I bought season tickets for myself and my 11 yr old yesterday (East Stand this time). I wasn't going to, but the football I've seen this year has made me think it's going to be hard to stay away.
It's a tricky decision for many, in particular those who are boycotting.
[Apologies for reposting this from a different thread, but I think it's more relevant in this one. And apologies for banging on about Jimmy Seed again]
To @mascot88@ElfsborgAddick and many others [who are staying away], I just say this. I was brought up supporting Millwall because of the way the owners of the club treated Jimmy Seed. Later on I followed Millwall, Spurs, Sheffield Wednesday, Charlton (JS's clubs) and QPR (because I lived close to Loftus Rd). But I always knew that Charlton was the club he cared most about (and it was our 'family club') but I knew they let him down, so steered clear of full support. In that time I wrote the short book about his time at Charlton, but only very rarely went to matches. I was basically letting the behaviour of owners of the club (who are NOT the club) spoil my enjoyment of football for more than 40 years! It took the death of my mum (who always loved Charlton) to flick a switch somewhere and the rest is (recent) history. Much as I'm enjoying bringing the family back into the fold, I can't help feeling gutted at the great times and emotions missed. I enjoyed the play-off final from afar, but I wasn't there. I was delighted about the return to the Valley, but I wasn't there. I cheated myself out of great times and great memories. I trying to make up for lost time now. You guys are true Charlton fans and I totally respect your motives for staying away. But the old club is not Duchatelet and Meire. Don't let them take away your great times. Great occasions missed will be missed forever. Life is very short.
Fair point.
But a large part of me staying away is, the woeful football being served up during the Duchebag era, so no memories of this particular period I'd care to retain and quite frankly I didn't want to waste my money either.
Most of my charlton memories are of the past and I'll still retain those, I'd rather not spoil that at the moment.
Could this season be different, lets hope so but it'll take more than a handful of games to lure me back, if at all.
Oh yes, can understand not wanting to go at that time for all sorts of reasons. The football is clearly more entertaining now, but if you don't want to go back at all, even with better football being played and matches being won, is it purely because of the owners, or have you just lost interest? But you wouldn't be on this forum if that was the case?
I bought season tickets for myself and my 11 yr old yesterday (East Stand this time). I wasn't going to, but the football I've seen this year has made me think it's going to be hard to stay away.
It's a tricky decision for many, in particular those who are boycotting.
[Apologies for reposting this from a different thread, but I think it's more relevant in this one. And apologies for banging on about Jimmy Seed again]
To @mascot88@ElfsborgAddick and many others [who are staying away], I just say this. I was brought up supporting Millwall because of the way the owners of the club treated Jimmy Seed. Later on I followed Millwall, Spurs, Sheffield Wednesday, Charlton (JS's clubs) and QPR (because I lived close to Loftus Rd). But I always knew that Charlton was the club he cared most about (and it was our 'family club') but I knew they let him down, so steered clear of full support. In that time I wrote the short book about his time at Charlton, but only very rarely went to matches. I was basically letting the behaviour of owners of the club (who are NOT the club) spoil my enjoyment of football for more than 40 years! It took the death of my mum (who always loved Charlton) to flick a switch somewhere and the rest is (recent) history. Much as I'm enjoying bringing the family back into the fold, I can't help feeling gutted at the great times and emotions missed. I enjoyed the play-off final from afar, but I wasn't there. I was delighted about the return to the Valley, but I wasn't there. I cheated myself out of great times and great memories. I trying to make up for lost time now. You guys are true Charlton fans and I totally respect your motives for staying away. But the old club is not Duchatelet and Meire. Don't let them take away your great times. Great occasions missed will be missed forever. Life is very short.
Well said Jim, I agree with a lot of that.
I have only returned to the fold since Premier relegation, as I've sought to introduce my son to the mad club his grandad would bang on about. I missed most of the Prem highlights through distance and lack of time but I have regaled him of play-offs, Full Members cup finals, exiles and 1980's away day trains - and he wants a taste of that and I am not going to deny him the chance of those experiences.
To those who say the drop in attendances / protests are about results - yes, of course they are. 99.9% of the world's football club's attendances are influenced by the on field success. BUT... we must remember the underlying reason why results have suffered. IF the network idea had worked out, IF money hadn't been wasted (and not added to debt), IF the SMT hadn't insulted the fans then we'd probably be happy bunnies as I'm sure we'd be more successful on-field too.
The majority of supporters want to see their team compete, hopefully win more than they lose and see a good game into the bargain - it IS a sporting club after all. To those who say it's NOT about the team performance, but about being a 'family' club be aware that is very close to saying "I don't care about the results, just about the dancing" as Dr Evil once said "We're not so different, you and I". People need to be honest about their protests: it IS about results but also about WHY those results are so bad - if the WHY is being fixed, then the results should reflect that; to say that the results are unimportant makes it look like a vendetta.
Personally, I still want them gone, but if they have changed their MO, even temporarily, which has resulted in an upturn in on-field activities I will revel in whatever success I can get as life is too short.
Thought so. Rule one of working with colleagues. If their team lost they are fair game. I bet there are even Leyton orient fans giving it large to West Ham fans at the moment. Trying to fall back on the league you are in if it is higher than the other team is a weakness that provokes scorn and more piss taking.
That's not, quiet, how it worked in any of the places I worked. The ridicule is only acceptable if the defeat is to a comparable team, unless it's a big defeat and the other chap supports them.
For example, when we were in the Prem and we lost to Man Utd (back when Man Utd were good) no one would bother to bring it up. If we lost to Ipswich/Bolton/ Watford etc. then fair enough. Same as we can't crow about beating Northampton 4-1 at home.
However, I have heard the response (not to me as I've worked from home since before we fell into the third division in 2009) "Yeah whatever. Remind me what division do your lot play in?"
The ridicule from other sides fans is, also, relative to the clubs status. My boss in my last job was a Chelsea fan and I came in early to decorate his desk when we beat them. Dito when Lisbie scored a hat-trick against Liverpool - I printed a poster of him and hung it behind the desk of the manager that was a Liverpool fan. All I got from these two was a sly smile and offers of tea all day when they beat us.
5 matches into a 46 game season isn't enough for me personally, granted we've made a good start but we are thin, IF a couple of injuries were to happen i don't now how we would get on, i also don't believe we will win the league, 2nd possibly but i think we will get playoffs.
however a friend is away so using his season ticket on Saturday, may purchase something in the ground but the way i see it its better to spend £5 on a pie and a pint instead of £20.00 on a match ticket, or £325 over a season which is what my old seat would of cost.
I Don't think the circus upstairs have learnt a thing or will ever change - can you really see this guy spending money in the championship ( relegated by xmas i feel ), just think they have got v lucky with karl and some of the players turning out alright.
letting 3 strikers go and getting someone in on loan till January who was surplus to requirements in a rangers side, when our main striker is a regular international says a LOT imo.
I guess you have been away a long time if you think you can buy a pie AND a pint for a fiver!
Better getting a season ticket at £10 a match and buying nothing IMO.
I bought season tickets for myself and my 11 yr old yesterday (East Stand this time). I wasn't going to, but the football I've seen this year has made me think it's going to be hard to stay away.
It's a tricky decision for many, in particular those who are boycotting.
[Apologies for reposting this from a different thread, but I think it's more relevant in this one. And apologies for banging on about Jimmy Seed again]
To @mascot88@ElfsborgAddick and many others [who are staying away], I just say this. I was brought up supporting Millwall because of the way the owners of the club treated Jimmy Seed. Later on I followed Millwall, Spurs, Sheffield Wednesday, Charlton (JS's clubs) and QPR (because I lived close to Loftus Rd). But I always knew that Charlton was the club he cared most about (and it was our 'family club') but I knew they let him down, so steered clear of full support. In that time I wrote the short book about his time at Charlton, but only very rarely went to matches. I was basically letting the behaviour of owners of the club (who are NOT the club) spoil my enjoyment of football for more than 40 years! It took the death of my mum (who always loved Charlton) to flick a switch somewhere and the rest is (recent) history. Much as I'm enjoying bringing the family back into the fold, I can't help feeling gutted at the great times and emotions missed. I enjoyed the play-off final from afar, but I wasn't there. I was delighted about the return to the Valley, but I wasn't there. I cheated myself out of great times and great memories. I trying to make up for lost time now. You guys are true Charlton fans and I totally respect your motives for staying away. But the old club is not Duchatelet and Meire. Don't let them take away your great times. Great occasions missed will be missed forever. Life is very short.
Well said Jim, I agree with a lot of that.
I have only returned to the fold since Premier relegation, as I've sought to introduce my son to the mad club his grandad would bang on about. I missed most of the Prem highlights through distance and lack of time but I have regaled him of play-offs, Full Members cup finals, exiles and 1980's away day trains - and he wants a taste of that and I am not going to deny him the chance of those experiences.
To those who say the drop in attendances / protests are about results - yes, of course they are. 99.9% of the world's football club's attendances are influenced by the on field success. BUT... we must remember the underlying reason why results have suffered. IF the network idea had worked out, IF money hadn't been wasted (and not added to debt), IF the SMT hadn't insulted the fans then we'd probably be happy bunnies as I'm sure we'd be more successful on-field too.
The majority of supporters want to see their team compete, hopefully win more than they lose and see a good game into the bargain - it IS a sporting club after all. To those who say it's NOT about the team performance, but about being a 'family' club be aware that is very close to saying "I don't care about the results, just about the dancing" as Dr Evil once said "We're not so different, you and I". People need to be honest about their protests: it IS about results but also about WHY those results are so bad - if the WHY is being fixed, then the results should reflect that; to say that the results are unimportant makes it look like a vendetta.
