Muttley, you implicitly raise an interesting point regarding Corbyn's lack of charisma (to be fair I don't find myself desperate to take Theresa May or Tim Farron out for a pint!).
Despite media-driven impressions to the contrary, we actually have a parliamentary system in which the collection of local constituency MPs decide who should be PM, not the country. After all neither Gordon Brown or May have won a general election.
As a result we have a strange mish-mash of a Presidential-style personality-driven process (where people think they're voting for an individual leader) and a traditional local parliamentary election process.
I can't see how charisma is important, honesty and decency should count for much more. Why do people think charisma is more important - is it because he doesn't have it. It is very clever how we get manipulated and told what is important. I saw a bloke on BBC breakfast this week telling me Corbyn had no charisma and this chap seemed to me woefully short of it himself. I'm not knocking him for not having it, but why was it so important to him?
I'm not a fan of Blair either (I think he should be in prison actually) but as Blackpool has said - he won three elections so must have done some things right. He did this whilst increasing public spending, but during this time, also decreasing the deficit he inherited from the Tories. It showed that it is the growth of the economy that matters. But one thing Tories are passionate about is small government. Spending on British public services had absolutely nothing to do with the financial crisis - we all know it was caused by corrupt financial institutions! But we still allowed them to move the agenda to public services. We've knocked the bankers enough - we need them to get us back to where we were. The demons are the public servants, too many of them getting too high wages. It is a good way to test if the system can brainwash the public.
How much did it cost us to bail out the banks - £850 billion according to the national audit office - but we'll get some of that back if we let the bankers get back on with it. No lets hammer the public services instead - we can use it to get people supporting our small government principles. Use the press and the media to make people believe the problem is spending too much on public services. Make the people believe that the GLOBAL financial crisis was Labour's fault. Forget that after the crisis, they did more than a half decent job suring up the capitalist system, which was genuinely under real threat.
If it's so damn bad here how come net migration is so high? And people coming from all corners of the world. I like it here.
I agree - when you visit other countries you generally experience the best of them, and when you live in a country you generally experience the worst of it (and just occasionally the best).
But when your life is spent in another country, but with half your head and many ties back in the UK that experience balances out.
If it's so damn bad here how come net migration is so high? And people coming from all corners of the world. I like it here.
I thought it was because all immigrants get $4,000 a month in benefits and an 8 bedroom house?
Britain is still demonstrably one of the best countries in the world to live in and if you were someone fleeing a war zone, or just looking to move to a richer country, then the The UK is likely to be in your top 10 options. But, just because it is good now, doesn't mean it couldn't and shouldn't be better.
Britain is a country which is somewhat in decline. Maybe not rapid nor necessarily universal decline, but decline none-the-less. Some of that is inevitable in a post imperialist world but a lot of essential public services are seriously struggling to maintain what many would see as minimum standards. Yes you could be living in far worse places, and the UK is probably never going become a truly impoverished nation, but do you feel the future for the country is bright at the moment? I'm not sure I do.
I wish we had better quality politicians across all parties. The shadow cabinet is awful but Theresa Mays next cabinet is not exactly going to be stuffed with great promise or talent. I voted leave after much heart searching because I am fond of travelling to Europe and have several (non U.K.) friends in France and Germany.But as an island community I never felt it was a great union and I would actually like less politicians impacting directly on our affairs. Having said all that I think we are a resourceful nation with individuals with great talent just a shame they are not in politics. Perhaps a British macron will appear before 2022.!!
Parliamentary system makes it almost impossible for a Macron type revolution unfortunately.
Totally agree with you. Until we get PR or something similar we are stuck with what we've got.
Blair was as close as we got - amazing result in 1997.
Not the UK, but the Canadian system is almost identical and Justin Trudeau and his Liberal party came from a distant third in the polls two years ago to take a fairly comfortable victory on polling day. His dad was a former PM so hard to argue he is completely anti-establishment, but he has spent a good chunk of his life outside politics and is a charismatic, socially progressive leader so echoes of what Macron has done in France but within a parliamentary system.
The positive flip side of the parliamentary system is it makes it harder for a nut job like Trump to end up running the show.
I try so hard not to bite to posts like this..... But it's always the fault of those nasty Tories. Everything that people don't like about their lives is the Tories fault.
I try so hard not to bite to posts like this..... But it's always the fault of those nasty Tories. Everything that people don't like about their lives is the Tories fault.
I try so hard not to bite to posts like this..... But it's always the fault of those nasty Tories. Everything that people don't like about their lives is the Tories fault.
