia and the warlords in the area has similarities to that of the thirty years war, and went on to say that if humanity can survive the next hundred or so years without blowing ourselves up with nuclear weapons, we may well see cultural and technological leaps in the middle east as a result of all the war and bloodshed finally coming to an end.
An interesting perspective and although doesn't solve anything short or medium term, gives a spark of hope for the future.
Your observations about those turning to extremism not being "good Muslims" is a very good one, and one that can be seen in Molenbeek. The stories about those who have taken the darker path from that particular area are often quite telling when you hear what they were like before they found their "calling".
I can't help but feel that the disaffected youth in Europe though are less vulnerable due to our policy abroad, but more so because there are areas that have failed to integrate fully. Unfortunately that is rarely the fault of the youth as they've merely been born in to these areas! They are unfortunately beginning with a severe disadvantage, and I feel that the moderate voices in these communities should be the ones encouraging cohesion and integration. I hasten to add that I'm under the impression that my Molenbeek example is a bit different, as White Belgians are very reluctant to provide the Muslim community with opportunities.
I agree with your outlook that any potential solution will be a long term one, but I'm sadly I'm not sure whether our politicians can see beyond the next election window. (Or at the moment, whether they can see beyond the next week to be entirely honest!)
It's certainly a fascinating subject though, and with regards to our own involvement (You mention the Arab Spring as a good recent one) you would hope we could draw lessons from it for the future, but also answers for the present. It's certainly a tough time though, and one that I'm anxious to see develop.
Amaq Agency is the de facto ISIS news agency, so this is straight from the horses mouth as it were.
I will say that being scared of every Muslim, 2.7million in the UK alone, would be a very sad way to live though.
And also, I don't think saying you are a vociferous atheist helps your cause. Anyone who is a staunch anything whether it be pro or against religion I do not have a lot of time for. I believe people should be allowed to believe in whatever they choose but that they also should not enforce their views on to other people.
Saying I should hide my 'atheism' (and that is what you are saying when you state 'saying you are a vociferous atheist' doesn't help my cause), is like saying to a Gay man it does not help his cause to live openly as a gay man. I have every right to live my life as a practicing atheist man as a gay man has to live his life as a practicing homosexual.
I don't have a particularly favourable view of Islam as a religion, but that doesn't mean I group all 1.6b in one category and judge them as fools, which you've no right to do
Why don't we all join them.
Then change them from within?
#Goodasanyotheridea
When I was in the RAF I spent quite a bit of time in the middle-east in a very low level 'intelligence gathering' role. To enable me to carry out the task to the best of my ability, and in order to play the 'hearts and minds' game, I decided to try and understand the 'power and pull' of the Muslim faith a bit more. One guy who I used to meet and deal with was the owner of a gold shop in a local market (souk). He was, of course, also a devout Muslim who prayed 5 times a day and knew the Quran inside out. After a few months and after winning his confidence, I decided to ask him about his religion and why was he so devout? His simple, but powerful, answer was (quote): "if I don't do what the holy Quran says I should do, I am afraid of what will happen to me when I die"! And this was a decent fella who wasn't remotely radicalised in the slightest. However, in my opinion, he was totally brainwashed.
So, when you then look at the 'extremist' who has been radicalised to such an extent that he/she is prepared to die for the (perceived) cause, it makes you realise just what you're up against.
Sad, sad times and a lot of it pretty much of the west's making after again intevening in a region that we just don't grasp or understand.
If the Tory party had elected Andrea Loathsome as its leader it would not have been beyond the realms of possibility that in 10 years time female members of my family would have been denied easy access to abortion as is the case in many states in the US.
I have been following a story in Brooklyn over the last few months. In one of the large and strict Jewish communities there one sect has persuaded the local community pool to close its doors to the public two mornings a week in order to allow women from these Jewish communities to swim. This is a swimming pool funded by the tax payer. Secular groups and members of the public are quite rightly outraged by this and fighting against it.
So whilst at the moment I live my life largely free from any impact from any religion, apart from the horror and distress caused by repeated Islamic terrorist attacks around the world, as a practicing atheist I am fully attuned to any potential attack on that freedom whether it be from the threat of Sharia law or the reintroduction of insidious laws based on any other religion.