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The influence of the EU on Britain.
Comments
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Firstly it would help if you didn't use the cretinous phrase 'Remoaner'. It doesn't make you sound big or clever. - I am both.Fiiish said:
Firstly it would help if you didn't use the cretinous phrase 'Remoaner'. It doesn't make you sound big or clever.Valiantphil said:
Happy to put the record straight (again!).Fiiish said:
You joke but most Brexit voters are still under the illusion that EU migrants are going to be deported en masse in May 2019.Leuth said:Or maybe they are, after reading posts like that
If it helps though anyone who think all non-ethnically British people should not be here could always refuse to use a hospital, surgery, school, shop or service that employs non-English staff. Because if they did use such services they might be at risk of being hypocrites.
I can't speak for other Brexit voters, but if there are any deportations (other than on the basis of illegal entry or extradition), then I will be the first at the border point with a banner and a megaphone to protest.
I have no interest in the ethnic origin of our existing population - but I don't want the future population of this island to be 100 million, and we cannot control the number when we have free movement from the EU (500 million population). Not forgetting that the 5 million (?) Brits who live abroad have the right to return should they wish.
The current UK population projection for 2040 is 75 million.
There is already a chronic housing shortage, we are no strangers to water rationing, and if we resort to building on agricultural land we will be at the mercy of other nations - just like we are now with energy.
Remoaners often want to make Brexit about racism, but for me it is about numbers.
Secondly who said anything about racism? The other posters who have whinged about Eastern Europeans stealing all the jobs and hospitals and schools are being used by non-British have clearly made their sentiments clear: those who were born here to ethnically British people deserve superior treatment and access to services to those who were not.
I will admit I am concerned about population levels and our diminishing finite resources but capping EU immigration is not a complete solution. We have just as many non-EU migrants, not to mention an ageing population and a birth rate meaning our population will continue to grow regardless of our EU membership. You also have to bear in mind that many EU immigrants actually leave at some point. Because there is no accurate reporting of this as we do not monitor those leaving in the same way we monitor those arriving, the numbers of permanent EU immigrants, those that would impact future population counts significantly, are skewed.
Out of the top 10 countries from which immigrants come from outside of the British Isles, only 3 are in the EU.
There are sensible and sustainable solutions to our population growth, including clamping down on self-policing landlords who allow 20 people to sleep in a 3 bed flat. We also need a sustainable housing future, including stopping stacking box homes in already overdeveloped areas, further causing strains on the local environment and community.
There seems to be no evidence whatsoever that leaving the EU is necessary to begin to tackle this issue, nor does there seem to be any appetite from any major party to put significant controls on immigration from the EU post Brexit to have any meaningful effect.
Furthermore, let us not forget the Official Leave campaign specifically campaigned on the promise we would remain in the EEA, meaning visa-free right to travel and work across the EEA for all applicable citizens.
Secondly who said anything about racism?
Have a look on page 25 mate, where there's talk of Nazi's and a Farage pic with a Hitler tash.
We have just as many non-EU migrants
Over which, we already have full control of the numbers.
many EU immigrants actually leave at some point. Because there is no accurate reporting of this as we do not monitor those leaving
Agreed that this is a bad thing - so let's get full control of the numbers.
nor does there seem to be any appetite from any major party to put significant controls on immigration from the EU post Brexit to have any meaningful effect.
Because right now it's "the truth that dare not speak it's name", but after Brexit this will change (IMO).
Furthermore, let us not forget the Official Leave campaign specifically campaigned on the promise we would remain in the EEA, meaning visa-free right to travel and work across the EEA for all applicable citizens.
Yep, there was a lot of rubbish talked by both sides in the campaign, but the current PM has made it very clear that this will not be the case.1 -
Willie Wordsworth!Chippycafc said:
Careful with typos, you will have weird willie wordsworth on your back.Daarrzettbum said:Oops bit of a typo (predictive text) meant to say/read "and let us trade"
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No, not having this. The Leave campaign were overwhelming the source of false statements made during the referendum. This argument that 'both sides were as bad as each other' is utter shit. Even the leaders of the Leave campaign admitted afterwards that they would not won if they hadn't been able to tell the lies they did, which they would not have been able to do if the referendum had been fought under normal democratic rules as general elections are fought under.Valiantphil said:Yep, there was a lot of rubbish talked by both sides in the campaign, but the current PM has made it very clear that this will not be the case.