Personally, I still want them gone, but if they have changed their MO, even temporarily, which has resulted in an upturn in on-field activities I will revel in whatever success I can get as life is too short.
I know you used that number as an indication rather than a stat but there has been a lot of academic research into the reasons for trends in attendances (some by me on my MBA) but even though many people will not continue to follow a team with reducing success on the pitch, there are many that will.
In fact the whole idea of increasing attendances in the event of promotion suggest that, if anything, the results (of the expectation of them) are inversely proportional to attendances. I suspect that a quick calculation based on attendances per point in the Premier League, compared with the Championship, would suggest that for most teams losing (in the higher division) brings in more fans.
When I did my dissertation there was no consideration for how the fans felt about the owners - it just wasn't a factor, but football has changed a lot in the last two decades. Having said that we have had rubbish owners in the past, and in reality I only remember a few years when those running the club could afford to buy decent players. This is the first time I remember us (or any other club) having owners that can afford to buy success but choose not to do so. It feels more frustrating because there are a handful of high profile clubs where the owners have changed the club's status, maybe permanently, by spending lots and lots of money.
Even though the lessons learned don't seem to stop the Belgians making more mistakes, there is no training course for running a football club and they do seem to be doing a better job of it now that when they arrived. Even experience doesn't guarantee success. Just looking at us in 2006 most people heralded us as a model club. Richard Murray and Peter Varney, along with Alan Curbishley were believed to be running the club very sensibly and looked to have 'cracked it'. Forward on two years and Curbishley had left, we had been relegated and Murray and Varney had overseen a year in which Pardew had been allowed to spend something like six years income (ignoring TV revenue) on signing players that, mostly, failed, and left us with a squad that saw us relegated to the third division the following season after Varney had left. Put into context this does show that either luck plays a big part in football (and Murray's ran out) or it is just not easy to be successful without spending a fortune in the process - something that it could be argued we did in 2007/8 - from memory we spend £12.5m on players when the teams in the Premier League were getting £20m a season!
There is an assumption that new owners will being success on the pitch. There is a belief that as soon as the Belgians leave we will climb the divisions and take our 'rightful' place in the Premier League. I'm not saying that won't happen but if we were offered a similar set up to Portsmouth as long as it would mean two relegations and a further three years to get back to where we are, and no guarantee of getting back into the Championship for a decade or two, I'm not so sure there would be that many takers. I'm also not so sure that the attendances would be any higher in the long term.
I'm more than happy for a change of ownership, I don't believe that this is our rightful place in the league structure, however, the last time we were in this division, when Richard Murray was warning of the money running out, I, genuinely feared for the future of the club and believed that it was relegation or administration. As much as I hate KM, I'm not sure I'd swap what we have for that.
Also, it has become much more fun watching the team this season, not only the wins but the football is better than I remember since we were in the Premier League.
I have only returned to the fold since Premier relegation, as I've sought to introduce my son to the mad club his grandad would bang on about. I missed most of the Prem highlights through distance and lack of time but I have regaled him of play-offs, Full Members cup finals, exiles and 1980's away day trains - and he wants a taste of that and I am not going to deny him the chance of those experiences.
To those who say the drop in attendances / protests are about results - yes, of course they are. 99.9% of the world's football club's attendances are influenced by the on field success. BUT... we must remember the underlying reason why results have suffered. IF the network idea had worked out, IF money hadn't been wasted (and not added to debt), IF the SMT hadn't insulted the fans then we'd probably be happy bunnies as I'm sure we'd be more successful on-field too.
The majority of supporters want to see their team compete, hopefully win more than they lose and see a good game into the bargain - it IS a sporting club after all. To those who say it's NOT about the team performance, but about being a 'family' club be aware that is very close to saying "I don't care about the results, just about the dancing" as Dr Evil once said "We're not so different, you and I". People need to be honest about their protests: it IS about results but also about WHY those results are so bad - if the WHY is being fixed, then the results should reflect that; to say that the results are unimportant makes it look like a vendetta.
Personally, I still want them gone, but if they have changed their MO, even temporarily, which has resulted in an upturn in on-field activities I will revel in whatever success I can get as life is too short.
I know you used that number as an indication rather than a stat but there has been a lot of academic research into the reasons for trends in attendances (some by me on my MBA) but even though many people will not continue to follow a team with reducing success on the pitch, there are many that will.
In fact the whole idea of increasing attendances in the event of promotion suggest that, if anything, the results (of the expectation of them) are inversely proportional to attendances. I suspect that a quick calculation based on attendances per point in the Premier League, compared with the Championship, would suggest that for most teams losing (in the higher division) brings in more fans.
When I did my dissertation there was no consideration for how the fans felt about the owners - it just wasn't a factor, but football has changed a lot in the last two decades. Having said that we have had rubbish owners in the past, and in reality I only remember a few years when those running the club could afford to buy decent players. This is the first time I remember us (or any other club) having owners that can afford to buy success but choose not to do so. It feels more frustrating because there are a handful of high profile clubs where the owners have changed the club's status, maybe permanently, by spending lots and lots of money.
Even though the lessons learned don't seem to stop the Belgians making more mistakes, there is no training course for running a football club and they do seem to be doing a better job of it now that when they arrived. Even experience doesn't guarantee success. Just looking at us in 2006 most people heralded us as a model club. Richard Murray and Peter Varney, along with Alan Curbishley were believed to be running the club very sensibly and looked to have 'cracked it'. Forward on two years and Curbishley had left, we had been relegated and Murray and Varney had overseen a year in which Pardew had been allowed to spend something like six years income (ignoring TV revenue) on signing players that, mostly, failed, and left us with a squad that saw us relegated to the third division the following season after Varney had left. Put into context this does show that either luck plays a big part in football (and Murray's ran out) or it is just not easy to be successful without spending a fortune in the process - something that it could be argued we did in 2007/8 - from memory we spend £12.5m on players when the teams in the Premier League were getting £20m a season!
There is an assumption that new owners will being success on the pitch. There is a belief that as soon as the Belgians leave we will climb the divisions and take our 'rightful' place in the Premier League. I'm not saying that won't happen but if we were offered a similar set up to Portsmouth as long as it would mean two relegations and a further three years to get back to where we are, and no guarantee of getting back into the Championship for a decade or two, I'm not so sure there would be that many takers. I'm also not so sure that the attendances would be any higher in the long term.
I'm more than happy for a change of ownership, I don't believe that this is our rightful place in the league structure, however, the last time we were in this division, when Richard Murray was warning of the money running out, I, genuinely feared for the future of the club and believed that it was relegation or administration. As much as I hate KM, I'm not sure I'd swap what we have for that.
Also, it has become much more fun watching the team this season, not only the wins but the football is better than I remember since we were in the Premier League.
Indeed it was an indication rather than a fact - and I am one one of those that have seen far too many games over the last decade than the results should warrant. I used to follow non-league a lot to get my fix when away from the Valley and I know people who still follow those teams even after multiple relegations/liquidation/reformation; a football fan is a 'unique' being (pun intended) and I think one of the major misunderstandings by the present mob.
I was just trying to make the point that results DO matter to the majority and any owner, however much they may be despised, WILL be forgiven by a substantial number of fans if they bring success
I bought season tickets for myself and my 11 yr old yesterday (East Stand this time). I wasn't going to, but the football I've seen this year has made me think it's going to be hard to stay away.
It's a tricky decision for many, in particular those who are boycotting.
[Apologies for reposting this from a different thread, but I think it's more relevant in this one. And apologies for banging on about Jimmy Seed again]
To @mascot88@ElfsborgAddick and many others [who are staying away], I just say this. I was brought up supporting Millwall because of the way the owners of the club treated Jimmy Seed. Later on I followed Millwall, Spurs, Sheffield Wednesday, Charlton (JS's clubs) and QPR (because I lived close to Loftus Rd). But I always knew that Charlton was the club he cared most about (and it was our 'family club') but I knew they let him down, so steered clear of full support. In that time I wrote the short book about his time at Charlton, but only very rarely went to matches. I was basically letting the behaviour of owners of the club (who are NOT the club) spoil my enjoyment of football for more than 40 years! It took the death of my mum (who always loved Charlton) to flick a switch somewhere and the rest is (recent) history. Much as I'm enjoying bringing the family back into the fold, I can't help feeling gutted at the great times and emotions missed. I enjoyed the play-off final from afar, but I wasn't there. I was delighted about the return to the Valley, but I wasn't there. I cheated myself out of great times and great memories. I trying to make up for lost time now. You guys are true Charlton fans and I totally respect your motives for staying away. But the old club is not Duchatelet and Meire. Don't let them take away your great times. Great occasions missed will be missed forever. Life is very short.
Well said Jim, I agree with a lot of that.
I have only returned to the fold since Premier relegation, as I've sought to introduce my son to the mad club his grandad would bang on about. I missed most of the Prem highlights through distance and lack of time but I have regaled him of play-offs, Full Members cup finals, exiles and 1980's away day trains - and he wants a taste of that and I am not going to deny him the chance of those experiences.
To those who say the drop in attendances / protests are about results - yes, of course they are. 99.9% of the world's football club's attendances are influenced by the on field success. BUT... we must remember the underlying reason why results have suffered. IF the network idea had worked out, IF money hadn't been wasted (and not added to debt), IF the SMT hadn't insulted the fans then we'd probably be happy bunnies as I'm sure we'd be more successful on-field too.
