Training ground upgrade

Rothko

SL needs investment just for what's there already, that thread on SL earlier this week reminded me, that the main building isn't much different then the one we moved into in 1988. That money needs spending regardless, the wider investment in a cat academy can wait, or you take the Brentford approach. 

Both assets need upgrading to a decent standard, do you spend the money now, or when you get promoted? 

Airman Brown

Rothko said:

SL needs investment just for what's there already, that thread on SL earlier this week reminded me, that the main building isn't much different then the one we moved into in 1988. That money needs spending regardless, the wider investment in a cat academy can wait, or you take the Brentford approach. 

Both assets need upgrading to a decent standard, do you spend the money now, or when you get promoted? 

I agree Sparrows Lane needs it. I'm less certain what you mean about The Valley, which you've referred to before. What is that you think needs urgent investment there?

Addickted

Potholes.

Sage

Sparrows Lane really does need a bit of TCL and an upgrade on general facilities, that is for sure. It’s very tired and looks old. Of course a new building would be perfect and we will need that in future, but that will have to come with a full training ground upgrade. You would hope that TS can negotiate that the price remains the same should he pay for that development.

Category 1 status, I believe, will be important for the club moving forward and should be seriously thought about once we are back in the Championship. Clubs around us in London have category 1 status and we will be left behind in terms of attracting and keeping hold of the best young players. Our reputation helps massively, but being able to keep hold of them and with quality coaches can be the difference between producing a Lapslie and a Gallagher, and I mean no disrespect to Lapslie at all.

killerandflash

The training ground upgrade isn't just about the academy, just as importantly better facilities will benefit the first team

Rothko

Airman Brown said:

Rothko said:

SL needs investment just for what's there already, that thread on SL earlier this week reminded me, that the main building isn't much different then the one we moved into in 1988. That money needs spending regardless, the wider investment in a cat academy can wait, or you take the Brentford approach. 

Both assets need upgrading to a decent standard, do you spend the money now, or when you get promoted? 

I agree Sparrows Lane needs it. I'm less certain what you mean about The Valley, which you've referred to before. What is that you think needs urgent investment there?

On the Valley, it just looks tatty, needs a bit of TLC, concourses look tired, floodlights are knackered, the loos don’t have hot water, the general grime that hasn’t been cleaned, the good old potholes, and lounges feel a bit past it. The major stuff like changing rooms, studios, etc etc can wait to a summer of being promoted to the Premier League, just feel The Valley could do with some love. 

Airman Brown

Sage said:

Sparrows Lane really does need a bit of TCL and an upgrade on general facilities, that is for sure. It’s very tired and looks old. Of course a new building would be perfect and we will need that in future, but that will have to come with a full training ground upgrade. You would hope that TS can negotiate that the price remains the same should he pay for that development.

Category 1 status, I believe, will be important for the club moving forward and should be seriously thought about once we are back in the Championship. Clubs around us in London have category 1 status and we will be left behind in terms of attracting and keeping hold of the best young players. Our reputation helps massively, but being able to keep hold of them and with quality coaches can be the difference between producing a Lapslie and a Gallagher, and I mean no disrespect to Lapslie at all.

I don't believe there is an agreed price for the assets now. In practice the cost of upgrading the facilities to a modern standard is very likely to be greater than the value of the site (without any residential consent). 

killerandflash

Rothko said:

Airman Brown said:

Rothko said:

SL needs investment just for what's there already, that thread on SL earlier this week reminded me, that the main building isn't much different then the one we moved into in 1988. That money needs spending regardless, the wider investment in a cat academy can wait, or you take the Brentford approach. 

Both assets need upgrading to a decent standard, do you spend the money now, or when you get promoted? 

I agree Sparrows Lane needs it. I'm less certain what you mean about The Valley, which you've referred to before. What is that you think needs urgent investment there?

On the Valley, it just looks tatty, needs a bit of TLC, concourses look tired, floodlights are knackered, the loos don’t have hot water, the general grime that hasn’t been cleaned, the good old potholes, and lounges feel a bit past it. The major stuff like changing rooms, studios, etc etc can wait to a summer of being promoted to the Premier League, just feel The Valley could do with some love. 

