A couple of weeks ago due to unforeseen circumstance I was running late for my train to work (Maidstone to Snodland 10mins - £3.60) and had to jump on the train without buying a ticket, knowing someone would be round.
A member of staff came round and I asked if I could buy a return for the journey. He said he couldn't sell me one but would have to take my details and I'd be written to and could explain my reason (which I told him at the time).
Letter arrived a week later saying i'd been involved in an incident on X at X (details of incident not specified) and said I had to reply within 7 days or prosecution would follow. I completed the enclosed form with my details and wrote a page explaining why it happened etc etc.
Letter received back today saying there was nothing in my response that negates my legal liability in this matter bla bla bla. They then say policy is to prosecute all those reported for fare evasion, however considering my particular circumstances and my first reported offence, on this occasion only they will settle prior to a court summons if I pay the £3.60 fare avoided and a contribution of £125 towards their costs to date and must be paid within 21 days etc etc. Failure will lead to the issue of a summons without further warning.
Now despite the fact I could not avoid the circumstance on the day I can tolerate a fine just about. Where I'm fuming is the £125 towards our costs to date. Now they have sent me two letters - that plus a bit of system updating does not equate to £125 to me and is completely unreasonable for a £3.60 avoided fare.
The fact the service is shit and often involves late trains and cancellations resulting in inconvenience and cost to me annoys me even more.
Does anyone believe I have a leg to stand on in challenging that cost? I'm sure they try it on, knowing that most will buckle under the threats, which I'll probably end up doing, but the principal of the matter infuriates me as much as anything.
Any advice or opinion appreciated.
Thanks.
@The Organiser How much of the blame do you put on yourself and how much on the rail company?
Just had a look at one of there warning signs regarding penalty fares on a train and it clearly states that you MAY be liable to pay a penalty fare.
Write back and explain that you asked the guard that you wanted to purchase a ticket and that he asked for name and address to forward you the bill, which you willingly done.
Question for the original poster, if you had got to the end of your journey and there were no barriers or guards, would you have just walked out and not paid anything???
People shouldn't fare dodge and there needs to be a deterrent, but I think the current system doesn't work and there are circumstances where it is reasonable not to have a ticket - usually beacuse the train companies make it so damn difficult to get a ticket quickly sometimes due to lack of staff or ticket machines not working.
I have seen some very unreasonable/unflexible behaviour from train staff relating to this over the years. Do they have targets? This is always dangerous if so.
I work for TfL and am sorry to say that legally, you were caught travelling without a ticket.Running late is not an excuse for not having a ticket in their eyes. I am surprised that they have not issued a penalty fare to be honest.
Your best off paying the out of court settlement mate rather then going through the courts and receiving a bigger fine. As you had no ticket it is a strict liability offence that's why you never received a fine. As much as I feel for you mate, running late is not going to be a viable excuse to get it overturned.
Your best off paying the out of court settlement mate rather then going through the courts and receiving a bigger fine. As you had no ticket it is a strict liability offence that's why you never received a fine. As much as I feel for you mate, running late is not going to be a viable excuse to get it overturned.
This is when Southeastern's website says a penalty fare is due
"When will I be charged a penalty fare? If you travel on a train without a ticket, you’ll have to pay the full single fare or full return fare or, if appropriate, a penalty fare for your journey.
You might be charged a penalty fare if you: Travel without a valid ticket Can't produce an appropriate railcard on a discounted ticket Travel in First Class accommodation with a Standard Ticket Are aged 16 or over, travelling using on a child-rate ticket Continue your journey past your ticket destination The penalty is £20 or twice the full single fare from the station where you started your journey to the next stop - whichever is the greater."
There is no mention whatsoever of it being a strict liability expense. I am all in favour of people sticking to the rules - but that includes Southeastern sticking to their own published rules - rather than making them up as they go along. That is what fascists and Donald Trump try to do.
If someone tried to avoid paying the fare, or a penalty fare (e,g. by giving a false name and address), then I would have no problem with what Southeastern is proposing but the poster said he tried to pay and provided his address.