As for May proceeding towards a UK outside the EEA, well she simply has no mandate to do this.5 -
I don't know if anyone has it, but I'd like to see a comparative of the lies and untruths told be each side. I've heard many times from pro-Brexit people that both sides were just as culpable. I've no doubt that there were untruths from members of the remain camp; I've not seen a politician yet who didn't want to spin a few facts in their favour. But the magnitude and gravity of the lies told by people in the leave camp was quite simply breathtaking. From 30 years of wholly unsubstantiated dripfed redtop horror stories to false EEA claims to parading around the country in a bus with fake millions etched on the side. Did the remain side really say or do anything remotely equivalent?Valiantphil said:...Yep, there was a lot of rubbish talked by both sides in the campaign, but the current PM has made it very clear that this will not be the case.
It's becoming very noticeable, how Brexiteers are increasingly keen on the democracy mantra. I suppose that as their arguments about the benefits of leaving are steadily eroding, there's very little else for them to try and hang their hat on. But honesty is a pre-requisite of democracy. Giving people a vote and then lying to them about what they are voting for is not democratic. It is shameful manipulation. It's what you might have expected from the former soviet union or some tinpot dictatorship in the sort country that Ross Kemp might visit.
We were lied to. Each and every one of us. That is not democracy, it is a national disgrace. And if we can expect more of the same (after all there were no official sanctions or censure for any of the liars who led us down the garden path) with our new found 'sovereignty' (ha ha), it seems that we will be indefinitely entering a period of democratic paucity that's been unseen in this country for decades.14 -
This is a half-decent stab http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/eu-referendum-claims-won-brexit-fact-checked/Stig said:
I don't know if anyone has it, but I'd like to see a comparative of the lies and untruths told be each side.Valiantphil said:...Yep, there was a lot of rubbish talked by both sides in the campaign, but the current PM has made it very clear that this will not be the case.
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You do make some good points sometimes, but you're an absolute moron if you actually believe the crap you just typed is true.Fiiish said:
No, not having this. The Leave campaign were overwhelming the source of false statements made during the referendum. This argument that 'both sides were as bad as each other' is utter shit.Valiantphil said:Yep, there was a lot of rubbish talked by both sides in the campaign, but the current PM has made it very clear that this will not be the case.
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1. Cameron nor Osborne were not part of any official Remain campaign.Valiantphil said:
2. Could you please find the exact quote that states Cameron uses the words World War 3 or Osborne said immediate economic meltdown?3 -
OK. What were the lies told by the Remain campaign? Cite your sources. I'll be waiting.cafcpolo said:
You do make some good points sometimes, but you're an absolute moron if you actually believe the crap you just typed is true.Fiiish said:
No, not having this. The Leave campaign were overwhelming the source of false statements made during the referendum. This argument that 'both sides were as bad as each other' is utter shit.Valiantphil said:Yep, there was a lot of rubbish talked by both sides in the campaign, but the current PM has made it very clear that this will not be the case.
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I believe it because it is true. Feel free to present some evidence that the Remain campaign was just as bad as the Leave campaign. In the meantime save calling others morons because it is not really called for, is it?cafcpolo said:
You do make some good points sometimes, but you're an absolute moron if you actually believe the crap you just typed is true.Fiiish said:
No, not having this. The Leave campaign were overwhelming the source of false statements made during the referendum. This argument that 'both sides were as bad as each other' is utter shit.Valiantphil said:Yep, there was a lot of rubbish talked by both sides in the campaign, but the current PM has made it very clear that this will not be the case.
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Wow even the Torygraph, on a handful of statements, has to rule the Leave campaign made more false statements. The only false statement from a Remainer was an obscure statement from Alan Johnson I doubt anyone remembers.McBobbin said:
This is a half-decent stab http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/eu-referendum-claims-won-brexit-fact-checked/Stig said:
I don't know if anyone has it, but I'd like to see a comparative of the lies and untruths told be each side.Valiantphil said:...Yep, there was a lot of rubbish talked by both sides in the campaign, but the current PM has made it very clear that this will not be the case.
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Absolutely none. Absolutely......can only think negatively. GSQ.0
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Man_About_Town said:
Absolutely none. Absolutely......can only think negatively. GSQ.
