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Pretty brutal Czech punishment for a ref who got it wrong.

Thought this might be of wider interest. This was from a game I was at on Sunday, and it's worth knowing the context:

The big Prague derby. Slavia, newly resurgent, powered by shadowy Chinese money, need to win to regain the top spot from Viktoria Plzen. Sparta, in 3rd place are a long way behind and weakened by injury. Full house, plenty of fan atmosphere (continental style). Football dull as dishwater, but I told my buddy Vincent (a Spartan) at half time that I thought Sparta could sneak something here. Sure enough on 81 mins after another driving run through the heart of Slavia's defence by Sparta's 18 year old central midfielder Michal Sacek (I predict you will hear more of him), they took the lead in front of their ecstatic Ultras (or knobheads, as I would prefer to call them) Slavia had hardly managed a shot on goal, so I thought Sparta had it in the bag. And then in injury time (and there is less of that out here), this happened

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdXf85XQIck

We were at the opposite end of the stadium so to us it sort of looked like a penalty. But clearly on video that isn't the case, and the ref should not have fallen for it.

But yesterday, I was pretty startled to hear that the Czech Football Asssociation had decreed that this -and just this - was a mistake which warranted the ref getting a 3 match suspension!!!

A further context is that there is widespread talk of bribed referees in the Czech game, although I think only two proven cases. What are the Czech FA saying here? He made a mistake. Yes, it was a key game, a decision which may change the course of the title. And it was on live TV. (albeit on cable with a pitiful live audience). A mistake is a mistake, isn't it? Or if they suspect it was a "deliberate" mistake, they bloody well need to have the evidence.

My conclusion? Video playback for the 4th official needed. Of course. How many more times before they get it?
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Comments

  • I'm well into this story Prague, but slightly confused by the 17 minutes of crowd action in that video...
  • Action taken against the referee seems not to differ too much from that which happens over here. Referee makes mistake...widely shown on TV...gets "rested" (ie taken off of his next scheduled Prem game) or given a game at the next level down.

    The interesting part for me was the intense atmosphere (from the video clip) and almost threatening. Is that the general case Prague?
  • so many young people, organised and uniformed in a quasi military fashion .. is this indicative of a new nation forming a national identity for itself after centuries of foreign domination and forced 'partnerships' ?
  • Funnily enough, my reaction to the replay was that the defender deliberately left his leg trailing behind him so the forward would run into it.
  • it was a deliberate trip .. what's the problem ?
  • Looks like a foul to me.
  • Blimey. Just goes to show how difficult the job is.

    Having viewed it, I see the Slavia player as running into the defender after pushing the ball too far forward, and to the left. I don't see the defender doing more than standing his ground.

    So if a majority think thats a foul, it makes the Czech FA decision even worse.

  • The way I see it, the defender unnecessarily waived his leg out in a token tackle, giving the forward a golden opportunity to fall over said leg. A penalty for me.
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  • It's a dive. The defender pulls out of it but the attacker gets close enough to make it look like a foul. The defender asked for trouble, and I don't blame the ref, but it was a desperate attempt by the attacker to win a penalty and it worked.
  • Doesn't matter where the defender's leg is, the forward knock the ball to the left of the defender and then runs straight into him, he's within the width of the defender's shoulders so there's no way the leg position would make any difference to the fact they were always going to collide due to the attacker running straight at the defender.

    My issue with this sort of foul is that even if the defender is at fault, it's obstruction and an indirect free kick. When was the last time any of you saw an indirect free-kick for obstruction given in the prem? I had to double check the rule still existed because premiership referees always give a penalty for clear cases of obstruction.
  • Doesn't matter where the defender's leg is, the forward knock the ball to the left of the defender and then runs straight into him, he's within the width of the defender's shoulders so there's no way the leg position would make any difference to the fact they were always going to collide due to the attacker running straight at the defender.

    My issue with this sort of foul is that even if the defender is at fault, it's obstruction and an indirect free kick. When was the last time any of you saw an indirect free-kick for obstruction given in the prem? I had to double check the rule still existed because premiership referees always give a penalty for clear cases of obstruction.

