@Anna_Kissed I fully respect your view, however we have been on this road repeated times on here and we have never found a way to make this debate work. Too many of us on here simply like horse racing and want to,discuss and enjoy the big races and festivals.
This isn't niche stuff, these are some of,the biggest events on the sporting calendar. This angle repeatedly takes the enjoyment from those event. Now,you of course may think 'good', but it causes unnecessary division on here and to be honest, it's not the audience for it.
So not saying you are wrong, but please find alternative audiences for this angle / debate please, which will be more suited to your stance. Thanks a lot
Are you seeking to censor me @AFKABartram? It's because of the unquestioned, year-after-year, pro-racing comments that I saw fit to question 'orthodoxy' and present a different point of view. My comments have been made in good faith and I have provided factual evidence to back them up.
I disagree with your comment that CL is "not the audience for it". Is this an open forum, or not? I don't wish to waste time on animal advocacy forums. They know the score. A football forum is an ideal place in which to question prevailing orthodoxy and conservative thought.
I have made clear my intention not to 'stoke' on the numerous pro-racing threads.
What is this? Cosy Corner? Status Quo? One Of Us? And as soon as there's a hint of opposition, the proponents cry 'foul'. Talk about wanting it both ways!
As to your "we have never found a way to make this debate work". Yes, we have. It's called the Internet and freedom to express a factually-based view, without recourse to swearing or threat. But to tell me to cease altogether? No, that's not on.
If you want to have a forum with your own set of rules, open one, finance it and attract an audience to use it, unless you're willing to do that, perhaps you should stick to the rules of the forum someone else has put in the effort to open/run/finance for over a decade.
If the admin of a forum tells you this isn't the audience for your discussion, then that's it, it isn't the place, it's not really up for debate is it.
Some people are unbelievable. IMO you're lucky to not be banned for a deliberate wind up attempt, on top of being a giant cockwomble.
@Anna_Kissed I fully respect your view, however we have been on this road repeated times on here and we have never found a way to make this debate work. Too many of us on here simply like horse racing and want to,discuss and enjoy the big races and festivals.
This isn't niche stuff, these are some of,the biggest events on the sporting calendar. This angle repeatedly takes the enjoyment from those event. Now,you of course may think 'good', but it causes unnecessary division on here and to be honest, it's not the audience for it.
So not saying you are wrong, but please find alternative audiences for this angle / debate please, which will be more suited to your stance. Thanks a lot
Are you seeking to censor me @AFKABartram? It's because of the unquestioned, year-after-year, pro-racing comments that I saw fit to question 'orthodoxy' and present a different point of view. My comments have been made in good faith and I have provided factual evidence to back them up.
I disagree with your comment that CL is "not the audience for it". Is this an open forum, or not? I don't wish to waste time on animal advocacy forums. They know the score. A football forum is an ideal place in which to question prevailing orthodoxy and conservative thought.
I have made clear my intention not to 'stoke' on the numerous pro-racing threads.
What is this? Cosy Corner? Status Quo? One Of Us? And as soon as there's a hint of opposition, the proponents cry 'foul'. Talk about wanting it both ways!
As to your "we have never found a way to make this debate work". Yes, we have. It's called the Internet and freedom to express a factually-based view, without recourse to swearing or threat. But to tell me to cease altogether? No, that's not on.
If you want to have a forum with your own set of rules, open one, finance it and attract an audience to use it, unless you're willing to do that, perhaps you should stick to the rules of the forum someone else has put in the effort to open/run/finance for over a decade.
If the admin of a forum tells you this isn't the audience for your discussion, then that's it, it isn't the place, it's not really up for debate is it.
Some people are unbelievable. IMO you're lucky to not be banned for a deliberate wind up attempt, on top of being a giant cockwomble.
I am interpreting intent and actions of a man I don't know, but if AFKA wanted to shut down this thread or ban A_K, he would have. He didn't. His point was to find another angle for this discussion.
