Unless he has never, ever spoken harshly towards a male journalist, I'm not sure of the relevance of his apparent previous history of very occasionally being a bit mean to female journalists. Obviously I can see what The Independent is trying to achieve - they've made a point of referencing some genuinely sexist behaviour from Laurent Blanc in the same article to help promote their "David Moyes hates woman" agenda.
I thought the whole point of gender equality was that women and men should be treated the same. There are ample examples of managers being rude to male journalists - nobody ever suggests they should lose their job over it.
Genuinely confused - is the suggestion that he wouldn't have reprimanded a male journalist who had pursued the same line of questioning, or that he shouldn't speak to a female reporter like that, regardless of how we would address a male reporter? Does anyone actually think that there was an actual threat of violence, a genuine possibility that Moyes might actually strike the BBC journo next time she was perceived to have stepped out of line?
This is so obviously the media creating a story for the sake of having a story and they'll doubtless drag it out for a couple more days - "Germaine Greer has called for David Moyes to be chemically castrated", "Kerry Katona has claimed that the scandal-hit Sunderland manager once called her a stupid fat cow", etc, etc. Feel sorry for Vicki Sparks - no doubt worked extremely hard to build her career and will undoubtedly be treated with an element of suspicion when she's going about her business from now on.
I apologize because I did that "here's a link" think and didn't write around it with my thoughts or any context. Regarding what he has done or has not done with male journalists, I don't know. But your last paragraph, along with the Indy article, highlights the difficulty women have: if they speak up, they risk professional repercussions--either intentional or not.
I'm about to fall into that trap of white middle class dude talking about sexism. Also, the below does not necessarily apply to Moyes. One thing I've consistently heard women say is, "when it's sexism, you know it." That's not to say what happened here is sexism, but I thought of that when reading the author's account in the Indy article. And the problem is, I imagine, that women want to advance in journalism and in the game, and to be treated equally (which also means not being threatened because of their gender), have to ask themselves do they laugh along, or not say anything, or pretend things didn't happen because they know that not doing those things could seriously impact their career? The reporter here laughs along even though what Moyes says isn't particularly funny (which is not necessarily a sign of sexism unto itself, and bad jokes aren't a crime, because if they were I'd be in the type of Maximum security facility that does not let you see sunlight).
I know this is all a bit nebulous. What I'm trying to get at is that sexism still very much exists in the game, and just how to handle, let alone the acts themselves, must be a huge difficulty for women.
Ridiculous... Why are people still talking about this non-event? What silly times we live in!
The blather about this relative non-event is also serving to damage the cause of those who detest actual, harmful prejudice, so as usual good sense is losing out to what makes a Good Story
"He shouldn't have said that but why the hell does it make a difference if shes a woman. Would it have been OK if he said it to a bloke then?"
- Miss LuckyReds
I must say, it's a bit embarassing that so many are leaping to the defence of the woman because of just that.. she's a woman.
That's the opposite of equality and harks back to an era when the "poor little women" couldn't voice their own opinions. That's not today.
If it came out that she felt uncomfortable and it was dismissed because of her gender, or that the reason she got that response was because of her gender, that's when it's time to complain. But that didn't happen. There was laughter from both parties and she didn't feel the need the complain either.
This is simply an incredibly unlikeable personality combined with an idiotic comment. Nothing more, nothing less.
there used to be a get out clause for men using bad or offensive language at work, it was called 'industrial language' .. stresses and strains, the heat of the moment, foul language spoken in haste was often excused in demanding circumstances. I suspect that PC niceties have done away with this 'get out clause' ..
If a woman wants to get involved in a media role in the macho world of professional MALE sports then she should really expect now and again to get chastised after rubbing a bad tempered player or manager up the wrong way, especially one who's club is doing badly or after a particularly horrendous performance on the field of play .. Nothing would have been said, little fuss would have been made if Moyes had made the same comments to a male 'journalist' or commentator .. If women truly want equality then the powers that be should resort to using another old maxim .. 'what's sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander'
The Crazy world of football 2017. He has apologised, she has accepted. The FA decide to wade in. Meanwhile they do Feck all about Orient.
What can the FA do about Orient? Isn't it the EFL's responsibilty.
The Football Association, also known simply as the FA, is the governing body of association football in England, and the Crown dependencies of Jersey, Guernsey, and the Isle of Man. Formed in 1863, it is the oldest football association in the world and is responsible for overseeing all aspects of the amateur and professional game in its territory.
there used to be a get out clause for men using bad or offensive language at work, it was called 'industrial language' .. stresses and strains, the heat of the moment, foul language spoken in haste was often excused in demanding circumstances. I suspect that PC niceties have done away with this 'get out clause' ..