    Cant be obstruction..law has changed...obstruction is now only when no contact is made. Law 12, pages 81/82
  • so many young people, organised and uniformed in a quasi military fashion .. is this indicative of a new nation forming a national identity for itself after centuries of foreign domination and forced 'partnerships' ?

    In your dreams :-)

    But seriously,in fact I think you will find this sort of thing all across Europe, and as a Brit I am not much impressed by it as a way of supporting the team.

    When the Slavia fans hold up their display of "Spolu" (together), this was actually organised by the Club. On 13 minutes the match day announcer told them to get ready for the display on exactly 15 minutes, for one minute, and the message was put on the big screen. So on 15 minutes they did as they were told. And I so wanted Sparta to score while that display was up. Because how does this display encourage the team, or have anything to do with what is actually happening on the pitch? I have the same problem with the organised chanting by the 'leader' with the loudspeaker. Yes they keep up a constant barrage of chanting, but they don't spontaneously engage with events on the pitch. And yes they become part of the spectacle and add colour, but this only works in the biggest games. The average Czech game is quarter full and the crowd generally just sit around making good cynical jokes while a few kids practice at being 'ultras'. The Sparta fans are knobheads because they let off flares and detonators even when their team is doing OK, and at one point we were all coughing and spluttering because of the smoke, so how does that help their team, which was attacking that end? And as for setting fire to a few sundry seats..pathetic. Viktoria's fans don't do that when they go away, another reason why I like them.

  • PeterGage said:

    Doesn't matter where the defender's leg is, the forward knock the ball to the left of the defender and then runs straight into him, he's within the width of the defender's shoulders so there's no way the leg position would make any difference to the fact they were always going to collide due to the attacker running straight at the defender.

    My issue with this sort of foul is that even if the defender is at fault, it's obstruction and an indirect free kick. When was the last time any of you saw an indirect free-kick for obstruction given in the prem? I had to double check the rule still existed because premiership referees always give a penalty for clear cases of obstruction.

    Cant be obstruction..law has changed...obstruction is now only when no contact is made. Law 12, pages 81/82
    I am struggling to visualise what that looks like. Surely there is bound to be contact? (But I guess I should read the law, forgive me for not doing so before posting)

  • Interesting for a couple of reasons:-

    - If it's a dive, then the person being banned should be the player, not the ref.
    - Peter, as a qualified ref, your point of view is interesting. You say ..."giving the forward a golden opportunity to fall over said leg. A penalty for me". This almost suggests that as a ref you would have known that there was no intent (on the basis the forward "fell over"), but you would still have a awarded a penalty?
  • edited April 2017
    cafcfan said:

    Looks like a foul to me. But a foul in a sort of "I'm doing this deliberately to get Christmas off Danny Mills kind of way".

    Speak of the devil:

    "It is all about discipline, dedication and desire," Mills told BBC Radio 5 live's Monday Night Club.

    "It appears Luke Shaw isn't giving it his all. He has all the ability in the world but it all comes down to attitude.

    "Even if he has been injured, there is no excuse not to keep the weight off or to be as fit as you possibly can be and look like you are making the biggest effort ever. It is your job.

    "There is no excuse whatsoever."

    ---

    Incidentally, blatant dive. As in many of those incidents, the player is throwing himself down histrionically before there is any contact.
  • Interesting for a couple of reasons:-

    - If it's a dive, then the person being banned should be the player, not the ref.
    - Peter, as a qualified ref, your point of view is interesting. You say ..."giving the forward a golden opportunity to fall over said leg. A penalty for me". This almost suggests that as a ref you would have known that there was no intent (on the basis the forward "fell over"), but you would still have a awarded a penalty?

    I am trying to say that the defender had no chance to win the ball in the situation (as I interpreted it on the video), yet he hung his foot/leg out to dry and thus made it much easier for the attacker to "win" a penalty.

