The violent republican forces would have thrown up somebody, it was McGuiness and Adams, but if not those two it would have been somebody else. The best (hindsight) solution would have been to start with the peace process of course, not end with it. In Ireland we still have the dregs of colonialism and imperialism playing out, with peace at risk because of Brexit. The republicans are from the same place as many groups who have been involved in violent political struggle and it is shocking that we as mankind can't find another way to solve problems. For me I really don't like nationalists of any type, and I hold an Irish passport, but then again if the choice is between nationalism or colonialism I would probably choose nationalism. Those who have lost people, and to an extent it is all of us, are brave if they can reconcile, but reconciliation is not an expectation, and continual hatred is the fruit of all the violence on both sides, which ought to surprise nobody.
Isn'the acknowledging the "good" he done just doing things on his terms? i.e. I'm gonna be directly and indirectly involved in bombings, shootings and beatings, then once I've had enough of doing that, I'll go about it the acceptable way. The way that most of the people I've killed tried to do it from the start
If it wasn't him it would have been someone else carrying out all those hateful acts. The difference is who's to say that whoever that other person was would have looked to engage in the peace process? Obviously we'll never know the answer but at least that was a good thing he did. Again I'm not sure it will ever absolve him of all he was responsible for but even bad people can do good things.
Every death is, in some way, a tragedy, including those with which Martin McGuinness was associated during the Troubles, but also his own.
I hold no truck with the IRA, or any other terrorist organisation, but, in any conflict resolution with such groups, it is necessary to talk with men of violence. It is equally necessary that those with whom you talk can bring their colleagues with them away from the bullets and bombs to the ballot box. In this McGuinness (and Adams) were hugely successful, and across the world you see other similar groups attempt to mimic their success. With the loss of David Ervine, the loyalist terrorists lost their only hope of a similar leader.
I don't have to like people to be able and willing to work with them (though the evidence suggests that McGuinness was personally likeable), it's the result that matters.
I will say RIP, because in my mind that is associated with others living in peace. The truth is that Northern Ireland can little afford to lose him, as with Ian Paisley (and who would have thought in the 1980s and 1990s that that might be the case), particularly with the additional pressures of today's politics.
Good to hear your thoughts on this, being as you are Northern Irish and still live there.
Pretty much as I expected on here. a Mixture of well thought commentary vs lynchmob.com
As a person who grew up in the midst of the troubles, and have been impacted by the effects of both sides of the paramilitary sects and religious fiefdoms, I struggle to reconcile the respect that Ian Paisley and Martin McGuinness both garnered as a result of them just "growing up" to recognise the chaos they created or helped to maintain.
I hold them both and their unionist, republican and their british government cohorts responsible for exacerbating and extending the longevity of the troubles, and directly resulting in the loss of life on all sides.
That said, they did eventually come along with the likes of John Hume and David Irvine (a man who fell for the sectarian rhetoric but quickly realised that those in power only wanted to remain in power, and not change) and have created a new life for the people in Ireland and Britain.
Northern Ireland is a better place to live in now. It is still a beautiful country, and for my nieces and nephews, still living there, they dont experience the level of bigotry and sectarianism that I have, and have been able to have a life without grenades, bomb threats and intimidation. However the current democracy is a committee designed omnishambles, and we need to move forward to make it better. We will not tdo that until all of the historic figures are long gone.
Whatever Ian and Martin belived in terms of afterlife, I fully expect them to be together. Rest
Every death is, in some way, a tragedy, including those with which Martin McGuinness was associated during the Troubles, but also his own.
I hold no truck with the IRA, or any other terrorist organisation, but, in any conflict resolution with such groups, it is necessary to talk with men of violence. It is equally necessary that those with whom you talk can bring their colleagues with them away from the bullets and bombs to the ballot box. In this McGuinness (and Adams) were hugely successful, and across the world you see other similar groups attempt to mimic their success. With the loss of David Ervine, the loyalist terrorists lost their only hope of a similar leader.
I don't have to like people to be able and willing to work with them (though the evidence suggests that McGuinness was personally likeable), it's the result that matters.
I will say RIP, because in my mind that is associated with others living in peace. The truth is that Northern Ireland can little afford to lose him, as with Ian Paisley (and who would have thought in the 1980s and 1990s that that might be the case), particularly with the additional pressures of today's politics.
Good to hear your thoughts on this, being as you are Northern Irish and still live there.
I think that should be the definitive post on this matter.
Used to know a guy years ago whose sister was badly injured in the Birmingham pub bombing. Lost touch now, but I know if she is still alive, she'll be toasting his death this morning. Blowing up civilians in a pub to "free" Ireland. Psychos. McGuiness never uttered one word of remorse even after the implementation of the peace process. Cowardly scum, and that applies to all sectarian killers in NI whatever their "side". Rot in hell.