Its always someone else's fault.
The Tories are the masters of wrongly blaming people - they wrote the book on it The immigration issue - they are going to shame British companies by making them list all their foriegn workers! Shame! Honestly, that is the word they used! It sounds like a Nazi policy - No - Theresa May said it! Look these nasty immigrants are keeping the pay down of British workers! Your pay! Em, er.... isn't the employer the one that does that? Hasn't the government kept the wages of Civil servants down by obscene levels for years. What part did the immigrants play there? Of course the real culprits for keeping people's pay down are forgiven, because we have the monster to blame - the immigrant!
Yes, it is somebody elses fault. It's those bloody immigrants!
The government's own figures suggest fraud/people wrongly claiming benefits costs us £1.1bn a year - the bankers cost us £850bn, Errors in benefit payments costs £2.1bn. Now i'm not defending the scroungers, but where is all the vitriol focussed? They are used to hammer the vast majority of vulnerable people. Yes, it is somebody elses fault! And it is always the fault of all these scroungers!
Fact is that in most cases there has to be a balance between taking assistance from the taxpayer (if Labour get their way taking more of the money earnt by those on 80k plus) and working to improve your own situation. But you never hear about ways to help people improve their own circumstances - intiatives aimed at getting people to self help. The only conversation point is what can be got for free.
I try so hard not to bite to posts like this..... But it's always the fault of those nasty Tories. Everything that people don't like about their lives is the Tories fault.
Its always someone else's fault.
Do you not see the irony in a bunch of privately educated, independently wealthy politicians preaching about people being out of touch with the day to day struggles of life for the poorest in Britain. The same would be true for many Labour politicians.
The irony gets event stronger though when the preaching is coming from a party which has spent the last few years instigating deep funding cuts to the exactly the kind of social programmes designed to make life a bit easier for those in most in need of a helping hand.
8 July 2015: Corporation tax cut AGAIN to the lowest level among G20 countries.
"The Guardian newspaper reported this morning that the British state spends £93bn on huge subsidies and tax breaks – more than £3,500 for each UK household."
21 July 2015: Tories pass welfare reform "which include limiting tax credits to no more than two children and a further reduction in the benefit cap".
"THE Conservatives’ controversial Welfare Reform and Work Bill, which will introduce £12 billion of cuts, has been voted through the House of Commons."
Fact is that in most cases there has to be a balance between taking assistance from the taxpayer (if Labour get their way taking more of the money earnt by those on 80k plus) and working to improve your own situation. But you never hear about ways to help people improve their own circumstances - intiatives aimed at getting people to self help. The only conversation point is what can be got for free.
Labour want to take more from those who earn more than 80k.
Tories want to carry on taking more from those on less than 80k.
I know which group is best able to take the hit.
There is nothing wrong with people criticising the Tories when they are in government and life is getting worse for millions of Britons as a direct result of Tory policy. That isn't saying 'it's someone else's fault' (ironic consider the Tories and all the Tory supporters on here use this excuse whenever defending the Tories), it's rightfully blaming those responsible for destructive policies.
People who earn £80k won't be asked to pay much more! It isn't a hatred of high earners but those with the broadest shoulders need to carry a bit more weight. The idea is by growing the economy at a faster rate, those people are still better off!
Fact is that in most cases there has to be a balance between taking assistance from the taxpayer (if Labour get their way taking more of the money earnt by those on 80k plus) and working to improve your own situation. But you never hear about ways to help people improve their own circumstances - intiatives aimed at getting people to self help. The only conversation point is what can be got for free.
I don't think I;ve ever heard anyone seriously suggests the high earners should pay so people can just not look after themselves at all. It's the Labour party after all - the clue is in the name, it was built on the back of the labour movement which was about workers (not scroungers) securing a fair slice of the pie and fair working conditions.
However, if you want an example - Sure Start, a scheme designed to help disadvantaged kids and parents with the aim of getting those young lives off on the right foot. It surely stands to reason - better start in life, better chance of going on to gain the education, skills, and employment required to look after yourself in adulthood with less state assistance. The Tories have been slashing away at this programme for years though. Labour wants to reinstate it.
Those people already get hammered and take a higher rate of tax.
Why can the emphasis not be on creating jobs, creating opportunity to gain skills, creating opportunity to learn business skills. Better opportunity and availability for access to affordable loans to start a business if you have an idea that could drive growth. A business that could create more jobs and contribute to a better economy.
The local hand car wash has been set up by 5 polish guys who do a great job and are known throughout the area. Everyone uses them. Why didn't 5 locals do that instead?