    Had the defender not made a positive move (ie hung out his leg), then the attacker could be seen as running into a static defender and no penalty would have been awarded.....just my personal view
  • PeterGage said:

    Doesn't matter where the defender's leg is, the forward knock the ball to the left of the defender and then runs straight into him, he's within the width of the defender's shoulders so there's no way the leg position would make any difference to the fact they were always going to collide due to the attacker running straight at the defender.

    My issue with this sort of foul is that even if the defender is at fault, it's obstruction and an indirect free kick. When was the last time any of you saw an indirect free-kick for obstruction given in the prem? I had to double check the rule still existed because premiership referees always give a penalty for clear cases of obstruction.

    Cant be obstruction..law has changed...obstruction is now only when no contact is made. Law 12, pages 81/82
    I am struggling to visualise what that looks like. Surely there is bound to be contact? (But I guess I should read the law, forgive me for not doing so before posting)

    A player can be obstructing his opponent from reaching the ball) by putting his body between player and ball without any attempt to play said ball (providing the ball is not within "playing distance", in which case it will be seen as "shielding" the ball
  • PeterGage said:

    Doesn't matter where the defender's leg is, the forward knock the ball to the left of the defender and then runs straight into him, he's within the width of the defender's shoulders so there's no way the leg position would make any difference to the fact they were always going to collide due to the attacker running straight at the defender.

    My issue with this sort of foul is that even if the defender is at fault, it's obstruction and an indirect free kick. When was the last time any of you saw an indirect free-kick for obstruction given in the prem? I had to double check the rule still existed because premiership referees always give a penalty for clear cases of obstruction.

    Cant be obstruction..law has changed...obstruction is now only when no contact is made. Law 12, pages 81/82
    I am struggling to visualise what that looks like. Surely there is bound to be contact? (But I guess I should read the law, forgive me for not doing so before posting)

    Have to agree, no wonder we never see obstruction given, it's been made an almost impossible offence to commit. This smacks of the rules being changed to match the reality of what's being given in actual games*. I.e. referees continually give fouls and direct free kicks for clear cases of obstruction. So rather than improve the officiating they've changed the rules so that what has always been obstruction is now a "body check"** and a direct free kick, and an obstruction is some mythical foul where the defender prevents the attacking moving, but never touches them in the process.

    *much like the rule, which was very clear at the time, that players couldn't be treated on the pitch, that they'd have to leave the pitch to get treatment, thus no holding up the game. It was continually and consistently mis-applied by official to the point where the rule was rewritten to match the farcical reality whereby the time is still wasted with on-pitch treatment, and then the player is forced to leave the pitch for no reason other than to unfairly penalise the injured player's team.

    **it is often, as in this case, the attacker body checking the defender, yet still managing to win a free-kick somehow.
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  • Went to watch the Prague derby once years ago. Massive hype but ended up being an awful 0-0. Saw Slavia a few times at the huge Strahov complex. What's their 'new' Eden ground like? When I was there they were building it and I worked in an office close to it. Always had a soft spot for Slavia - didn't they form originally as a debating club?
  • My guess at the change of emphasis/law (and it is only a guess) is: under the previous interpretation, a defender is likely to "body-check" or obstruct an opponent , who say is in the attacking penalty area and thus only concede an indirect free kick; a trip,push etc would concede a penalty. Both types of offence ends up with the same result (a foul on the opponent), yet the penalty is entirely different. A logical change of law to me.
  • PeterGage said:

    Interesting for a couple of reasons:-

    - If it's a dive, then the person being banned should be the player, not the ref.
    - Peter, as a qualified ref, your point of view is interesting. You say ..."giving the forward a golden opportunity to fall over said leg. A penalty for me". This almost suggests that as a ref you would have known that there was no intent (on the basis the forward "fell over"), but you would still have a awarded a penalty?

    I am trying to say that the defender had no chance to win the ball in the situation (as I interpreted it on the video), yet he hung his foot/leg out to dry and thus made it much easier for the attacker to "win" a penalty.

