So if I read the article I'll change my opinion, is that what you're saying?
@SoundAsa£. Despite the big atrocities committed indiscriminately against European citizens over the passed five years or so, I think if you read the article, there was actually hundreds of identified terrorist attacks in the same period, committed by non Muslims throughout Europe.
From people like Anders Breivik killing 77 people in Norway back in 2011, through to the murder of Jo Cox by Thomas Maire this year in Yorkshire.
And despite the general success of the Good Friday Agreement, there have been hundreds of terrorist attacks in the Province from both sides. I'm sure @NornIrishAddick could roll off a list of them.
Since the Soho/Brick Lane bombings (by a far right terrorist) there's been a steady stream of far right nutcases getting sent down for possession of explosives in the UK. I suspect if any of them had been Muslim it would have been splashed all over the media, but because they were Brits and white, they got a few paragraphs on the inside pages. As well as Breivik there have been terrorist attacks by the far-right in Germany where they killed some migrants and a policewoman and the US where far-right terrorists have shot (and killed) people at a black church, a Jewish community centre, a Sikh temple and a police barracks, among others. In a lot of cases, these are described as "loners with mental health issues" by the media, which is a phrase rarely used if it's some Jihadi scumbag doing the murdering.
Turkey has seen loads of terrorism these last couple of years, most of it is related to the Kurdish situation rather than religion.
It's just not true that terrorism is mainly done by Muslims.
Arguably the most serious terrorists these days (and throughout history) are so-called legitimate governments. Russia in Ukraine, Assad in Syria, Israel, Burma, Turkey, the list is endless.
Not all Muslims are terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims......well, broadly speaking as things are in the world right now that is.
Nonsense.
Well Henry.....I did say 'broadly speaking' as things are today.....not precisely acurate I know, but can you please tell me of any other group/organisation etc, that come even remotely close to them by number....then I might have some other understanding as to why you call it nonsense?
Dont really cause trouble anymore but the IRA were surely just as bad?
My Dad used to work at the Ministry of Defence and before leaving work everyday had to check under his car for anything suspicious
Similarly, where I work, when we had IRA prisoners (before my time there) staff would check under their cars and vary their routes home. We now have convicted Islamic terrorists yet we've never been given advice to take similar precautions. I'm not saying there isn't a possible threat but it might be worth considering that the fear of Islamic terrorism has been made greater (in terms of mainstream media perception) than the actual reality. At least on our little island.
You're right. There isn't a possible threat, there's a clearly defined and articulated 'Severe' threat from International Terrorism. Severe is defined as 'an attack is highly likely'. International terrorist groups are defined loosely as ISIS/ISIL and Al-Qaida affiliated groups. I think that the Security Service and Secret Intelligence Service (MI5 and MI6) and Home Office Police Counter Terrorist groups and Special Branch are doing/have done a much bigger job than we realise by keeping that 'Severe' threat at bay. But no, I would suggest that, sadly, the mainstream media perception is spot on.
Not all Muslims are terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims......well, broadly speaking as things are in the world right now that is.
Nonsense.
Well Henry.....I did say 'broadly speaking' as things are today.....not precisely acurate I know, but can you please tell me of any other group/organisation etc, that come even remotely close to them by number....then I might have some other understanding as to why you call it nonsense?
Dont really cause trouble anymore but the IRA were surely just as bad?
My Dad used to work at the Ministry of Defence and before leaving work everyday had to check under his car for anything suspicious
Similarly, where I work, when we had IRA prisoners (before my time there) staff would check under their cars and vary their routes home. We now have convicted Islamic terrorists yet we've never been given advice to take similar precautions. I'm not saying there isn't a possible threat but it might be worth considering that the fear of Islamic terrorism has been made greater (in terms of mainstream media perception) than the actual reality. At least on our little island.
You're right. There isn't a possible threat, there's a clearly defined and articulated 'Severe' threat from International Terrorism. Severe is defined as 'an attack is highly likely'. International terrorist groups are defined loosely as ISIS/ISIL and Al-Qaida affiliated groups. I think that the Security Service and Secret Intelligence Service (MI5 and MI6) and Home Office Police Counter Terrorist groups and Special Branch are doing/have done a much bigger job than we realise by keeping that 'Severe' threat at bay. But no, I would suggest that, sadly, the mainstream media perception is spot on.
Agreed.
I don't think we'll ever really understand just how close these threats come to materialising, and just how devastating they would be. I genuinely believe that our Security Services deserve the utmost of respect, and it's just a shame that due to the nature of their work we only ever really hear them mentioned in the press when something slips through the net. The sign of a good intelligence service is arguably the level of their anonymity.