The majority of supporters want to see their team compete, hopefully win more than they lose and see a good game into the bargain - it IS a sporting club after all. To those who say it's NOT about the team performance, but about being a 'family' club be aware that is very close to saying "I don't care about the results, just about the dancing" as Dr Evil once said "We're not so different, you and I". People need to be honest about their protests: it IS about results but also about WHY those results are so bad - if the WHY is being fixed, then the results should reflect that; to say that the results are unimportant makes it look like a vendetta.
Personally, I still want them gone, but if they have changed their MO, even temporarily, which has resulted in an upturn in on-field activities I will revel in whatever success I can get as life is too short.
As a continuing boycotter, I feel I ought to reply to this.
I understand from friends that who still regularly attend games that the football played by Charlton this season has, so far, been a marked improvement on last season and most feel confident that we could challenge seriously for promotion this time. Good. However don't forget that after three and a half seasons of RD they feel confident that we could mount a challenge to get Charlton back to where we were when he arrived. Virtually all of people approving of the upturn in performances are worried by the lack of striker options if we get a injury in that area. This is despite that RD is by far and away the richest owner we have ever had and last season he sold a striker for £11,000,000 and a fit again Igor Vetokele who was scoring for fun in Belgium in the spring was contracted to Charlton until the end of this season. Most owners in that position who were determined to get an out and out push for promotion would have made sure that position was well and truly covered. If we were to achieve promotion, does anyone on here seriously believe he is going to make the investments necessary to enable us to compete in the Championship? Remember that he in on record as saying that winning games is not important.
It may be that Robinson has done some good business in the transfer market but if he has, it will be despite the owner but not because him.
Roland clearly believes supporters should shut up and do as they are told. To that end he appointed and continues to support a chief executive at Charlton who is grotesquely ill suited for the role and who believes that supporters should never challenge the her or " The Owner " about any of their decisions despite Charlton dropping to one of their worst seasons for eighty years.
Of course, gates are mainly dependent on results. In my case this is the fourth time that Charlton have dropped to the 3rd tier whilst I have supported the club. During the first three times I continued to regularly attend matches both home and away in the hope that brighter days were not too far away. However I cannot support a club that has no ambition to seriously challenge and I believe even if promotion were to achieved this year then, under RD's stewardship, we will merely be treading water until the next relegation.
I bought season tickets for myself and my 11 yr old yesterday (East Stand this time). I wasn't going to, but the football I've seen this year has made me think it's going to be hard to stay away.
It's a tricky decision for many, in particular those who are boycotting.
[Apologies for reposting this from a different thread, but I think it's more relevant in this one. And apologies for banging on about Jimmy Seed again]
To @mascot88@ElfsborgAddick and many others [who are staying away], I just say this. I was brought up supporting Millwall because of the way the owners of the club treated Jimmy Seed. Later on I followed Millwall, Spurs, Sheffield Wednesday, Charlton (JS's clubs) and QPR (because I lived close to Loftus Rd). But I always knew that Charlton was the club he cared most about (and it was our 'family club') but I knew they let him down, so steered clear of full support. In that time I wrote the short book about his time at Charlton, but only very rarely went to matches. I was basically letting the behaviour of owners of the club (who are NOT the club) spoil my enjoyment of football for more than 40 years! It took the death of my mum (who always loved Charlton) to flick a switch somewhere and the rest is (recent) history. Much as I'm enjoying bringing the family back into the fold, I can't help feeling gutted at the great times and emotions missed. I enjoyed the play-off final from afar, but I wasn't there. I was delighted about the return to the Valley, but I wasn't there. I cheated myself out of great times and great memories. I trying to make up for lost time now. You guys are true Charlton fans and I totally respect your motives for staying away. But the old club is not Duchatelet and Meire. Don't let them take away your great times. Great occasions missed will be missed forever. Life is very short.
Well said Jim, I agree with a lot of that.
I have only returned to the fold since Premier relegation, as I've sought to introduce my son to the mad club his grandad would bang on about. I missed most of the Prem highlights through distance and lack of time but I have regaled him of play-offs, Full Members cup finals, exiles and 1980's away day trains - and he wants a taste of that and I am not going to deny him the chance of those experiences.
To those who say the drop in attendances / protests are about results - yes, of course they are. 99.9% of the world's football club's attendances are influenced by the on field success. BUT... we must remember the underlying reason why results have suffered. IF the network idea had worked out, IF money hadn't been wasted (and not added to debt), IF the SMT hadn't insulted the fans then we'd probably be happy bunnies as I'm sure we'd be more successful on-field too.
The majority of supporters want to see their team compete, hopefully win more than they lose and see a good game into the bargain - it IS a sporting club after all. To those who say it's NOT about the team performance, but about being a 'family' club be aware that is very close to saying "I don't care about the results, just about the dancing" as Dr Evil once said "We're not so different, you and I". People need to be honest about their protests: it IS about results but also about WHY those results are so bad - if the WHY is being fixed, then the results should reflect that; to say that the results are unimportant makes it look like a vendetta.
Personally, I still want them gone, but if they have changed their MO, even temporarily, which has resulted in an upturn in on-field activities I will revel in whatever success I can get as life is too short.
As a continuing boycotter, I feel I ought to reply to this.
I understand from friends that who still regularly attend games that the football played by Charlton this season has, so far, been a marked improvement on last season and most feel confident that we could challenge seriously for promotion this time. Good. However don't forget that after three and a half seasons of RD they feel confident that we could mount a challenge to get Charlton back to where we were when he arrived. Virtually all of people approving of the upturn in performances are worried by the lack of striker options if we get a injury in that area. This is despite that RD is by far and away the richest owner we have ever had and last season he sold a striker for £11,000,000 and a fit again Igor Vetokele who was scoring for fun in Belgium in the spring was contracted to Charlton until the end of this season. Most owners in that position who were determined to get an out and out push for promotion would have made sure that position was well and truly covered. If we were to achieve promotion, does anyone on here seriously believe he is going to make the investments necessary to enable us to compete in the Championship? Remember that he in on record as saying that winning games is not important.
It may be that Robinson has done some good business in the transfer market but if he has, it will be despite the owner but not because him.
Roland clearly believes supporters should shut up and do as they are told. To that end he appointed and continues to support a chief executive at Charlton who is grotesquely ill suited for the role and who believes that supporters should never challenge the her or " The Owner " about any of their decisions despite Charlton dropping to one of their worst seasons for eighty years.
Of course, gates are mainly dependent on results. In my case this is the fourth time that Charlton have dropped to the 3rd tier whilst I have supported the club. During the first three times I continued to regularly attend matches both home and away in the hope that brighter days were not too far away. However I cannot support a club that has no ambition to seriously challenge and I believe even if promotion were to achieved this year then, under RD's stewardship, we will merely be treading water until the next relegation.
I don't disagree with any of this. But I do feel in some sort of fairness, that if the owner is responsible for the last 3 years shambles with managers and players (he was), then he is also responsible for appointing the current manager, who then brought in the current players. We can't honestly say he is responsible for all the bad appointments and not responsible for the good appointments, even if it sticks in our throats to say so.
I'll never like RD/KM for what they did, but I don't think their actions were out of mailce. I think it was because they were misguided, lacking in English football knowledge and would not admit it. I know they've not issued an official apology, but to me it was some sort of breakthrough when KM admitted at the Trust meeting last April, that the fans were staying away because of them and not simply because of relegation. It was the first time I've spoken to her ( and there have been plenty), that I believed that she was no longer in denial.
I bought season tickets for myself and my 11 yr old yesterday (East Stand this time). I wasn't going to, but the football I've seen this year has made me think it's going to be hard to stay away.
It's a tricky decision for many, in particular those who are boycotting.
[Apologies for reposting this from a different thread, but I think it's more relevant in this one. And apologies for banging on about Jimmy Seed again]
To @mascot88@ElfsborgAddick and many others [who are staying away], I just say this. I was brought up supporting Millwall because of the way the owners of the club treated Jimmy Seed. Later on I followed Millwall, Spurs, Sheffield Wednesday, Charlton (JS's clubs) and QPR (because I lived close to Loftus Rd). But I always knew that Charlton was the club he cared most about (and it was our 'family club') but I knew they let him down, so steered clear of full support. In that time I wrote the short book about his time at Charlton, but only very rarely went to matches. I was basically letting the behaviour of owners of the club (who are NOT the club) spoil my enjoyment of football for more than 40 years! It took the death of my mum (who always loved Charlton) to flick a switch somewhere and the rest is (recent) history. Much as I'm enjoying bringing the family back into the fold, I can't help feeling gutted at the great times and emotions missed. I enjoyed the play-off final from afar, but I wasn't there. I was delighted about the return to the Valley, but I wasn't there. I cheated myself out of great times and great memories. I trying to make up for lost time now. You guys are true Charlton fans and I totally respect your motives for staying away. But the old club is not Duchatelet and Meire. Don't let them take away your great times. Great occasions missed will be missed forever. Life is very short.
Well said Jim, I agree with a lot of that.
I have only returned to the fold since Premier relegation, as I've sought to introduce my son to the mad club his grandad would bang on about. I missed most of the Prem highlights through distance and lack of time but I have regaled him of play-offs, Full Members cup finals, exiles and 1980's away day trains - and he wants a taste of that and I am not going to deny him the chance of those experiences.
To those who say the drop in attendances / protests are about results - yes, of course they are. 99.9% of the world's football club's attendances are influenced by the on field success. BUT... we must remember the underlying reason why results have suffered. IF the network idea had worked out, IF money hadn't been wasted (and not added to debt), IF the SMT hadn't insulted the fans then we'd probably be happy bunnies as I'm sure we'd be more successful on-field too.