I, for one, will say that I did not realize how many horses died from racing, and I used to live just up the hill from the Del Mar race track, one of the biggest in the states (should note I don't know if the States have different regulations). So I don't think this whole thing is for naught.
But even putting that to one side, I think the conversation about, say, head injuries in football (both American and proper) is relevant in that a good reaction to that would be to better mediate the sport to make sure those things don't happen. I will put my hand up and say apart from sometimes running next to training horses, I know nothing about the sport. But isn't there a way the conduct it where the animals don't die? This isn't meant to be rhetorical or a wind up, it's a genuine question.
@Anna_Kissed I fully respect your view, however we have been on this road repeated times on here and we have never found a way to make this debate work. Too many of us on here simply like horse racing and want to,discuss and enjoy the big races and festivals.
This isn't niche stuff, these are some of,the biggest events on the sporting calendar. This angle repeatedly takes the enjoyment from those event. Now,you of course may think 'good', but it causes unnecessary division on here and to be honest, it's not the audience for it.
So not saying you are wrong, but please find alternative audiences for this angle / debate please, which will be more suited to your stance. Thanks a lot
Are you seeking to censor me @AFKABartram? It's because of the unquestioned, year-after-year, pro-racing comments that I saw fit to question 'orthodoxy' and present a different point of view. My comments have been made in good faith and I have provided factual evidence to back them up.
I disagree with your comment that CL is "not the audience for it". Is this an open forum, or not? I don't wish to waste time on animal advocacy forums. They know the score. A football forum is an ideal place in which to question prevailing orthodoxy and conservative thought.
I have made clear my intention not to 'stoke' on the numerous pro-racing threads.
What is this? Cosy Corner? Status Quo? One Of Us? And as soon as there's a hint of opposition, the proponents cry 'foul'. Talk about wanting it both ways!
As to your "we have never found a way to make this debate work". Yes, we have. It's called the Internet and freedom to express a factually-based view, without recourse to swearing or threat. But to tell me to cease altogether? No, that's not on.
To be quite honest, I probably agree with you more than the pro-horse racing crowd.
That post is a real feat of pretentiousness mixed in with a severe lack of gratitude though. Have a look at yourself, mate.
You're using a forum he manages, in his spare time and for free, to push a topic that always provokes arguments and requires a disproportionate amount of his time, and you have the cheek to accuse him of censorship?
Also, what do you mean "No, that's not on."? What, are you going to force him to spend more time moderating the childish digs and remarks which will undoubtedly flow? Or are you going to steal his mouse and keyboard so he can't just sink your thread?
Ultimately, it's not censorship - it's managing a community. Part of management is removing disruptive elements and/or preventing friction between its members. All these threads do is cause friction.
@Anna_Kissed I fully respect your view, however we have been on this road repeated times on here and we have never found a way to make this debate work. Too many of us on here simply like horse racing and want to,discuss and enjoy the big races and festivals.
This isn't niche stuff, these are some of,the biggest events on the sporting calendar. This angle repeatedly takes the enjoyment from those event. Now,you of course may think 'good', but it causes unnecessary division on here and to be honest, it's not the audience for it.
So not saying you are wrong, but please find alternative audiences for this angle / debate please, which will be more suited to your stance. Thanks a lot
Are you seeking to censor me @AFKABartram? It's because of the unquestioned, year-after-year, pro-racing comments that I saw fit to question 'orthodoxy' and present a different point of view. My comments have been made in good faith and I have provided factual evidence to back them up.
I disagree with your comment that CL is "not the audience for it". Is this an open forum, or not? I don't wish to waste time on animal advocacy forums. They know the score. A football forum is an ideal place in which to question prevailing orthodoxy and conservative thought.
I have made clear my intention not to 'stoke' on the numerous pro-racing threads.
What is this? Cosy Corner? Status Quo? One Of Us? And as soon as there's a hint of opposition, the proponents cry 'foul'. Talk about wanting it both ways!
As to your "we have never found a way to make this debate work". Yes, we have. It's called the Internet and freedom to express a factually-based view, without recourse to swearing or threat. But to tell me to cease altogether? No, that's not on.