Not everyone is able to do something like that - but that is what taxpayers money should help out on. We already have a benefits system - people act like it doesn't even exist
Why can the emphasis not be on creating jobs, creating opportunity to gain skills, creating opportunity to learn business skills. Better opportunity and availability for access to affordable loans to start a business if you have an idea that could drive growth. A business that could create more jobs and contribute to a better economy.
Is the Labour manifesto not about investing in our people and skills? Give people at the lower end a bit more help so they can aspire and be confident in starting their own business?
There is no doubt that this is the most left wing Labour proposal we have had for a while - socialist in so many more ways than previous years.
My mind does keep harking back to the famous old phrase of 'eventually you will run out of other people's money'.
Aside from whether people would agree with that assessment of socialism, it does beg the question of how all this stuff is going to be paid for and that's the bit that I don't see enough of.
Tax cuts for the wealthy, welfare cuts for the poor. 13 days apart. Where are the Tories priorities?
Run by me where the tax cuts for the wealthy are or have been the last 7 years or proposed going forward? I'm assuming i'd fit into your definition of wealthy and can tell you my tax has only gone one way under the conservatives and there's certainly no cut in that!
The only one I can remotely think of is IHT increase proposed and coming in, but then the tax taken in IHT has more than doubled the past 7 years (predominantly due to house price increases in the south)
I don't disagree with your point on the welfare cuts in recent years (by virtue of the fact that any cut in welfare will not hit the wealthy).
not that convinced if I'm honest about the conservative manifesto
Unfortunately my only other option is to lose £8k in tax and go back to 1974
Vote anyone other than labour...
Likewise the conservative manifesto isn't particularly convincing, as per the last 25 years for me, i'll end up having to vote for the least worse party or simply the local vote.
Friend of my mother used to work for Urs Schwarzenbach, Swiss billionaire. Owns worldwide assets including an Oxfordshire village. Lived here for decades. Ran a polo team. Pisses money up the wall but when HRMC got interested in the fact he payed less tax than most posters here, he fled back to the land of numbered bank accounts. Transfered assets to his kids, doubt they pay much tax either.
I try so hard not to bite to posts like this..... But it's always the fault of those nasty Tories. Everything that people don't like about their lives is the Tories fault.
Its always someone else's fault.
Absolute nonsense. Sometimes I like to blame the bankers...
I don't even get what the point of that tweet is tbh.
What message is it they're trying to get over? That they are a caring, sharing sort of bunch aware that not everyone has a decent standard of living? Is it aimed at softening the stance of their core support who are staring down the barrel of losing their home to pay care fees? Is it just Lynton Crosby on the wind up???
not that convinced if I'm honest about the conservative manifesto
Unfortunately my only other option is to lose £8k in tax and go back to 1974
Vote anyone other than labour...
Fair enough. You're making a decision on what you believe will be the financial effect on you personally. You're already earning multiples of the average persons salary but if that's what is important to you I understand why you think that the Tories are for you.
But don't think that you can continue getting the same levels of public services you're used to as a result of that vote. That would be ridiculously naive.
A vote for the Tories is signing up for less money spent on things like policing, prisons, the NHS, highways, transport, the armed forces, schools, border control, the environment, etc. Right through to more mundane every day areas of our public services that you may not use yet like social workers, carers, youth workers, refuse collection, libraries, OAP day centres, support for those with learning difficulties or the disabled and a 100 other areas where the Tories are cutting directly or through withdrawing financial support.
Good luck for one small example getting an EHO to inspect your local takeaway on your behalf in 2025. The more experienced staff are leaving local authorities, leaving less experienced staff struggling to fulfil the most basic levels of a statutory service and few if any coming into the profession as trainees for obvious reasons.
This picture's repeated right across the public sector and it really does seem that very few Tory supporters want to acknowledge the part their support of these policies plays in this process.
Those people already get hammered and take a higher rate of tax.
Why can the emphasis not be on creating jobs, creating opportunity to gain skills, creating opportunity to learn business skills. Better opportunity and availability for access to affordable loans to start a business if you have an idea that could drive growth. A business that could create more jobs and contribute to a better economy.
The local hand car wash has been set up by 5 polish guys who do a great job and are known throughout the area. Everyone uses them. Why didn't 5 locals do that instead?
