Sorry chaps, if my 'A Deo et Rege', Addey & Stanhope Grammar School education, plus my Chartered Institution of Civil Engineering Surveyors (ICES) 1990, RICS 1984 (resigned1989), Graduate Diploma in Quantity Surveying 1981 education, is all a bit too much for you. Anyway I've done my best to involve you all in the UEFA 'House of Diversity' debate from here to Cardiff. God bless!
Well let's all celebrate that at the end of this lifelong obsession that Roy has been sharing with us over the last few years, something good is finally going to come of it....
You can't afford to have any shame and try and build a museum on almost no budget @AFKABartram you don't ask, you don't get.
I would have asked for the Museum but having already had extensive but totally fruitless "communication" with Roy's colleague David Allen about some 16mm film he insisted we paid to get transferred to DVD sight unseen and by his choice of film editor I'm not even going to bother to ask.
Clearly Roy and David are able to "communicate" on a higher plane than the rest of us.
It's a real shame as Ben's story is genuinely an interesting part of Charlton's history that the Museum would love to mention but it is lost in the painful writing style used.
@Roy , I (and it would seem some others on this forum) am interested in your story of Ben Odeje, but I think you are assuming your audience all have background knowledge of the subject which would enable us to appreciate the information you are trying to impart. Without that knowledge, I for one am completely puzzled!
If I understand you correctly (please correct / explain as necessary)
1) Ben Odeje was the first black player at Charlton Athletic. That is very interesting; what years was he at CAFC, and what other league teams did he play for? (This will give you an idea of my lack of prior knowledge!)
2) Prior to this, as a schoolboy, he represented England in a match at Wembley, and in so doing was the first black person to play football for England. Well done Ben! I remember all too well the casual racism of the 1950s suffered by Jamaican friends, and it cannot have been easy for him at any level of the game.
3) Another player, Laurie Cunningham, is named as the first black England player in all the official records (although not, it would seem, on all google searches). Was Cunningham the first professional/F.A. team appearance by a black player, whereas Odeje was a schoolboy or some such distinction? In which case probably both Ben and Laurie deserve recognition in their separate ground-breaking ways.
4) Reading between the lines of your posts, am I correct in guessing you are upset because the lack of recognition of Ben’s achievement has happened again at this event you mention in Cardiff?
5) What on earth is this legal case you are now mentioning? Civil or criminal? Who is making the accusation? What are the charges? Who are the defendants?
Thanks Henry. I'll look at the links when I've finished this.
Having spent years doing family history research, I realise that the black population of many large English cities from the 17th century onwards is easily underestimated, as they often had adopted or been give anglicised names, and surviving records do not often mention skin colour. I have sometime noticed references in 18th/19th century naval records and some of the London churches apparently made a point of recording the fact if there was a "mixed marriage".
I'm assuming the current thread refers to the time since the formation of the FA, and the professional game? But Roy's postings are so difficult to fathom!!
Thanks Henry. I'll look at the links when I've finished this.
Having spent years doing family history research, I realise that the black population of many large English cities from the 17th century onwards is easily underestimated, as they often had adopted or been give anglicised names, and surviving records do not often mention skin colour. I have sometime noticed references in 18th/19th century naval records and some of the London churches apparently made a point of recording the fact if there was a "mixed marriage".
I'm assuming the current thread refers to the time since the formation of the FA, and the professional game? But Roy's postings are so difficult to fathom!!
The book "there ain't no black in the union jack" is a good history of the black presence in Britain. As it points out there were black people here before the English.
Arthur Wharton was the first black professional footballer anywhere in the world.
I don't know who Charlton Athletic FC's Chaplain is, but he should be aware of this post and David Allen's correspondence on behalf of former Charlton Athletic FC players, which involves Prince William, President of the English FA. Charlton's Chaplain should also be aware that Charlton Athletic FC fan, The Rev Julie Conalty of Christ Church, Erith has just been promoted to the C of E, Archdeacon of Tonbridge.
