I'm 22 burdened with the debt of my tuition fees for the rest of my working life. Without getting a degree their is hardly any chance of me getting a job that would earn me enough money to rent anywhere near Charlton let alone buy. So the majority of my friends and me (the only ones who didn't could rely lie on the bank of mum and dad) voted Labour. It wasn't about wanting free stuff it was about wanting the potential to earn a real living and perhaps own a house. Something I legitimately doubt I will be able to do in my life time. I think that is a valid concern and is a bit harsh to say that we want life given to us on a plate. As a generation we are poorer, we rely more on the state and we have far less opportunities to become self sufficient. So when a manifesto says we will build more affordable houses, won't saddle you in debt for trying to earn a degree (that is necessary for a liveable wage in London now) and will raise wages we gobbled up. I don't think that is unreasonable. We are a generation that demands opportunity (provided by stable work/affordable housing/ decent public services), not free stuff.
It can be argued that those who voted Conservative (talking about older retired people as they are the only majority Tory vote) have earlier retirement, affordable housing all paid off, better pensions on a plate. Yes they had to work hard for what they have, but the younger generation have to work impossibly hard and still probably not get it! They don't have the same Brexit as me - a self employed businessman. They don't have the risks. I am fortunate, my mortgage is paid off - I plan to retire in a few years so maybe I should vote conservative but people like Gammon is one of the reasons I can't.
I think the younger generation should demand opportunity and we should demand it for them. They are our children and grandchildren. And they should respect the older generation too. I think this is made harder by the attitude many older people take. I want to see a country for all people - not just the young or the old. The young don't have the voice they need - or at least they didn't have it. They seem to be finding it and I think more and more of them will find it. This is what is happening now. I hope this doesn't become a young versus old tragedy. I think us oldies have the power to stop this happening.
@cafcfan so long as the Tories keep repeating the mantras 'stuff for free' and 'magic money tree' they will not get what has motivated younger people (see @Gammon's excellent post) and they will never get a majority, which is fine by me.
Most people either voted for hope or against despair. At the moment the Tories seem to be going through Katrien levels of "learning from our mistakes".
I'm 22 burdened with the debt of my tuition fees for the rest of my working life. Without getting a degree their is hardly any chance of me getting a job that would earn me enough money to rent anywhere near Charlton let alone buy. So the majority of my friends and me (the only ones who didn't could rely lie on the bank of mum and dad) voted Labour. It wasn't about wanting free stuff it was about wanting the potential to earn a real living and perhaps own a house. Something I legitimately doubt I will be able to do in my life time. I think that is a valid concern and is a bit harsh to say that we want life given to us on a plate. As a generation we are poorer, we rely more on the state and we have far less opportunities to become self sufficient. So when a manifesto says we will build more affordable houses, won't saddle you in debt for trying to earn a degree (that is necessary for a liveable wage in London now) and will raise wages we gobbled up. I don't think that is unreasonable. We are a generation that demands opportunity (provided by stable work/affordable housing/ decent public services), not free stuff.
Excellent post Gammon, Ive got 3 kids around your age, they are all working (1 is a plumbing apprentice, 1 works for a food importation company but is taking further education in accountancy, and the other is a qualified electrician) They all work their cobblers off and continue to do so, and I know that the future does worry them, Jnr (electrician) has just put a deposit down on a flat in Erith, its taken him ages and a lot of bloody hard graft, but at least he is closer to owning his own property. The other 2 will have to hope that there are more properties available to buy when they finish their respective training. BUT under the tories I can't see it happening, why build more when, if you keep supply low and demand high then those who own property will just see the prices rise. For me the Tory party are the party of self and the peddlers of greed, the Labour party are the champions of equality and fairness, and I totally understand why they appeal to the younger voter. What I dont understand is why they dont appeal to more older voters, although I think that is changing. As their dad I worry for them under a Tory government, I really do.
According to the Belfast Telegraph, proposed bondary changes mean that it looks like there may be a little something that could be close to the top of the DUP-Conservative agenda in coming to an agreement.
Mind you, in effect, Sinn Fein's policy of abstentionism means that they are always allied with the governing party (because of the reduced number of seats required to achieve a majority). I would absolutely love to see the Sinn Fein reaction if they were routinely described as being in coalition with the Conservatives and DUP over the course of this Parliament.
According to the Belfast Telegraph, proposed bondary changes mean that it looks like there may be a little something that could be close to the top of the DUP-Conservative agenda in coming to an agreement.
Mind you, in effect, Sinn Fein's policy of abstentionism means that they are always allied with the governing party (because of the reduced number of seats required to achieve a majority). I would absolutely love to see the Sinn Fein reaction if they were routinely described as being in coalition with the Conservatives and DUP over the course of this Parliament.
Maybe the DUP will suggest that an MP candidate has to declare their unwavering loyalty to the Monarch when they stand, not just when they win, and introduce new rules for MPs that a failure to attend a certain number of Commons votes will result in a by-election.
On the face of it, it is not entirely unreasonable to expect MPs to 1) not commit treason and 2) actually turn up.
According to the Belfast Telegraph, proposed bondary changes mean that it looks like there may be a little something that could be close to the top of the DUP-Conservative agenda in coming to an agreement.
Mind you, in effect, Sinn Fein's policy of abstentionism means that they are always allied with the governing party (because of the reduced number of seats required to achieve a majority). I would absolutely love to see the Sinn Fein reaction if they were routinely described as being in coalition with the Conservatives and DUP over the course of this Parliament.
Well if that's part of the 'price' the DUP demand for supporting the Tories then the Tories are not 'giving' them much.
As posted before - even before the General Election there were already so many potential 'losers' amongst MPs to put the proposed boundary changes in doubt.
The current timetable is for a final consultation on the changes this autumn to be followed by a final report to parliament late summer 2018 - which then has to be approved by a parliamentary vote.
Now with the need to minimise votes on anything to try and sustain the minority government anything unnecessarily 'controversial' (and the boundary changes are) will almost certainly be avoided (and that's if any arrangement with the DUP survives until autumn 2018).