    Had the defender not made a positive move (ie hung out his leg), then the attacker could be seen as running into a static defender and no penalty would have been awarded.....just my personal view
    Thanks - ultimately a ref is, I suppose, reliant on the players not looking to cheat - I don't envy that position or the scrutiny they come under. In my view it was a dive - he was over before any contact was made. Therefore, the player is the issue, not the ref for having been deceived. Easy to say, but players should not be looking to "win" penalties. I blame the Germans - they started it.
  • PeterGage said:

    My guess at the change of emphasis/law (and it is only a guess) is: under the previous interpretation, a defender is likely to "body-check" or obstruct an opponent , who say is in the attacking penalty area and thus only concede an indirect free kick; a trip,push etc would concede a penalty. Both types of offence ends up with the same result (a foul on the opponent), yet the penalty is entirely different. A logical change of law to me.

    I'd say the change has had a massive negative effect. Whereby previously the officials had an "out", if there was doubt about the movement for the defender, or the way the attacker swerved into the defender after playing the ball, etc. Now the referee is left with no alternative, it is often a case of give a penalty or a dive, with many unwilling to directly call out an attacker for cheating.

    I don't see any problem with the obstruction rule as it was, other than attackers have got too good at manufacturing contact and fooling officials to the point where they didn't feel they could accurately enforce the existing law.
  • PeterGage said:

    Doesn't matter where the defender's leg is, the forward knock the ball to the left of the defender and then runs straight into him, he's within the width of the defender's shoulders so there's no way the leg position would make any difference to the fact they were always going to collide due to the attacker running straight at the defender.

    My issue with this sort of foul is that even if the defender is at fault, it's obstruction and an indirect free kick. When was the last time any of you saw an indirect free-kick for obstruction given in the prem? I had to double check the rule still existed because premiership referees always give a penalty for clear cases of obstruction.

    Cant be obstruction..law has changed...obstruction is now only when no contact is made. Law 12, pages 81/82
    I am struggling to visualise what that looks like. Surely there is bound to be contact? (But I guess I should read the law, forgive me for not doing so before posting)

    Have to agree, no wonder we never see obstruction given, it's been made an almost impossible offence to commit. This smacks of the rules being changed to match the reality of what's being given in actual games*. I.e. referees continually give fouls and direct free kicks for clear cases of obstruction. So rather than improve the officiating they've changed the rules so that what has always been obstruction is now a "body check"** and a direct free kick, and an obstruction is some mythical foul where the defender prevents the attacking moving, but never touches them in the process.

    *much like the rule, which was very clear at the time, that players couldn't be treated on the pitch, that they'd have to leave the pitch to get treatment, thus no holding up the game. It was continually and consistently mis-applied by official to the point where the rule was rewritten to match the farcical reality whereby the time is still wasted with on-pitch treatment, and then the player is forced to leave the pitch for no reason other than to unfairly penalise the injured player's team.

    **it is often, as in this case, the attacker body checking the defender, yet still managing to win a free-kick somehow.
    Are you saying the law has been rewritten for the coming season (17/18) and beyond? I have not seen any proposals or actual law changes for next season.

    The law was changed last season so that an injured player can be treated on the field of play (if the damage to the injured player is not deemed serious so delaying the restart of the game), but only if the referee cautions or sends off the opposing player who committed the foul. The logic being why should the "aggrieved" team be penalised by only having 10 players on the field of play, when the opponent has committed a serious foul (by virtue of a yellow/red card awarded). Seems logical and fair to me
  • so many young people, organised and uniformed in a quasi military fashion .. is this indicative of a new nation forming a national identity for itself after centuries of foreign domination and forced 'partnerships' ?

    No, its a football match of pub league standard played out in mostly empty stadiums, all very familiar
  • Of course its a dive.......theres a few on here who need to visit specsavers........!
  • Greenie said:

    Of course its a dive.......theres a few on here who need to visit specsavers........!

    including you if you really think he wasn't fouled .. look again at the position and movement of the defender's leg ((:>)
  • Greenie said:

    Of course its a dive.......theres a few on here who need to visit specsavers........!

    including you if you really think he wasn't fouled .. look again at the position and movement of the defender's leg ((:>)
    No mate, I assume you are on a wind up, or your blinder than Ray Charles in a tunnel........!
  • Blatant dive, the attacking player was on his way down before he touched the defender.
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