To look at it another way, and to quote the IRA: "Today we were unlucky, but remember we only have to be lucky once. You will have to be lucky always.". The good guys have to be working 24/7 when all it takes to hurt us is one lucky attempt that gets overlooked.
To propose a counterpoint to AddickUpNorth's observation about Prison Staff being told to look under their car and vary their routes whilst there was a threat from the IRA, I would suggest this is more to do with the IRA's tactics and penchants for car bombs, than the comparative severity of the threat level. Not to mention the IRA had issued bomb threats to Prisons on the mainland directly, right in to the 90s AFAIK. (Whilst the IRA were understood to prioritise Prison Officers to the point whereby they were allowed to carry firearms off duty in NI; and still are.)
The IRA had the expertise and prior experience of striking out via targeted attacks in that manner; arguably the closest we've seen from our current foes is the murder of Lee Rigby - and that as an event that was characterised by a desire to be seen on TV, a desire to gain some form of stardom from the act. In comparison, the IRA seemed to take greater strength in striking with a degree of anonymity, and claiming their acts for a "cause" than mere individual recognition.
Why not just read the article? The answers are in there.
Ermmmm Gary, those are the answers for British based Muslims.....I'm talking about the entire planet mate.
The article, if you bothered to read it, it about more than the UK.
The article dated 14 January 2015
Yeah it's all changed now!!!
Two years in social terms is huge.
Edit:
To elaborate, it's especially huge if you're looking at the causes of radicalisation - which are going to centre largely around:
- Inspiration;
- Marginalisation.
Inspiration plays a large part in the polished media that the likes of ISIS produce; slick editing combined with high definition video. Hell, even Al Qaeda have named their own magazine "Inspire". Terrorist organisations aren't void of the HR head aches that your average business has, and like the average business, they need to recruit. Like most companies they turn to "inspiring" literature and videos.. just like you get recruiting adverts that try and inspire teenagers to do apprenticeships, or get people to change careers to be a chef/soldier/nurse.
Since 14 January 2015 there has been a lot more pro-IS propaganda online, there's been horrific large scale terror attacks in Western Europe, and they've continued publishing their magazines. It's quite easy to see how they may have ramped up the "Inspiration" part over the last 2 years.
As for Marginalisation, I think this goes without saying. Every time there's a terrorist attack perpetuated by a Muslim, there's a backlash - relations get that little bit worse: late 2015 must've been difficult for this.
Then politically the landscape has changed somewhat in 2016, and things seem more nationalistic (Trump. Brexit. Le Pen..). For someone who considers themselves both Muslim and equally [insert nationality here], I'm going to guess that nationalistic sentiments make it harder and harder for them to balance their sense of identity.
This thread can seem very scary, but it's worth noting the odds of one of us dying tomorrow due to a terrorist attack are about 10,000,000 to 1. Maybe that's because the authorities are doing a brilliant job of holding back the animals. Or maybe there aren't that many animals in the first place. Either way, terrorism only works if people live in terror.
To put it in context, there's an 8,000 to 1 chance of one us dying in a car crash tomorrow. But we don't live in abject fear of that and don't have a thread going about the kind of people who drive badly enough to threaten lives. And there's way, way, way more of those people than Islamic extremists.
The point above by AddickUpNorth is an interesting one - the IRA were a very organised group capable of making an attack personal. The terrorists we've come across so far in an Islamic extremist capacity are nothing like that. The organisation just isn't there.
Going back to the thread's original purpose - there are some immigrants (I've no idea what proportion) of certain religions who have backward views. Because they come from countries where education is either lacking, or ruled by religion. I'm absolutely not an expert on this, but it does seem to me that we are better off trying to enlighten and influence them than picking a fight with them. Same goes for the racists and homophobes of all religions.
The girl on the program was interesting. Her attitude REALLY blew my mind. It was her opinion that British values were nothing but colonialism, exploitation and racism. Although I disagree, she is entitled to her opinion and I fully respect that.
She didn't mention how this fitted in with her, or her immediate families history. Either her or a direct descendant woke up one day in an Islamic country or other far away land and said to themselves "I hate this place, I'm moving, not to another city, not another part of the country, not to the oil rich Islamic countries of the middle east, not another Islamic, Arabic or Asian country, nor even an African country. I'm going to uproot myself and any dependants, drag them half way across the world to a country of colonialism, exploitation and racism. What could possibly go wrong?"