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So the lies Osborne told about an immediate recession and drops in house prices don’t count?Fiiish said:
Does that mean everything Farage said can be struck off the record too?2 -
On this thread alone I've said this 3 times, but here comes number 4. Cameron said when the referendum was called that he would trigger article 50 within days of the vote. Osbourne's predictions were based on that, and we will never know what might have happened. As we all know Cameron didn't trigger article 50, he quit instead, so any predictions made on the basis of what Cameron said he'd do are completely moot. Article 50 wasn't triggered the day after the vote.cafcpolo said:
So the lies Osborne told about an immediate recession and drops in house prices don’t count?Fiiish said:
Does that mean everything Farage said can be struck off the record too?
There is no equivelence between saying "the housing market could collapse if we vote out and trigger article 50 24 hours later", which could have happened, it was probably unlikely, but clearly not impossible, and saying "we'll spend the £350 million we'll save all on the NHS", which is a statement that has nothing that could ever be true in it. There was not £350 million to spend and it would have never all been spent on the NHS.
If at this stage you're trying to defend leave campaign lies by saying that Osbourne's warning over what might happen under a set of circumstances that never happened, then I don't know what to say to you, you're refusing to debate logically or rationally.8 -
So the triggering of article 50 was a lie as well?
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Still waiting for David Cameron's quote where he specifically mentions World War 3.0
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Cameron actually said “serried rows of white headstones” if Brexit occurred.Fiiish said:
1. Cameron nor Osborne were not part of any official Remain campaign.Valiantphil said:
2. Could you please find the exact quote that states Cameron uses the words World War 3 or Osborne said immediate economic meltdown?0 -
In what context?Addickted said:
Cameron actually said “serried rows of white headstones” if Brexit occurred.Fiiish said:
1. Cameron nor Osborne were not part of any official Remain campaign.Valiantphil said:
2. Could you please find the exact quote that states Cameron uses the words World War 3 or Osborne said immediate economic meltdown?0 -
"The serried rows of white headstones in lovingly tended Commonwealth war cemeteries stand as silent testament to the price this country has paid to help restore peace and order in Europe."4
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How about 950,00 people in the UK will lose their jobs by2020. However, in July the claimant count fell by 8,600 to 763,600, despite an expected rise of 9,500.Leuth said:
OK. What were the lies told by the Remain campaign? Cite your sources. I'll be waiting.cafcpolo said:
You do make some good points sometimes, but you're an absolute moron if you actually believe the crap you just typed is true.Fiiish said:
No, not having this. The Leave campaign were overwhelming the source of false statements made during the referendum. This argument that 'both sides were as bad as each other' is utter shit.Valiantphil said:Yep, there was a lot of rubbish talked by both sides in the campaign, but the current PM has made it very clear that this will not be the case.
How about leaving the EU would cost every household £4,300
How about leaving the EU would cause mortgage bills to rise - they've actually dropped, despite being at record lows.
All available from here http://www.strongerin.co.uk/get_the_facts#JGwECdVbe3eu5Cra.97
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But have we left the EU yet?Addickted said:
How about 950,00 people in the UK will lose their jobs by2020. However, in July the claimant count fell by 8,600 to 763,600, despite an expected rise of 9,500.Leuth said:
OK. What were the lies told by the Remain campaign? Cite your sources. I'll be waiting.cafcpolo said:
You do make some good points sometimes, but you're an absolute moron if you actually believe the crap you just typed is true.Fiiish said:
No, not having this. The Leave campaign were overwhelming the source of false statements made during the referendum. This argument that 'both sides were as bad as each other' is utter shit.Valiantphil said:Yep, there was a lot of rubbish talked by both sides in the campaign, but the current PM has made it very clear that this will not be the case.
How about leaving the EU would cost every household £4,300
How about leaving the EU would cause mortgage bills to rise - they've actually dropped, despite being at record lows.
All available from here http://www.strongerin.co.uk/get_the_facts#JGwECdVbe3eu5Cra.975 -
As has just been demonstrated, a barefaced lie. Another one.Addickted said:
Cameron actually said “serried rows of white headstones” if Brexit occurred.Fiiish said:
1. Cameron nor Osborne were not part of any official Remain campaign.Valiantphil said:
2. Could you please find the exact quote that states Cameron uses the words World War 3 or Osborne said immediate economic meltdown?
As for those Stronger In forecasts, well, sick of experts, aren't we?0 -
Even when pointed out to you, you fail to accept it. What the hell do you think it means?Leuth said:
In what context?Addickted said:
Cameron actually said “serried rows of white headstones” if Brexit occurred.Fiiish said:
1. Cameron nor Osborne were not part of any official Remain campaign.Valiantphil said:
2. Could you please find the exact quote that states Cameron uses the words World War 3 or Osborne said immediate economic meltdown?0 -
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The point regarding the campaign, and not fighting it again, is that leave won, so it it they that have to justify their lies not remain.