The majority of supporters want to see their team compete, hopefully win more than they lose and see a good game into the bargain - it IS a sporting club after all. To those who say it's NOT about the team performance, but about being a 'family' club be aware that is very close to saying "I don't care about the results, just about the dancing" as Dr Evil once said "We're not so different, you and I". People need to be honest about their protests: it IS about results but also about WHY those results are so bad - if the WHY is being fixed, then the results should reflect that; to say that the results are unimportant makes it look like a vendetta.
Personally, I still want them gone, but if they have changed their MO, even temporarily, which has resulted in an upturn in on-field activities I will revel in whatever success I can get as life is too short.
As a continuing boycotter, I feel I ought to reply to this.
I understand from friends that who still regularly attend games that the football played by Charlton this season has, so far, been a marked improvement on last season and most feel confident that we could challenge seriously for promotion this time. Good. However don't forget that after three and a half seasons of RD they feel confident that we could mount a challenge to get Charlton back to where we were when he arrived. Virtually all of people approving of the upturn in performances are worried by the lack of striker options if we get a injury in that area. This is despite that RD is by far and away the richest owner we have ever had and last season he sold a striker for £11,000,000 and a fit again Igor Vetokele who was scoring for fun in Belgium in the spring was contracted to Charlton until the end of this season. Most owners in that position who were determined to get an out and out push for promotion would have made sure that position was well and truly covered. If we were to achieve promotion, does anyone on here seriously believe he is going to make the investments necessary to enable us to compete in the Championship? Remember that he in on record as saying that winning games is not important.
It may be that Robinson has done some good business in the transfer market but if he has, it will be despite the owner but not because him.
Roland clearly believes supporters should shut up and do as they are told. To that end he appointed and continues to support a chief executive at Charlton who is grotesquely ill suited for the role and who believes that supporters should never challenge the her or " The Owner " about any of their decisions despite Charlton dropping to one of their worst seasons for eighty years.
Of course, gates are mainly dependent on results. In my case this is the fourth time that Charlton have dropped to the 3rd tier whilst I have supported the club. During the first three times I continued to regularly attend matches both home and away in the hope that brighter days were not too far away. However I cannot support a club that has no ambition to seriously challenge and I believe even if promotion were to achieved this year then, under RD's stewardship, we will merely be treading water until the next relegation.
Everybody agrees with that. Hardly any money was spent, and neither RD or Driesen scouted the players.
I don't really care if RD 'believes supporters should shut up and do as they are told'. They clearly won't, and neither will I. Him believing that won't stop me watching my team (it's not his. He's just borrowed it temporarily).
But I get your point that he lacks ambition for the club. And yes, to survive in the Championship, let alone get promoted from it, will almost certainly take more investment. It didn't back in my grandad's day. He won consecutive promotions and finished second in Div One with only a few changes, but I guess times are different now.
I bought season tickets for myself and my 11 yr old yesterday (East Stand this time). I wasn't going to, but the football I've seen this year has made me think it's going to be hard to stay away.
It's a tricky decision for many, in particular those who are boycotting.
[Apologies for reposting this from a different thread, but I think it's more relevant in this one. And apologies for banging on about Jimmy Seed again]
To @mascot88@ElfsborgAddick and many others [who are staying away], I just say this. I was brought up supporting Millwall because of the way the owners of the club treated Jimmy Seed. Later on I followed Millwall, Spurs, Sheffield Wednesday, Charlton (JS's clubs) and QPR (because I lived close to Loftus Rd). But I always knew that Charlton was the club he cared most about (and it was our 'family club') but I knew they let him down, so steered clear of full support. In that time I wrote the short book about his time at Charlton, but only very rarely went to matches. I was basically letting the behaviour of owners of the club (who are NOT the club) spoil my enjoyment of football for more than 40 years! It took the death of my mum (who always loved Charlton) to flick a switch somewhere and the rest is (recent) history. Much as I'm enjoying bringing the family back into the fold, I can't help feeling gutted at the great times and emotions missed. I enjoyed the play-off final from afar, but I wasn't there. I was delighted about the return to the Valley, but I wasn't there. I cheated myself out of great times and great memories. I trying to make up for lost time now. You guys are true Charlton fans and I totally respect your motives for staying away. But the old club is not Duchatelet and Meire. Don't let them take away your great times. Great occasions missed will be missed forever. Life is very short.
Well said Jim, I agree with a lot of that.
I have only returned to the fold since Premier relegation, as I've sought to introduce my son to the mad club his grandad would bang on about. I missed most of the Prem highlights through distance and lack of time but I have regaled him of play-offs, Full Members cup finals, exiles and 1980's away day trains - and he wants a taste of that and I am not going to deny him the chance of those experiences.
To those who say the drop in attendances / protests are about results - yes, of course they are. 99.9% of the world's football club's attendances are influenced by the on field success. BUT... we must remember the underlying reason why results have suffered. IF the network idea had worked out, IF money hadn't been wasted (and not added to debt), IF the SMT hadn't insulted the fans then we'd probably be happy bunnies as I'm sure we'd be more successful on-field too.
The majority of supporters want to see their team compete, hopefully win more than they lose and see a good game into the bargain - it IS a sporting club after all. To those who say it's NOT about the team performance, but about being a 'family' club be aware that is very close to saying "I don't care about the results, just about the dancing" as Dr Evil once said "We're not so different, you and I". People need to be honest about their protests: it IS about results but also about WHY those results are so bad - if the WHY is being fixed, then the results should reflect that; to say that the results are unimportant makes it look like a vendetta.
Personally, I still want them gone, but if they have changed their MO, even temporarily, which has resulted in an upturn in on-field activities I will revel in whatever success I can get as life is too short.
As a continuing boycotter, I feel I ought to reply to this.
I understand from friends that who still regularly attend games that the football played by Charlton this season has, so far, been a marked improvement on last season and most feel confident that we could challenge seriously for promotion this time. Good. However don't forget that after three and a half seasons of RD they feel confident that we could mount a challenge to get Charlton back to where we were when he arrived. Virtually all of people approving of the upturn in performances are worried by the lack of striker options if we get a injury in that area. This is despite that RD is by far and away the richest owner we have ever had and last season he sold a striker for £11,000,000 and a fit again Igor Vetokele who was scoring for fun in Belgium in the spring was contracted to Charlton until the end of this season. Most owners in that position who were determined to get an out and out push for promotion would have made sure that position was well and truly covered. If we were to achieve promotion, does anyone on here seriously believe he is going to make the investments necessary to enable us to compete in the Championship? Remember that he in on record as saying that winning games is not important.
It may be that Robinson has done some good business in the transfer market but if he has, it will be despite the owner but not because him.
Roland clearly believes supporters should shut up and do as they are told. To that end he appointed and continues to support a chief executive at Charlton who is grotesquely ill suited for the role and who believes that supporters should never challenge the her or " The Owner " about any of their decisions despite Charlton dropping to one of their worst seasons for eighty years.
Of course, gates are mainly dependent on results. In my case this is the fourth time that Charlton have dropped to the 3rd tier whilst I have supported the club. During the first three times I continued to regularly attend matches both home and away in the hope that brighter days were not too far away. However I cannot support a club that has no ambition to seriously challenge and I believe even if promotion were to achieved this year then, under RD's stewardship, we will merely be treading water until the next relegation.
I appreciate your point of view (and your stance), and if it wasn't for my son I probably would have given up my ST long ago and infrequently attended (but not a total boycott)
RD & KM have a long way to go to come close to repairing the damage they have caused, but maybe, just maybe, they have started on that path. If it all goes pear-shaped (and it probably will), the gloves come off again.
I, too, cannot fathom how a sports club can be run with a lack of on-field ambition but I also find it ironic when quoting RD's bizarre "winning games is not important" statement some boycotters (and I'm not sure if this includes you), use the same line when refusing to attend
I bought season tickets for myself and my 11 yr old yesterday (East Stand this time). I wasn't going to, but the football I've seen this year has made me think it's going to be hard to stay away.
It's a tricky decision for many, in particular those who are boycotting.
[Apologies for reposting this from a different thread, but I think it's more relevant in this one. And apologies for banging on about Jimmy Seed again]
To @mascot88@ElfsborgAddick and many others [who are staying away], I just say this. I was brought up supporting Millwall because of the way the owners of the club treated Jimmy Seed. Later on I followed Millwall, Spurs, Sheffield Wednesday, Charlton (JS's clubs) and QPR (because I lived close to Loftus Rd). But I always knew that Charlton was the club he cared most about (and it was our 'family club') but I knew they let him down, so steered clear of full support. In that time I wrote the short book about his time at Charlton, but only very rarely went to matches. I was basically letting the behaviour of owners of the club (who are NOT the club) spoil my enjoyment of football for more than 40 years! It took the death of my mum (who always loved Charlton) to flick a switch somewhere and the rest is (recent) history. Much as I'm enjoying bringing the family back into the fold, I can't help feeling gutted at the great times and emotions missed. I enjoyed the play-off final from afar, but I wasn't there. I was delighted about the return to the Valley, but I wasn't there. I cheated myself out of great times and great memories. I trying to make up for lost time now. You guys are true Charlton fans and I totally respect your motives for staying away. But the old club is not Duchatelet and Meire. Don't let them take away your great times. Great occasions missed will be missed forever. Life is very short.
Fair point.
But a large part of me staying away is, the woeful football being served up during the Duchebag era, so no memories of this particular period I'd care to retain and quite frankly I didn't want to waste my money either.