Isn'the acknowledging the "good" he done just doing things on his terms? i.e. I'm gonna be directly and indirectly involved in bombings, shootings and beatings, then once I've had enough of doing that, I'll go about it the acceptable way. The way that most of the people I've killed tried to do it from the start
If it wasn't him it would have been someone else carrying out all those hateful acts. The difference is who's to say that whoever that other person was would have looked to engage in the peace process? Obviously we'll never know the answer but at least that was a good thing he did. Again I'm not sure it will ever absolve him of all he was responsible for but even bad people can do good things.
Every death is, in some way, a tragedy, including those with which Martin McGuinness was associated during the Troubles, but also his own.
I hold no truck with the IRA, or any other terrorist organisation, but, in any conflict resolution with such groups, it is necessary to talk with men of violence. It is equally necessary that those with whom you talk can bring their colleagues with them away from the bullets and bombs to the ballot box. In this McGuinness (and Adams) were hugely successful, and across the world you see other similar groups attempt to mimic their success. With the loss of David Ervine, the loyalist terrorists lost their only hope of a similar leader.
I don't have to like people to be able and willing to work with them (though the evidence suggests that McGuinness was personally likeable), it's the result that matters.
I will say RIP, because in my mind that is associated with others living in peace. The truth is that Northern Ireland can little afford to lose him, as with Ian Paisley (and who would have thought in the 1980s and 1990s that that might be the case), particularly with the additional pressures of today's politics.
Good to hear your thoughts on this, being as you are Northern Irish and still live there.
I think that should be the definitive post on this matter.
Yes and no - the peace process and political solution is for the people of Northern Ireland - the terrorism affected the whole of the British Isles. Someone from Woolwich, Warrington, Guildford, Birmingham et al have a valid opinion.
He was instrumental in the death and torture of many innocent people, and he was also instrumental in bringing that death and torture to an end. As others have said - two lives.
Pretty much as I expected on here. a Mixture of well thought commentary vs lynchmob.com
As a person who grew up in the midst of the troubles, and have been impacted by the effects of both sides of the paramilitary sects and religious fiefdoms, I struggle to reconcile the respect that Ian Paisley and Martin McGuinness both garnered as a result of them just "growing up" to recognise the chaos they created or helped to maintain.
I hold them both and their unionist, republican and their british government cohorts responsible for exacerbating and extending the longevity of the troubles, and directly resulting in the loss of life on all sides.
That said, they did eventually come along with the likes of John Hume and David Irvine (a man who fell for the sectarian rhetoric but quickly realised that those in power only wanted to remain in power, and not change) and have created a new life for the people in Ireland and Britain.
Northern Ireland is a better place to live in now. It is still a beautiful country, and for my nieces and nephews, still living there, they dont experience the level of bigotry and sectarianism that I have, and have been able to have a life without grenades, bomb threats and intimidation. However the current democracy is a committee designed omnishambles, and we need to move forward to make it better. We will not tdo that until all of the historic figures are long gone.
Whatever Ian and Martin belived in terms of afterlife, I fully expect them to be together. Rest
"We see things as we are , not as they are" - Anaïs Nin
The "troubles" in Ireland were complex at best and as with many conflicts riddled with contradiction and historical perspective. Appalling acts were carried out by many people and from all sides. Like many others today , I face the tension of being appalled by violence against the people, whatever its source ; whilst admiring the courage it took for people on all sides to choose the path of peace and reconciliation.
Heard an interview with a guy this morning whose son was murdered by an IRA bombing. He has since gone on through talks and the peace process to form what he describes as an amiable friendship with McGuinness and was (with mixed emotions) saddened by his death.
Pretty much as I expected on here. a Mixture of well thought commentary vs lynchmob.com
As a person who grew up in the midst of the troubles, and have been impacted by the effects of both sides of the paramilitary sects and religious fiefdoms, I struggle to reconcile the respect that Ian Paisley and Martin McGuinness both garnered as a result of them just "growing up" to recognise the chaos they created or helped to maintain.
I hold them both and their unionist, republican and their british government cohorts responsible for exacerbating and extending the longevity of the troubles, and directly resulting in the loss of life on all sides.
That said, they did eventually come along with the likes of John Hume and David Irvine (a man who fell for the sectarian rhetoric but quickly realised that those in power only wanted to remain in power, and not change) and have created a new life for the people in Ireland and Britain.
Northern Ireland is a better place to live in now. It is still a beautiful country, and for my nieces and nephews, still living there, they dont experience the level of bigotry and sectarianism that I have, and have been able to have a life without grenades, bomb threats and intimidation. However the current democracy is a committee designed omnishambles, and we need to move forward to make it better. We will not tdo that until all of the historic figures are long gone.
