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The General Election - June 8th 2017

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  • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fz2JFCj26yQ

    Whatever you think of the guy narrating, it's hard to argue with the point of the video.

    You could substitute Theresa May for more or less any other previous Prime Minister. Politician's lie. Politician's spin truth. Politician's cannot be trusted. Even if Corbyn got in, who most seem to think is a stand up honest guy, even he would find out that some of the things he promised just aren't possible.
  • I learnt way back at Polytechnic that a democracy is something that has to be protected, every day, by every citizen. If you just sit in the pub moaning, don't be surprised if people take control who do things that harm your life (that was the essence of the Valley Party, btw). That's why I always vote, and latterly have to bend the rules to make sure I can.

    Currently I am preparing for the Czech citizenship test. It is bloody difficult. My Czech teacher says there are a whole load of questions there that she could not answer. But all of them are about things I should know, if I am to be a good Czech citizen. I understand the UK citizenship test is similarly rigorous (I bet the Czechs have used it to build theirs, which was upgraded in 2014).

    That should remind us all that being a citizen means something. It means voting. If you can vote, and don't, you are letting your nation down, IMHO. If you are dissatisfied with the choice, then turn up and write "you are all tossers" on you ballot box. But turn up. It is the most fundamental duty you have. If you don't do it, then you should be fined, just as you are fined when you do other things which make you a bad citizen, like dropping litter in the street.
  • edited May 2017

    If you are dissatisfied with the choice, then turn up and write "you are all tossers" on you ballot box.

    The thing is that does nothing. It just gets logged as a spoilt ballot paper. So no one and, in particular, the candidates and their parties know whether you've made a derogatory remark or just been an idiot and put a cross in too many boxes by mistake.
    It might have some meaning if there was a "none of the above" option for your cross or an official remarks box with the remarks being published so that the politicians would get to see people's angst at first hand.

    (I'm still not voting.)
  • Labour has to start talking to the people - If you are on 20k a year, 30k, 40k, 50k...... how much better off will you be? They need to give as many specifics as they possibly can and have them delivered by people who are well briefed!!!! I know....... Feels a bit like waiting for Roland to come good. People don't rrust Corbyn's abilities to run the country, that needs to be addressed with detail and specifics and it needs to start now!
  • edited May 2017

    I learnt way back at Polytechnic that a democracy is something that has to be protected, every day, by every citizen. If you just sit in the pub moaning, don't be surprised if people take control who do things that harm your life (that was the essence of the Valley Party, btw). That's why I always vote, and latterly have to bend the rules to make sure I can.

    Currently I am preparing for the Czech citizenship test. It is bloody difficult. My Czech teacher says there are a whole load of questions there that she could not answer. But all of them are about things I should know, if I am to be a good Czech citizen. I understand the UK citizenship test is similarly rigorous (I bet the Czechs have used it to build theirs, which was upgraded in 2014).

    That should remind us all that being a citizen means something. It means voting. If you can vote, and don't, you are letting your nation down, IMHO. If you are dissatisfied with the choice, then turn up and write "you are all tossers" on you ballot box. But turn up. It is the most fundamental duty you have. If you don't do it, then you should be fined, just as you are fined when you do other things which make you a bad citizen, like dropping litter in the street.

    I have to disagree.

    I have the right to vote, a hard earned right I agree. But within a free society the freedom of choice is mine, and if I choose not to vote then I am exercising that freedom of choice.

    From a personal level, I always vote - but I respect the right of any other citizen to choose not.

    It is the responsibility of the political parties and political system to engage the electorate. Perhaps PR would help, maybe it wouldn't.
  • Labour has to start talking to the people - If you are on 20k a year, 30k, 40k, 50k...... how much better off will you be? They need to give as many specifics as they possibly can and have them delivered by people who are well briefed!!!! I know....... Feels a bit like waiting for Roland to come good. People don't rrust Corbyn's abilities to run the country, that needs to be addressed with detail and specifics and it needs to start now!