The changing rooms were upgraded a year or 2 ago, but I agree that the general facilities like the toilets look tired. 

Rothko

killerandflash said:

Rothko said:

Airman Brown said:

Rothko said:

SL needs investment just for what's there already, that thread on SL earlier this week reminded me, that the main building isn't much different then the one we moved into in 1988. That money needs spending regardless, the wider investment in a cat academy can wait, or you take the Brentford approach. 

Both assets need upgrading to a decent standard, do you spend the money now, or when you get promoted? 

I agree Sparrows Lane needs it. I'm less certain what you mean about The Valley, which you've referred to before. What is that you think needs urgent investment there?

On the Valley, it just looks tatty, needs a bit of TLC, concourses look tired, floodlights are knackered, the loos don’t have hot water, the general grime that hasn’t been cleaned, the good old potholes, and lounges feel a bit past it. The major stuff like changing rooms, studios, etc etc can wait to a summer of being promoted to the Premier League, just feel The Valley could do with some love. 

The changing rooms were upgraded a year or 2 ago, but I agree that the general facilities like the toilets look tired. 

They were given a freshen up, but I think the Premier League requirements for size and facilities are a big step up and require a load of space. 

ShootersHillGuru

Some very interesting and knowledgeable views on this thread. @AirmanBrown A question. The capital costs of building the infrastructure at SL, thus bringing up to at least Championship standard would cost x amount. I have no idea what x is. That would at least allow the clubs academy as is, to continue function and produce the amount of players we currently see and benefit from. SL upgraded would also massively benefit the senior aspects of the club. It strikes me that laying those foundations and not perhaps yet seeking Cat 1 would provide essential long term benefits and provide the base for Cat 1 if and when. Let’s assume the capital cost is £5 million. Even, as you posted earlier we are producing saleable youngsters under current conditions. One Joe Gomez could swallow those capital costs. I see a redevelopment of SL as Henry does. Absolutely essential to the TS plan. In fact his plan will fall over without it. I think development now based on capital cost only with no intention of seeking Cat 1 until required completely stacks up as a business case. Or am I missing something.

WSS

I agree with the concern.

Why would RD spend any (significant) money on either of them? And why would TS spend any (significant) money on them either if there wasn't some sort of future purchase already agreed?

Feels like both the training ground and The Valley are in a bit of purgatory away from general maintenance etc.

Rothko

There's no real need to spend on expanding the Valley in the next 10 years I would reckon, 27,000 is probably about right, the missing revenue is on the low quality of hospitality provision, and it depends what you do to sort that out. Move the club offices out of The Valley to a shiny rented office next to the O2 and make space work better in the West stand?

Dippenhall

ShootersHillGuru said:

Some very interesting and knowledgeable views on this thread. @AirmanBrown A question. The capital costs of building the infrastructure at SL, thus bringing up to at least Championship standard would cost x amount. I have no idea what x is. That would at least allow the clubs academy as is, to continue function and produce the amount of players we currently see and benefit from. SL upgraded would also massively benefit the senior aspects of the club. It strikes me that laying those foundations and not perhaps yet seeking Cat 1 would provide essential long term benefits and provide the base for Cat 1 if and when. Let’s assume the capital cost is £5 million. Even, as you posted earlier we are producing saleable youngsters under current conditions. One Joe Gomez could swallow those capital costs. I see a redevelopment of SL as Henry does. Absolutely essential to the TS plan. In fact his plan will fall over without it. I think development now based on capital cost only with no intention of seeking Cat 1 until required completely stacks up as a business case. Or am I missing something.

Agree it's a matter of the business case.  A business will lease a property and pay for all alterations, with consents, and might have to put it back to original spec on vacation.  It's what the business can earn from the alterations while in occupation that counts.

An optimistic business plan could surely make the commercials stack up, if long term security could be negotiated.

happyvalley

Addickted said:

Potholes.

Please,please leave the potholes  as they are. We'll need something to moan about when we are regularly playing in The Champions League.