If a woman wants to get involved in a media role in the macho world of professional MALE sports then she should really expect now and again to get chastised after rubbing a bad tempered player or manager up the wrong way, especially one who's club is doing badly or after a particularly horrendous performance on the field of play .. Nothing would have been said, little fuss would have been made if Moyes had made the same comments to a male 'journalist' or commentator .. If women truly want equality then the powers that be should resort to using another old maxim .. 'what's sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander'
I disagree. If the FA feel he should be charged with bringing the game into disrepute. Then I think it made little difference whether he "threatened" to slap a man or a woman.
there used to be a get out clause for men using bad or offensive language at work, it was called 'industrial language' .. stresses and strains, the heat of the moment, foul language spoken in haste was often excused in demanding circumstances. I suspect that PC niceties have done away with this 'get out clause' ..
If a woman wants to get involved in a media role in the macho world of professional MALE sports then she should really expect now and again to get chastised after rubbing a bad tempered player or manager up the wrong way, especially one who's club is doing badly or after a particularly horrendous performance on the field of play .. Nothing would have been said, little fuss would have been made if Moyes had made the same comments to a male 'journalist' or commentator .. If women truly want equality then the powers that be should resort to using another old maxim .. 'what's sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander'
Cool. Um, that's not a thing anymore I hope. Hopefully now if you say something sexist/racist/homophobic, it's not okay. Don't care how stressed you are. But by all means, says "fuck." I do it professionally all the time. And you know who aren't offended? Women!
The Crazy world of football 2017. He has apologised, she has accepted. The FA decide to wade in. Meanwhile they do Feck all about Orient.
What can the FA do about Orient? Isn't it the EFL's responsibilty.
The Football Association, also known simply as the FA, is the governing body of association football in England, and the Crown dependencies of Jersey, Guernsey, and the Isle of Man. Formed in 1863, it is the oldest football association in the world and is responsible for overseeing all aspects of the amateur and professional game in its territory.
You are probably right though, what can they do?
I certainly take your point, though I think the snarkiness if directed toward Iain is somewhat unfair. The way I would phrase it is, "what action has the FA taken in recent history, what precedent is there, to indicate that they could or would do something about Orient?" They didn't do anything about Portsmouth or Bolton or Blackburn or Blackpool etc. and so on.
I'm not saying that is right. I think the power they've ceded to the leagues, namely, The Greatest League in The World(TM) The English Premier League, is hugely problematic. But both the Football League (really taking its cue from the PL) and the Premier League are run as largely independent entities. I don't think that's right, I think there needs to be a shift back toward a central oversight in the game. But unfortunately, that doesn't usually happen overnight.
Lastly, no one wants what is happening to Orient to happen, but this is the kind of thing that needs to be stopped before "Winding Up" orders are issued or even threatened. There is a huge problem of clubs running at a loss in this country. And proving owners to be running clubs in a malicious or entirely irresponsible fashion is, I'd imagine, quite difficult short of, again, restructuring certain rules saying "we will only let you participate in this competition if..." And by that token, could you also cast aspersions on the Glazers who saddled Manchester United with 700m in debts?
there used to be a get out clause for men using bad or offensive language at work, it was called 'industrial language' .. stresses and strains, the heat of the moment, foul language spoken in haste was often excused in demanding circumstances. I suspect that PC niceties have done away with this 'get out clause' ..
If a woman wants to get involved in a media role in the macho world of professional MALE sports then she should really expect now and again to get chastised after rubbing a bad tempered player or manager up the wrong way, especially one who's club is doing badly or after a particularly horrendous performance on the field of play .. Nothing would have been said, little fuss would have been made if Moyes had made the same comments to a male 'journalist' or commentator .. If women truly want equality then the powers that be should resort to using another old maxim .. 'what's sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander'
I disagree. If the FA feel he should be charged with bringing the game into disrepute. Then I think it made little difference whether he "threatened" to slap a man or a woman.
we will have to disagree on this .. my whole point is that IF Moyes had made the remark to a man, the disrepute charge would probably not have been brought in the first place, it would be regarded as 'banter' albeit not of the pleasant variety and would have been waved off as 'man talk' .. the fact that he made the remark to a woman seems to have caused outrage to some of those of a fragile sensibility .. how dare a man say such horrible things to a 'young lady' .. and the FA were feeble enough to fall for it .. IF Moyes is banned or fined, THAT to my mind would bring the game into disrepute
there used to be a get out clause for men using bad or offensive language at work, it was called 'industrial language' .. stresses and strains, the heat of the moment, foul language spoken in haste was often excused in demanding circumstances. I suspect that PC niceties have done away with this 'get out clause' ..