If someone tried to avoid paying the fare, or a penalty fare (e,g. by giving a false name and address), then I would have no problem with what Southeastern is proposing but the poster said he tried to pay and provided his address.
The problem is the ones who are being intentionally dishonest are the ones who will escape the fines, whereas those who don't understand the rules and think they can buy a ticket on the train (because 9 times out of 10 the ticket guy will sell you one no fuss) will get the fines the dodgers ought to be paying.
Your best off paying the out of court settlement mate rather then going through the courts and receiving a bigger fine. As you had no ticket it is a strict liability offence that's why you never received a fine. As much as I feel for you mate, running late is not going to be a viable excuse to get it overturned.
This is when Southeastern's website says a penalty fare is due
"When will I be charged a penalty fare? If you travel on a train without a ticket, you’ll have to pay the full single fare or full return fare or, if appropriate, a penalty fare for your journey.
You might be charged a penalty fare if you: Travel without a valid ticket Can't produce an appropriate railcard on a discounted ticket Travel in First Class accommodation with a Standard Ticket Are aged 16 or over, travelling using on a child-rate ticket Continue your journey past your ticket destination The penalty is £20 or twice the full single fare from the station where you started your journey to the next stop - whichever is the greater."
There is no mention whatsoever of it being a strict liability expense. I am all in favour of people sticking to the rules - but that includes Southeastern sticking to their own published rules - rather than making them up as they go along. That is what fascists and Donald Trump try to do.
Didn't see that. It totally contradicts itself there. The example bits is fine as no ticket produced isn't on there. But your right the bit about you will be asked for the full fare above if you have no ticket makes no sense. Should put it in the appeal then.
If someone tried to avoid paying the fare, or a penalty fare (e,g. by giving a false name and address), then I would have no problem with what Southeastern is proposing but the poster said he tried to pay and provided his address.
The problem is the ones who are being intentionally dishonest are the ones who will escape the fines, whereas those who don't understand the rules and think they can buy a ticket on the train (because 9 times out of 10 the ticket guy will sell you one no fuss) will get the fines the dodgers ought to be paying.
Penalising the innocent to get at the guilty is not a sign of civilization - quite the opposite.
Can you prove you regularly do this journey, and always pay it. If so then I'd take it further with them.
Explain you'll happily pay the fare, at a push a £20 "fine" - but there was no need for court costs in the first place so tell them where to go. Alternatively speak to CAB and see if you have a case to take legal advice against them....and charge and costs to them.
Railfares in this country are scandalous anyway - this is just a company taking the piss
As stated before, my contention is with the contribution to costs aspect, rather than a punishment/fine in itself, which despite the fact I could not avoid the situation that morning, I would have understood.
It just seems like a un-justified and un-supported punishment for something that must occur to everyone from time to time. We have a lot going on in our lives and sometimes something stops you getting somewhere on time, or something slips your mind. Just seems like a lack of common sense and compassion. Don't know why I'm surprised by that.
I guess I should go back to buying a season ticket, even though I would not use it many days as I would need to drive, hence why I buy day to day now.
Why did the guard not sell you a ticket on the train? Is it against their policy?
No idea - in similar circumstances down the years I have been able to and I witness people doing it on a daily basis. All this member of staff had was an I-pad type device to take details. He may have had a ticket machine in his bag, but he seemed to revelling in 'catching' me and said buying one then was not possible.
- I don't know the line through Snodland, or what ticket selling facilities were available where you started your journey, or what notices were on display saying you must buy a ticket before travelling.
Did the member of staff who took your details offer a penalty fare at the time? (I have a feeling that if s/he did, and you refused this, then they can go down the prosecution path)
Desk and machine at Maidstone West where I boarded - both with queues as my train pulled in. Notices on show (I was aware but could not avoid it that morning). This was the high-speed rather than the local service - maybe this had a baring on policy and procedure
No, he would only take my details, even when I asked if I could buy a ticket. No fine mentioned either.
have you ever paid on the train, on this route and using a card (or cash and you still have the ticket as proof)
if so that would seem like pretty good evidence that it was your understanding that paying on the train is acceptable
Have paid before by card - don't keep tickets so CC statement is only evidence - not sure if that could be linked back to a specific train/date/time etc.?!