    Trouble is, if they did that, people would just laugh. Here's what we know so far. I've highlighted the bits that will scare the bejesus out of the electorate or put my own comments at the end of each section. (From Mr Corbyn's own web site):

    We will create a million good quality jobs across our regions and nations and guarantee a decent job for all. By investing £500 billion in infrastructure, manufacturing and new industries backed up by a publicly-owned National Investment Bank and regional banks we will build a high skilled, high tech, low carbon economy that ends austerity and leaves no one and nowhere left behind. We will invest in the high speed broadband, energy, transport and homes that our country needs and allow good businesses to thrive, and support a new generation of co-operative enterprises.

    We will build a million new homes in five years, with at least half a million council homes, through our public investment strategy. We will end insecurity for private renters by introducing rent controls, secure tenancies and a charter of private tenants’ rights, and increase access to affordable home ownership.

    We will give people stronger employment rights from day one in a job, end exploitative zero hours contracts and create new sectoral collective bargaining rights, including mandatory collective bargaining for companies with 250 or more employees. We will create new employment and trade union rights to bring security to the workplace and win better pay and conditions for everyone. We will strengthen working people’s representation at work and the ability of trade unions to organise so that working people have a real voice at work. And we will put the defence of social and employment rights, as well as action against undercutting of pay and conditions through the exploitation of migrant labour, at the centre of the Brexit negotiations agenda for a new relationship with Europe.

    We will end health service privatisation and bring services into a secure, publicly-provided NHS. We will integrate the NHS and social care for older and disabled people, funding dignity across the board and ensure parity for mental health services. (That's excellent but how much will it cost?)

    We will build a new National Education Service, open to all throughout their lives. We will create universal public childcare to give all children a good start in life, allowing greater sharing of caring responsibilities and removing barriers to women participating in the labour market. We will bring about the progressive restoration of free education for all; and guarantee quality apprenticeships and adult skills training. (Again costs not provided.)

    We will act to protect the future of our planet, with social justice at the heart of our environment policies, and take our fair share of action to meet the Paris climate agreement - starting by getting on track with our Climate Change Act goals. We will accelerate the transition to a low-carbon economy, and drive the expansion of the green industries and jobs of the future, using our National Investment Bank to invest in public and community-owned renewable energy. We will deliver clean energy and curb energy bill rises for households - energy for the 60 million, not the big 6 energy companies. We will defend and extend the environmental protections gained from the EU. (Clean energy means stuff like more electric cars. Who will build the power stations needed to supply this need when everyone gets home and plugs their Nissan Leaf into the mains? Cos the big six energy companies certainly won't be if they know they are going to get screwed.)

    We will rebuild public services and expand democratic participation, put the public back into our economy, give people a real say in their local communities, and increase local and regional democracy. We will rebuild our economy with public investment to deliver wealth for all, across our regions and nations in a genuinely mixed economy. We will act to ‘insource’ our public and local council services, increase access to leisure, arts and sports across the country and expand our publicly-controlled bus network. We will bring our railways into public ownership and build democratic social control over our energy. (That's a great deal of [uncosted?] money.)

    We will build a progressive tax system so that wealth and the highest earners are fairly taxed, act against executive pay excess and shrink the gap between the highest and lowest paid - FTSE 100 CEOs are now paid 183 times the wage of the average UK worker, and Britain’s wages are the most unequal in Europe. We will act to create a more equal society, boost the incomes of the poorest and close the gender pay gap.

    There's other stuff about an equal and just society and foreign policy but that's just puff and I've left it out.

    So, in summary, the electorate will say, that all sounds great but how much is it costing us, where's the money coming from and how am I going to get to work if I can't use my diesel Kuga any more? Cos taxing just a few FTSE CEOs and footballers until the pips squeak* certainly ain't going to do it.

    *In case Jeremy is wondering, anyone earning between approx £100k to £120k has a marginal tax rate of 60% - the highest in Europe. Is that what you mean by fair Jeremy? How much extra money can you take from these people? There's about a 1mn of them by the way, they all vote.
  • cafcfan said:

    Fiiish said:

    cafcfan said:

    Fiiish said:



    As for punishment, it's usually a fine. Small enough not to be devastating but large enough that it'll sting (like speeding fines).