If a woman wants to get involved in a media role in the macho world of professional MALE sports then she should really expect now and again to get chastised after rubbing a bad tempered player or manager up the wrong way, especially one who's club is doing badly or after a particularly horrendous performance on the field of play .. Nothing would have been said, little fuss would have been made if Moyes had made the same comments to a male 'journalist' or commentator .. If women truly want equality then the powers that be should resort to using another old maxim .. 'what's sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander'
I disagree. If the FA feel he should be charged with bringing the game into disrepute. Then I think it made little difference whether he "threatened" to slap a man or a woman.
we will have to disagree on this .. my whole point is that IF Moyes had made the remark to a man, the disrepute charge would probably not have been brought in the first place, it would be regarded as 'banter' albeit not of the pleasant variety and would have been waved off as 'man talk' .. the fact that he made the remark to a woman seems to have caused outrage to some of those of a fragile sensibility .. how dare a man say such horrible things to a 'young lady' .. and the FA were feeble enough to fall for it .. IF Moyes is banned or fined, THAT to my mind would bring the game into disrepute
Indeed. How dare he.
You talk about him saying it to a man, but that doesn't make any sense. He said "even though you're a woman you could still get a slap." Which is a specific remark, not a generic one. It directly brought her gender into the equation.
If he had said something like "I'll punch you if you annoy me again" to a male reporter that would still be bang out of order. Just less misogynistic and thus less newsworthy.
Comments
I'm about to fall into that trap of white middle class dude talking about sexism. Also, the below does not necessarily apply to Moyes. One thing I've consistently heard women say is, "when it's sexism, you know it." That's not to say what happened here is sexism, but I thought of that when reading the author's account in the Indy article. And the problem is, I imagine, that women want to advance in journalism and in the game, and to be treated equally (which also means not being threatened because of their gender), have to ask themselves do they laugh along, or not say anything, or pretend things didn't happen because they know that not doing those things could seriously impact their career? The reporter here laughs along even though what Moyes says isn't particularly funny (which is not necessarily a sign of sexism unto itself, and bad jokes aren't a crime, because if they were I'd be in the type of Maximum security facility that does not let you see sunlight).
I know this is all a bit nebulous. What I'm trying to get at is that sexism still very much exists in the game, and just how to handle, let alone the acts themselves, must be a huge difficulty for women.
That's the opposite of equality and harks back to an era when the "poor little women" couldn't voice their own opinions. That's not today.
If it came out that she felt uncomfortable and it was dismissed because of her gender, or that the reason she got that response was because of her gender, that's when it's time to complain. But that didn't happen. There was laughter from both parties and she didn't feel the need the complain either.
This is simply an incredibly unlikeable personality combined with an idiotic comment. Nothing more, nothing less.
http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/39709322
He has apologised, she has accepted.
The FA decide to wade in.
Meanwhile they do Feck all about Orient.
I suspect that PC niceties have done away with this 'get out clause' ..
If a woman wants to get involved in a media role in the macho world of professional MALE sports then she should really expect now and again to get chastised after rubbing a bad tempered player or manager up the wrong way, especially one who's club is doing badly or after a particularly horrendous performance on the field of play ..
Nothing would have been said, little fuss would have been made if Moyes had made the same comments to a male 'journalist' or commentator ..
If women truly want equality then the powers that be should resort to using another old maxim .. 'what's sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander'
You are probably right though, what can they do?
I'm not saying that is right. I think the power they've ceded to the leagues, namely, The Greatest League in The World(TM) The English Premier League, is hugely problematic. But both the Football League (really taking its cue from the PL) and the Premier League are run as largely independent entities. I don't think that's right, I think there needs to be a shift back toward a central oversight in the game. But unfortunately, that doesn't usually happen overnight.
Lastly, no one wants what is happening to Orient to happen, but this is the kind of thing that needs to be stopped before "Winding Up" orders are issued or even threatened. There is a huge problem of clubs running at a loss in this country. And proving owners to be running clubs in a malicious or entirely irresponsible fashion is, I'd imagine, quite difficult short of, again, restructuring certain rules saying "we will only let you participate in this competition if..." And by that token, could you also cast aspersions on the Glazers who saddled Manchester United with 700m in debts?
the fact that he made the remark to a woman seems to have caused outrage to some of those of a fragile sensibility .. how dare a man say such horrible things to a 'young lady' .. and the FA were feeble enough to fall for it .. IF Moyes is banned or fined, THAT to my mind would bring the game into disrepute
You talk about him saying it to a man, but that doesn't make any sense. He said "even though you're a woman you could still get a slap." Which is a specific remark, not a generic one. It directly brought her gender into the equation.
If he had said something like "I'll punch you if you annoy me again" to a male reporter that would still be bang out of order. Just less misogynistic and thus less newsworthy.
Curbs 16/1