Indeed - maybe I should be grateful. If the machine really was not working in that first case, that is an absolute disgrace. How can they get away with that?
@The Organiser How much of the blame do you put on yourself and how much on the rail company?
It was my fault entirely that I didn't have a ticket when I got on the train. Outside my control, but yes my fault none-the-less. I'm not denying that or saying I did not deserve a fine. I'm disputing the fact that they are adding on £125 towards costs when they have only sent me two letters. I'm guilty but how is it reasonable? Bit like the bank charges that everyone challenged a while back.
Question for the original poster, if you had got to the end of your journey and there were no barriers or guards, would you have just walked out and not paid anything???
Honestly probably not - I would have bought it on the way home later that evening however.
I work for TfL and am sorry to say that legally, you were caught travelling without a ticket.Running late is not an excuse for not having a ticket in their eyes. I am surprised that they have not issued a penalty fare to be honest.
Agreed - as above, no problem with receiving a penalty/fine - just not an apparent made up amount of £125 towards costs.
I would suggest you could argue that if the ticket inspector had sold you a ticket at the time, then they would not have incurred the 'expenses' they are claiming.
To be liable for prosecution there has to be an intent to avoid payment. They seem to be implying they will prosecute you and then offer you an alternative that gets them more money than a penalty fare.
This might be useful:
You can be issued with a Penalty Fare Penalty fares were originally introduced to tackle ticketless travel on suburban services whose frequent stops made effective on-train ticket examination impractical. They have since been introduced on other, longer-distance services. They require the passenger to provide a valid reason for not having a ticket. They do not exist on all train routes, and where they are in use clear signs at stations should clarify this to passengers.
If you are in a designated Penalty Fares area and you are not able to produce a valid ticket for inspection you are liable to pay either twice the full Single fare to the next station at which the train is due to stop, or £20, whichever is the greater. Any travel beyond that next station will be charged at the full Single fare. You can pay the penalty fare on the spot although you do have 21 days in which to pay. If you feel that you should not have been issued with a penalty fare you may appeal. Details of the appeals procedure are shown on the penalty fare notice issued to you.
Prosecution for fare evasion The Railway Byelaws make it an offence to travel without holding a valid ticket and being able to show it on request. A breach of this byelaw is punishable in law and, if found guilty, you would be subject at present to a fine of up to £1000.
An operator can also prosecute for ‘intent to avoid a rail fare’ under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889, s.5 (3) and you may be fined or sentenced to imprisonment for up to three months. Transport Focus may be able to help or advise you if you have received a court summons. However, we recommend you also seek legal advice if you are being prosecuted
I suggest you look at the Code of Practice to check your grounds of appeal at not being given opportunity to pay a penalty fare - if it is in a penalty fare area.
South Eastern are horrendous at best of times and that fine just takes the piss. Maybe tweet them as they won't likely want the bad publicity
#Licencedthieves
All the train companies are thieves - every last one of them.
Had an incident myself on Tuesday a return to/from Liverpool booked and even though I missed my train home by minutes through circumstances beyond my control I was still forced to buy a new ticket at the added expense of £82.90 being the cheapest ticket home - costing more than my original booked journey combined!
Lesson learnt - train companies have no compassion whatsoever and are all thieving b*stards.
What type of ticket did you have?
Was it an Advance ticket that specifies a particular train? If so, then if you miss that train, whatever the circumstances, you have to pay for another service. It's clearly stated in the rules for the ticket.
If you want to travel on any service then buy an Anytime ticket which allows this but it costs more.
Whilst waiting for the train to Bradford, CLB74's mate, strange but true, had missed his train due to a late running train in to London. I told him to go to the help desk to explain the situation, and fortunately he came back with a stamp authorising him to board the next train.