    If they are poor would you be expecting someone else to pay the fine for them?
    If they are rich, are you expecting they are able to dodge the fine through a tax avoidance scheme or because they have friends in the right places?
    No. I'd expect them to pay it otherwise the County Court bailiffs would be round. What was that phrase you used? Ah yes, risible methodology.

    Are you going to answer the question or swerve it?
    I don't expect poor people to be exempt from fines if they break the law. Not sure why you think that would be the case. I just turned your idiotic comment back on you with an equally absurd scenario. But carry on plucking figures out of thin air to justify hammering people in poverty through no fault of their own.
  • cafcfan said:

    If you are dissatisfied with the choice, then turn up and write "you are all tossers" on you ballot box.

    The thing is that does nothing. It just gets logged as a spoilt ballot paper. So no one and, in particular, the candidates and their parties know whether you've made a derogatory remark or just been an idiot and put a cross in too many boxes by mistake.
    It might have some meaning if there was a "none of the above" option for your cross or an official remarks box with the remarks being published so that the politicians would get to see people's angst at first hand.

    (I'm still not voting.)
    Exactly, it gets logged. And if that total figure rises to 20% or so, that constitutes a significant political statement. When 30% or more just don't turn up, it leaves the missing votes open to gratuitous misinterpretation by politicians. Look at how both sides of the Brexit ref. span those missing 30%.

    All that said, I would be all for the suggestions in your second para. if such a law were introduced. Essential quid pro quo.

    It would be interesting to hear from some Aussies about it. If it is seen by so many here as an infringement of freedom, it's interesting how the Aussies went for it, because whatever else might be said about them, compliant and servile are not words often used to describe them.



  • cafcfan said:

    If you are dissatisfied with the choice, then turn up and write "you are all tossers" on you ballot box.

    The thing is that does nothing. It just gets logged as a spoilt ballot paper. So no one and, in particular, the candidates and their parties know whether you've made a derogatory remark or just been an idiot and put a cross in too many boxes by mistake.
    It might have some meaning if there was a "none of the above" option for your cross or an official remarks box with the remarks being published so that the politicians would get to see people's angst at first hand.

    (I'm still not voting.)
    Exactly, it gets logged. And if that total figure rises to 20% or so, that constitutes a significant political statement. When 30% or more just don't turn up, it leaves the missing votes open to gratuitous misinterpretation by politicians. Look at how both sides of the Brexit ref. span those missing 30%.

    All that said, I would be all for the suggestions in your second para. if such a law were introduced. Essential quid pro quo.

    It would be interesting to hear from some Aussies about it. If it is seen by so many here as an infringement of freedom, it's interesting how the Aussies went for it, because whatever else might be said about them, compliant and servile are not words often used to describe them.



    If there is anything in your life you're not happy about - or anything in the lives of people that are important to you - then you really should vote.

    But if everything in your life is fine, you have a great job, working in a stable company, for a high salary; you live in a great home you can easily afford; you have everything you need in terms of essentials, luxuries, holidays and free time; you have good health and you have your future care plans taken care of and funded - then you really should vote.

    Find someone on your ballot paper that you trust to offer the changes, or protection, that you need. And if none of them offer what you want? Then stand. It's a free country. That's the whole point.

    But... if you don't vote, don't moan when it all goes against what you want. Because it will.
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  • Chizz said:


    cafcfan said:

    If you are dissatisfied with the choice, then turn up and write "you are all tossers" on you ballot box.

    The thing is that does nothing. It just gets logged as a spoilt ballot paper. So no one and, in particular, the candidates and their parties know whether you've made a derogatory remark or just been an idiot and put a cross in too many boxes by mistake.
    It might have some meaning if there was a "none of the above" option for your cross or an official remarks box with the remarks being published so that the politicians would get to see people's angst at first hand.

    (I'm still not voting.)
    Exactly, it gets logged. And if that total figure rises to 20% or so, that constitutes a significant political statement. When 30% or more just don't turn up, it leaves the missing votes open to gratuitous misinterpretation by politicians. Look at how both sides of the Brexit ref. span those missing 30%.