ShootersHillGuru

Dippenhall said:

ShootersHillGuru said:

Some very interesting and knowledgeable views on this thread. @AirmanBrown A question. The capital costs of building the infrastructure at SL, thus bringing up to at least Championship standard would cost x amount. I have no idea what x is. That would at least allow the clubs academy as is, to continue function and produce the amount of players we currently see and benefit from. SL upgraded would also massively benefit the senior aspects of the club. It strikes me that laying those foundations and not perhaps yet seeking Cat 1 would provide essential long term benefits and provide the base for Cat 1 if and when. Let’s assume the capital cost is £5 million. Even, as you posted earlier we are producing saleable youngsters under current conditions. One Joe Gomez could swallow those capital costs. I see a redevelopment of SL as Henry does. Absolutely essential to the TS plan. In fact his plan will fall over without it. I think development now based on capital cost only with no intention of seeking Cat 1 until required completely stacks up as a business case. Or am I missing something.

Agree it's a matter of the business case.  A business will lease a property and pay for all alterations, with consents, and might have to put it back to original spec on vacation.  It's what the business can earn from the alterations while in occupation that counts.

An optimistic business plan could surely make the commercials stack up, if long term security could be negotiated.

Way outside my knowledge base but a two year programme of capital investment now would allow 13 years under the current lease to recoup the outlay. The crazy prices now for even average young footballers would surely ensure the upgrade being a viable business strategy. Add to that the daily benefits to all the club in office, treatment room and training options makes it a no brainer for me unless I’m massively underestimating the capital outlay of around £5 million.

Cafc43v3r

I have no idea what the lead time would be from TS saying "let's upgrade SL to cat 1/premier league level" to having SL at cat 1/premier league level but I am guessing it would years not months?

Do you plan to start work upon promotion to the championship? What then happens if you get relegated again, do you just down tools and stop work?

I don't think it even makes financial sense if your a championship club because any increase in revenue will be swallowed up in wages.   I doubt may championship clubs make enough operating profit to finance a CAPEX of that amount?

You either want to spend the money, or you don't.  In truth it's probably how much less you'll have to put in down the line, not how much extra you'll get back. 

ShootersHillGuru

Cafc43v3r said:

I have no idea what the lead time would be from TS saying "let's upgrade SL to cat 1/premier league level" to having SL at cat 1/premier league level but I am guessing it would years not months?

Do you plan to start work upon promotion to the championship? What then happens if you get relegated again, do you just down tools and stop work?

I don't think it even makes financial sense if your a championship club because any increase in revenue will be swallowed up in wages.   I doubt may championship clubs make enough operating profit to finance a CAPEX of that amount?

You either want to spend the money, or you don't.  In truth it's probably how much less you'll have to put in down the line, not how much extra you'll get back. 

I obviously don’t think I’m making my point clear. I say upgrade capital investment ASAP. There are many positive spin offs. Over the period of the lease (15 years) sell just two or three academy products at today’s silly money and recoup all your capital outlay. No Cat 1 until Premiership. I’ve got no business brain but I can’t see a downside. 

Airman Brown

ShootersHillGuru said:

Cafc43v3r said:

I have no idea what the lead time would be from TS saying "let's upgrade SL to cat 1/premier league level" to having SL at cat 1/premier league level but I am guessing it would years not months?

Do you plan to start work upon promotion to the championship? What then happens if you get relegated again, do you just down tools and stop work?

I don't think it even makes financial sense if your a championship club because any increase in revenue will be swallowed up in wages.   I doubt may championship clubs make enough operating profit to finance a CAPEX of that amount?

You either want to spend the money, or you don't.  In truth it's probably how much less you'll have to put in down the line, not how much extra you'll get back. 

I obviously don’t think I’m making my point clear. I say upgrade capital investment ASAP. There are many positive spin offs. Over the period of the lease (15 years) sell just two or three academy products at today’s silly money and recoup all your capital outlay. No Cat 1 until Premiership. I’ve got no business brain but I can’t see a downside. 

I agree re capital investment, I just think the revenue cost of category one needs careful evaluation. There’s a view among fans that it can’t be questioned but it should be. That money might be better spent on the first team. It might not.

The profit on selling young players is needed to subsidise the operating loss, which whatever anyone tells you is not going away. You can’t spend it twice!