I'm 22 burdened with the debt of my tuition fees for the rest of my working life. Without getting a degree their is hardly any chance of me getting a job that would earn me enough money to rent anywhere near Charlton let alone buy. So the majority of my friends and me (the only ones who didn't could rely lie on the bank of mum and dad) voted Labour. It wasn't about wanting free stuff it was about wanting the potential to earn a real living and perhaps own a house. Something I legitimately doubt I will be able to do in my life time. I think that is a valid concern and is a bit harsh to say that we want life given to us on a plate. As a generation we are poorer, we rely more on the state and we have far less opportunities to become self sufficient. So when a manifesto says we will build more affordable houses, won't saddle you in debt for trying to earn a degree (that is necessary for a liveable wage in London now) and will raise wages we gobbled up. I don't think that is unreasonable. We are a generation that demands opportunity (provided by stable work/affordable housing/ decent public services), not free stuff.
Okay, I find this all quite depressing because I feel you are going to be ultimately disappointed with your expectations arising from the siren voices of the Labour Party.
First off, can you tell me, when a Government was ever able to provided "stable work, affordable housing and decent public services"? I've certainly never had it during my lifetime and I'm just about at state retirement age. It's a dream and one that isn't going to come true. (You might sometimes get one of those three but all three together, I doubt it very much.)
I do have to dispute your claims that as a generation you are poorer. When I started work at 18 I got a pretty decent job, I thought. I got paid £16 a week. I thought I was rich. I've just bunged that through an inflation calculator and it comes out at £242.04 in today's money. Now the NMW for 18-20 year olds is £224 for a 40-hour week, so not too much difference. Except if you factor in a personal tax allowance of £325 (current equivalent £4916.37 vs £11,500 actual) and (I think) my basic tax rate was 30%, not 20%. If I'd wanted to borrow some money, bank rate was 7.0%, not 0.25%. (I did try once to borrow money to buy a car but the Midland Bank manager would not countenance a loan unless it was secured on my parents' property.) In those days inflation was terrible and train fares an equally hefty drain on net income as they are now. Of course, rather than VAT at 20%, we had purchase tax. That was charged at variable rates depending upon the perceived luxuriousness of the product but generally added around 25% to the wholesale price. But was charged at 55% on a vinyl LP. (In current money you'd pay £47 for a download!) Going on holiday abroad - forget it - apart from anything else there was the foreign travel allowance to contend with because of the exchange controls. For your amusement here's an extract from Hansard on a debate on this topic: "First, a paltry sum like this is positively demeaning for a country like Britain. Foreigners tend to regard it as quite despicable and contrary to the whole spirit of trade liberalisation. They tend to pity us like poor relations and feel that perhaps they should try and make special terms for us or give us special hospitality or make special allowances. In some instances they do not particularly care whether we go to their hotels or not, because they know that we have to be careful when it comes to giving tips and other rewards."
The thing is, we all knew (or hoped) that by changing jobs, getting promoted or whatever, gradually over time you'd be earning more and things would in all likelihood work out okay.
Excuse me for saying so, you say you don't want free stuff, but you do. Or if not free, heavily subsidised by someone else. Who do you think is going to be paying for affordable housing and decent public services?
Why do you think you have some right to live near Charlton? I had to move out to deep Kent and then even deeper Essex to be able to afford a property. Why do you think that in the future your chosen occupation will not provide you with a reasonable career path and a better life in the future? If you think it won't, get a different job. But please choose carefully and don't think you'll ever have a stable job. Where I worked whole departments disappeared overnight because Governments changed their minds about stuff. I have no idea how Jeremy could have stood there and guaranteed 1mn extra jobs. How can he do that? Industries come and go it's the nature of things. Take that against a backdrop of upcoming further huge automation. A recent study found that 1.2mn Scottish jobs - 46% of their workforce are at "high risk" of being replaced by machines with 1 in 6 public sector jobs also disappearing.
So choose a career carefully, I don't know, get a job as a personnel support officer in the RAF or something. You'd get £30k a year after training and freebie accommodation. And you wouldn't have to fight anybody. The opportunities out there are still (for the moment) almost endless, with or without a degree. But in five or six years things could be very different indeed. if not unrecognisable.
Do something pro-active and it will all come good. Please do not rely upon Jeremy or any other politician to do it for you: that way madness lies. In discussing all this, I'm reminded of the lyrics to The Black-Eyed Peas "Now Generation". Please don't fall for the smoke and mirrors of politicians. Or expect anything at all from any of them. Create your own future with your own brain and your own hands. Do not under any circumstances rely upon any politicians to do it for you. Be proactive. So, here's some more lyrics, this time from Alan Price: It's no use mumbling It's no use grumbling Life just isn't fair There's no easy days There's no easy ways Just get out there and do it!
I'm 22 burdened with the debt of my tuition fees for the rest of my working life. Without getting a degree their is hardly any chance of me getting a job that would earn me enough money to rent anywhere near Charlton let alone buy. So the majority of my friends and me (the only ones who didn't could rely lie on the bank of mum and dad) voted Labour. It wasn't about wanting free stuff it was about wanting the potential to earn a real living and perhaps own a house. Something I legitimately doubt I will be able to do in my life time. I think that is a valid concern and is a bit harsh to say that we want life given to us on a plate. As a generation we are poorer, we rely more on the state and we have far less opportunities to become self sufficient. So when a manifesto says we will build more affordable houses, won't saddle you in debt for trying to earn a degree (that is necessary for a liveable wage in London now) and will raise wages we gobbled up. I don't think that is unreasonable. We are a generation that demands opportunity (provided by stable work/affordable housing/ decent public services), not free stuff.
Okay, I find this all quite depressing because I feel you are going to be ultimately disappointed with your expectations arising from the siren voices of the Labour Party.
First off, can you tell me, when a Government was ever able to provided "stable work, affordable housing and decent public services"? I've certainly never had it during my lifetime and I'm just about at state retirement age. It's a dream and one that isn't going to come true. (You might sometimes get one of those three but all three together, I doubt it very much.)