Whatever Ian and Martin belived in terms of afterlife, I fully expect them to be together. Rest
All this twaddle about "helping the peace process". The IRA had become so infiltrated, they were losing and they damn well knew it. McGuinness & Adams knew the game was up and imprisonment was on the cards, so took the cowards way out and done a deal.
As an ex-squaddie with tours of NI under my belt, I'll be having a drink tonight to celebrate the demise of this vermin.
Maybe the authorities should hide his body and see how his friends & family like it?
Heard an interview with a guy this morning whose son was murdered by an IRA bombing. He has since gone on through talks and the peace process to form what he describes as an amiable friendship with McGuinness and was (with mixed emotions) saddened by his death.
He's a better man than me
If it's the bloke I think it is, yesterday was the 24th anniversary of his sons and another young lads death.
This kind of act was "the sharp end of the IRA" as Machine Gun Marty once put it.
Mr Tatters spent his teenage years serving in NI. He lost a friend - he was shot dead by the IRA. All I know is that thanks to McGuiness he is still affected by his time there today.
No emotion here, no anger, no rejoicing no relief.
Twenty nine years ago last Sunday since a good friend and comrade Derek Woods was killed on the Andersontown Road along with David Howes, both in my regiment. I was young then and still feel as young now but events catch up with us all in the end. I still cant work the whole NI thing out and gave up trying a long time ago.
Like all of the attacks/murders during 'the troubles', that was an horrific event Clive. I guess what made it even worse (in the mind) was that it was captured on TV.
I had only been serving 3 years at the time but it had a big impact on me. Apparently they were doing a 'handover' and were on an area familiarisation and took a wrong turn. Is that correct mate?
No emotion here, no anger, no rejoicing no relief.
Twenty nine years ago last Sunday since a good friend and comrade Derek Woods was killed on the Andersontown Road along with David Howes, both in my regiment. I was young then and still feel as young now but events catch up with us all in the end. I still cant work the whole NI thing out and gave up trying a long time ago.
Like all of the attacks/murders during 'the troubles', that was an horrific event Clive. I guess what made it even worse (in the mind) was that it was captured on TV.
I had only been serving 3 years at the time but it had a big impact on me. Apparently they were doing a 'handover' and were on an area familiarisation and took a wrong turn. Is that correct mate?
During that funeral?
Lynched, stripped naked and executed in the street.
No emotion here, no anger, no rejoicing no relief.
Twenty nine years ago last Sunday since a good friend and comrade Derek Woods was killed on the Andersontown Road along with David Howes, both in my regiment. I was young then and still feel as young now but events catch up with us all in the end. I still cant work the whole NI thing out and gave up trying a long time ago.
Like all of the attacks/murders during 'the troubles', that was an horrific event Clive. I guess what made it even worse (in the mind) was that it was captured on TV.
I had only been serving 3 years at the time but it had a big impact on me. Apparently they were doing a 'handover' and were on an area familiarisation and took a wrong turn. Is that correct mate?
During that funeral?
Lynched, stripped naked and executed in the street.
No emotion here, no anger, no rejoicing no relief.
Twenty nine years ago last Sunday since a good friend and comrade Derek Woods was killed on the Andersontown Road along with David Howes, both in my regiment. I was young then and still feel as young now but events catch up with us all in the end. I still cant work the whole NI thing out and gave up trying a long time ago.
Like all of the attacks/murders during 'the troubles', that was an horrific event Clive. I guess what made it even worse (in the mind) was that it was captured on TV.
I had only been serving 3 years at the time but it had a big impact on me. Apparently they were doing a 'handover' and were on an area familiarisation and took a wrong turn. Is that correct mate?
Yep pretty much, 14 Int Bde if you remember those days, I have always blamed Michael Stone as much for chucking grenades around in Milltown Cem a few days earlier.
I joined in Feb 85 (the day after the Spurs replay at the Valley) and Derek was one of permenant staff. We stayed in touch and I was attached to 1/RGJ when he was killed. I occassionally lay a wreath on behalf of 14 Int at David Howes grave in Bedfordshire though ot all seems a lifetime ago now. My son wouldnt even know who the IRA were!
i would have had a lot more time for him if he had acknowledged his wrongdoings before accepting the acclaim he had later in his "career" ...well i dont know too much about Catholicism but if he didnt confess and receive absolution then its purgatory for him
No emotion here, no anger, no rejoicing no relief.
Twenty nine years ago last Sunday since a good friend and comrade Derek Woods was killed on the Andersontown Road along with David Howes, both in my regiment. I was young then and still feel as young now but events catch up with us all in the end. I still cant work the whole NI thing out and gave up trying a long time ago.