Most of my charlton memories are of the past and I'll still retain those, I'd rather not spoil that at the moment.
Could this season be different, lets hope so but it'll take more than a handful of games to lure me back, if at all.
Oh yes, can understand not wanting to go at that time for all sorts of reasons. The football is clearly more entertaining now, but if you don't want to go back at all, even with better football being played and matches being won, is it purely because of the owners, or have you just lost interest? But you wouldn't be on this forum if that was the case?
I think there's something to be said for me losing my interest in football, from the top down.
I'm tired of the old cronies brigade, the boring England football, the monopoly of a few clubs in the prem and world wide, same old teams year in year out. Leicester apart, christ and how refreshing was that.
We can all pretty much know whose going to win the World Cup, Euros, Champions League, other European competitions and the various leagues around the world, not just in England.
The owners of clubs who don't seem to give a fuck, obviously there are some exceptions.
I've never been one to follow my team around the country, home games mostly with the a smattering of away matches, mostly london venues and important away games further afield.
I've never understood those that do, that's not a criticism and of course if one supports a top team be it at club or international level, then of course that makes it more understandable.
I guess my Charlton history influences that too, over 40 years man and boy and apart from the prem years, play off final, back to the valley and a few others, there's not a great deal of happy memories, though maybe that just comes with the territory of being a football supporter, just imagine what it must be like for those fans worse off than us? Having said that, I often wonder if there's something more real about supporting a Welling United or Dartford?
I'd hate to think how much money I've spent on this football club and what better use I could have made of it and I think it's frightening how much those who follow the team home and away and have done for years, how much money they've spent. Have I got value for money, I don't think so and I don't think most of the owners over the years have been that bothered about the fans, who pay up week in week out, a few exceptions but certainly not this regime.
Of course I'll always love Charlton, it's in my blood, I'm on here enough times.
I'm still like a kid when we win and it still has a tendency to ruin my life when we lose, but not quite so much as it did, how bloody sad is that?
I bought season tickets for myself and my 11 yr old yesterday (East Stand this time). I wasn't going to, but the football I've seen this year has made me think it's going to be hard to stay away.
It's a tricky decision for many, in particular those who are boycotting.
[Apologies for reposting this from a different thread, but I think it's more relevant in this one. And apologies for banging on about Jimmy Seed again]
To @mascot88@ElfsborgAddick and many others [who are staying away], I just say this. I was brought up supporting Millwall because of the way the owners of the club treated Jimmy Seed. Later on I followed Millwall, Spurs, Sheffield Wednesday, Charlton (JS's clubs) and QPR (because I lived close to Loftus Rd). But I always knew that Charlton was the club he cared most about (and it was our 'family club') but I knew they let him down, so steered clear of full support. In that time I wrote the short book about his time at Charlton, but only very rarely went to matches. I was basically letting the behaviour of owners of the club (who are NOT the club) spoil my enjoyment of football for more than 40 years! It took the death of my mum (who always loved Charlton) to flick a switch somewhere and the rest is (recent) history. Much as I'm enjoying bringing the family back into the fold, I can't help feeling gutted at the great times and emotions missed. I enjoyed the play-off final from afar, but I wasn't there. I was delighted about the return to the Valley, but I wasn't there. I cheated myself out of great times and great memories. I trying to make up for lost time now. You guys are true Charlton fans and I totally respect your motives for staying away. But the old club is not Duchatelet and Meire. Don't let them take away your great times. Great occasions missed will be missed forever. Life is very short.
Fair point.
But a large part of me staying away is, the woeful football being served up during the Duchebag era, so no memories of this particular period I'd care to retain and quite frankly I didn't want to waste my money either.
Most of my charlton memories are of the past and I'll still retain those, I'd rather not spoil that at the moment.
Could this season be different, lets hope so but it'll take more than a handful of games to lure me back, if at all.
Oh yes, can understand not wanting to go at that time for all sorts of reasons. The football is clearly more entertaining now, but if you don't want to go back at all, even with better football being played and matches being won, is it purely because of the owners, or have you just lost interest? But you wouldn't be on this forum if that was the case?
I think there's something to be said for me losing my interest in football, from the top down.
I'm tired of the old cronies brigade, the boring England football, the monopoly of a few clubs in the prem and world wide, same old teams year in year out. Leicester apart, christ and how refreshing was that.
We can all pretty much know whose going to win the World Cup, Euros, Champions League, other European competitions and the various leagues around the world, not just in England.
The owners of clubs who don't seem to give a fuck, obviously there are some exceptions.
I've never been one to follow my team around the country, home games mostly with the a smattering of away matches, mostly london venues and important away games further afield.
I've never understood those that do, that's not a criticism and of course if one supports a top team be it at club or international level, then of course that makes it more understandable.
I guess my Charlton history influences that too, over 40 years man and boy and apart from the prem years, play off final, back to the valley and a few others, there's not a great deal of happy memories, though maybe that just comes with the territory of being a football supporter, just imagine what it must be like for those fans worse off than us? Having said that, I often wonder if there's something more real about supporting a Welling United or Dartford?
I'd hate to think how much money I've spent on this football club and what better use I could have made of it and I think it's frightening how much those who follow the team home and away and have done for years, how much money they've spent. Have I got value for money, I don't think so and I don't think most of the owners over the years have been that bothered about the fans, who pay up week in week out, a few exceptions but certainly not this regime.
Of course I'll always love Charlton, it's in my blood, I'm on here enough times.
I'm still like a kid when we win and it still has a tendency to ruin my life when we lose, but not quite so much as it did, how bloody sad is that?
Not sad at all. It's what thousands of men all over the country do.
I bought season tickets for myself and my 11 yr old yesterday (East Stand this time). I wasn't going to, but the football I've seen this year has made me think it's going to be hard to stay away.
It's a tricky decision for many, in particular those who are boycotting.
[Apologies for reposting this from a different thread, but I think it's more relevant in this one. And apologies for banging on about Jimmy Seed again]
As a continuing boycotter, I feel I ought to reply to this.
I understand from friends that who still regularly attend games that the football played by Charlton this season has, so far, been a marked improvement on last season and most feel confident that we could challenge seriously for promotion this time. Good. However don't forget that after three and a half seasons of RD they feel confident that we could mount a challenge to get Charlton back to where we were when he arrived. Virtually all of people approving of the upturn in performances are worried by the lack of striker options if we get a injury in that area. This is despite that RD is by far and away the richest owner we have ever had and last season he sold a striker for £11,000,000 and a fit again Igor Vetokele who was scoring for fun in Belgium in the spring was contracted to Charlton until the end of this season. Most owners in that position who were determined to get an out and out push for promotion would have made sure that position was well and truly covered. If we were to achieve promotion, does anyone on here seriously believe he is going to make the investments necessary to enable us to compete in the Championship? Remember that he in on record as saying that winning games is not important.
It may be that Robinson has done some good business in the transfer market but if he has, it will be despite the owner but not because him.
Roland clearly believes supporters should shut up and do as they are told. To that end he appointed and continues to support a chief executive at Charlton who is grotesquely ill suited for the role and who believes that supporters should never challenge the her or " The Owner " about any of their decisions despite Charlton dropping to one of their worst seasons for eighty years.
Of course, gates are mainly dependent on results. In my case this is the fourth time that Charlton have dropped to the 3rd tier whilst I have supported the club. During the first three times I continued to regularly attend matches both home and away in the hope that brighter days were not too far away. However I cannot support a club that has no ambition to seriously challenge and I believe even if promotion were to achieved this year then, under RD's stewardship, we will merely be treading water until the next relegation.
I agree with all of this. I am still boycotting. Not totally but I am anticipating that Doncaster will be my first home match this season and almost certainly my last of 2017.
Sure, the squad, albeit without adequate cover in certain positions - striker, right back and left back spring immediately to mind - seems better this time round. But is it better than the squad that got us relegated from the Championship? I think not. And therein lies the issue - the future.
If Robinson gets us promoted this season - what then? The Championship is, in my opinion, a much stronger league than when we were last there. There are significant numbers of clubs who have changed owners and many of these new owners have ambition and have shown it. Then there's the vastly increased parachute payments. Many of Clubs in the league above us have ambition and have shown that. Promotion would mean there would be an absolute necessity to acquire maybe 5/6 (minimum) outfield players who are better than we have at present. (And that's without taking into account any departures.) Without that very significant outlay the club will not have any hope of staying at the higher level for more than a single season. On top of that, the goalkeeping situation desperately needs sorting. Let's say Amos impresses this year. Is there any chance that we could/would meet his wage demands? Is Philips good enough? Probably not, as Robinson was looking to offload him on loan to a team at a lower level. That's a further two players needed. Would that happen? Not, in my judgement.
Others can make up their own mind but would Roland shell out for any of that? Would that be new money on top of whatever might (or might not) get spent on the never-ending training ground project? Would it all be loaded as fresh debt onto the club's books? Would Robinson want to stay under these circumstances or would we be looking for yet another manager?
Unless Roland and his inadequate minion are prepared to stand up and explain what their plans are for future expenditure, I see nothing to get excited or even very interested about.
5 matches into a 46 game season isn't enough for me personally, granted we've made a good start but we are thin, IF a couple of injuries were to happen i don't now how we would get on, i also don't believe we will win the league, 2nd possibly but i think we will get playoffs.
however a friend is away so using his season ticket on Saturday, may purchase something in the ground but the way i see it its better to spend £5 on a pie and a pint instead of £20.00 on a match ticket, or £325 over a season which is what my old seat would of cost.