This was not always happen, but it is always worth asking in case you get a reasonable person listening to honesty.
As stated before, my contention is with the contribution to costs aspect, rather than a punishment/fine in itself, which despite the fact I could not avoid the situation that morning, I would have understood.
It just seems like a un-justified and un-supported punishment for something that must occur to everyone from time to time. We have a lot going on in our lives and sometimes something stops you getting somewhere on time, or something slips your mind. Just seems like a lack of common sense and compassion. Don't know why I'm surprised by that.
I guess I should go back to buying a season ticket, even though I would not use it many days as I would need to drive, hence why I buy day to day now.
Why did the guard not sell you a ticket on the train? Is it against their policy?
No idea - in similar circumstances down the years I have been able to and I witness people doing it on a daily basis. All this member of staff had was an I-pad type device to take details. He may have had a ticket machine in his bag, but he seemed to revelling in 'catching' me and said buying one then was not possible.
- I don't know the line through Snodland, or what ticket selling facilities were available where you started your journey, or what notices were on display saying you must buy a ticket before travelling.
Did the member of staff who took your details offer a penalty fare at the time? (I have a feeling that if s/he did, and you refused this, then they can go down the prosecution path)
Desk and machine at Maidstone West where I boarded - both with queues as my train pulled in. Notices on show (I was aware but could not avoid it that morning). This was the high-speed rather than the local service - maybe this had a baring on policy and procedure
No, he would only take my details, even when I asked if I could buy a ticket. No fine mentioned either.
have you ever paid on the train, on this route and using a card (or cash and you still have the ticket as proof)
if so that would seem like pretty good evidence that it was your understanding that paying on the train is acceptable
Have paid before by card - don't keep tickets so CC statement is only evidence - not sure if that could be linked back to a specific train/date/time etc.?!
Indeed - maybe I should be grateful. If the machine really was not working in that first case, that is an absolute disgrace. How can they get away with that?
@The Organiser How much of the blame do you put on yourself and how much on the rail company?
It was my fault entirely that I didn't have a ticket when I got on the train. Outside my control, but yes my fault none-the-less. I'm not denying that or saying I did not deserve a fine. I'm disputing the fact that they are adding on £125 towards costs when they have only sent me two letters. I'm guilty but how is it reasonable? Bit like the bank charges that everyone challenged a while back.
Question for the original poster, if you had got to the end of your journey and there were no barriers or guards, would you have just walked out and not paid anything???
Honestly probably not - I would have bought it on the way home later that evening however.
I work for TfL and am sorry to say that legally, you were caught travelling without a ticket.Running late is not an excuse for not having a ticket in their eyes. I am surprised that they have not issued a penalty fare to be honest.
Agreed - as above, no problem with receiving a penalty/fine - just not an apparent made up amount of £125 towards costs.
Write directly to the CEO outlining your case. Sometimes jumping up the line works. Good luck.
As stated before, my contention is with the contribution to costs aspect, rather than a punishment/fine in itself, which despite the fact I could not avoid the situation that morning, I would have understood.
It just seems like a un-justified and un-supported punishment for something that must occur to everyone from time to time. We have a lot going on in our lives and sometimes something stops you getting somewhere on time, or something slips your mind. Just seems like a lack of common sense and compassion. Don't know why I'm surprised by that.
I guess I should go back to buying a season ticket, even though I would not use it many days as I would need to drive, hence why I buy day to day now.
Why did the guard not sell you a ticket on the train? Is it against their policy?
No idea - in similar circumstances down the years I have been able to and I witness people doing it on a daily basis. All this member of staff had was an I-pad type device to take details. He may have had a ticket machine in his bag, but he seemed to revelling in 'catching' me and said buying one then was not possible.
- I don't know the line through Snodland, or what ticket selling facilities were available where you started your journey, or what notices were on display saying you must buy a ticket before travelling.