    All that said, I would be all for the suggestions in your second para. if such a law were introduced. Essential quid pro quo.

    It would be interesting to hear from some Aussies about it. If it is seen by so many here as an infringement of freedom, it's interesting how the Aussies went for it, because whatever else might be said about them, compliant and servile are not words often used to describe them.



    If there is anything in your life you're not happy about - or anything in the lives of people that are important to you - then you really should vote.

    But if everything in your life is fine, you have a great job, working in a stable company, for a high salary; you live in a great home you can easily afford; you have everything you need in terms of essentials, luxuries, holidays and free time; you have good health and you have your future care plans taken care of and funded - then you really should vote.

    Find someone on your ballot paper that you trust to offer the changes, or protection, that you need. And if none of them offer what you want? Then stand. It's a free country. That's the whole point.

    But... if you don't vote, don't moan when it all goes against what you want. Because it will.
    If only all the woodwork Remainers who admit they didn't vote had followed this eh?!
  • I despair and I'm normally Labour through and through

  • edited May 2017
    Fiiish said:
    When has anyone had to "justify" where their vote is going? I remember when it was considered rude to ask soneobe who they voted for, much like how much money they earned
  • I despair and I'm normally Labour through and through

    Not sure she ever had it but what planet is she on this week!!
  • Rob7Lee said:

    I despair and I'm normally Labour through and through

    Not sure she ever had it but what planet is she on this week!!
    Why say you think net losses are at 50 and then slightly later say 100?
  • edited May 2017
    It's a hard one this. I can't and won't vote for labour. They have a lot of points I agree with regarding the NHS etc, especially as my Mrs is a student nurse.

    The trouble is, is I wouldn't trust corbyn and his band of merry idiots to negotiate a even half decent deal in Brexit. I can't see them making any effort to curb the immigration issue (as generally they're big supporters of it, Diane Abbott said as such). I don't like the idea of them scrapping our nuclear defenses, I don't think the world leaders will take ANY of their current shadow cabinet seriously let alone Corbyn. I can't help that labour are targeting the most vulnerable with unacheivable pledges.

    With me working in construction there's an air of caution with labour and most people I work with wouldn't dream of voting for them. Obviously due to last time they were in charge our industry took an absolute hammering and also as I say because of the immigration issue.

    Personally I'm happy with where I am, I have a good job and workload for the foreseeable, I stand a good chance of having my own place by the time the years done, my Mrs is still receiving her bursary as a student nurse (I'm aware this is due to finish for new starters) and will most likely walk into a job once she's done. So why vote for a party who screwed up my industry last time?

    I will most likely vote Tory but think the political world is crying out for another strong opposition as Labour just aren't cutting it for people such as myself.

    By the way, there's every chance I'm not making sense here. Ive been up since 4.30am and was half asleep on a dlr when I wrote this
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  • Greenie said:

    Fiiish said:
    When has anyone had to "justify" where their vote is going? I remember when it was considered rude to ask soneobe who they voted for, much like how much money they earned
    This has really pissed me off. I'm a lifelong labour voter and until recently a member. Regional chair of a Trade Union and worked for the NHS until I retired late last year. I think my "socialist" credentials are pretty solid.

    I'm struggling to vote labour this time around because I think the leader and his front bench are damned well incompetent and I really would worry if any of them were anywhere near leading the country. I don't agree with Corbyn's stance on an independent nuclear deterrent or his pathetic wishy washy attitude to Brexit which to me should be the rallying point for any sensible politician to make a stand against the lunacy of Article 50.

    I resent the assertion that not voting labour makes me a Tory. It doesn't and never will.

    The horrific thought of a massive conservative majority is what will probably steer my vote not the lecturing by some arrogant tosser on social media.