I do have to dispute your claims that as a generation you are poorer. When I started work at 18 I got a pretty decent job, I thought. I got paid £16 a week. I thought I was rich. I've just bunged that through an inflation calculator and it comes out at £242.04 in today's money. Now the NMW for 18-20 year olds is £224 for a 40-hour week, so not too much difference. Except if you factor in a personal tax allowance of £325 (current equivalent £4916.37 vs £11,500 actual) and (I think) my basic tax rate was 30%, not 20%. If I'd wanted to borrow some money, bank rate was 7.0%, not 0.25%. (I did try once to borrow money to buy a car but the Midland Bank manager would not countenance a loan unless it was secured on my parents' property.) In those days inflation was terrible and train fares an equally hefty drain on net income as they are now. Of course, rather than VAT at 20%, we had purchase tax. That was charged at variable rates depending upon the perceived luxuriousness of the product but generally added around 25% to the wholesale price. But was charged at 55% on a vinyl LP. (In current money you'd pay £47 for a download!) Going on holiday abroad - forget it - apart from anything else there was the foreign travel allowance to contend with because of the exchange controls. For your amusement here's an extract from Hansard on a debate on this topic: "First, a paltry sum like this is positively demeaning for a country like Britain. Foreigners tend to regard it as quite despicable and contrary to the whole spirit of trade liberalisation. They tend to pity us like poor relations and feel that perhaps they should try and make special terms for us or give us special hospitality or make special allowances. In some instances they do not particularly care whether we go to their hotels or not, because they know that we have to be careful when it comes to giving tips and other rewards."
The thing is, we all knew (or hoped) that by changing jobs, getting promoted or whatever, gradually over time you'd be earning more and things would in all likelihood work out okay.
Excuse me for saying so, you say you don't want free stuff, but you do. Or if not free, heavily subsidised by someone else. Who do you think is going to be paying for affordable housing and decent public services?
Why do you think you have some right to live near Charlton? I had to move out to deep Kent and then even deeper Essex to be able to afford a property. Why do you think that in the future your chosen occupation will not provide you with a reasonable career path and a better life in the future? If you think it won't, get a different job. But please choose carefully and don't think you'll ever have a stable job. Where I worked whole departments disappeared overnight because Governments changed their minds about stuff. I have no idea how Jeremy could have stood there and guaranteed 1mn extra jobs. How can he do that? Industries come and go it's the nature of things. Take that against a backdrop of upcoming further huge automation. A recent study found that 1.2mn Scottish jobs - 46% of their workforce are at "high risk" of being replaced by machines with 1 in 6 public sector jobs also disappearing.
So choose a career carefully, I don't know, get a job as a personnel support officer in the RAF or something. You'd get £30k a year after training and freebie accommodation. And you wouldn't have to fight anybody. The opportunities out there are still (for the moment) almost endless, with or without a degree. But in five or six years things could be very different indeed. if not unrecognisable.
Do something pro-active and it will all come good. Please do not rely upon Jeremy or any other politician to do it for you: that way madness lies. In discussing all this, I'm reminded of the lyrics to The Black-Eyed Peas "Now Generation". Please don't fall for the smoke and mirrors of politicians. Or expect anything at all from any of them. Create your own future with your own brain and your own hands. Do not under any circumstances rely upon any politicians to do it for you. Be proactive. So, here's some more lyrics, this time from Alan Price: It's no use mumbling It's no use grumbling Life just isn't fair There's no easy days There's no easy ways Just get out there and do it!
Give them a chance. If you are right you are right, but many think you are wrong.
I'm 22 burdened with the debt of my tuition fees for the rest of my working life. Without getting a degree their is hardly any chance of me getting a job that would earn me enough money to rent anywhere near Charlton let alone buy. So the majority of my friends and me (the only ones who didn't could rely lie on the bank of mum and dad) voted Labour. It wasn't about wanting free stuff it was about wanting the potential to earn a real living and perhaps own a house. Something I legitimately doubt I will be able to do in my life time. I think that is a valid concern and is a bit harsh to say that we want life given to us on a plate. As a generation we are poorer, we rely more on the state and we have far less opportunities to become self sufficient. So when a manifesto says we will build more affordable houses, won't saddle you in debt for trying to earn a degree (that is necessary for a liveable wage in London now) and will raise wages we gobbled up. I don't think that is unreasonable. We are a generation that demands opportunity (provided by stable work/affordable housing/ decent public services), not free stuff.
Excellent post Gammon, Ive got 3 kids around your age, they are all working (1 is a plumbing apprentice, 1 works for a food importation company but is taking further education in accountancy, and the other is a qualified electrician) They all work their cobblers off and continue to do so, and I know that the future does worry them, Jnr (electrician) has just put a deposit down on a flat in Erith, its taken him ages and a lot of bloody hard graft, but at least he is closer to owning his own property. The other 2 will have to hope that there are more properties available to buy when they finish their respective training. BUT under the tories I can't see it happening, why build more when, if you keep supply low and demand high then those who own property will just see the prices rise. For me the Tory party are the party of self and the peddlers of greed, the Labour party are the champions of equality and fairness, and I totally understand why they appeal to the younger voter. What I dont understand is why they dont appeal to more older voters, although I think that is changing. As their dad I worry for them under a Tory government, I really do.
AFKA - this is taking the piss now, inadvertent cryptic digs. And it's even transcended into twitter. Local journalist and media outlet ganging up on me
I'm 22 burdened with the debt of my tuition fees for the rest of my working life. Without getting a degree their is hardly any chance of me getting a job that would earn me enough money to rent anywhere near Charlton let alone buy. So the majority of my friends and me (the only ones who didn't could rely lie on the bank of mum and dad) voted Labour. It wasn't about wanting free stuff it was about wanting the potential to earn a real living and perhaps own a house. Something I legitimately doubt I will be able to do in my life time. I think that is a valid concern and is a bit harsh to say that we want life given to us on a plate. As a generation we are poorer, we rely more on the state and we have far less opportunities to become self sufficient. So when a manifesto says we will build more affordable houses, won't saddle you in debt for trying to earn a degree (that is necessary for a liveable wage in London now) and will raise wages we gobbled up. I don't think that is unreasonable. We are a generation that demands opportunity (provided by stable work/affordable housing/ decent public services), not free stuff.