@Roy , with the greatest of respect, (and I say that as one of the first jokey responders on this thread), if you took the time to actually explain what the hell you're banging on about, (but in a post that takes less than an afternoon to read and, yes, I'm aware of the irony there!) you might get some sensible responses. We know it's about recognition for Ben Odeje, but beyond that, it's a blooming mystery.
Reading your posts feels like having a conversation with my senile old gran when she thought I was her mate Flo that she knew during the war, so she kept saying stuff like "D'you remember Charlie Perkins? He was a lovely young man. Lovely arse! Ooh, what about that night uptown when we saw that big band play...?" "No gran, I don't. I was born in 1971." Well, that's what I wanted to say, but I never would because that would confuse her more. So we'd let her rattle on about stuff we knew nothing about, saying "Yeah, yeah, ahh, that's lovely!" I think that's kind of happening here, but I've come to the conclusion you need telling. I don't think you're senile like my dear old gran, bless her, I just think you're slightly confused as to the depth of knowledge the good people of Charlton Life have on your crusade. So here it is. Nobody knows what you are talking about. If you explain it in simple coherent sentences, (not riddles - Prince William's lackey's response "100% clear"? What?) and avoid cross contamination with other issues that do nothing but cloud the subject, (Jo Cox? Champions League? The Archdeacon of Tonbridge ffs? What's that got to do with Ben Odeje? Only you know!) then you might get a more sympathetic reaction from some of the people on this site who, frankly have shown time and time again that they will stand up for a good cause, put their hands in their pockets, march, go to frigging Belgium if necessary, but if it's worth it, they'll do it. They are good people. If your cause is a good one, you need to pitch it better or you'll never get support.
So I say this again, and this time I'm being serious:
Well let's all celebrate that at the end of this lifelong obsession that Roy has been sharing with us over the last few years, something good is finally going to come of it....
Henry is gonna claim a team sheet.... :-)
It's Garry Nelson.
Nice to see the Royal Family using 2nd class stamps. Economies have to be made somewhere.
Ain't there an historical thread all about this somewhere in the bowels of Charltonlife? Surely if there is, people who want to be brought up to speed can read that.
I think, in the light of Roy's current thread, that this one should be bumped in order to give some background and clarity to this very interesting subject.
I think he was all set to come on as a sub on one occasion for the first team but didn't for what ever reason and, as it transpired, never in the end made the Charlton first team.
Respect to Roy though for being good enough to represent Charlton at youth level along with Ben and the others some of whom did play at first team level.
In 2016 my colleague David Allen, of Allen David International Entertainments, who is Graham Tutt's agent, wrote to Prince William, President of the English FA, on behalf of myself, and other former Charlton Athletic FC players, regarding our FARE network legal case development, that had won support from the acting Sports Minister David Evennett. Prince William's response via Lieutenant Commander James Benbow/Royal Navy is 100% revealing.
The assassination of Jo Cox MP by a neo-Nazi, on the very same day that England played Wales in the European Championships in France, and at the height of the Brexit debate here in the U.K, realised our worst fears, which we had already shared with Prince William.
Today Real Madrid play Juventus in the Champions League Final in Cardiff, and I've contacted Mermaid Quay - Cardiff Bay to see if UEFA's 'House of Diversity' have included any details of my former Charlton Athletic FC team mate Ben Odeje, who was/is England's 1st black footballer at any level?
Comments
Henry is gonna claim a team sheet.... :-)
I would have asked for the Museum but having already had extensive but totally fruitless "communication" with Roy's colleague David Allen about some 16mm film he insisted we paid to get transferred to DVD sight unseen and by his choice of film editor I'm not even going to bother to ask.
Clearly Roy and David are able to "communicate" on a higher plane than the rest of us.
It's a real shame as Ben's story is genuinely an interesting part of Charlton's history that the Museum would love to mention but it is lost in the painful writing style used.
Now Roy, carry on...
I (and it would seem some others on this forum) am interested in your story of Ben Odeje, but I think you are assuming your audience all have background knowledge of the subject which would enable us to appreciate the information you are trying to impart. Without that knowledge, I for one am completely puzzled!