Did the member of staff who took your details offer a penalty fare at the time? (I have a feeling that if s/he did, and you refused this, then they can go down the prosecution path)
Desk and machine at Maidstone West where I boarded - both with queues as my train pulled in. Notices on show (I was aware but could not avoid it that morning). This was the high-speed rather than the local service - maybe this had a baring on policy and procedure
No, he would only take my details, even when I asked if I could buy a ticket. No fine mentioned either.
have you ever paid on the train, on this route and using a card (or cash and you still have the ticket as proof)
if so that would seem like pretty good evidence that it was your understanding that paying on the train is acceptable
Have paid before by card - don't keep tickets so CC statement is only evidence - not sure if that could be linked back to a specific train/date/time etc.?!
Indeed - maybe I should be grateful. If the machine really was not working in that first case, that is an absolute disgrace. How can they get away with that?
@The Organiser How much of the blame do you put on yourself and how much on the rail company?
It was my fault entirely that I didn't have a ticket when I got on the train. Outside my control, but yes my fault none-the-less. I'm not denying that or saying I did not deserve a fine. I'm disputing the fact that they are adding on £125 towards costs when they have only sent me two letters. I'm guilty but how is it reasonable? Bit like the bank charges that everyone challenged a while back.
Question for the original poster, if you had got to the end of your journey and there were no barriers or guards, would you have just walked out and not paid anything???
Honestly probably not - I would have bought it on the way home later that evening however.
I work for TfL and am sorry to say that legally, you were caught travelling without a ticket.Running late is not an excuse for not having a ticket in their eyes. I am surprised that they have not issued a penalty fare to be honest.
Agreed - as above, no problem with receiving a penalty/fine - just not an apparent made up amount of £125 towards costs.
Write directly to the CEO outlining your case. Sometimes jumping up the line works. Good luck.
Similar thing happened to me a few years ago... I jumped on a train at New Eltham as all the ticket offices were shut and the Q for the machine was round the corner... Anyway I fought them all the way and went to Greenwich Magistrates... I provided evidence that I always had a ticket going back years etc... Never made it into court, the court clerk came out and just said don't do it again!!
South Eastern are horrendous at best of times and that fine just takes the piss. Maybe tweet them as they won't likely want the bad publicity
#Licencedthieves
All the train companies are thieves - every last one of them.
Had an incident myself on Tuesday a return to/from Liverpool booked and even though I missed my train home by minutes through circumstances beyond my control I was still forced to buy a new ticket at the added expense of £82.90 being the cheapest ticket home - costing more than my original booked journey combined!
Lesson learnt - train companies have no compassion whatsoever and are all thieving b*stards.
What type of ticket did you have?
Was it an Advance ticket that specifies a particular train? If so, then if you miss that train, whatever the circumstances, you have to pay for another service. It's clearly stated in the rules for the ticket.
If you want to travel on any service then buy an Anytime ticket which allows this but it costs more.
Whilst waiting for the train to Bradford, CLB74's mate, strange but true, had missed his train due to a late running train in to London. I told him to go to the help desk to explain the situation, and fortunately he came back with a stamp authorising him to board the next train.
This was not always happen, but it is always worth asking in case you get a reasonable person listening to honesty.
Elfs he got away with it because another mate who had just made the 8am to Bradford had a cancellation and very late train on his line. Fella who got on the 9am quoted this line , customer service lady looked up and see what happened on that train line and that's why he was allowed to go on 9am
South Eastern are horrendous at best of times and that fine just takes the piss. Maybe tweet them as they won't likely want the bad publicity
#Licencedthieves
All the train companies are thieves - every last one of them.
Had an incident myself on Tuesday a return to/from Liverpool booked and even though I missed my train home by minutes through circumstances beyond my control I was still forced to buy a new ticket at the added expense of £82.90 being the cheapest ticket home - costing more than my original booked journey combined!
Lesson learnt - train companies have no compassion whatsoever and are all thieving b*stards.
What type of ticket did you have?