Excellent post Gammon, Ive got 3 kids around your age, they are all working (1 is a plumbing apprentice, 1 works for a food importation company but is taking further education in accountancy, and the other is a qualified electrician) They all work their cobblers off and continue to do so, and I know that the future does worry them, Jnr (electrician) has just put a deposit down on a flat in Erith, its taken him ages and a lot of bloody hard graft, but at least he is closer to owning his own property. The other 2 will have to hope that there are more properties available to buy when they finish their respective training. BUT under the tories I can't see it happening, why build more when, if you keep supply low and demand high then those who own property will just see the prices rise. For me the Tory party are the party of self and the peddlers of greed, the Labour party are the champions of equality and fairness, and I totally understand why they appeal to the younger voter. What I dont understand is why they dont appeal to more older voters, although I think that is changing. As their dad I worry for them under a Tory government, I really do.
AFKA - this is taking the piss now, inadvertent cryptic digs. And it's even transcended into twitter. Local journalist and media outlet ganging up on me
I'm 22 burdened with the debt of my tuition fees for the rest of my working life. Without getting a degree their is hardly any chance of me getting a job that would earn me enough money to rent anywhere near Charlton let alone buy. So the majority of my friends and me (the only ones who didn't could rely lie on the bank of mum and dad) voted Labour. It wasn't about wanting free stuff it was about wanting the potential to earn a real living and perhaps own a house. Something I legitimately doubt I will be able to do in my life time. I think that is a valid concern and is a bit harsh to say that we want life given to us on a plate. As a generation we are poorer, we rely more on the state and we have far less opportunities to become self sufficient. So when a manifesto says we will build more affordable houses, won't saddle you in debt for trying to earn a degree (that is necessary for a liveable wage in London now) and will raise wages we gobbled up. I don't think that is unreasonable. We are a generation that demands opportunity (provided by stable work/affordable housing/ decent public services), not free stuff.
Okay, I find this all quite depressing because I feel you are going to be ultimately disappointed with your expectations arising from the siren voices of the Labour Party.
First off, can you tell me, when a Government was ever able to provided "stable work, affordable housing and decent public services"? I've certainly never had it during my lifetime and I'm just about at state retirement age. It's a dream and one that isn't going to come true. (You might sometimes get one of those three but all three together, I doubt it very much.)
I do have to dispute your claims that as a generation you are poorer. When I started work at 18 I got a pretty decent job, I thought. I got paid £16 a week. I thought I was rich. I've just bunged that through an inflation calculator and it comes out at £242.04 in today's money. Now the NMW for 18-20 year olds is £224 for a 40-hour week, so not too much difference. Except if you factor in a personal tax allowance of £325 (current equivalent £4916.37 vs £11,500 actual) and (I think) my basic tax rate was 30%, not 20%. If I'd wanted to borrow some money, bank rate was 7.0%, not 0.25%. (I did try once to borrow money to buy a car but the Midland Bank manager would not countenance a loan unless it was secured on my parents' property.) In those days inflation was terrible and train fares an equally hefty drain on net income as they are now. Of course, rather than VAT at 20%, we had purchase tax. That was charged at variable rates depending upon the perceived luxuriousness of the product but generally added around 25% to the wholesale price. But was charged at 55% on a vinyl LP. (In current money you'd pay £47 for a download!) Going on holiday abroad - forget it - apart from anything else there was the foreign travel allowance to contend with because of the exchange controls. For your amusement here's an extract from Hansard on a debate on this topic: "First, a paltry sum like this is positively demeaning for a country like Britain. Foreigners tend to regard it as quite despicable and contrary to the whole spirit of trade liberalisation. They tend to pity us like poor relations and feel that perhaps they should try and make special terms for us or give us special hospitality or make special allowances. In some instances they do not particularly care whether we go to their hotels or not, because they know that we have to be careful when it comes to giving tips and other rewards."
The thing is, we all knew (or hoped) that by changing jobs, getting promoted or whatever, gradually over time you'd be earning more and things would in all likelihood work out okay.
Excuse me for saying so, you say you don't want free stuff, but you do. Or if not free, heavily subsidised by someone else. Who do you think is going to be paying for affordable housing and decent public services?
Why do you think you have some right to live near Charlton? I had to move out to deep Kent and then even deeper Essex to be able to afford a property. Why do you think that in the future your chosen occupation will not provide you with a reasonable career path and a better life in the future? If you think it won't, get a different job. But please choose carefully and don't think you'll ever have a stable job. Where I worked whole departments disappeared overnight because Governments changed their minds about stuff. I have no idea how Jeremy could have stood there and guaranteed 1mn extra jobs. How can he do that? Industries come and go it's the nature of things. Take that against a backdrop of upcoming further huge automation. A recent study found that 1.2mn Scottish jobs - 46% of their workforce are at "high risk" of being replaced by machines with 1 in 6 public sector jobs also disappearing.
So choose a career carefully, I don't know, get a job as a personnel support officer in the RAF or something. You'd get £30k a year after training and freebie accommodation. And you wouldn't have to fight anybody. The opportunities out there are still (for the moment) almost endless, with or without a degree. But in five or six years things could be very different indeed. if not unrecognisable.
Do something pro-active and it will all come good. Please do not rely upon Jeremy or any other politician to do it for you: that way madness lies. In discussing all this, I'm reminded of the lyrics to The Black-Eyed Peas "Now Generation". Please don't fall for the smoke and mirrors of politicians. Or expect anything at all from any of them. Create your own future with your own brain and your own hands. Do not under any circumstances rely upon any politicians to do it for you. Be proactive. So, here's some more lyrics, this time from Alan Price: It's no use mumbling It's no use grumbling Life just isn't fair There's no easy days There's no easy ways Just get out there and do it!
Most people are being proactive, but the system is against most of them.