If I understand you correctly (please correct / explain as necessary)
1) Ben Odeje was the first black player at Charlton Athletic.
That is very interesting; what years was he at CAFC, and what other league teams did he play for?
(This will give you an idea of my lack of prior knowledge!)
2) Prior to this, as a schoolboy, he represented England in a match at Wembley, and in so doing was the first black person to play football for England.
Well done Ben! I remember all too well the casual racism of the 1950s suffered by Jamaican friends, and it cannot have been easy for him at any level of the game.
3) Another player, Laurie Cunningham, is named as the first black England player in all the official records (although not, it would seem, on all google searches).
Was Cunningham the first professional/F.A. team appearance by a black player, whereas Odeje was a schoolboy or some such distinction?
In which case probably both Ben and Laurie deserve recognition in their separate ground-breaking ways.
4) Reading between the lines of your posts, am I correct in guessing you are upset because the lack of recognition of Ben’s achievement has happened again at this event you mention in Cardiff?
5) What on earth is this legal case you are now mentioning?
Civil or criminal? Who is making the accusation? What are the charges? Who are the defendants?
I hope you are able to clarify.
Thank you.
@N01R4M
Viv Anderson was the first black England international.
There have been black players in English football from the 19th Century
http://www.whoateallthepies.tv/lists/47778/10-black-pioneers-in-british-football.html
Having spent years doing family history research, I realise that the black population of many large English cities from the 17th century onwards is easily underestimated, as they often had adopted or been give anglicised names, and surviving records do not often mention skin colour. I have sometime noticed references in 18th/19th century naval records and some of the London churches apparently made a point of recording the fact if there was a "mixed marriage".
I'm assuming the current thread refers to the time since the formation of the FA, and the professional game? But Roy's postings are so difficult to fathom!!
Arthur Wharton was the first black professional footballer anywhere in the world.
Reading your posts feels like having a conversation with my senile old gran when she thought I was her mate Flo that she knew during the war, so she kept saying stuff like
"D'you remember Charlie Perkins? He was a lovely young man. Lovely arse! Ooh, what about that night uptown when we saw that big band play...?"
"No gran, I don't. I was born in 1971." Well, that's what I wanted to say, but I never would because that would confuse her more. So we'd let her rattle on about stuff we knew nothing about, saying "Yeah, yeah, ahh, that's lovely!"
I think that's kind of happening here, but I've come to the conclusion you need telling. I don't think you're senile like my dear old gran, bless her, I just think you're slightly confused as to the depth of knowledge the good people of Charlton Life have on your crusade.
So here it is.
Nobody knows what you are talking about.
If you explain it in simple coherent sentences, (not riddles - Prince William's lackey's response "100% clear"? What?) and avoid cross contamination with other issues that do nothing but cloud the subject, (Jo Cox? Champions League? The Archdeacon of Tonbridge ffs? What's that got to do with Ben Odeje? Only you know!) then you might get a more sympathetic reaction from some of the people on this site who, frankly have shown time and time again that they will stand up for a good cause, put their hands in their pockets, march, go to frigging Belgium if necessary, but if it's worth it, they'll do it. They are good people.
If your cause is a good one, you need to pitch it better or you'll never get support.
So I say this again, and this time I'm being serious:
No idea what's it about. Ben Odeje ? nop does'nt ring a bell.
Nice to see the Royal Family using 2nd class stamps. Economies have to be made somewhere.
Ain't there an historical thread all about this somewhere in the bowels of Charltonlife? Surely if there is, people who want to be brought up to speed can read that.
I now realise I didn't miss anything.
Yours Befuddledly
Bryan McConfused from Confused-ville, Kent
Ps - Can I have that 15 minutes of my life back...I was expecting some kind of epiphany at the end of this
I think he was all set to come on as a sub on one occasion for the first team but didn't for what ever reason and, as it transpired, never in the end made the Charlton first team.
Respect to Roy though for being good enough to represent Charlton at youth level along with Ben and the others some of whom did play at first team level.