Was it an Advance ticket that specifies a particular train? If so, then if you miss that train, whatever the circumstances, you have to pay for another service. It's clearly stated in the rules for the ticket.
If you want to travel on any service then buy an Anytime ticket which allows this but it costs more.
Whilst waiting for the train to Bradford, CLB74's mate, strange but true, had missed his train due to a late running train in to London. I told him to go to the help desk to explain the situation, and fortunately he came back with a stamp authorising him to board the next train.
This was not always happen, but it is always worth asking in case you get a reasonable person listening to honesty.
Elfs he got away with it because another mate who had just made the 8am to Bradford had a cancellation and very late train on his line. Fella who got on the 9am quoted this line , customer service lady looked up and see what happened on that train line and that's why he was allowed to go on 9am
Similar thing happened when I needed to travel to Kings Cross from Kent so was sold a ticket saying 'Kings Cross' as the destination, with LU travel included. Anyway had to go through Charing Cross and the barrier ate my ticket. Went to the kiosk to complain and they told me that it is physically impossible to sell me that ticket since both Charing Cross and Kings Cross are a London terminus. Eventually after much fussing they printed me a free ticket and told me not to put my ticket through any barriers to avoid the ticket being swallowed. Utter shambles, why sell me the ticket in the first place if the advertised connection was going to cause issues?
South Eastern are horrendous at best of times and that fine just takes the piss. Maybe tweet them as they won't likely want the bad publicity
#Licencedthieves
All the train companies are thieves - every last one of them.
Had an incident myself on Tuesday a return to/from Liverpool booked and even though I missed my train home by minutes through circumstances beyond my control I was still forced to buy a new ticket at the added expense of £82.90 being the cheapest ticket home - costing more than my original booked journey combined!
Lesson learnt - train companies have no compassion whatsoever and are all thieving b*stards.
What type of ticket did you have?
Was it an Advance ticket that specifies a particular train? If so, then if you miss that train, whatever the circumstances, you have to pay for another service. It's clearly stated in the rules for the ticket.
If you want to travel on any service then buy an Anytime ticket which allows this but it costs more.
Whilst waiting for the train to Bradford, CLB74's mate, strange but true, had missed his train due to a late running train in to London. I told him to go to the help desk to explain the situation, and fortunately he came back with a stamp authorising him to board the next train.
This was not always happen, but it is always worth asking in case you get a reasonable person listening to honesty.
Elfs he got away with it because another mate who had just made the 8am to Bradford had a cancellation and very late train on his line. Fella who got on the 9am quoted this line , customer service lady looked up and see what happened on that train line and that's why he was allowed to go on 9am
So not only did I not get a drink for my troubles, your mate told a whopper!
South Eastern are horrendous at best of times and that fine just takes the piss. Maybe tweet them as they won't likely want the bad publicity
#Licencedthieves
All the train companies are thieves - every last one of them.
Had an incident myself on Tuesday a return to/from Liverpool booked and even though I missed my train home by minutes through circumstances beyond my control I was still forced to buy a new ticket at the added expense of £82.90 being the cheapest ticket home - costing more than my original booked journey combined!
Lesson learnt - train companies have no compassion whatsoever and are all thieving b*stards.
What type of ticket did you have?
Was it an Advance ticket that specifies a particular train? If so, then if you miss that train, whatever the circumstances, you have to pay for another service. It's clearly stated in the rules for the ticket.
If you want to travel on any service then buy an Anytime ticket which allows this but it costs more.
Whilst waiting for the train to Bradford, CLB74's mate, strange but true, had missed his train due to a late running train in to London. I told him to go to the help desk to explain the situation, and fortunately he came back with a stamp authorising him to board the next train.
This was not always happen, but it is always worth asking in case you get a reasonable person listening to honesty.
Elfs he got away with it because another mate who had just made the 8am to Bradford had a cancellation and very late train on his line. Fella who got on the 9am quoted this line , customer service lady looked up and see what happened on that train line and that's why he was allowed to go on 9am
So not only did I not get a drink for my troubles, your mate told a whopper!