Have you ever heard of Twitter? You'll be surrounded by like minded people on there.
I also find the deaths of magnificent horses truly sad. Surely just banning jump racing would save the majority of their lives because in comparison a lot fewer die in flat racing.
This seems the logical conclusion to me, but I've spent all of 30 seconds thinking about it.
Anyone with greater knowledge than I know if only permitting flat racing would save a lot of horses lives ?
I also find the deaths of magnificent horses truly sad. Surely just banning jump racing would save the majority of their lives because in comparison a lot fewer die in flat racing.
This seems the logical conclusion to me, but I've spent all of 30 seconds thinking about it.
Anyone with greater knowledge than I know if only permitting flat racing would save a lot of horses lives ?
I also find the deaths of magnificent horses truly sad. Surely just banning jump racing would save the majority of their lives because in comparison a lot fewer die in flat racing.
This seems the logical conclusion to me, but I've spent all of 30 seconds thinking about it.
Anyone with greater knowledge than I know if only permitting flat racing would save a lot of horses lives ?
It would still result in certain death for millions of caterpillars and grubs and other ground living fauna
There is a Cheltenham thread for those into the horse racing. This subject is a traditional thread that appears at the same time every year. The ins and outs have been argued this way and that each March on Charlton Life for ages. People are at liberty to ignore this thread, but on a football site that includes a pro horse racing thread, this anti thread is legitimate in my view. The Brexit thread was removed (more's the pity in my opinion as personally I liked it) and AFKA et al are the arbiters at the end of the day. This thread hasn't been removed or censored which speaks volumes for the tolerance of the moderators. A once a year thread pointing out the lamentable aspects of horse racing is fair enough I would say.
There is a Cheltenham thread for those into the horse racing. This subject is a traditional thread that appears at the same time every year. The ins and outs have been argued this way and that each March on Charlton Life for ages. People are at liberty to ignore this thread, but on a football site that includes a pro horse racing thread, this anti thread is legitimate in my view. The Brexit thread was removed (more's the pity in my opinion as personally I liked it) and AFKA et al are the arbiters at the end of the day. This thread hasn't been removed or censored which speaks volumes for the tolerance of the moderators. A once a year thread pointing out the lamentable aspects of horse racing is fair enough I would say.
Twice a year, Seth - there will be another one along for Aintree.
I welcome both threads - it's good to see alternative views offered on what is in many respects a contentious sport and practice.
Personally, as someone who is indeed a fan of horse racing, I would contend that safety appears to be drastically improving for both horses and jockeys. There will always be accidents, though - that's the nature of horse racing.
Yes, the issue of "but the horses can't choose" is a legitimate concern. I do wonder what OP thinks of having pets, though. (They're not put under the kind of strain Thoroughbreds are, but at the same time, horses are strong working animals that are also pushed to peak conditions for sport.)
You should have seen the reaction of everyone who has an interest in horse racing to Many Clouds' death, for instance. There weren't many untouched by it.
--------
Ultimately though this becomes a philosophical/ideological argument that descends into "are you vegetarian/how do you feel about animal rights/what gives US authority over other species" etc etc, which itself ends in disagreement.
And the disagreeing is fine - but at the end of the day, people keep trying to have the last word, and THAT is what gets annoying and fruitless.
Sorry mate, I was getting mixed up there. Must be the extra anti-vegetarian thread brought about by the five pound note that is confusing me. I participated in the cruelty to horses thread last year and said everything I had to say then, but a bit of a reminder from Anna Kissed I can live with.
I welcome both threads - it's good to see alternative views offered on what is in many respects a contentious sport and practice.
Personally, as someone who is indeed a fan of horse racing, I would contend that safety appears to be drastically improving for both horses and jockeys. There will always be accidents, though - that's the nature of horse racing.
Yes, the issue of "but the horses can't choose" is a legitimate concern. I do wonder what OP thinks of having pets, though. (They're not put under the kind of strain Thoroughbreds are, but at the same time, horses are strong working animals that are also pushed to peak conditions for sport.)