If was in her situation Id want some answers from my family. The fact that she didn't have/didn't care what they were totally blew my mind! Its amazing just how some people tick.
More likely that her parents or grandparents were recruited in Pakistan to come and work in England in what were them boom towns in the north west, Midlands or parts of London that were short if labour.
They most likely had a different view of Britain and empire to their daughter/granddaughter and saw the move as an opportunity for a better life which for all its faults it most likely is.
Not to say that her family didn't suffer racism as we know many did but that isn't the full story either.
Point is that most Asian immigrants were invited over to fill vacancies.
This thread can seem very scary, but it's worth noting the odds of one of us dying tomorrow due to a terrorist attack are about 10,000,000 to 1. Maybe that's because the authorities are doing a brilliant job of holding back the animals. Or maybe there aren't that many animals in the first place. Either way, terrorism only works if people live in terror.
To put it in context, there's an 8,000 to 1 chance of one us dying in a car crash tomorrow. But we don't live in abject fear of that and don't have a thread going about the kind of people who drive badly enough to threaten lives. And there's way, way, way more of those people than Islamic extremists.
The point above by AddickUpNorth is an interesting one - the IRA were a very organised group capable of making an attack personal. The terrorists we've come across so far in an Islamic extremist capacity are nothing like that. The organisation just isn't there.
Going back to the thread's original purpose - there are some immigrants (I've no idea what proportion) of certain religions who have backward views. Because they come from countries where education is either lacking, or ruled by religion. I'm absolutely not an expert on this, but it does seem to me that we are better off trying to enlighten and influence them than picking a fight with them. Same goes for the racists and homophobes of all religions.
Sorry Jimmy, I've some sympathy for your argument but if I've read it correctly I don't think your car crash figures pile up correctly. "An 8,000 to 1 chance of one us dying in a car crash tomorrow", seemed very high to me, so I did a few calculations. If the population of the UK is 65m and your figures are correct then we can expect that over 8,000 people will die in car crashes tomorrow. That can't possibly be true. Apart from the fact that no-one would go near a car if those were the odds, such a fatality rate would actually cut life expectancy in the UK down to something like 25.
I looked up the real stats and found that 1,732* people per year die as a result of car crashes. That's less than five people per day. Taken across a population of 65m that makes the chances of anyone of us dying in a car crash tomorrow about 1 in 14,000,000. A figure that is less likely than the death by terrorism chances that you've provided (though, I haven't checked these).
The odds of being killed by a terrorist in the Uk according to a stat I read was 1 in 16 million annually. I can't member the source, but it seems fairly plausible
"So here are some statistics for those interested. Let’s start with Europe. Want to guess what percent of the terrorist attacks there were committed by Muslims over the past five years? Wrong. That is, unless you said less than 2 percent.
"
Is that a real two percent or a Meire two percent?
While it depends how you define a "terrorist attack", I suppose, the perception is driven by the media giving wall-to-wall coverage to the atrocities, like those in France, with many unfortunate victims. Equivalent to what the IRA used to call "spectaculars".
When attacks are designed by fanatics to maximise publicity often including the suicide of the attacker, they are likely to have that very effect and embed themselves in the public's conscious. (What other good reason would there be to waste a perfectly good reusable resource like a religious nutter when that resource could be used time and time again?)
If on any day, there is a 1 in 8000 chance of me dying in a car accident, and I am say 42 years or around 15,300 days old, I've been bloody lucky haven't I?
I should have died once, nearly twice.
Goodness my gran who died in her 80s (not from a car crash) should have died on average at least 4 times before then.
Anthony Small used to live near me, drug dealer, he was a decent boxer and won a British title utter skidmark of a man then and seems to have continued in the same vein
As for the thread title, I thought without trying to be ironic or funny that it was about Muslims supporting or liking charlton
Comments
Turkey has seen loads of terrorism these last couple of years, most of it is related to the Kurdish situation rather than religion.
It's just not true that terrorism is mainly done by Muslims.
And I see you're right in the thick of it upon my arrival
Grass alert
I don't think we'll ever really understand just how close these threats come to materialising, and just how devastating they would be. I genuinely believe that our Security Services deserve the utmost of respect, and it's just a shame that due to the nature of their work we only ever really hear them mentioned in the press when something slips through the net. The sign of a good intelligence service is arguably the level of their anonymity.
To look at it another way, and to quote the IRA: "Today we were unlucky, but remember we only have to be lucky once. You will have to be lucky always.". The good guys have to be working 24/7 when all it takes to hurt us is one lucky attempt that gets overlooked.