Not everyone is able to do something like that - but that is what taxpayers money should help out on. We already have a benefits system - people act like it doesn't even exist
You do know that virtually all schemes that try to do the above have been cut to the bone or scrapped completely. To get the people who are most likely to be furthest from the job market there needs to be a series of schemes that gradually encourage/motivate people closer to work. Often the biggest barrier is self-confidence.
A few years ago I ran a place that supported disabled people back into work. We shifted our emphasis so that we could support ex-servicemen and women who had hit hard times. Most of these had PTSD and looked like they were fit and healthy and as a result were often prejudiced against. For these ex-service personnel it was not about encouraging them to get a job or to set up there own business there was a lot that needed to be done before then and support had to be there over a period of time.
We had a good relationship with the MOD and with employers (who really wanted to help) but what little financial support we had was withdrawn and we found that government projects became all about the end product (getting people into work) so it was great and lucrative if you picked up people who just needed help finding a job. But the vast majority of people need a lot of help to get anywhere near that point. Private companies set up by the government to help have cherry picked the easy targets and left the expensive low reward people to the people who really cared. A large number of the groups that cared went bust.
But this kind of support was also there for people like you and me and our families, people who had strokes who had worked and contributed every day of their life, people in construction who had had industrial injuries, people with Autism. The only thing they had in common was that they wanted to work.
If the Tories actually did create jobs and create opportunities then I would be the first to congratulate them because believe it or not I actually think that employment is the best way out of poverty but it takes more than just saying it. Sure Start and Tax credits would have been Tory policies in the past but now days they just lie.
And don't get me started on the local Tory MP who shafted the factory I ran because he ran a competitor (not for disabled people) but who was more than happy to take plaudits for our work.
a very one sided article, not too sure what to make of it. I hate the IRA but Corbyn seems to have supported the peace process and fair trials for all which in my book is right. Most of the article however seems to suggest he was a supporter of the IRA and what they were doing.
Comments
I'm not a fan of Blair either (I think he should be in prison actually) but as Blackpool has said - he won three elections so must have done some things right. He did this whilst increasing public spending, but during this time, also decreasing the deficit he inherited from the Tories. It showed that it is the growth of the economy that matters. But one thing Tories are passionate about is small government. Spending on British public services had absolutely nothing to do with the financial crisis - we all know it was caused by corrupt financial institutions! But we still allowed them to move the agenda to public services. We've knocked the bankers enough - we need them to get us back to where we were. The demons are the public servants, too many of them getting too high wages. It is a good way to test if the system can brainwash the public.
How much did it cost us to bail out the banks - £850 billion according to the national audit office - but we'll get some of that back if we let the bankers get back on with it. No lets hammer the public services instead - we can use it to get people supporting our small government principles. Use the press and the media to make people believe the problem is spending too much on public services. Make the people believe that the GLOBAL financial crisis was Labour's fault. Forget that after the crisis, they did more than a half decent job suring up the capitalist system, which was genuinely under real threat.
And we did!
The positive flip side of the parliamentary system is it makes it harder for a nut job like Trump to end up running the show.
Eff me, that tweet from the Conservative official account could be describing pretty much the entire Tory cabinet.
The irony is almost too much to bear.
Its always someone else's fault.
Yes, it is somebody elses fault. It's those bloody immigrants!
The government's own figures suggest fraud/people wrongly claiming benefits costs us £1.1bn a year - the bankers cost us £850bn, Errors in benefit payments costs £2.1bn. Now i'm not defending the scroungers, but where is all the vitriol focussed? They are used to hammer the vast majority of vulnerable people. Yes, it is somebody elses fault! And it is always the fault of all these scroungers!
Sorry it is hard not to bite posts like this!
The irony gets event stronger though when the preaching is coming from a party which has spent the last few years instigating deep funding cuts to the exactly the kind of social programmes designed to make life a bit easier for those in most in need of a helping hand.
"The Guardian newspaper reported this morning that the British state spends £93bn on huge subsidies and tax breaks – more than £3,500 for each UK household."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/budget-2015-corporation-tax-just-got-cut-again-even-though-the-uk-already-has-the-lowest-rate-in-the-10375238.html
21 July 2015: Tories pass welfare reform "which include limiting tax credits to no more than two children and a further reduction in the benefit cap".
"THE Conservatives’ controversial Welfare Reform and Work Bill, which will introduce £12 billion of cuts, has been voted through the House of Commons."
http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/labour-deeply-divided-as-welfare-reform-bill-passes-1-3836133
Tories want to carry on taking more from those on less than 80k.
I know which group is best able to take the hit.
