Hi there,
Interested in people's advise on this one.
A couple of weeks ago due to unforeseen circumstance I was running late for my train to work (Maidstone to Snodland 10mins - £3.60) and had to jump on the train without buying a ticket, knowing someone would be round.
A member of staff came round and I asked if I could buy a return for the journey. He said he couldn't sell me one but would have to take my details and I'd be written to and could explain my reason (which I told him at the time).
Letter arrived a week later saying i'd been involved in an incident on X at X (details of incident not specified) and said I had to reply within 7 days or prosecution would follow. I completed the enclosed form with my details and wrote a page explaining why it happened etc etc.
Letter received back today saying there was nothing in my response that negates my legal liability in this matter bla bla bla. They then say policy is to prosecute all those reported for fare evasion, however considering my particular circumstances and my first reported offence, on this occasion only they will settle prior to a court summons if I pay the £3.60 fare avoided and a contribution of £125 towards their costs to date and must be paid within 21 days etc etc. Failure will lead to the issue of a summons without further warning.
Now despite the fact I could not avoid the circumstance on the day I can tolerate a fine just about. Where I'm fuming is the £125 towards our costs to date. Now they have sent me two letters - that plus a bit of system updating does not equate to £125 to me and is completely unreasonable for a £3.60 avoided fare.
The fact the service is shit and often involves late trains and cancellations resulting in inconvenience and cost to me annoys me even more.
Does anyone believe I have a leg to stand on in challenging that cost? I'm sure they try it on, knowing that most will buckle under the threats, which I'll probably end up doing, but the principal of the matter infuriates me as much as anything.
Any advice or opinion appreciated.
Thanks.
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Comments
If their system does not enable them to sell you a ticket on the train (what nonsense!) then the fault is theirs. It doesn't look to me as though you were trying to evade the fare, and surely any reasonable person would see it the same way.
My local station (GWR) is just a halt with no ticket machine, so of course they are happy to sell you a ticket on the train. That's how it's meant to operate.
On principle, if you can afford the time and grief, i would challenge this one. But why did they not just issue a £20 penalty fare, which although not great you could regard as being not unreasonable? They are the idiots making a mountain out of a molehill, and their response is stupid and disproportionate. And £125 for two letters is outrageous - they dont give you £125 when you claim a refund for their screwups, but the amount of admin you have to do is similar. They have chosen to incur that "cost" by being ridiculous - it should be fought. There must be a rail user group online that can give advice though.
I agree with your contention that they are just seeking easy money.
Good luck!
Not sure whether or not this helps but their own rules seem to say whichever is the greater of £20 or twice the unpaid fare!
to take one of the following measures:
a) To charge you a Penalty Fare on certain trains and stations (see section 10 below); or
b) To charge you the full undiscounted anytime single fare to a station directly served by the train that you are on. You will not be entitled to any discounts or special terms, or for a Ticket to a station other than one served by the train that you are on; or
c) To report you for prosecution.
If you are unable to present a valid Ticket or to pay a fare (including a part payment of a Penalty Fare to the value of the Ticket required) when requested, you will be required to provide your name and address so that the matter can be followed up.
That's taken from the National Rail contract between themselves and you. As it sounds like you were able to pay the fare (including any possible penalty fare/fine) on the day, it's the fault of the conductor for not having taken the other necessary steps?
Not entirely sure (I'm definitely not a lawyer!) But I feel they're being entirely unreasonable! Especially for a 10 minute, £3.60 journey.
;-)
My understanding is that the legal position is that you should (if there is either a ticket office or a ticket vending machine) buy a ticket before getting on a train, and that your not getting to the station late is not the railway's fault.
There are a lot of people out there who will do their best to avoid paying the fare, and if the worst that will happen is that you sometimes get asked to pay the ordinary fare for the shortest plausible journey you could have been making at the point you're asked, then it doesn't really encourage anyone to bother paying.
In general, it's not really practical for staff to try and judge whether someone is 'genuine' or not.
There are some train routes where train guards / conductors sell tickets as a matter of course (usually because some stations don't have ticket selling facilities) - I don't know the line through Snodland, or what ticket selling facilities were available where you started your journey, or what notices were on display saying you must buy a ticket before travelling.
In the London suburbs, i'm fairly sure there are notices that make it clear you must have a valid ticket before travelling, SE Trains don't have staff who sell tickets on trains, although you will occasionally get ticket checked by 'revenue protection' staff.
Some train companies (or their staff) don't help themselves as some days they will happily sell you a ticket on the train or at your destination, other days they will not.
As others have mentioned, SE Trains do have a 'penalty fare' scheme, and I'm surprised that they seem to have gone straight down the 'fare evasion' line. Did the member of staff who took your details offer a penalty fare at the time? (I have a feeling that if s/he did, and you refused this, then they can go down the prosecution path)
The rail uk forums (link) has a 'disputes and prosecutions' section where you might get some better informed opinions.
Transport for London (for offences on buses/tubes) charge a £250 payment towards costs in order to avoid prosecution and a criminal record !!
if so that would seem like pretty good evidence that it was your understanding that paying on the train is acceptable
Had an incident myself on Tuesday a return to/from Liverpool booked and even though I missed my train home by minutes through circumstances beyond my control I was still forced to buy a new ticket at the added expense of £82.90 being the cheapest ticket home - costing more than my original booked journey combined!
Lesson learnt - train companies have no compassion whatsoever and are all thieving b*stards.
The fact you told the truth and are - was willing to pay the fare should be enough.
Was it an Advance ticket that specifies a particular train? If so, then if you miss that train, whatever the circumstances, you have to pay for another service. It's clearly stated in the rules for the ticket.
If you want to travel on any service then buy an Anytime ticket which allows this but it costs more.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sport/football/293678.stm