I Don't think the circus upstairs have learnt a thing or will ever change - can you really see this guy spending money in the championship ( relegated by xmas i feel ), just think they have got v lucky with karl and some of the players turning out alright.
letting 3 strikers go and getting someone in on loan till January who was surplus to requirements in a rangers side, when our main striker is a regular international says a LOT imo.
I guess you have been away a long time if you think you can buy a pie AND a pint for a fiver!
Better getting a season ticket at £10 a match and buying nothing IMO.
so give the club £325 or £10 3 or 4 times a season.
What worries me about this drift back and the fact they there are no longer any protests is that it looks as if we were just a bunch of fickle football fas and that what we really cared about all along was results on the pitch. To me it was so much more that. It was about having an owner that does't care for competitive sport, a CEO who is incompetent, management who have verbally abused fans and who hired bully boys who did the job physically. It was about an ownership totally incongruent to the history and values of our club. Nothing's changed for me. I hate this regime. I'm not coming back until they are gone.
but we've won 4 out of 5 games and got a free scarf.
I bought season tickets for myself and my 11 yr old yesterday (East Stand this time). I wasn't going to, but the football I've seen this year has made me think it's going to be hard to stay away.
It's a tricky decision for many, in particular those who are boycotting.
[Apologies for reposting this from a different thread, but I think it's more relevant in this one. And apologies for banging on about Jimmy Seed again]
To @mascot88@ElfsborgAddick and many others [who are staying away], I just say this. I was brought up supporting Millwall because of the way the owners of the club treated Jimmy Seed. Later on I followed Millwall, Spurs, Sheffield Wednesday, Charlton (JS's clubs) and QPR (because I lived close to Loftus Rd). But I always knew that Charlton was the club he cared most about (and it was our 'family club') but I knew they let him down, so steered clear of full support. In that time I wrote the short book about his time at Charlton, but only very rarely went to matches. I was basically letting the behaviour of owners of the club (who are NOT the club) spoil my enjoyment of football for more than 40 years! It took the death of my mum (who always loved Charlton) to flick a switch somewhere and the rest is (recent) history. Much as I'm enjoying bringing the family back into the fold, I can't help feeling gutted at the great times and emotions missed. I enjoyed the play-off final from afar, but I wasn't there. I was delighted about the return to the Valley, but I wasn't there. I cheated myself out of great times and great memories. I trying to make up for lost time now. You guys are true Charlton fans and I totally respect your motives for staying away. But the old club is not Duchatelet and Meire. Don't let them take away your great times. Great occasions missed will be missed forever. Life is very short.
Fair point.
But a large part of me staying away is, the woeful football being served up during the Duchebag era, so no memories of this particular period I'd care to retain and quite frankly I didn't want to waste my money either.
Most of my charlton memories are of the past and I'll still retain those, I'd rather not spoil that at the moment.
Could this season be different, lets hope so but it'll take more than a handful of games to lure me back, if at all.
Oh yes, can understand not wanting to go at that time for all sorts of reasons. The football is clearly more entertaining now, but if you don't want to go back at all, even with better football being played and matches being won, is it purely because of the owners, or have you just lost interest? But you wouldn't be on this forum if that was the case?
We can all pretty much know whose going to win the World Cup, Euros, Champions League, other European competitions and the various leagues around the world, not just in England.
Brilliant, can you tell us please, my betting slip is ready
Thanks to the people who have commented/replied to my above posting.
Covered End. With regard to your comment that if Robinson has done well in the transfer market then RD must take some of the credit for appointing Robinson, I'm afraid I cannot agree with that and certainly not at this stage. It is likely that Robinson has got lucky this time but a real upturn in the club's fortunes demands the sort of backing and non-interefence that is clearly is clearly anathema to RD. Lawrence worked miracles with small resources for a number of years but relegation and then nearly a further relegation was the inevitable outcome in the end.
If KM admitted that fans were staying away because of her and Roland, this was most likely because her expensively bought in PR people insisted that a show of humility was necessary for self advancement rather than a true road to Damascus moment. I notice that despite admitting to you that she was the cause of people no longer attending football matches she was still putting herself forward to sit on various FA committees to run football in this country!
I bought season tickets for myself and my 11 yr old yesterday (East Stand this time). I wasn't going to, but the football I've seen this year has made me think it's going to be hard to stay away.
It's a tricky decision for many, in particular those who are boycotting.
[Apologies for reposting this from a different thread, but I think it's more relevant in this one. And apologies for banging on about Jimmy Seed again]
To @mascot88@ElfsborgAddick and many others [who are staying away], I just say this. I was brought up supporting Millwall because of the way the owners of the club treated Jimmy Seed. Later on I followed Millwall, Spurs, Sheffield Wednesday, Charlton (JS's clubs) and QPR (because I lived close to Loftus Rd). But I always knew that Charlton was the club he cared most about (and it was our 'family club') but I knew they let him down, so steered clear of full support. In that time I wrote the short book about his time at Charlton, but only very rarely went to matches. I was basically letting the behaviour of owners of the club (who are NOT the club) spoil my enjoyment of football for more than 40 years! It took the death of my mum (who always loved Charlton) to flick a switch somewhere and the rest is (recent) history. Much as I'm enjoying bringing the family back into the fold, I can't help feeling gutted at the great times and emotions missed. I enjoyed the play-off final from afar, but I wasn't there. I was delighted about the return to the Valley, but I wasn't there. I cheated myself out of great times and great memories. I trying to make up for lost time now. You guys are true Charlton fans and I totally respect your motives for staying away. But the old club is not Duchatelet and Meire. Don't let them take away your great times. Great occasions missed will be missed forever. Life is very short.
Fair point.
But a large part of me staying away is, the woeful football being served up during the Duchebag era, so no memories of this particular period I'd care to retain and quite frankly I didn't want to waste my money either.
Most of my charlton memories are of the past and I'll still retain those, I'd rather not spoil that at the moment.
Could this season be different, lets hope so but it'll take more than a handful of games to lure me back, if at all.
Oh yes, can understand not wanting to go at that time for all sorts of reasons. The football is clearly more entertaining now, but if you don't want to go back at all, even with better football being played and matches being won, is it purely because of the owners, or have you just lost interest? But you wouldn't be on this forum if that was the case?
I think there's something to be said for me losing my interest in football, from the top down.
I'm tired of the old cronies brigade, the boring England football, the monopoly of a few clubs in the prem and world wide, same old teams year in year out. Leicester apart, christ and how refreshing was that.
We can all pretty much know whose going to win the World Cup, Euros, Champions League, other European competitions and the various leagues around the world, not just in England.
The owners of clubs who don't seem to give a fuck, obviously there are some exceptions.
I've never been one to follow my team around the country, home games mostly with the a smattering of away matches, mostly london venues and important away games further afield.
I've never understood those that do, that's not a criticism and of course if one supports a top team be it at club or international level, then of course that makes it more understandable.
I guess my Charlton history influences that too, over 40 years man and boy and apart from the prem years, play off final, back to the valley and a few others, there's not a great deal of happy memories, though maybe that just comes with the territory of being a football supporter, just imagine what it must be like for those fans worse off than us? Having said that, I often wonder if there's something more real about supporting a Welling United or Dartford?
I'd hate to think how much money I've spent on this football club and what better use I could have made of it and I think it's frightening how much those who follow the team home and away and have done for years, how much money they've spent. Have I got value for money, I don't think so and I don't think most of the owners over the years have been that bothered about the fans, who pay up week in week out, a few exceptions but certainly not this regime.
Of course I'll always love Charlton, it's in my blood, I'm on here enough times.
I'm still like a kid when we win and it still has a tendency to ruin my life when we lose, but not quite so much as it did, how bloody sad is that?
Not sad at all. It's what thousands of men all over the country do.
To be perfectly honest and this is just me and hopefully reflects my maturing wisdom or not but I do think there's something sad about it.
I can understand when ones in ones teens or maybe 20's but after that, following a team home and away season after season, particularly if for the most part the team you support is shit and has always been shit, seems madness to me, there's just better things to do in my opinion.
Of course as I've said, if one supports a team that wins things all the time be it at club level or international level, then I can just about get that. And I guess trips abroad, if one stays over for a few days, I can get that but Rochdale away on a Tuesday night, I don't get that, no disrespect to Rochdale and the like.
It costs an awful lot to follow a football team and that's fine if you can afford it but and this not grounded in any research, I do get the feeling so many can't and get themselves into debt or the family goes without, that doesn't seem right to me.
Thanks to the people who have commented/replied to my above posting.
Covered End. With regard to your comment that if Robinson has done well in the transfer market then RD must take some of the credit for appointing Robinson, I'm afraid I cannot agree with that and certainly not at this stage. It is likely that Robinson has got lucky this time but a real upturn in the club's fortunes demands the sort of backing and non-interefence that is clearly is clearly anathema to RD. Lawrence worked miracles with small resources for a number of years but relegation and then nearly a further relegation was the inevitable outcome in the end.
If KM admitted that fans were staying away because of her and Roland, this was most likely because her expensively bought in PR people insisted that a show of humility was necessary for self advancement rather than a true road to Damascus moment. I notice that despite admitting to you that she was the cause of people no longer attending football matches she was still putting herself forward to sit on various FA committees to run football in this country!
Once again I agree with all you say, apart from KR getting lucky.
I don't believe he got lucky. He has moulded the squad into what he wanted from the available budget.
He chased Reeves for 6 months, before finally landing him.
He got in Clarke & Marshall very quickly and someone identified Fosu, who I'd never heard of.