You should have seen the reaction of everyone who has an interest in horse racing to Many Clouds' death, for instance. There weren't many untouched by it.
--------
Ultimately though this becomes a philosophical/ideological argument that descends into "are you vegetarian/how do you feel about animal rights/what gives US authority over other species" etc etc, which itself ends in disagreement.
And the disagreeing is fine - but at the end of the day, people keep trying to have the last word, and THAT is what gets annoying and fruitless.
@Anna_Kissed I fully respect your view, however we have been on this road repeated times on here and we have never found a way to make this debate work. Too many of us on here simply like horse racing and want to,discuss and enjoy the big races and festivals.
This isn't niche stuff, these are some of,the biggest events on the sporting calendar. This angle repeatedly takes the enjoyment from those event. Now,you of course may think 'good', but it causes unnecessary division on here and to be honest, it's not the audience for it.
So not saying you are wrong, but please find alternative audiences for this angle / debate please, which will be more suited to your stance. Thanks a lot
Are you seeking to censor me @AFKABartram? It's because of the unquestioned, year-after-year, pro-racing comments that I saw fit to question 'orthodoxy' and present a different point of view. My comments have been made in good faith and I have provided factual evidence to back them up.
I disagree with your comment that CL is "not the audience for it". Is this an open forum, or not? I don't wish to waste time on animal advocacy forums. They know the score. A football forum is an ideal place in which to question prevailing orthodoxy and conservative thought.
I have made clear my intention not to 'stoke' on the numerous pro-racing threads.
What is this? Cosy Corner? Status Quo? One Of Us? And as soon as there's a hint of opposition, the proponents cry 'foul'. Talk about wanting it both ways!
As to your "we have never found a way to make this debate work". Yes, we have. It's called the Internet and freedom to express a factually-based view, without recourse to swearing or threat. But to tell me to cease altogether? No, that's not on.
If you want to have a forum with your own set of rules, open one, finance it and attract an audience to use it, unless you're willing to do that, perhaps you should stick to the rules of the forum someone else has put in the effort to open/run/finance for over a decade.
If the admin of a forum tells you this isn't the audience for your discussion, then that's it, it isn't the place, it's not really up for debate is it.
Some people are unbelievable. IMO you're lucky to not be banned for a deliberate wind up attempt, on top of being a giant cockwomble.
'If you don't like it don't come'
Cheers Roger.
I have not seen this place where it says personal, non offensive views cannot be expressed.
If AFKA wanted to he could have deleted the thread, therefore inviting further discussions, just tinting it with wanting a new approach.
If being a WUM or 'cockwomble' whatever that is was a bannable offence there'd only be 5 members left.
@Anna_Kissed I fully respect your view, however we have been on this road repeated times on here and we have never found a way to make this debate work. Too many of us on here simply like horse racing and want to,discuss and enjoy the big races and festivals.
This isn't niche stuff, these are some of,the biggest events on the sporting calendar. This angle repeatedly takes the enjoyment from those event. Now,you of course may think 'good', but it causes unnecessary division on here and to be honest, it's not the audience for it.
So not saying you are wrong, but please find alternative audiences for this angle / debate please, which will be more suited to your stance. Thanks a lot
Are you seeking to censor me @AFKABartram? It's because of the unquestioned, year-after-year, pro-racing comments that I saw fit to question 'orthodoxy' and present a different point of view. My comments have been made in good faith and I have provided factual evidence to back them up.
I disagree with your comment that CL is "not the audience for it". Is this an open forum, or not? I don't wish to waste time on animal advocacy forums. They know the score. A football forum is an ideal place in which to question prevailing orthodoxy and conservative thought.
I have made clear my intention not to 'stoke' on the numerous pro-racing threads.
What is this? Cosy Corner? Status Quo? One Of Us? And as soon as there's a hint of opposition, the proponents cry 'foul'. Talk about wanting it both ways!
As to your "we have never found a way to make this debate work". Yes, we have. It's called the Internet and freedom to express a factually-based view, without recourse to swearing or threat. But to tell me to cease altogether? No, that's not on.