Some people bend over and take it, some of us want to make the world a better place to live in (for everybody)
I don't think there is a god given right to live in any area but there is much to say about the problems of gentrification. That is isolates communities and families and that isn't a positive thing. There is a whole discussion on that topic. So we will just have to put that to one side.
Affordable housing isn't necessarily generated from subsidised council housing it comes from competition in the market. If there were more houses and flats available. It is likely that the jobs that I am likely to get at the moment will take up 60% of my wage on rent alone. Not bills, not food. That is on shared accommodation. That limits my ability to truly save and perhaps own a property.
It also limits my flexibility to go for new opportunities as i wouldn't be able to afford the uncertainty. This limits innovation and potential in the majority of young adults.
It also limits my ability to support other members of my family who are currently disabled. However I have to provide for them because the government (especially the dwp) have neglected social care and so I fear for their safety.
Again this stops me from having control of my own life. The decisions are made for me. Maybe I should have had a job in the RAF. But I would also say it is unethical to limit the jobs that less wealthy can have to ones that decide that they will pay your lodgings.
These aren't mumbles or grumbles but legitimate concerns. I certainly ain't waiting on someone to provide for me and am putting myself out there and i will be a lucky one. But many more won't be. In real terms we are poorer as more of our income will be spent before we see it. For that we will have less funded public services and less public ownership. And am less likely to break out the cycle. Meanwhile the landlords get richer and richer.
It seems very unfair to me. We all work hard and no matter whether you thought out your career well you deserve a roof and food for an honest days work.
If that requires subsidised services and housing then it is worth it as the wealth of our nation is certainly not based on who has worked hardest. I'm afraid it is mainly based on where and when you were born (edit added born. Wasn't making a metaphysical point)
To break this cycle of no real opportunities, unless you miracously had everything together since you were in primary school, it requires investment. Having a publicly funded bank investing in the British people for British jobs is a start.
Many of these projects will build houses and that will take the scarcity out of housing taking the price down. And the funding can come from the tax-dodgers.
As I have mentioned above, I truly see these as legitimate concerns and not grumbling and mumbling and to say so is misrepresenting us. I maybe wrong about the solutions but at least one party is trying to provide one.
I don't think there is a god given right to live in any area but there is much to say about the problems of gentrification. That is isolates communities and families and that isn't a positive thing. There is a whole discussion on that topic. So we will just have to put that to one side.
Affordable housing isn't necessarily generated from subsidised council housing it comes from competition in the market. If there were more houses and flats available. It is likely that the jobs that I am likely to get at the moment will take up 60% of my wage on rent alone. Not bills, not food. That is on shared accommodation. That limits my ability to truly save and perhaps own a property.
It also limits my flexibility to go for new opportunities as i wouldn't be able to afford the uncertainty. This limits innovation and potential in the majority of young adults.
It also limits my ability to support other members of my family who are currently disabled. However I have to provide for them because the government (especially the dwp) have neglected social care and so I fear for their safety.
Again this stops me from having control of my own life. The decisions are made for me. Maybe I should have had a job in the RAF. But I would also say it is unethical to limit the jobs that less wealthy can have to ones that decide that they will pay your lodgings.
These aren't mumbles or grumbles but legitimate concerns. I certainly ain't waiting on someone to provide for me and am putting myself out there and i will be a lucky one. But many more won't be. In real terms we are poorer as more of our income will be spent before we see it. For that we will have less funded public services and less public ownership. And am less likely to break out the cycle. Meanwhile the landlords get richer and richer.
It seems very unfair to me. We all work hard and no matter whether you thought out your career well you deserve a roof and food for an honest days work.
If that requires subsidised services and housing then it is worth it as the wealth of our nation is certainly not based on who has worked hardest. I'm afraid it is mainly based on where and when you were born (edit added born. Wasn't making a metaphysical point)
To break this cycle of no real opportunities, unless you miracously had everything together since you were in primary school, it requires investment. Having a publicly funded bank investing in the British people for British jobs is a start.
Many of these projects will build houses and that will take the scarcity out of housing taking the price down. And the funding can come from the tax-dodgers.
As I have mentioned above, I truly see these as legitimate concerns and not grumbling and mumbling and to say so is misrepresenting us. I maybe wrong about the solutions but at least one party is trying to provide one.
Gammon, you've given us 2 very concise and articulate posts. excellent contributions
Okay, I find this all quite depressing because I feel you are going to be ultimately disappointed with your expectations arising from the siren voices of the Labour Party.
First off, can you tell me, when a Government was ever able to provided "stable work, affordable housing and decent public services"? I've certainly never had it during my lifetime and I'm just about at state retirement age. It's a dream and one that isn't going to come true. (You might sometimes get one of those three but all three together, I doubt it very much.)
I do have to dispute your claims that as a generation you are poorer. When I started work at 18 I got a pretty decent job, I thought. I got paid £16 a week. I thought I was rich. I've just bunged that through an inflation calculator and it comes out at £242.04 in today's money. Now the NMW for 18-20 year olds is £224 for a 40-hour week, so not too much difference. Except if you factor in a personal tax allowance of £325 (current equivalent £4916.37 vs £11,500 actual) and (I think) my basic tax rate was 30%, not 20%. If I'd wanted to borrow some money, bank rate was 7.0%, not 0.25%. (I did try once to borrow money to buy a car but the Midland Bank manager would not countenance a loan unless it was secured on my parents' property.) In those days inflation was terrible and train fares an equally hefty drain on net income as they are now. Of course, rather than VAT at 20%, we had purchase tax. That was charged at variable rates depending upon the perceived luxuriousness of the product but generally added around 25% to the wholesale price. But was charged at 55% on a vinyl LP. (In current money you'd pay £47 for a download!) Going on holiday abroad - forget it - apart from anything else there was the foreign travel allowance to contend with because of the exchange controls. For your amusement here's an extract from Hansard on a debate on this topic: "First, a paltry sum like this is positively demeaning for a country like Britain. Foreigners tend to regard it as quite despicable and contrary to the whole spirit of trade liberalisation. They tend to pity us like poor relations and feel that perhaps they should try and make special terms for us or give us special hospitality or make special allowances. In some instances they do not particularly care whether we go to their hotels or not, because they know that we have to be careful when it comes to giving tips and other rewards."