He waited a long time before getting Amos and all of this done on possibly £300K in transfer fees.
He got Da Silva back on loan.
He renewed the contracts of our 3 top players, Holmes, Pearce and Magennis.
He moved on the players that were not wanted for a variety of reasons.
Some of the players being Tex, Watt, Ajose Crofts, Novak, Johnson.
He talks too much for sure but the above were in no way whatsoever down to luck. They were bloody good management.
Anyway, we're on the same side, we just see things slightly different at this stage.
I think things have changed down to good planning and you put it down to luck.
I'm very aware that things can change for the worse, but I try to make a judgement on what is happening now, not what happened in the past or what may happen in the future. If things change for the worse my view may well change again.
(It's a bit like politics. I'm one of the swing voters. I don't totally judge on the past, I try and judge on the here and now.)
I've seen too many people in my life living for tomorrow or not being able to move on from past troubles, that continue to impact negatively on their lives.
Life is not a rehearsal, we need to live for the day if and when we are able.
I bought season tickets for myself and my 11 yr old yesterday (East Stand this time). I wasn't going to, but the football I've seen this year has made me think it's going to be hard to stay away.
It's a tricky decision for many, in particular those who are boycotting.
[Apologies for reposting this from a different thread, but I think it's more relevant in this one. And apologies for banging on about Jimmy Seed again]
To @mascot88@ElfsborgAddick and many others [who are staying away], I just say this. I was brought up supporting Millwall because of the way the owners of the club treated Jimmy Seed. Later on I followed Millwall, Spurs, Sheffield Wednesday, Charlton (JS's clubs) and QPR (because I lived close to Loftus Rd). But I always knew that Charlton was the club he cared most about (and it was our 'family club') but I knew they let him down, so steered clear of full support. In that time I wrote the short book about his time at Charlton, but only very rarely went to matches. I was basically letting the behaviour of owners of the club (who are NOT the club) spoil my enjoyment of football for more than 40 years! It took the death of my mum (who always loved Charlton) to flick a switch somewhere and the rest is (recent) history. Much as I'm enjoying bringing the family back into the fold, I can't help feeling gutted at the great times and emotions missed. I enjoyed the play-off final from afar, but I wasn't there. I was delighted about the return to the Valley, but I wasn't there. I cheated myself out of great times and great memories. I trying to make up for lost time now. You guys are true Charlton fans and I totally respect your motives for staying away. But the old club is not Duchatelet and Meire. Don't let them take away your great times. Great occasions missed will be missed forever. Life is very short.
Well said Jim, I agree with a lot of that.
I have only returned to the fold since Premier relegation, as I've sought to introduce my son to the mad club his grandad would bang on about. I missed most of the Prem highlights through distance and lack of time but I have regaled him of play-offs, Full Members cup finals, exiles and 1980's away day trains - and he wants a taste of that and I am not going to deny him the chance of those experiences.
To those who say the drop in attendances / protests are about results - yes, of course they are. 99.9% of the world's football club's attendances are influenced by the on field success. BUT... we must remember the underlying reason why results have suffered. IF the network idea had worked out, IF money hadn't been wasted (and not added to debt), IF the SMT hadn't insulted the fans then we'd probably be happy bunnies as I'm sure we'd be more successful on-field too.
The majority of supporters want to see their team compete, hopefully win more than they lose and see a good game into the bargain - it IS a sporting club after all. To those who say it's NOT about the team performance, but about being a 'family' club be aware that is very close to saying "I don't care about the results, just about the dancing" as Dr Evil once said "We're not so different, you and I". People need to be honest about their protests: it IS about results but also about WHY those results are so bad - if the WHY is being fixed, then the results should reflect that; to say that the results are unimportant makes it look like a vendetta.
Personally, I still want them gone, but if they have changed their MO, even temporarily, which has resulted in an upturn in on-field activities I will revel in whatever success I can get as life is too short.
I know you used that number as an indication rather than a stat but there has been a lot of academic research into the reasons for trends in attendances (some by me on my MBA) but even though many people will not continue to follow a team with reducing success on the pitch, there are many that will.
In fact the whole idea of increasing attendances in the event of promotion suggest that, if anything, the results (of the expectation of them) are inversely proportional to attendances. I suspect that a quick calculation based on attendances per point in the Premier League, compared with the Championship, would suggest that for most teams losing (in the higher division) brings in more fans.
When I did my dissertation there was no consideration for how the fans felt about the owners - it just wasn't a factor, but football has changed a lot in the last two decades. Having said that we have had rubbish owners in the past, and in reality I only remember a few years when those running the club could afford to buy decent players. This is the first time I remember us (or any other club) having owners that can afford to buy success but choose not to do so. It feels more frustrating because there are a handful of high profile clubs where the owners have changed the club's status, maybe permanently, by spending lots and lots of money.
Even though the lessons learned don't seem to stop the Belgians making more mistakes, there is no training course for running a football club and they do seem to be doing a better job of it now that when they arrived. Even experience doesn't guarantee success. Just looking at us in 2006 most people heralded us as a model club. Richard Murray and Peter Varney, along with Alan Curbishley were believed to be running the club very sensibly and looked to have 'cracked it'. Forward on two years and Curbishley had left, we had been relegated and Murray and Varney had overseen a year in which Pardew had been allowed to spend something like six years income (ignoring TV revenue) on signing players that, mostly, failed, and left us with a squad that saw us relegated to the third division the following season after Varney had left. Put into context this does show that either luck plays a big part in football (and Murray's ran out) or it is just not easy to be successful without spending a fortune in the process - something that it could be argued we did in 2007/8 - from memory we spend £12.5m on players when the teams in the Premier League were getting £20m a season!
There is an assumption that new owners will being success on the pitch. There is a belief that as soon as the Belgians leave we will climb the divisions and take our 'rightful' place in the Premier League. I'm not saying that won't happen but if we were offered a similar set up to Portsmouth as long as it would mean two relegations and a further three years to get back to where we are, and no guarantee of getting back into the Championship for a decade or two, I'm not so sure there would be that many takers. I'm also not so sure that the attendances would be any higher in the long term.
I'm more than happy for a change of ownership, I don't believe that this is our rightful place in the league structure, however, the last time we were in this division, when Richard Murray was warning of the money running out, I, genuinely feared for the future of the club and believed that it was relegation or administration. As much as I hate KM, I'm not sure I'd swap what we have for that.
Also, it has become much more fun watching the team this season, not only the wins but the football is better than I remember since we were in the Premier League.
The lowest team in the PL got £30m in 2007/08. Murray was chasing that money, as indeed he was in 2006/07, albeit for Charlton's benefit.
The issue in 2007/08 was one of financial governance (and Pardew), as you imply. That is why Murray was removed from the chair of the plc by the other directors in January 2008 and why Varney ceased to be chief executive (his own choice in response to the situation between the various warring parties).
Comments
The football is clearly more entertaining now, but if you don't want to go back at all, even with better football being played and matches being won, is it purely because of the owners, or have you just lost interest? But you wouldn't be on this forum if that was the case?
I have only returned to the fold since Premier relegation, as I've sought to introduce my son to the mad club his grandad would bang on about. I missed most of the Prem highlights through distance and lack of time but I have regaled him of play-offs, Full Members cup finals, exiles and 1980's away day trains - and he wants a taste of that and I am not going to deny him the chance of those experiences.
To those who say the drop in attendances / protests are about results - yes, of course they are. 99.9% of the world's football club's attendances are influenced by the on field success. BUT... we must remember the underlying reason why results have suffered. IF the network idea had worked out, IF money hadn't been wasted (and not added to debt), IF the SMT hadn't insulted the fans then we'd probably be happy bunnies as I'm sure we'd be more successful on-field too.
The majority of supporters want to see their team compete, hopefully win more than they lose and see a good game into the bargain - it IS a sporting club after all. To those who say it's NOT about the team performance, but about being a 'family' club be aware that is very close to saying "I don't care about the results, just about the dancing" as Dr Evil once said "We're not so different, you and I". People need to be honest about their protests: it IS about results but also about WHY those results are so bad - if the WHY is being fixed, then the results should reflect that; to say that the results are unimportant makes it look like a vendetta.
Personally, I still want them gone, but if they have changed their MO, even temporarily, which has resulted in an upturn in on-field activities I will revel in whatever success I can get as life is too short.
For example, when we were in the Prem and we lost to Man Utd (back when Man Utd were good) no one would bother to bring it up. If we lost to Ipswich/Bolton/ Watford etc. then fair enough. Same as we can't crow about beating Northampton 4-1 at home.
However, I have heard the response (not to me as I've worked from home since before we fell into the third division in 2009) "Yeah whatever. Remind me what division do your lot play in?"
The ridicule from other sides fans is, also, relative to the clubs status. My boss in my last job was a Chelsea fan and I came in early to decorate his desk when we beat them. Dito when Lisbie scored a hat-trick against Liverpool - I printed a poster of him and hung it behind the desk of the manager that was a Liverpool fan. All I got from these two was a sly smile and offers of tea all day when they beat us.
Better getting a season ticket at £10 a match and buying nothing IMO.
In fact the whole idea of increasing attendances in the event of promotion suggest that, if anything, the results (of the expectation of them) are inversely proportional to attendances. I suspect that a quick calculation based on attendances per point in the Premier League, compared with the Championship, would suggest that for most teams losing (in the higher division) brings in more fans.