F@ck me not another beer Yes I was on the advisory role though
Well I'm sorry for you Organiser. Sounds like they have not been enforcing their rules consistently, and you have fallen foul. As others have said in this thread, it feels like a scam. Why was the iPad man not just issuing penalty fares on the spot? Was he just too chicken to?
It sounds to me like iPad man was briefed by his employer to, "get the address of the customer, make him think he can write and explain that he wanted to pay before boarding, and that he'll be ok." The employer then writes to the customer and issues them with the penalty fare by post, saving iPad man any potential aggro on the train."
I travel by train every day and detest both South Eastern (dreadful) and Southern Railway (beyond dreadful).
Seems clear that if you were on southeastern railways, without a valid ticket for whatever reason, you are liable to pay the double fare or fine...
We all seem to agree on that.
I don't really understand how it escalated from this into the 'pay our collection costs'. If, as you originally described, you agreed to pay this, then clearly asking you to pay these fees due to their incompetence is wrong.
If, on the other hand, you continued to suggest you were liable for nothing even though you thought this may not be the case, and only after being threatened with legal action have you owned up to what actually happened, in afraid you may well have to pay for the lot.
Def the former Alwaysneil - offered to pay the ticket there and then and would, given the opportunity, have accepted a fine if it had been forthcoming. Had similar happen to me about 8 years ago and was fined £20 on the spot - no problem with that despite how unjust it felt, the rules are the rules.
Comments
Write back and explain that you asked the guard that you wanted to purchase a ticket and that he asked for name and address to forward you the bill, which you willingly done.
I have seen some very unreasonable/unflexible behaviour from train staff relating to this over the years. Do they have targets? This is always dangerous if so.
"When will I be charged a penalty fare?
If you travel on a train without a ticket, you’ll have to pay the full single fare or full return fare or, if appropriate, a penalty fare for your journey.
You might be charged a penalty fare if you:
Travel without a valid ticket
Can't produce an appropriate railcard on a discounted ticket
Travel in First Class accommodation with a Standard Ticket
Are aged 16 or over, travelling using on a child-rate ticket
Continue your journey past your ticket destination
The penalty is £20 or twice the full single fare from the station where you started your journey to the next stop - whichever is the greater."
There is no mention whatsoever of it being a strict liability expense. I am all in favour of people sticking to the rules - but that includes Southeastern sticking to their own published rules - rather than making them up as they go along. That is what fascists and Donald Trump try to do.
How is this determined? Different rules for different operators? Lines? Days? Stations? Times of day? What?
Genuine question
Explain you'll happily pay the fare, at a push a £20 "fine" - but there was no need for court costs in the first place so tell them where to go. Alternatively speak to CAB and see if you have a case to take legal advice against them....and charge and costs to them.
Railfares in this country are scandalous anyway - this is just a company taking the piss
As stated before, my contention is with the contribution to costs aspect, rather than a punishment/fine in itself, which despite the fact I could not avoid the situation that morning, I would have understood.
It just seems like a un-justified and un-supported punishment for something that must occur to everyone from time to time. We have a lot going on in our lives and sometimes something stops you getting somewhere on time, or something slips your mind. Just seems like a lack of common sense and compassion. Don't know why I'm surprised by that.
I guess I should go back to buying a season ticket, even though I would not use it many days as I would need to drive, hence why I buy day to day now.