The thing is, we all knew (or hoped) that by changing jobs, getting promoted or whatever, gradually over time you'd be earning more and things would in all likelihood work out okay.
Excuse me for saying so, you say you don't want free stuff, but you do. Or if not free, heavily subsidised by someone else. Who do you think is going to be paying for affordable housing and decent public services?
Why do you think you have some right to live near Charlton? I had to move out to deep Kent and then even deeper Essex to be able to afford a property. Why do you think that in the future your chosen occupation will not provide you with a reasonable career path and a better life in the future? If you think it won't, get a different job. But please choose carefully and don't think you'll ever have a stable job. Where I worked whole departments disappeared overnight because Governments changed their minds about stuff. I have no idea how Jeremy could have stood there and guaranteed 1mn extra jobs. How can he do that? Industries come and go it's the nature of things. Take that against a backdrop of upcoming further huge automation. A recent study found that 1.2mn Scottish jobs - 46% of their workforce are at "high risk" of being replaced by machines with 1 in 6 public sector jobs also disappearing.
So choose a career carefully, I don't know, get a job as a personnel support officer in the RAF or something. You'd get £30k a year after training and freebie accommodation. And you wouldn't have to fight anybody. The opportunities out there are still (for the moment) almost endless, with or without a degree. But in five or six years things could be very different indeed. if not unrecognisable.
Do something pro-active and it will all come good. Please do not rely upon Jeremy or any other politician to do it for you: that way madness lies. In discussing all this, I'm reminded of the lyrics to The Black-Eyed Peas "Now Generation". Please don't fall for the smoke and mirrors of politicians. Or expect anything at all from any of them. Create your own future with your own brain and your own hands. Do not under any circumstances rely upon any politicians to do it for you. Be proactive. So, here's some more lyrics, this time from Alan Price: It's no use mumbling It's no use grumbling Life just isn't fair There's no easy days There's no easy ways Just get out there and do it!
I have to echo this. Welfare apart, it is not within the gift of politicians to give you anything. They have a poor track record in delivering good outcomes in return for your vote.
I started out earning the equivalent of £10,600 a year. When i got married mortgage rates were 5% and rose to 18%. We had to move out of Charlton to Swanley to afford a flat to buy. Men who retired lived on average 12 years, now it is 18 and increasing all the time. Inflation fluctuated between 5% and 18% p.a. On the bright side, a pint of beer was 90p, but it was shit keg beer.
The only serious difference, and it is a serious difference is housing. No way can you buy a house today of 4 times average salary in the south. We could argue why we think the problem has arisen and what went wrong but I don't see politicians understanding it is the single most important issue for millions of young people. Solving the housing problem would, i am sure, be key to giving the current generation more optimism. The tuition fees policy is nothing but a window dressing diversion of public funds away from more needy public services.
I am therefore more impressed with Corbyn's radical approach to housing crisis than the Tories, not that I think it would work nor that he has the people around him currently to give legs to a practical radical policy.
It's a shame that Corbyn could not resist his anti corporate/anti rich scapegoating and forgot about the fanciful nationalisation obsession and focused 100% on solving the housing problem. A better slogan would have been "A system that works for the young not just the old property owners with pensions".
All his other fanciful spending plans could have been ditched in favour of a massive spending programme on private and social housing with rent controls and something really radical, how about a dedicated inheritance tax on housing value above CPI during ownership. It would be up to the young to convince their parents to vote for such a policy, as May has found out, politicians feed of bribes, nothing else. Increasing the national debt would be inevitable but justified, repayment of the debt would be met by the generation which benefits from it.
We have, unfortunately, entrenched tribal politics that are unable to cross one another's lines to deliver positive radical policies rather than ones defined by either negative, aggressive or defensive rhetoric. But we get the politicians we deserve.
I've been "complaining" for years on CL about the ever more ridiculous price of housing and have been pleased with the Tory measures in the last couple of years, that without doubt have caused the top end of the market to fall markedly. Brexit situation has also been a factor.
I just hope that this trickles down. Logic dictates It should and yet there are no current signs.
All the while we have net immigration running into the hundreds of thousands, this can't change.
The demand for somewhere to live is growing every year and property building will never keep up.
Plus of course, as many jobs are in London and the South East, more and more and more people want/need to live here.
One of the reasons why of course Scotland want immigration, because the majority of UK immigrants choose to not live in Scotland.
Living costs have increased particularly private housing, and I expect other costs too, plus public housing has become less available. Personal loans aren't that low, mortgages are though. Would be interesting to see research on real terms cost of living comparison vs wages over the decades
Personally I lived at home until I could afford to move out.
The increase in population is going to outstrip increase in housing for years to come through net immigration to the country, rising birth rates and general better health of the population.
Without curbing immigration or having compulsory euthanasia at 80 this ain't going to change.
With best will in the world we would not be able to build enough new houses to meet demand.
We have opposite views but As @Greenie has said about his son @Greenie Junior He has had to work hard to afford his deposit on a flat but he has not got a degree. He has got off his arse and despite suffering knock backs with his apprenticeship will be getting on the property ladder. In 15 years time I suspect we will need more electricians than graduates of art history or media studies.
Personally I lived at home until I could afford to move out.
The increase in population is going to outstrip increase in housing for years to come through net immigration to the country, rising birth rates and general better health of the population.
Without curbing immigration or having compulsory euthanasia at 80 this ain't going to change.
With best will in the world we would not be able to build enough new houses to meet demand.
We have opposite views but As @Greenie has said about his son @Greenie Junior He has had to work hard to afford his deposit on a flat but he has not got a degree. He has got off his arse and despite suffering knock backs with his apprenticeship will be getting on the property ladder. In 15 years time I suspect we will need more electricians than graduates of art history or media studies.
We have opposite views but As @Greenie has said about his son @Greenie Junior He has had to work hard to afford his deposit on a flat but he has not got a degree. He has got off his arse and despite suffering knock backs with his apprenticeship will be getting on the property ladder. In 15 years time I suspect we will need more electricians than graduates of art history or media studies.