Have you ever heard of Twitter? You'll be surrounded by like minded people on there.
I am curious as to whether you care about the horses and their achievements - indeed, if you have even a passing knowledge of horse racing in general - or whether you look to use their deaths solely for what seems to be a form of point-scoring.
While horse racing induced deaths happen fairly frequently, as you rightly note, it doesn't diminish how most punters and racing fans feel when they have to put down or pass away.
Comments
If the admin of a forum tells you this isn't the audience for your discussion, then that's it, it isn't the place, it's not really up for debate is it.
Some people are unbelievable. IMO you're lucky to not be banned for a deliberate wind up attempt, on top of being a giant cockwomble.
I, for one, will say that I did not realize how many horses died from racing, and I used to live just up the hill from the Del Mar race track, one of the biggest in the states (should note I don't know if the States have different regulations). So I don't think this whole thing is for naught.
But even putting that to one side, I think the conversation about, say, head injuries in football (both American and proper) is relevant in that a good reaction to that would be to better mediate the sport to make sure those things don't happen. I will put my hand up and say apart from sometimes running next to training horses, I know nothing about the sport. But isn't there a way the conduct it where the animals don't die? This isn't meant to be rhetorical or a wind up, it's a genuine question.
That post is a real feat of pretentiousness mixed in with a severe lack of gratitude though. Have a look at yourself, mate.
You're using a forum he manages, in his spare time and for free, to push a topic that always provokes arguments and requires a disproportionate amount of his time, and you have the cheek to accuse him of censorship?
Also, what do you mean "No, that's not on."? What, are you going to force him to spend more time moderating the childish digs and remarks which will undoubtedly flow? Or are you going to steal his mouse and keyboard so he can't just sink your thread?
Ultimately, it's not censorship - it's managing a community. Part of management is removing disruptive elements and/or preventing friction between its members. All these threads do is cause friction.
Anyone with greater knowledge than I know if only permitting flat racing would save a lot of horses lives ?
The Brexit thread was removed (more's the pity in my opinion as personally I liked it) and AFKA et al are the arbiters at the end of the day. This thread hasn't been removed or censored which speaks volumes for the tolerance of the moderators.
A once a year thread pointing out the lamentable aspects of horse racing is fair enough I would say.
Personally, as someone who is indeed a fan of horse racing, I would contend that safety appears to be drastically improving for both horses and jockeys. There will always be accidents, though - that's the nature of horse racing.
Yes, the issue of "but the horses can't choose" is a legitimate concern. I do wonder what OP thinks of having pets, though. (They're not put under the kind of strain Thoroughbreds are, but at the same time, horses are strong working animals that are also pushed to peak conditions for sport.)
You should have seen the reaction of everyone who has an interest in horse racing to Many Clouds' death, for instance. There weren't many untouched by it.
--------
Ultimately though this becomes a philosophical/ideological argument that descends into "are you vegetarian/how do you feel about animal rights/what gives US authority over other species" etc etc, which itself ends in disagreement.
And the disagreeing is fine - but at the end of the day, people keep trying to have the last word, and THAT is what gets annoying and fruitless.
I participated in the cruelty to horses thread last year and said everything I had to say then, but a bit of a reminder from Anna Kissed I can live with.
(Queue the people that will say if Horses didn't want to run, they wouldn't etc...)
Cheers Roger.
I have not seen this place where it says personal, non offensive views cannot be expressed.
If AFKA wanted to he could have deleted the thread, therefore inviting further discussions, just tinting it with wanting a new approach.
If being a WUM or 'cockwomble' whatever that is was a bannable offence there'd only be 5 members left.
Very sad. RIP Brexit Bill.
However I have absolutely no problem with reading the views of @Anna_Kissed which are sincerely held.
This is a DISCUSSION forum after all.
While horse racing induced deaths happen fairly frequently, as you rightly note, it doesn't diminish how most punters and racing fans feel when they have to put down or pass away.