If remain had won they would have to justify their lies, but they didn't, so what they said in the campaign is irrelevant.
Leave won, so they are the ones to sort it all out...but it is becoming increasingly clear that they can't. It is a very rare leave poster on Charlton Life that can face up to the details when questioned, and the typical response is ofter one of vague abuse, moving responsibility for detail on to the politicians, hope for the best, wait and see, re visiting the campaign, or stalking off in a huff.
David Davis in the Tory party conference said 'I'm afraid ignoring the details of brexit won't cut it'. You can google his conference speech if you like and listen from five minutes in. The bitter irony is that nobody has put any detail to the EU, they constantly ask for them, the UK delaying tactic is to say 'hang on a minute we're going to check everything line by line'. Leaving aside my feeling that brexiters should have already checked line by line before the vote, and provided detailed solutions, even this line by line check isn't either happening or timely.
The simple reality is that leavers voted to leave, they won, but now don't have a clue what's happening.
No leave poster on here has suggested anything in detail regarding brexit that isn't deconstructed within a couple of posts, which probably explains their defensiveness, they are unable to sustain an argument, and they react badly because they may be ashamed of either how they were taken in, or their own ignorance.
The refrain regarding 'how dare you suggest leavers didn't know what they were voting for' is heard less and less because it is becoming truer and truer.
Leavers, rejoice, you won. get on with it.
All you have to do now is show us the road map, but unsurprisingly you can't. Which is why a no deal option is becoming more attractive. Not because the EU won't engage, but no deal means leavers won't have to trouble themselves in providing any answers.3 -
So is he suggesting there wouldn't be peace in Europe after Brexit - because that was my understanding along with a lot of other people.Leuth said:
As has just been demonstrated, a barefaced lie. Another one.Addickted said:
Cameron actually said “serried rows of white headstones” if Brexit occurred.Fiiish said:
1. Cameron nor Osborne were not part of any official Remain campaign.Valiantphil said:
2. Could you please find the exact quote that states Cameron uses the words World War 3 or Osborne said immediate economic meltdown?
As for those Stronger In forecasts, well, sick of experts, aren't we?
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OK, I'll retract if 950,00 UK workers lose their jobs in the next two years.Fiiish said:
But have we left the EU yet?Addickted said:
How about 950,00 people in the UK will lose their jobs by2020. However, in July the claimant count fell by 8,600 to 763,600, despite an expected rise of 9,500.Leuth said:
OK. What were the lies told by the Remain campaign? Cite your sources. I'll be waiting.cafcpolo said:
You do make some good points sometimes, but you're an absolute moron if you actually believe the crap you just typed is true.Fiiish said:
No, not having this. The Leave campaign were overwhelming the source of false statements made during the referendum. This argument that 'both sides were as bad as each other' is utter shit.Valiantphil said:Yep, there was a lot of rubbish talked by both sides in the campaign, but the current PM has made it very clear that this will not be the case.
How about leaving the EU would cost every household £4,300
How about leaving the EU would cause mortgage bills to rise - they've actually dropped, despite being at record lows.
All available from here http://www.strongerin.co.uk/get_the_facts#JGwECdVbe3eu5Cra.970 -
Followed byFiiish said:"The serried rows of white headstones in lovingly tended Commonwealth war cemeteries stand as silent testament to the price this country has paid to help restore peace and order in Europe."
"Can we be so sure that peace and stability on our continent are assured beyond any shadow of doubt? Is that a risk worth taking"?
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For what it is worth, what Cameron was saying is that the EU (and its predecessor organisations) has helped encourage/ensure peace in Europe - if you want to look it up, it was the major driver behind the formation of the European Coal and Steel Community.Addickted said:
So is he suggesting there wouldn't be peace in Europe after Brexit - because that was my understanding along with a lot of other people.Leuth said:
As has just been demonstrated, a barefaced lie. Another one.Addickted said:
Cameron actually said “serried rows of white headstones” if Brexit occurred.Fiiish said:
1. Cameron nor Osborne were not part of any official Remain campaign.Valiantphil said:
2. Could you please find the exact quote that states Cameron uses the words World War 3 or Osborne said immediate economic meltdown?
As for those Stronger In forecasts, well, sick of experts, aren't we?
In this, and in the way that it has encouraged democracy across Europe, the EU has been an unalloyed success.9
This discussion has been closed.