Indeed. Just think, apart from everything else, millions upon millions of electric car charging points will need to be put up outside our houses.
Personally I lived at home until I could afford to move out.
The increase in population is going to outstrip increase in housing for years to come through net immigration to the country, rising birth rates and general better health of the population.
Without curbing immigration or having compulsory euthanasia at 80 this ain't going to change.
With best will in the world we would not be able to build enough new houses to meet demand.
We have opposite views but As @Greenie has said about his son @Greenie Junior He has had to work hard to afford his deposit on a flat but he has not got a degree. He has got off his arse and despite suffering knock backs with his apprenticeship will be getting on the property ladder. In 15 years time I suspect we will need more electricians than graduates of art history or media studies.
Sorry for rambling
It is different if you grew up in care.
I know that subject is close to your heart. For those of us that don't know, can you tell us what happens once children in care reach adulthood? What systems are in place with regards to housing / job placements / further education etc ? If any !
Comments
We are a generation that demands opportunity (provided by stable work/affordable housing/ decent public services), not free stuff.
I think the younger generation should demand opportunity and we should demand it for them. They are our children and grandchildren. And they should respect the older generation too. I think this is made harder by the attitude many older people take. I want to see a country for all people - not just the young or the old. The young don't have the voice they need - or at least they didn't have it. They seem to be finding it and I think more and more of them will find it. This is what is happening now. I hope this doesn't become a young versus old tragedy. I think us oldies have the power to stop this happening.
Most people either voted for hope or against despair. At the moment the Tories seem to be going through Katrien levels of "learning from our mistakes".
They all work their cobblers off and continue to do so, and I know that the future does worry them, Jnr (electrician) has just put a deposit down on a flat in Erith, its taken him ages and a lot of bloody hard graft, but at least he is closer to owning his own property. The other 2 will have to hope that there are more properties available to buy when they finish their respective training. BUT under the tories I can't see it happening, why build more when, if you keep supply low and demand high then those who own property will just see the prices rise.
For me the Tory party are the party of self and the peddlers of greed, the Labour party are the champions of equality and fairness, and I totally understand why they appeal to the younger voter. What I dont understand is why they dont appeal to more older voters, although I think that is changing.
As their dad I worry for them under a Tory government, I really do.
belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/boundary-changes-could-make-sinn-fein-biggest-party-in-northern-ireland-35831665.html
Mind you, in effect, Sinn Fein's policy of abstentionism means that they are always allied with the governing party (because of the reduced number of seats required to achieve a majority). I would absolutely love to see the Sinn Fein reaction if they were routinely described as being in coalition with the Conservatives and DUP over the course of this Parliament.
On the face of it, it is not entirely unreasonable to expect MPs to 1) not commit treason and 2) actually turn up.
As posted before - even before the General Election there were already so many potential 'losers' amongst MPs to put the proposed boundary changes in doubt.
The current timetable is for a final consultation on the changes this autumn to be followed by a final report to parliament late summer 2018 - which then has to be approved by a parliamentary vote.
Now with the need to minimise votes on anything to try and sustain the minority government anything unnecessarily 'controversial' (and the boundary changes are) will almost certainly be avoided (and that's if any arrangement with the DUP survives until autumn 2018).
First off, can you tell me, when a Government was ever able to provided "stable work, affordable housing and decent public services"? I've certainly never had it during my lifetime and I'm just about at state retirement age. It's a dream and one that isn't going to come true. (You might sometimes get one of those three but all three together, I doubt it very much.)
I do have to dispute your claims that as a generation you are poorer. When I started work at 18 I got a pretty decent job, I thought. I got paid £16 a week. I thought I was rich. I've just bunged that through an inflation calculator and it comes out at £242.04 in today's money. Now the NMW for 18-20 year olds is £224 for a 40-hour week, so not too much difference. Except if you factor in a personal tax allowance of £325 (current equivalent £4916.37 vs £11,500 actual) and (I think) my basic tax rate was 30%, not 20%. If I'd wanted to borrow some money, bank rate was 7.0%, not 0.25%. (I did try once to borrow money to buy a car but the Midland Bank manager would not countenance a loan unless it was secured on my parents' property.) In those days inflation was terrible and train fares an equally hefty drain on net income as they are now. Of course, rather than VAT at 20%, we had purchase tax. That was charged at variable rates depending upon the perceived luxuriousness of the product but generally added around 25% to the wholesale price. But was charged at 55% on a vinyl LP. (In current money you'd pay £47 for a download!) Going on holiday abroad - forget it - apart from anything else there was the foreign travel allowance to contend with because of the exchange controls. For your amusement here's an extract from Hansard on a debate on this topic: "First, a paltry sum like this is positively demeaning for a country like Britain. Foreigners tend to regard it as quite despicable and contrary to the whole spirit of trade liberalisation. They tend to pity us like poor relations and feel that perhaps they should try and make special terms for us or give us special hospitality or make special allowances. In some instances they do not particularly care whether we go to their hotels or not, because they know that we have to be careful when it comes to giving tips and other rewards."
The thing is, we all knew (or hoped) that by changing jobs, getting promoted or whatever, gradually over time you'd be earning more and things would in all likelihood work out okay.
Excuse me for saying so, you say you don't want free stuff, but you do. Or if not free, heavily subsidised by someone else. Who do you think is going to be paying for affordable housing and decent public services?
Why do you think you have some right to live near Charlton? I had to move out to deep Kent and then even deeper Essex to be able to afford a property. Why do you think that in the future your chosen occupation will not provide you with a reasonable career path and a better life in the future? If you think it won't, get a different job. But please choose carefully and don't think you'll ever have a stable job. Where I worked whole departments disappeared overnight because Governments changed their minds about stuff. I have no idea how Jeremy could have stood there and guaranteed 1mn extra jobs. How can he do that? Industries come and go it's the nature of things. Take that against a backdrop of upcoming further huge automation. A recent study found that 1.2mn Scottish jobs - 46% of their workforce are at "high risk" of being replaced by machines with 1 in 6 public sector jobs also disappearing.