    Well said SHG, its where I am, how can we trust Corbyn, when he has demonstrated that by appointing/supporting Abbot as his Shadow Home Secretary, how floored his judgment is.
    To be fair to Corbyn he didn't have much choice. Most of the PLP flat out refused to serve in his shadow cabinet so he could only pick from the dregs that were left.
    Yes, I forgot, good shout, even more reason that Corbyn is unelectable.
  • Richard J said:

    Fiiish said:
    When has anyone had to "justify" where their vote is going? I remember when it was considered rude to ask soneobe who they voted for, much like how much money they earned
    This has really pissed me off. I'm a lifelong labour voter and until recently a member. Regional chair of a Trade Union and worked for the NHS until I retired late last year. I think my "socialist" credentials are pretty solid.

    I'm struggling to vote labour this time around because I think the leader and his front bench are damned well incompetent and I really would worry if any of them were anywhere near leading the country. I don't agree with Corbyn's stance on an independent nuclear deterrent or his pathetic wishy washy attitude to Brexit which to me should be the rallying point for any sensible politician to make a stand against the lunacy of Article 50.

    I resent the assertion that not voting labour makes me a Tory. It doesn't and never will.

    The horrific thought of a massive conservative majority is what will probably steer my vote not the lecturing by some arrogant tosser on social media.



    Agree with a lot of this.

    But remember. Unless you are in Islington North Corbyn is not who you are voting for.

    For example my MP is Stella Creasy. I will be proudly voting for her on 8th June as she is an excellent community MP.
    It grates on me whenever this phrase is trotted out, unfortunately we do vote for a PM, not directly, but the majority of people choose the party they vote for because of the leader, to think otherwise is so naive that you may as well be the current leader of the Labour party.
  • One way is to vote for the best individual rather than the party.
    I have often wondered what would happen if the ballot paper also had a 'none of them' box, and that was the vote that got first past the post.
  • The media would like you to believe Corbyn is unelectable, yet he has held his seat since 1986... go figure.
  • A mass Green defection would be fun
  • Greenie said:

    Richard J said:

    Fiiish said:
    When has anyone had to "justify" where their vote is going? I remember when it was considered rude to ask soneobe who they voted for, much like how much money they earned
    This has really pissed me off. I'm a lifelong labour voter and until recently a member. Regional chair of a Trade Union and worked for the NHS until I retired late last year. I think my "socialist" credentials are pretty solid.

    I'm struggling to vote labour this time around because I think the leader and his front bench are damned well incompetent and I really would worry if any of them were anywhere near leading the country. I don't agree with Corbyn's stance on an independent nuclear deterrent or his pathetic wishy washy attitude to Brexit which to me should be the rallying point for any sensible politician to make a stand against the lunacy of Article 50.

    I resent the assertion that not voting labour makes me a Tory. It doesn't and never will.

    The horrific thought of a massive conservative majority is what will probably steer my vote not the lecturing by some arrogant tosser on social media.



    Agree with a lot of this.

    But remember. Unless you are in Islington North Corbyn is not who you are voting for.

    For example my MP is Stella Creasy. I will be proudly voting for her on 8th June as she is an excellent community MP.
    It grates on me whenever this phrase is trotted out, unfortunately we do vote for a PM, not directly, but the majority of people choose the party they vote for because of the leader, to think otherwise is so naive that you may as well be the current leader of the Labour party.
    Yet that party leader can resign (Thatcher, Cameron) and you end up with someone else (Major, May). On that basis you possibly should not base your vote on the current leader of a party.
  • The PLP disappoint me and if anything, their actions over the past couple of years push me away from voting Labour in the future.

    Corbyn was elected by members/affliates/supporters TWICE but because he wasn't good enough for PLP, they deserted the front benches instead of producing a united front behind an elected party leader.

    They've ruined what little chance they had in this election, as well as disillusioned thousands of young voters that were turned onto politics by the policies of Corbyn.

    I have to say I agree with that. I argued with most of my family at the time of Corbyn's appointment saying that he would be crucified at an election, and surely the point of an election is to win it.

    What has got my goat more is the way the PLP (and Mandelson) have completely shafted Corbyn. If you don't like it work within the system of the 'club' you joined or leave it.
  • Leuth said:

    A mass Green defection would be fun

    I read that as a mass green defecation which I thought was taking things too far.
This discussion has been closed.

Roland Out Forever!