To answer some questions raised: I'd be more than accepting of that Len as that would seem reasonable. No idea - in similar circumstances down the years I have been able to and I witness people doing it on a daily basis. All this member of staff had was an I-pad type device to take details. He may have had a ticket machine in his bag, but he seemed to revelling in 'catching' me and said buying one then was not possible. Desk and machine at Maidstone West where I boarded - both with queues as my train pulled in. Notices on show (I was aware but could not avoid it that morning). This was the high-speed rather than the local service - maybe this had a baring on policy and procedure
No, he would only take my details, even when I asked if I could buy a ticket. No fine mentioned either. Have paid before by card - don't keep tickets so CC statement is only evidence - not sure if that could be linked back to a specific train/date/time etc.?! I know what you're getting at but slightly different scenarios imo. Indeed - maybe I should be grateful. If the machine really was not working in that first case, that is an absolute disgrace. How can they get away with that? Not that I'm aware of - standard ticket machine and desk, both of which had queues as my train was to depart. It was my fault entirely that I didn't have a ticket when I got on the train. Outside my control, but yes my fault none-the-less. I'm not denying that or saying I did not deserve a fine. I'm disputing the fact that they are adding on £125 towards costs when they have only sent me two letters. I'm guilty but how is it reasonable? Bit like the bank charges that everyone challenged a while back. Honestly probably not - I would have bought it on the way home later that evening however. Agreed - as above, no problem with receiving a penalty/fine - just not an apparent made up amount of £125 towards costs.
Seems like a money printing exercise.
To be liable for prosecution there has to be an intent to avoid payment. They seem to be implying they will prosecute you and then offer you an alternative that gets them more money than a penalty fare.
This might be useful:
You can be issued with a Penalty Fare
Penalty fares were originally introduced to tackle ticketless travel on suburban services whose frequent stops made effective on-train ticket examination impractical. They have since been introduced on other, longer-distance services. They require the passenger to provide a valid reason for not having a ticket. They do not exist on all train routes, and where they are in use clear signs at stations should clarify this to passengers.
If you are in a designated Penalty Fares area and you are not able to produce a valid ticket for inspection you are liable to pay either twice the full Single fare to the next station at which the train is due to stop, or £20, whichever is the greater. Any travel beyond that next station will be charged at the full Single fare. You can pay the penalty fare on the spot although you do have 21 days in which to pay. If you feel that you should not have been issued with a penalty fare you may appeal. Details of the appeals procedure are shown on the penalty fare notice issued to you.
Prosecution for fare evasion
The Railway Byelaws make it an offence to travel without holding a valid ticket and being able to show it on request. A breach of this byelaw is punishable in law and, if found guilty, you would be subject at present to a fine of up to £1000.
An operator can also prosecute for ‘intent to avoid a rail fare’ under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889, s.5 (3) and you may be fined or sentenced to imprisonment for up to three months. Transport Focus may be able to help or advise you if you have received a court summons. However, we recommend you also seek legal advice if you are being prosecuted
The industry introduced in May 2013 a Code of Practice on dealing with passengers who either have no ticket at all or whose ticket is invalid. http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/content/Ticket_Irregularities_Code_of_Practice.pdf
I suggest you look at the Code of Practice to check your grounds of appeal at not being given opportunity to pay a penalty fare - if it is in a penalty fare area.
This was not always happen, but it is always worth asking in case you get a reasonable person listening to honesty.
Why can it not be throughout the network?
Good luck.
Fella who got on the 9am quoted this line , customer service lady looked up and see what happened on that train line and that's why he was allowed to go on 9am
Yes I was on the advisory role though
It sounds to me like iPad man was briefed by his employer to, "get the address of the customer, make him think he can write and explain that he wanted to pay before boarding, and that he'll be ok." The employer then writes to the customer and issues them with the penalty fare by post, saving iPad man any potential aggro on the train."
I travel by train every day and detest both South Eastern (dreadful) and Southern Railway (beyond dreadful).
Good luck.
We all seem to agree on that.
I don't really understand how it escalated from this into the 'pay our collection costs'. If, as you originally described, you agreed to pay this, then clearly asking you to pay these fees due to their incompetence is wrong.
If, on the other hand, you continued to suggest you were liable for nothing even though you thought this may not be the case, and only after being threatened with legal action have you owned up to what actually happened, in afraid you may well have to pay for the lot.
I hope you are in the former position.
Had similar happen to me about 8 years ago and was fined £20 on the spot - no problem with that despite how unjust it felt, the rules are the rules.