To propose a counterpoint to AddickUpNorth's observation about Prison Staff being told to look under their car and vary their routes whilst there was a threat from the IRA, I would suggest this is more to do with the IRA's tactics and penchants for car bombs, than the comparative severity of the threat level. Not to mention the IRA had issued bomb threats to Prisons on the mainland directly, right in to the 90s AFAIK. (Whilst the IRA were understood to prioritise Prison Officers to the point whereby they were allowed to carry firearms off duty in NI; and still are.)
The IRA had the expertise and prior experience of striking out via targeted attacks in that manner; arguably the closest we've seen from our current foes is the murder of Lee Rigby - and that as an event that was characterised by a desire to be seen on TV, a desire to gain some form of stardom from the act. In comparison, the IRA seemed to take greater strength in striking with a degree of anonymity, and claiming their acts for a "cause" than mere individual recognition.
Edit:
To elaborate, it's especially huge if you're looking at the causes of radicalisation - which are going to centre largely around:
- Inspiration;
- Marginalisation.
Inspiration plays a large part in the polished media that the likes of ISIS produce; slick editing combined with high definition video. Hell, even Al Qaeda have named their own magazine "Inspire". Terrorist organisations aren't void of the HR head aches that your average business has, and like the average business, they need to recruit. Like most companies they turn to "inspiring" literature and videos.. just like you get recruiting adverts that try and inspire teenagers to do apprenticeships, or get people to change careers to be a chef/soldier/nurse.
Since 14 January 2015 there has been a lot more pro-IS propaganda online, there's been horrific large scale terror attacks in Western Europe, and they've continued publishing their magazines. It's quite easy to see how they may have ramped up the "Inspiration" part over the last 2 years.
As for Marginalisation, I think this goes without saying. Every time there's a terrorist attack perpetuated by a Muslim, there's a backlash - relations get that little bit worse: late 2015 must've been difficult for this.
Then politically the landscape has changed somewhat in 2016, and things seem more nationalistic (Trump. Brexit. Le Pen..). For someone who considers themselves both Muslim and equally [insert nationality here], I'm going to guess that nationalistic sentiments make it harder and harder for them to balance their sense of identity.
To put it in context, there's an 8,000 to 1 chance of one us dying in a car crash tomorrow. But we don't live in abject fear of that and don't have a thread going about the kind of people who drive badly enough to threaten lives. And there's way, way, way more of those people than Islamic extremists.
The point above by AddickUpNorth is an interesting one - the IRA were a very organised group capable of making an attack personal. The terrorists we've come across so far in an Islamic extremist capacity are nothing like that. The organisation just isn't there.
Going back to the thread's original purpose - there are some immigrants (I've no idea what proportion) of certain religions who have backward views. Because they come from countries where education is either lacking, or ruled by religion. I'm absolutely not an expert on this, but it does seem to me that we are better off trying to enlighten and influence them than picking a fight with them. Same goes for the racists and homophobes of all religions.
. fixed it for you #2
They most likely had a different view of Britain and empire to their daughter/granddaughter and saw the move as an opportunity for a better life which for all its faults it most likely is.
Not to say that her family didn't suffer racism as we know many did but that isn't the full story either.
Point is that most Asian immigrants were invited over to fill vacancies.
I looked up the real stats and found that 1,732* people per year die as a result of car crashes. That's less than five people per day. Taken across a population of 65m that makes the chances of anyone of us dying in a car crash tomorrow about 1 in 14,000,000. A figure that is less likely than the death by terrorism chances that you've provided (though, I haven't checked these).
*2015 figures.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/533293/rrcgb-main-results-2015.pdf
While it depends how you define a "terrorist attack", I suppose, the perception is driven by the media giving wall-to-wall coverage to the atrocities, like those in France, with many unfortunate victims. Equivalent to what the IRA used to call "spectaculars".
When attacks are designed by fanatics to maximise publicity often including the suicide of the attacker, they are likely to have that very effect and embed themselves in the public's conscious. (What other good reason would there be to waste a perfectly good reusable resource like a religious nutter when that resource could be used time and time again?)
It seems to be about terrorism.
Crazy world. Crazy people.
But while looking I did also find this mildly interesting article.
If on any day, there is a 1 in 8000 chance of me dying in a car accident, and I am say 42 years or around 15,300 days old, I've been bloody lucky haven't I?
I should have died once, nearly twice.
Goodness my gran who died in her 80s (not from a car crash) should have died on average at least 4 times before then.
As for the thread title, I thought without trying to be ironic or funny that it was about Muslims supporting or liking charlton