There is nothing wrong with people criticising the Tories when they are in government and life is getting worse for millions of Britons as a direct result of Tory policy. That isn't saying 'it's someone else's fault' (ironic consider the Tories and all the Tory supporters on here use this excuse whenever defending the Tories), it's rightfully blaming those responsible for destructive policies.
However, if you want an example - Sure Start, a scheme designed to help disadvantaged kids and parents with the aim of getting those young lives off on the right foot. It surely stands to reason - better start in life, better chance of going on to gain the education, skills, and employment required to look after yourself in adulthood with less state assistance. The Tories have been slashing away at this programme for years though. Labour wants to reinstate it.
Why can the emphasis not be on creating jobs, creating opportunity to gain skills, creating opportunity to learn business skills. Better opportunity and availability for access to affordable loans to start a business if you have an idea that could drive growth. A business that could create more jobs and contribute to a better economy.
The local hand car wash has been set up by 5 polish guys who do a great job and are known throughout the area. Everyone uses them. Why didn't 5 locals do that instead?
Not everyone is able to do something like that - but that is what taxpayers money should help out on. We already have a benefits system - people act like it doesn't even exist
Unfortunately my only other option is to lose £8k in tax and go back to 1974
Vote anyone other than labour...
My mind does keep harking back to the famous old phrase of 'eventually you will run out of other people's money'.
Aside from whether people would agree with that assessment of socialism, it does beg the question of how all this stuff is going to be paid for and that's the bit that I don't see enough of.
The only one I can remotely think of is IHT increase proposed and coming in, but then the tax taken in IHT has more than doubled the past 7 years (predominantly due to house price increases in the south)
I don't disagree with your point on the welfare cuts in recent years (by virtue of the fact that any cut in welfare will not hit the wealthy). Likewise the conservative manifesto isn't particularly convincing, as per the last 25 years for me, i'll end up having to vote for the least worse party or simply the local vote.
;-)
What message is it they're trying to get over? That they are a caring, sharing sort of bunch aware that not everyone has a decent standard of living? Is it aimed at softening the stance of their core support who are staring down the barrel of losing their home to pay care fees? Is it just Lynton Crosby on the wind up???
But don't think that you can continue getting the same levels of public services you're used to as a result of that vote. That would be ridiculously naive.
A vote for the Tories is signing up for less money spent on things like policing, prisons, the NHS, highways, transport, the armed forces, schools, border control, the environment, etc. Right through to more mundane every day areas of our public services that you may not use yet like social workers, carers, youth workers, refuse collection, libraries, OAP day centres, support for those with learning difficulties or the disabled and a 100 other areas where the Tories are cutting directly or through withdrawing financial support.
Good luck for one small example getting an EHO to inspect your local takeaway on your behalf in 2025. The more experienced staff are leaving local authorities, leaving less experienced staff struggling to fulfil the most basic levels of a statutory service and few if any coming into the profession as trainees for obvious reasons.
This picture's repeated right across the public sector and it really does seem that very few Tory supporters want to acknowledge the part their support of these policies plays in this process.
A few years ago I ran a place that supported disabled people back into work. We shifted our emphasis so that we could support ex-servicemen and women who had hit hard times. Most of these had PTSD and looked like they were fit and healthy and as a result were often prejudiced against. For these ex-service personnel it was not about encouraging them to get a job or to set up there own business there was a lot that needed to be done before then and support had to be there over a period of time.
We had a good relationship with the MOD and with employers (who really wanted to help) but what little financial support we had was withdrawn and we found that government projects became all about the end product (getting people into work) so it was great and lucrative if you picked up people who just needed help finding a job. But the vast majority of people need a lot of help to get anywhere near that point. Private companies set up by the government to help have cherry picked the easy targets and left the expensive low reward people to the people who really cared. A large number of the groups that cared went bust.
But this kind of support was also there for people like you and me and our families, people who had strokes who had worked and contributed every day of their life, people in construction who had had industrial injuries, people with Autism. The only thing they had in common was that they wanted to work.
If the Tories actually did create jobs and create opportunities then I would be the first to congratulate them because believe it or not I actually think that employment is the best way out of poverty but it takes more than just saying it. Sure Start and Tax credits would have been Tory policies in the past but now days they just lie.
And don't get me started on the local Tory MP who shafted the factory I ran because he ran a competitor (not for disabled people) but who was more than happy to take plaudits for our work.
a very one sided article, not too sure what to make of it. I hate the IRA but Corbyn seems to have supported the peace process and fair trials for all which in my book is right. Most of the article however seems to suggest he was a supporter of the IRA and what they were doing.