When I did my dissertation there was no consideration for how the fans felt about the owners - it just wasn't a factor, but football has changed a lot in the last two decades. Having said that we have had rubbish owners in the past, and in reality I only remember a few years when those running the club could afford to buy decent players. This is the first time I remember us (or any other club) having owners that can afford to buy success but choose not to do so. It feels more frustrating because there are a handful of high profile clubs where the owners have changed the club's status, maybe permanently, by spending lots and lots of money.
Even though the lessons learned don't seem to stop the Belgians making more mistakes, there is no training course for running a football club and they do seem to be doing a better job of it now that when they arrived. Even experience doesn't guarantee success. Just looking at us in 2006 most people heralded us as a model club. Richard Murray and Peter Varney, along with Alan Curbishley were believed to be running the club very sensibly and looked to have 'cracked it'. Forward on two years and Curbishley had left, we had been relegated and Murray and Varney had overseen a year in which Pardew had been allowed to spend something like six years income (ignoring TV revenue) on signing players that, mostly, failed, and left us with a squad that saw us relegated to the third division the following season after Varney had left. Put into context this does show that either luck plays a big part in football (and Murray's ran out) or it is just not easy to be successful without spending a fortune in the process - something that it could be argued we did in 2007/8 - from memory we spend £12.5m on players when the teams in the Premier League were getting £20m a season!
There is an assumption that new owners will being success on the pitch. There is a belief that as soon as the Belgians leave we will climb the divisions and take our 'rightful' place in the Premier League. I'm not saying that won't happen but if we were offered a similar set up to Portsmouth as long as it would mean two relegations and a further three years to get back to where we are, and no guarantee of getting back into the Championship for a decade or two, I'm not so sure there would be that many takers. I'm also not so sure that the attendances would be any higher in the long term.
I'm more than happy for a change of ownership, I don't believe that this is our rightful place in the league structure, however, the last time we were in this division, when Richard Murray was warning of the money running out, I, genuinely feared for the future of the club and believed that it was relegation or administration. As much as I hate KM, I'm not sure I'd swap what we have for that.
Also, it has become much more fun watching the team this season, not only the wins but the football is better than I remember since we were in the Premier League.
I was just trying to make the point that results DO matter to the majority and any owner, however much they may be despised, WILL be forgiven by a substantial number of fans if they bring success
I understand from friends that who still regularly attend games that the football played by Charlton this season has, so far, been a marked improvement on last season and most feel confident that we could challenge seriously for promotion this time. Good. However don't forget that after three and a half seasons of RD they feel confident that we could mount a challenge to get Charlton back to where we were when he arrived. Virtually all of people approving of the upturn in performances are worried by the lack of striker options if we get a injury in that area. This is despite that RD is by far and away the richest owner we have ever had and last season he sold a striker for £11,000,000 and a fit again Igor Vetokele who was scoring for fun in Belgium in the spring was contracted to Charlton until the end of this season. Most owners in that position who were determined to get an out and out push for promotion would have made sure that position was well and truly covered. If we were to achieve promotion, does anyone on here seriously believe he is going to make the investments necessary to enable us to compete in the Championship? Remember that he in on record as saying that winning games is not important.
It may be that Robinson has done some good business in the transfer market but if he has, it will be despite the owner but not because him.
Roland clearly believes supporters should shut up and do as they are told. To that end he appointed and continues to support a chief executive at Charlton who is grotesquely ill suited for the role and who believes that supporters should never challenge the her or " The Owner " about any of their decisions despite Charlton dropping to one of their worst seasons for eighty years.
Of course, gates are mainly dependent on results. In my case this is the fourth time that Charlton have dropped to the 3rd tier whilst I have supported the club. During the first three times I continued to regularly attend matches both home and away in the hope that brighter days were not too far away. However I cannot support a club that has no ambition to seriously challenge and I believe even if promotion were to achieved this year then, under RD's stewardship, we will merely be treading water until the next relegation.
I'll never like RD/KM for what they did, but I don't think their actions were out of mailce. I think it was because they were misguided, lacking in English football knowledge and would not admit it. I know they've not issued an official apology, but to me it was some sort of breakthrough when KM admitted at the Trust meeting last April, that the fans were staying away because of them and not simply because of relegation.
It was the first time I've spoken to her ( and there have been plenty), that I believed that she was no longer in denial.
I don't really care if RD 'believes supporters should shut up and do as they are told'. They clearly won't, and neither will I. Him believing that won't stop me watching my team (it's not his. He's just borrowed it temporarily).
But I get your point that he lacks ambition for the club. And yes, to survive in the Championship, let alone get promoted from it, will almost certainly take more investment. It didn't back in my grandad's day. He won consecutive promotions and finished second in Div One with only a few changes, but I guess times are different now.
RD & KM have a long way to go to come close to repairing the damage they have caused, but maybe, just maybe, they have started on that path. If it all goes pear-shaped (and it probably will), the gloves come off again.
I, too, cannot fathom how a sports club can be run with a lack of on-field ambition but I also find it ironic when quoting RD's bizarre "winning games is not important" statement some boycotters (and I'm not sure if this includes you), use the same line when refusing to attend
I'm tired of the old cronies brigade, the boring England football, the monopoly of a few clubs in the prem and world wide, same old teams year in year out. Leicester apart, christ and how refreshing was that.
We can all pretty much know whose going to win the World Cup, Euros, Champions League, other European competitions and the various leagues around the world, not just in England.
The owners of clubs who don't seem to give a fuck, obviously there are some exceptions.
I've never been one to follow my team around the country, home games mostly with the a smattering of away matches, mostly london venues and important away games further afield.
I've never understood those that do, that's not a criticism and of course if one supports a top team be it at club or international level, then of course that makes it more understandable.
I guess my Charlton history influences that too, over 40 years man and boy and apart from the prem years, play off final, back to the valley and a few others, there's not a great deal of happy memories, though maybe that just comes with the territory of being a football supporter, just imagine what it must be like for those fans worse off than us? Having said that, I often wonder if there's something more real about supporting a Welling United or Dartford?
I'd hate to think how much money I've spent on this football club and what better use I could have made of it and I think it's frightening how much those who follow the team home and away and have done for years, how much money they've spent. Have I got value for money, I don't think so and I don't think most of the owners over the years have been that bothered about the fans, who pay up week in week out, a few exceptions but certainly not this regime.
Of course I'll always love Charlton, it's in my blood, I'm on here enough times.
I'm still like a kid when we win and it still has a tendency to ruin my life when we lose, but not quite so much as it did, how bloody sad is that?
Breach: "a gap made in a wall, fortification, line of soldiers, etc.; rift; fissure."
Oh, and the correct quote is actually "Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more..."
breech
briːtʃ/Submit
noun
1.
the part of a cannon behind the bore.
2.
archaic
a person's buttocks.
Thanks to the people who have commented/replied to my above posting.
Covered End. With regard to your comment that if Robinson has done well in the transfer market then RD must take some of the credit for appointing Robinson, I'm afraid I cannot agree with that and certainly not at this stage. It is likely that Robinson has got lucky this time but a real upturn in the club's fortunes demands the sort of backing and non-interefence that is clearly is clearly anathema to RD. Lawrence worked miracles with small resources for a number of years but relegation and then nearly a further relegation was the inevitable outcome in the end.
If KM admitted that fans were staying away because of her and Roland, this was most likely because her expensively bought in PR people insisted that a show of humility was necessary for self advancement rather than a true road to Damascus moment. I notice that despite admitting to you that she was the cause of people no longer attending football matches she was still putting herself forward to sit on various FA committees to run football in this country!
I can understand when ones in ones teens or maybe 20's but after that, following a team home and away season after season, particularly if for the most part the team you support is shit and has always been shit, seems madness to me, there's just better things to do in my opinion.
Of course as I've said, if one supports a team that wins things all the time be it at club level or international level, then I can just about get that. And I guess trips abroad, if one stays over for a few days, I can get that but Rochdale away on a Tuesday night, I don't get that, no disrespect to Rochdale and the like.
It costs an awful lot to follow a football team and that's fine if you can afford it but and this not grounded in any research, I do get the feeling so many can't and get themselves into debt or the family goes without, that doesn't seem right to me.
Assuming Southend bring 1500 I would hope we might get nearer 13/14k for this.
I don't believe he got lucky. He has moulded the squad into what he wanted from the available budget.
He chased Reeves for 6 months, before finally landing him.
He got in Clarke & Marshall very quickly and someone identified Fosu, who I'd never heard of.
He waited a long time before getting Amos and all of this done on possibly £300K in transfer fees.
He got Da Silva back on loan.
He renewed the contracts of our 3 top players, Holmes, Pearce and Magennis.
He moved on the players that were not wanted for a variety of reasons.
Some of the players being Tex, Watt, Ajose Crofts, Novak, Johnson.
He talks too much for sure but the above were in no way whatsoever down to luck. They were bloody good management.
Anyway, we're on the same side, we just see things slightly different at this stage.
I think things have changed down to good planning and you put it down to luck.
I'm very aware that things can change for the worse, but I try to make a judgement on what is happening now, not what happened in the past or what may happen in the future. If things change for the worse my view may well change again.
(It's a bit like politics. I'm one of the swing voters. I don't totally judge on the past, I try and judge on the here and now.)
I've seen too many people in my life living for tomorrow or not being able to move on from past troubles, that continue to impact negatively on their lives.
Life is not a rehearsal, we need to live for the day if and when we are able.
Just my opinion, all the best.
The issue in 2007/08 was one of financial governance (and Pardew), as you imply. That is why Murray was removed from the chair of the plc by the other directors in January 2008 and why Varney ceased to be chief executive (his own choice in response to the situation between the various warring parties).