Like all of the attacks/murders during 'the troubles', that was an horrific event Clive. I guess what made it even worse (in the mind) was that it was captured on TV.
I had only been serving 3 years at the time but it had a big impact on me. Apparently they were doing a 'handover' and were on an area familiarisation and took a wrong turn. Is that correct mate?
Yep pretty much, 14 Int Bde if you remember those days, I have always blamed Michael Stone as much for chucking grenades around in Milltown Cem a few days earlier.
I joined in Feb 85 (the day after the Spurs replay at the Valley) and Derek was one of permenant staff. We stayed in touch and I was attached to 1/RGJ when he was killed. I occassionally lay a wreath on behalf of 14 Int at David Howes grave in Bedfordshire though ot all seems a lifetime ago now. My son wouldnt even know who the IRA were!
Ain't that true though.
My Grandmother never recovered from the death at the hands of the IRA (or its precursor) in 1919 (nineteen fecking nineteen) of her oldest brother. Charlie was out of work in South East London, so joined the army. Shot aged 19.
Comments
The best (hindsight) solution would have been to start with the peace process of course, not end with it.
In Ireland we still have the dregs of colonialism and imperialism playing out, with peace at risk because of Brexit. The republicans are from the same place as many groups who have been involved in violent political struggle and it is shocking that we as mankind can't find another way to solve problems.
For me I really don't like nationalists of any type, and I hold an Irish passport, but then again if the choice is between nationalism or colonialism I would probably choose nationalism.
Those who have lost people, and to an extent it is all of us, are brave if they can reconcile, but reconciliation is not an expectation, and continual hatred is the fruit of all the violence on both sides, which ought to surprise nobody.
As a person who grew up in the midst of the troubles, and have been impacted by the effects of both sides of the paramilitary sects and religious fiefdoms, I struggle to reconcile the respect that Ian Paisley and Martin McGuinness both garnered as a result of them just "growing up" to recognise the chaos they created or helped to maintain.
I hold them both and their unionist, republican and their british government cohorts responsible for exacerbating and extending the longevity of the troubles, and directly resulting in the loss of life on all sides.
That said, they did eventually come along with the likes of John Hume and David Irvine (a man who fell for the sectarian rhetoric but quickly realised that those in power only wanted to remain in power, and not change) and have created a new life for the people in Ireland and Britain.
Northern Ireland is a better place to live in now. It is still a beautiful country, and for my nieces and nephews, still living there, they dont experience the level of bigotry and sectarianism that I have, and have been able to have a life without grenades, bomb threats and intimidation. However the current democracy is a committee designed omnishambles, and we need to move forward to make it better. We will not tdo that until all of the historic figures are long gone.
Whatever Ian and Martin belived in terms of afterlife, I fully expect them to be together. Rest
McGuiness never uttered one word of remorse even after the implementation of the peace process. Cowardly scum, and that applies to all sectarian killers in NI whatever their "side".
Rot in hell.
He was instrumental in the death and torture of many innocent people, and he was also instrumental in bringing that death and torture to an end. As others have said - two lives.
The "troubles" in Ireland were complex at best and as with many conflicts riddled with contradiction and historical perspective. Appalling acts were carried out by many people and from all sides. Like many others today , I face the tension of being appalled by violence against the people, whatever its source ; whilst admiring the courage it took for people on all sides to choose the path of peace and reconciliation.
He's a better man than me
I'll just say what Alan Partridge said. "Looks like a Clown without makeup". Or was that Gerry Adams
As an ex-squaddie with tours of NI under my belt, I'll be having a drink tonight to celebrate the demise of this vermin.
Maybe the authorities should hide his body and see how his friends & family like it?
This kind of act was "the sharp end of the IRA" as Machine Gun Marty once put it.
I had only been serving 3 years at the time but it had a big impact on me. Apparently they were doing a 'handover' and were on an area familiarisation and took a wrong turn. Is that correct mate?
Lynched, stripped naked and executed in the street.
And I'd say the same about Paisley.
I joined in Feb 85 (the day after the Spurs replay at the Valley) and Derek was one of permenant staff. We stayed in touch and I was attached to 1/RGJ when he was killed. I occassionally lay a wreath on behalf of 14 Int at David Howes grave in Bedfordshire though ot all seems a lifetime ago now. My son wouldnt even know who the IRA were!
murderer or peacemaker ?
i would have had a lot more time for him if he had acknowledged his wrongdoings before accepting the acclaim he had later in his "career" ...well i dont know too much about Catholicism but if he didnt confess and receive absolution then its purgatory for him
My Grandmother never recovered from the death at the hands of the IRA (or its precursor) in 1919 (nineteen fecking nineteen) of her oldest brother. Charlie was out of work in South East London, so joined the army. Shot aged 19.
All those years ago.
As for McGuiness... Rot