So choose a career carefully, I don't know, get a job as a personnel support officer in the RAF or something. You'd get £30k a year after training and freebie accommodation. And you wouldn't have to fight anybody. The opportunities out there are still (for the moment) almost endless, with or without a degree. But in five or six years things could be very different indeed. if not unrecognisable.
Do something pro-active and it will all come good. Please do not rely upon Jeremy or any other politician to do it for you: that way madness lies. In discussing all this, I'm reminded of the lyrics to The Black-Eyed Peas "Now Generation". Please don't fall for the smoke and mirrors of politicians. Or expect anything at all from any of them. Create your own future with your own brain and your own hands. Do not under any circumstances rely upon any politicians to do it for you. Be proactive. So, here's some more lyrics, this time from Alan Price:
It's no use mumbling
It's no use grumbling
Life just isn't fair
There's no easy days
There's no easy ways
Just get out there and do it!
As an aside there was an interesting piece in the New York Times today written from an Irish perspective:
https://nytimes.com/2017/06/16/opinion/britain-ireland-brexit-leo-varadkar.html?_r=0
Some people bend over and take it, some of us want to make the world a better place to live in (for everybody)
Affordable housing isn't necessarily generated from subsidised council housing it comes from competition in the market. If there were more houses and flats available. It is likely that the jobs that I am likely to get at the moment will take up 60% of my wage on rent alone. Not bills, not food. That is on shared accommodation. That limits my ability to truly save and perhaps own a property.
It also limits my flexibility to go for new opportunities as i wouldn't be able to afford the uncertainty. This limits innovation and potential in the majority of young adults.
It also limits my ability to support other members of my family who are currently disabled. However I have to provide for them because the government (especially the dwp) have neglected social care and so I fear for their safety.
Again this stops me from having control of my own life. The decisions are made for me. Maybe I should have had a job in the RAF. But I would also say it is unethical to limit the jobs that less wealthy can have to ones that decide that they will pay your lodgings.
These aren't mumbles or grumbles but legitimate concerns. I certainly ain't waiting on someone to provide for me and am putting myself out there and i will be a lucky one. But many more won't be. In real terms we are poorer as more of our income will be spent before we see it. For that we will have less funded public services and less public ownership. And am less likely to break out the cycle. Meanwhile the landlords get richer and richer.
It seems very unfair to me. We all work hard and no matter whether you thought out your career well you deserve a roof and food for an honest days work.
If that requires subsidised services and housing then it is worth it as the wealth of our nation is certainly not based on who has worked hardest. I'm afraid it is mainly based on where and when you were born (edit added born. Wasn't making a metaphysical point)
To break this cycle of no real opportunities, unless you miracously had everything together since you were in primary school, it requires investment. Having a publicly funded bank investing in the British people for British jobs is a start.
Many of these projects will build houses and that will take the scarcity out of housing taking the price down. And the funding can come from the tax-dodgers.
As I have mentioned above, I truly see these as legitimate concerns and not grumbling and mumbling and to say so is misrepresenting us. I maybe wrong about the solutions but at least one party is trying to provide one.
I started out earning the equivalent of £10,600 a year. When i got married mortgage rates were 5% and rose to 18%. We had to move out of Charlton to Swanley to afford a flat to buy. Men who retired lived on average 12 years, now it is 18 and increasing all the time. Inflation fluctuated between 5% and 18% p.a. On the bright side, a pint of beer was 90p, but it was shit keg beer.
The only serious difference, and it is a serious difference is housing. No way can you buy a house today of 4 times average salary in the south. We could argue why we think the problem has arisen and what went wrong but I don't see politicians understanding it is the single most important issue for millions of young people. Solving the housing problem would, i am sure, be key to giving the current generation more optimism. The tuition fees policy is nothing but a window dressing diversion of public funds away from more needy public services.
I am therefore more impressed with Corbyn's radical approach to housing crisis than the Tories, not that I think it would work nor that he has the people around him currently to give legs to a practical radical policy.
It's a shame that Corbyn could not resist his anti corporate/anti rich scapegoating and forgot about the fanciful nationalisation obsession and focused 100% on solving the housing problem. A better slogan would have been "A system that works for the young not just the old property owners with pensions".
All his other fanciful spending plans could have been ditched in favour of a massive spending programme on private and social housing with rent controls and something really radical, how about a dedicated inheritance tax on housing value above CPI during ownership. It would be up to the young to convince their parents to vote for such a policy, as May has found out, politicians feed of bribes, nothing else. Increasing the national debt would be inevitable but justified, repayment of the debt would be met by the generation which benefits from it.
We have, unfortunately, entrenched tribal politics that are unable to cross one another's lines to deliver positive radical policies rather than ones defined by either negative, aggressive or defensive rhetoric. But we get the politicians we deserve.
I've been "complaining" for years on CL about the ever more ridiculous price of housing and have been pleased with the Tory measures in the last couple of years, that without doubt have caused the top end of the market to fall markedly.
Brexit situation has also been a factor.
I just hope that this trickles down. Logic dictates It should and yet there are no current signs.
All the while we have net immigration running into the hundreds of thousands, this can't change.
The demand for somewhere to live is growing every year and property building will never keep up.
Plus of course, as many jobs are in London and the South East, more and more and more people want/need to live here.
One of the reasons why of course Scotland want immigration, because the majority of UK immigrants choose to not live in Scotland.
The increase in population is going to outstrip increase in housing for years to come through net immigration to the country, rising birth rates and general better health of the population.
Without curbing immigration or having compulsory euthanasia at 80 this ain't going to change.
With best will in the world we would not be able to build enough new houses to meet demand.
We have opposite views but As @Greenie has said about his son @Greenie Junior He has had to work hard to afford his deposit on a flat but he has not got a degree. He has got off his arse and despite suffering knock backs with his apprenticeship will be getting on the property ladder. In 15 years time I suspect we will need more electricians than graduates of art history or media studies.
Sorry for rambling